[CaptainAhab]

Jenova Chen is assuming that something needs to be pretentious to be considered art.

[les papillons sexuels]

Lol Jenova really bugging people that much with his statements to the point where they are calling his games bad and him a half wit? Truly fascinating things at work here.

He's remade worm/snake 3 times with different skins and calls himself an artist. By that regard bungie became artists with gnop for remaking pong and spelling the name backwards.

[arbok26]

How is this news?

welcome to 5 years ago...

[herod]

PS3 owners more likely to be interested in bad games

Nailed it.

[staticneuron]

The latter requires the developer to include elements which evoke emotion and the former is created while trying to design a game which evoke an emotion. You are working in circles here and there is no difference in the net result. The creators of Steel Battalion wanted to make a game where the player feared death (fear, tension) and felt crushed they failed to eject (sadness, loss). To do so they added "elements" which put these plans into effect. The elements is what the player actually sees.

No. Again you are lost on the difference between the minute elements and overall design.
In terms of Steel battalion for an example, the save delete is an example of risk vs reward system that changes how a person plays the game. Sure it may evoke an emotional response but that doesn't mean that it was the MAIN reason for the element or function being there. Sort of like the death system in Dark and Demon souls. It simply changes a players approach to playing a game.

How does that differ from an art game that is trying to push a theme? Well when you find that many elements of the game are designed that way BECAUSE of the theme or idea they are presenting it changes things a bit.

I will use "Braid" as an example.


You are presented with a simple story of a guy trying to save a a princess from a monster. Each stage introduces a time manipulation element while giving piece of the story and by the time you reach the end you find out that YOU are the monster the princess is running from. The entire premise, mechanics, direction all point towards the central thematic element of a guy that has lost his love and is remorseful over it.


That is the difference between an element of game trying to evoke a specific emotion and the concept of an entire game designed around one.

I can use more but maybe I will explain it in the next section as well.

You seem to be missing that game mechanics are evoking emotions all the time. That's the only explanation for the silly "I'm an American" bit. Developers are putting mechanics into the game so players can experience feelings such as: curiosity, fear, tension, frustration, anticipation, triumphant, sadness, and overall "fun" (power). If they failed to make the player feel something, they would not be successful because players would forget about the game and move on. So naturally... everyone does this! Everyone designs a game to evoke an emotion (a "response", an "experience", etc). There are no true exceptions to this. Fighting game systems, kill streaks, leveling systems, etc etc all evoke emotion and exist for the purpose of making the overall game evoke an emotion.

Micro versus Macro. Again you don't seem to understand. Let me ask you this then. What is the main thematic core of Gears of War? Crysis 2? Street Fighter 4? KOFXIII?

What thematic element or emotion is it?

I think you would be stretching to try to narrow it down to one. Many of the mainstream games convey a hodgepodge of thematic elements and ideas to help push a story along. And most of the time the emotion they are trying to evoke is fleeting. Almost never do you see them rely on one element or emotion. No matter how many times this is repeated, you don't seem to get it. Art Games are normally influenced by a large part by VERY SPECIFIC ideas and themes. Most of the time they are very few in number.

Yes games are supposed to evoke emotion, but that doesn't change the fact that some are designed overall to push one idea/theme and because of that the "way" they try to evoke emotions are normally very different.

Sure games also use aesthetic themes to back this up and add to the mood. However it would be a complete failure of videogame criticism to be unable to see passed that. Which is what you are doing. (In fact thinking the developer has any say in how his game should be categorized or received is a complete failure to begin with.)

...... Is there really a trouble in comprehension here?

The label for Art Games are just the same. It takes in the developers point of view and purpose for creating the game to earn it that title. Everything else is an aside and doesn't really affect that title.

Meaning it is what it is and anyone's perception or reception of the title has nothing to do with the description of it.

FarCry 2 is a first person shooter, It doesn't matter if you like it, if you want to categorize or perceive it as an action game. it was designed as a shooter.
The whole "american" analogy you didn't seem to get is addressing the fact that the criteria being used to assess these terms are not really being discussed here. Everyone who dislikes this is talking about various other topics (or being snarky cuz their cool) other than what the devs intended. And that is where you have lost the discussion.

How is Limbo or Braid not also simply "highly stylized"? What does it matter if the text in the game tells you the goals are concrete when they could very well be dealing with the same themes ("loss", blah blah blah)?

Central Conceit /= Art direction

I am just pointing out that none of the art direction it is abstract just highly stylized. Imo, only a few games I would consider falling into that abstract category in terms of direction.

I'm thinking too much?

