[shinobi602]

What's your point?

Apparently two wrongs make a right.

I learned something new today.

[scorcho]

Nety's taking advantage of his new mandate and is now laying the groundwork and the justification for any escalation into Lebanon. I wonder if he has the balls to strike before the US elections and attempt to marshal US public opinion towards a Republican party that would (presumably) guarantee more material support post-strike.

I will never stop cringing when I hear an American politician refer to Israel as our (America's) strongest or most important ally.

[Instigator]

I might be off here, but you seem to have some sort of beef with my support for the existence of Israel.

Toying with you.

But you do remind me of a milder version of this:

For example, what if there were an outbreak of antisemitism in our country of residence and we had nowhere else to go, what do we do then? Stay here and wait for our death, or escape to a country full of our own kinsmen that won't shut the door in our faces (like America did during the Holocaust)? At least with Israel, we have something to fall back on, and I don't think that should be taken from us.

Oh we go with hypotheticals now.

What if neighboring Arab states join forces (again) and attack Israel? Israel nearly lost the last time in 1973. What if Iran goes nuclear and defies logic and launch a nuclear assault on the Jewish state? Where do you go then? Do you really think it was wise to move a population to a small territory in the most volative region on Earth and with neighbors who don't want you there?

The Jewish diaspora lasted longer than the state of Israel, kingdom of Israel, of Judea or the land of Canaaan combined and it's a lot of harder to eradicate a people spread out over many continents than simply hitting a small country.

The state of Israel is not needed.

[SleazyC]

What's your point?

My point is that neither side is in the right here. Specifically I was showing you that your argument that Hizbollah hides behind civilians is no better than the one I provided.

[Cromat]

Take the Kurds, for example. They're a large minority in 3 or 4 countries, they have a right to exist as a people, but an actual Kurdistan would be a clusterfuck for the region. You could still say Kurdistan as a right to exist as a country if it ever came to be, but I don't think it's a necessity. The world over, you have thousands of different ethnic/religious minorities and technically, they all have a right to exist, but I don't think you need to make a country for every single one of them. Israel is there already so it's a matter of acknowledging a reality, but even if you argue Israel has a right to exist, I don't think it absolutely needs to exist. The world would probably be better off without it.

The creation of the United States involved the biggest genocide in history which resulted in the extinction of Native American population and culture. So arguably the world would be better off without it.

What's your point?
Only with Israel there's this obsession with how it came to be. It exists and it's here to stay. You can criticize the policies but going over how Israel was founded again and again is useless and quite frankly, singles Israel out of any other nation in the world.

[Instigator]

The creation of the United States involved the biggest genocide in history which resulted in the extinction of Native American population and culture. So arguably the world would be better off without it.

And?

This is a topic about Israel so the discussion is about Israel. If you want to make a topic about how America shouldn't exist, be my guest. I promise to take part in it. It would be fun.

[jorma]

The creation of the United States involved the biggest genocide in history which resulted in the extinction of Native American population and culture. So arguably the world would be better off without it. What's your point? Only with Israel there's this obsession with how it came to be. It exists and it's here to stay. You can criticize the policies but going over how Israel was founded again and again is useless and quite frankly, singles Israel out of any other nation in the world.

Yeah but South Africa still exists; only now as an ex apartheid nation. How and on what principles the country was founded is now largely irrelevant. Israel can do the same. There is no reason a future prime minister of Israel cannot be palestinian born.

[phosphor112]

Meh. For those who don't know, the chances of an Israeli strike on Iran are lower after Netanyahu added the centrist Kadima party to his coalition yesterday. Mofaz, the leader of Kadima, is firmly against an attack on Iran and is for reaching an agreement with the Palestinians and even negotiating with Hamas. I take it as proof that Netanyahu's threats are merely posturing to make the West take a harder stance towards Iran. When Israel wants to bomb someone it doesn't sit around and throw threats for five years, it just does it.

Well Mofaz was born in Iran, but it doesn't mean they won't attack. This coalition basically puts Netanyahu in a position to do what he wants. This is just a tactic to "rally the troops." Show unity. Mofaz will stay vocal about the attack on Iran and say that we need international backing, but do you really think that will matter to Netanyahu? Kadima had NO chance of winning, and this coalition really isn't putting them in any higher relevance.

What's your point? *snip*

One picture looks like troops putting a child in danger to protect themselves.

The other looks like a fighter in front of a bunch of curious (and stupid) children. Either that or they just huddle up around him so they CAN get shot... though I doubt that, I think they are just stupid and want to see someone shoot.

Either way, kids are in danger, but the intentions look different.

By the way, I'm not saying people aren't used as human shields, just this picture doesn't really show it.

[Cromat]

Yes. And? This is a topic about Israel so the discussion is about Israel. If you want to make a topic about how America shouldn't exist, be my guest. It would be fun.

This a topic about Israel warning Hizbullah not to get involved in a potential war with Iran (assuming that a single anonymous source is a good indication of Israel's plans).
And yet here we are discussing (again) if Israel should or shouldn't exist.

It's the same in every Israel thread. And you can bet it wouldn't have happened in a thread about the US war in Afghanistan.

[Kinyou]

I like how everyone is "BAD ISAREL HOW DARE YOU RETALIATE IF HEZBOLLAH ATTACKS YOU", but no one gives a shit that Hezbollah uses civilians to hide behind

They're talking about scorched earth here "decades to rebuild." That sounds to me like if they'd just bomb everything, military target or not.

[Instigator]

This a topic about Israel warning Hizbullah not to get involved in a potential war with Iran (assuming that a single anonymous source is a good indication of Israel's plans). And yet here we are discussing (again) if Israel should or shouldn't exist. It's the same in every Israel thread. And you can bet it wouldn't have happened in a thread about the US war in Afghanistan.

Just frame/title it the right way and America's very existence could be discussed.

I would start the discussion myself, but my thread creating priviledges have been revoked years ago.

[phosphor112]

Some people are getting to hostile toward one another. Let's keep it chill guys.

[Hix]

They're talking about scorched earth here "decades to rebuild." That sounds to me like if they'd just bomb everything, military target or not.

That sounds to me like they are threatening action, if attacked. Don't attack Israel, don't risk Israel ensuring you can never do it again.

I would start the discussion myself, but my thread creating priviledges have been revoked years ago.

Probably for the best.

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Just frame/title it the right way and America's very existence could be discussed. I would start the discussion myself, but my thread creating priviledges have been revoked years ago.

Instigator
Member
(Today, 11:07 PM)

[Instigator]

I got lost and found myself in the gaming sub forum. They have foreign modding practices over there. That's how this tragedy happened.

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I was thinking of starting a thread about the genetic relationship between Palestinians and Israelis but I didn't really know where to go with it. It's kind of interesting but I don't know how relevant to anything it is. Seems to be the case that the Palestinians are a mix of ethnic Jews who converted to Christianity/Islam with neighboring populations of Arabs. The people we call Jews today are the ones who fled to Europe and mingled with their respective native European populations.

There is undeniably a cultural divide, but the two probably share more than most people realize.

[Instigator]

It was discussed a bit in another Israel topic from a few days ago.

[Cromat]

I was thinking of starting a thread about the genetic relationship between Palestinians and Israelis but I didn't really know where to go with it. It's kind of interesting but I don't know how relevant to anything it is. Seems to be the case that the Palestinians are a mix of ethnic Jews who converted to Christianity/Islam with neighboring populations of Arabs. The people we call Jews today are the ones who fled to Europe and mingled with their respective native European populations. There is undeniably a cultural divide, but the two probably share more than most people realize.