Over thinking the terms? Just a bit, imo.

[danwarb]

How is this news? welcome to 5 years ago...

What is this news? Most PS3 and 360 games are about shooting/slashing or sports. If there were any difference in sales between the two platforms for the digital games he's talking about, he'd have a point as far as the digital games he's talking about go.

[dock]

Quirky or gloomy 2D platformers aren't really that accessible in a broader sense of art, because stay so comfortably in the mold that gamers are used to.

And if your game is about a man with a gun, it's already a bit juvenile.

[Valnen]

Nailed it.

More like trolled it.

[szaromir]

Venture Beat: Are you a tool?
Jenova Chen: Yes, I am a tool.

[zoukka]

Ah it was written by Sony employees and/or exclusive developers. Not by neutral observers.

[ijed]

Making games is an artform - but it's mostly a commercial artform - like Hollywood movies.

I think arthouse would be a better term to use - where a developer has stuck to his vision, regardless of what sells or is popular, in order to have a finished product that that is the same as what was originally intended.

I think Miyazaki's vision of the Souls series is a perfect example of this - Suda51 also

[Boss Doggie]

The pretentiousness is overflowing!

[odd_morsel]

I thought this would be some kind of survey or article, not a developer just expressing his thoughts. Clearly the bait is working though

[squidyj]

Jenova Chen is assuming that something needs to be pretentious to be considered art.

don't ever use the word pretentious, just don't do it, 99 times out of a hundred the person using the word pretentious is just being an idiot.

[Toxa]

PC is the champion of adult gaming

what is adult gaming ? killing people ?

[zoukka]

what is adult gaming ? killing people ?

Age rating can be one measure.
Themes explored another one.

[MrCookiepants]

Did he lie, though? Nope.

[zoukka]

Did he lie, though? Nope.

Yes he actually did. Without any statistics he just plain lied for benefits. Doesn't make his games any worse, but makes the man himself seem a bit dickish.

[shouamabane]

What Chen is saying is true. Sony has worked toward that market for years. It's obvious.

[MrCookiepants]

Yes he actually did. Without any statistics he just plain lied for benefits. Doesn't make his games any worse, but makes the man himself seem a bit dickish.

I'm sure he knows how much Journey is selling. He seems pretty happy about it. He doesn't believe it would have found as large an audience on another platform. It's hard to disagree.

[zoukka]

What Chen is saying is true. Sony has worked toward that market for years. It's obvious.

If it would be obvious, there would be no debate.

I'm sure he knows how much Journey is selling. He seems pretty happy about it. He doesn't believe it would have found as large an audience on another platform. It's hard to disagree.

No it is not hard to disagree at all. Look at Braid. Look at Limbo. Journey isn't a challenging game by any means. It is masterfully crafted and the gameplay is suberb. If the opposite was true, then Chen would have a point MAYBE. As in a bad game selling just because it's "artsy" or intelligent in some levels.

Your resoning contains no logic.

[Kusagari]

It's true that Sony caters more toward artistic games. They go out of their way to have studios make games like Journey and Flower.

However, saying PS3 owners are more likely to be interested in artistic games is pure BS. Every 'artistic' game on 360 has surpassed expectations in sales, especially Limbo.

[namDa65]

You would hope that following a meaningless statement like this was something substantial to give it meaning. Nope. I went out of my way to lambast the crap your post is made up of. I at least expect you to directly tackle that. You would have me believe themes are unique or only worth noting for this arbitrarily defined group called artistic games? Do you have any idea how easy it would be to list a bunch of loosely affiliated words for just about any videogame? Here, let me fuck with you: Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3's MULTIPLAYER plays with anonymity, friendship, empowerment, and homophobia.

Wow you really are a lost cause. I am giving you hints to a larger thematic message, but of course someone as close minded as you would not get it. Also, your analogy with cod is weak. I like the homophobia part though :).

I'm out of this thread. No point in arguing with a man with such malicious intent.

[Replicant]

It is true that Sony, more than MS or Nintendo, is more interested in experimental titles. Their willingness to fund expensive but unusual titles is one of the reasons I stick with them.

While it can't be said that PS3 users are more interested in this kind of games, one would think that "Birds of a feather flock together". It's very likely that due to Sony's willingness to fund such games, those who like such games would gravitate more towards PS3 instead of other consoles.

[Feindflug]

In a way it makes sense since the PS3 hasn't broken into the younger demographics like the Wii or 360. However at the same time, I can't really think of how the system really has many more artsy titles. Most games of this type are downloadable and both systems have their share of artistic titles IMO.

I don't know about the US market but here in Europe PS3 has broken into younger & casual demographics for some time now and is the obvious option for the people interested in Pro Evolution Soccer/FIFA,CoD & NFS.

[SmokyDave]

If it would be obvious, there would be no debate.

I sincerely doubt that.

[zoukka]

I sincerely doubt that.

Well if we had measurable information, the debate would be about "why", not "what if".

[astroturfing]

i'll wait to see how The Last Guardian does. if it bombs, i will forever curse the PS3 fanbase.

[Combichristoffersen]

Tonight I shall be enjoying a glass of expensive red wine while playing Journey and laughing at the Wii/360 peasants and the juvenile trash they peddle as entertainment. Halo, Mario, Gears and Zelda? No self-respecting adult would touch anything like that. They are the video game equivalents of bad saturday morning cartoons. They are the Street Sharks of video games.

In reality I will be drinking a glass of cold water and blowing up shit in Just Cause 2 because fuck yeah, explosions!

[ShinUltramanJ]

This does not bode well for him branching out to other platforms now that his 3 game contract with Sony is over.

Microsoft is more interested in apps than games right now, so no biggie.

[madmackem]

I think thats slightly true, i have always thought of sony being the more out there take a risk on different games since the ps2 days. Thats why i still buy there consoles i feel there is more chance of say a lesser known japanese title making it over here or the fact games are region free helps too.

[Xenon]

Flower is a game?

[truly101]

Artsy indie platformers Braid, Limbo, and Fez did pretty well.

Yep, those games got a lot of positive press and probably did better on the 360 than the PS3 since they released there first (will there be a PS3 version of Fez?) I would imagine there are plenty of people on the 360 who are looking for more than just shooters.

[Combichristoffersen]

Yep, those games got a lot of positive press and probably did better on the 360 than the PS3 since they released there first (will there be a PS3 version of Fez?) I would imagine there are plenty of people on the 360 who are looking for more than just shooters.

Fez was published by Microsoft IIRC, so.. most likely not.

[snap0212]

Flower is a game?

Why not post a compelling argument as to why it's not a game?

I would imagine there are plenty of people on the 360 who are looking for more than just shooters.

Definitely. Microsoft is just not as willing to invest money into making games like Flower or Journey so they don't appear on the platform. Sony was smart about securing these three games (well, except flow) but that does absolutely not mean that Xbox players wouldn't enjoy them just as much.

I wish Microsoft would use some of their money to fund games that are not just platformers with a twist. I used to look forward to them but I'm kind of fed up with indie puzzle platformers in general. They're probably still good games but I just can't enjoy them anymore. Just like I can't enjoy modern warfare-like FPS games anymore even though they're probably still good games. I'd love Microsoft to have some kind of Indie Fund where they just support devs who are trying something completely different.

Fez was published by Microsoft IIRC, so.. most likely not.

Limbo was published by Microsoft as well and appeared on PSN. There's probably some kind of exclusivity but I don't think a PS3 release is unlikely.

[truly101]

For full disclosure I own Limbo Braid and Fez on the 360 simply because they came out on the 360 first. Flower and Journey are PS3 exclusive so I have them on the PS3.

I guess the only point you could argue are Sony's big PSN releases tend to be either the PixelJunk or ThatGameCompany games. Not sure it makes the PS3 more artist friendly.

[Combichristoffersen]

Limbo was published by Microsoft as well and appeared on PSN. There's probably some kind of exclusivity but I don't think a PS3 release is unlikely.

Ah, I see. I guess it could be a 1-year timed exclusive sort of deal for Fez then.

[snoopeasystreet]

This is probably a really dumb sentence and I'm not really sure how to articulate it that well but in terms of downloadable exclusives, PSN always comes off as more "artsy" while XBLA feels more indie and I'm not sure why.

I wonder if it has something to do with the button icons. Playstation's are much more muted and elegant looking compared to the 360's primary coloured circles.

[CaptainAhab]

don't ever use the word pretentious, just don't do it, 99 times out of a hundred the person using the word pretentious is just being an idiot.

Pretentious: Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.

Sounds like a pretty good description of Heavy Rain to me.

[TheOddOne]

Microsoft is more interested in apps than games right now, so no biggie.

I guess you still spewing stick like this without visting the XBLA thread.

[MrCookiepants]

No it is not hard to disagree at all. Look at Braid. Look at Limbo. Journey isn't a challenging game by any means. It is masterfully crafted and the gameplay is suberb. If the opposite was true, then Chen would have a point MAYBE. As in a bad game selling just because it's "artsy" or intelligent in some levels. Your resoning contains no logic.

What about those? Journey has obviously been more successful. But it's much better too, so that might have something to do with it.

[Fancy Corndog]

Jenova Chen: PS3 owners are more likely to be interested in artistic games.

Non-PS3 Owner: I find that offensive!
Non-PS3 Owner: More like bad games amirite?
Non-PS3 Owner: What is "art" though, it's not even a "thing" you can't prove it.
Non-PS3 Owner: Journey is just a stripped down version of a real game like Gears of War!
Non-PS3 Owner: Define "what" "artistic" game "means" there's really no "such" thing.
Non-PS3 Owner: Flower sucks!

Jenova Chen: PS3 owners are more likely to be interested in artistic games.


It was just a developer being a developer, but then some of you decided to make his point for him.

[TheOddOne]

Jenova Chen: PS3 owners are more likely to be interested in artistic games. Non-PS3 Owner: I find that offensive! Non-PS3 Owner: More like bad games amirite? Non-PS3 Owner: What is "art" though, it's not even a "thing" you can't prove it. Non-PS3 Owner: Journey is just a stripped down version of a real game like Gears of War! Non-PS3 Owner: Define "what" "artistic" game "means" there's really no "such" thing. Non-PS3 Owner: Flower sucks!

So what about people who do own a PS3 and are critical of his games? Boxing people up really doesn't help any cause.

[theBishop]

So what about people who do own a PS3 and are critical of his games? Boxing people up really doesn't help any cause.

"Artistic" != "Good"

You can have a shitty 'artistic' game and a spectacular commercial game. This misunderstanding is why the thread has so much foul-crying.

[Fancy Corndog]

So what about people who do own a PS3 and are critical of his games? Boxing people up really doesn't help any cause.

Just because something is artistic doesn't mean you have to like it. For people to sit in here and argue for days about what art is, and say things like Madden NFL 2006 is equally as artistic as Flower because "you" can't really "prove" "otherwise" is just ridiculously dense and making him look right.

[snap0212]

So what about people who do own a PS3 and are critical of his games? Boxing people up really doesn't help any cause.

Well, there's being critical and there's being not open to any kind of discussion and not willing to make a real argument. Just like there's a difference between 'a game is shit' and 'I don't like it'.

Comments along the lines of 'Flower isn't even a game' and 'more like shit games' add absolutely nothing to the discussion.

[MTMBStudios]

Just because something is artistic doesn't mean you have to like it. For people to sit in here and argue for days about what art is, and say things like Madden NFL 2006 is equally as artistic as Flower because "you" can't really "prove" "otherwise" is just ridiculously dense and making him look right.

Well I have about ~80 PS3 retail games and plenty of PSN games. Now prove to me why Flower is more artistic than Madden NFL 2006 with zero vagueness (hint: if your using words like "it inspires emotion" or "it plays with the theme of _" you are doing it wrong).

[Fancy Corndog]

Well I have about ~80 PS3 retail games and plenty of PSN games. Now prove to me why Flower is more artistic than Madden NFL 2006 with zero vagueness.

I can not prove to you scientifically why one thing is more artistic than another thing.

Do you honestly believe that Flower is not more artistic than Madden NFL 2006, or are you just using ambiguity to protect a point?

[Tain]

Jenova Chen: PS3 owners are more likely to be interested in artistic games. Non-PS3 Owner: I find that offensive! Non-PS3 Owner: More like bad games amirite? Non-PS3 Owner: What is "art" though, it's not even a "thing" you can't prove it. Non-PS3 Owner: Journey is just a stripped down version of a real game like Gears of War! Non-PS3 Owner: Define "what" "artistic" game "means" there's really no "such" thing. Non-PS3 Owner: Flower sucks! Jenova Chen: PS3 owners are more likely to be interested in artistic games. It was just a developer being a developer, but then some of you decided to make his point for him.

Just because something is artistic doesn't mean you have to like it. For people to sit in here and argue for days about what art is, and say things like Madden NFL 2006 is equally as artistic as Flower because "you" can't really "prove" "otherwise" is just ridiculously dense and making him look right.

You're both assuming that nobody critical of his statement owns a PS3 and making some huge misunderstandings about other's arguments in this thread.

Just make some kind of case with this ridiculous Madden example that you've chosen, dude. Just offer something more clear than "it's self-evident, duh".

[TheOddOne]

You're both assuming that nobody critical of his statement owns a PS3 and making some huge misunderstandings about other's arguments in this thread. Just make an argument, dude. Just offer something more clear than "it's self-evident, duh".

Thank you.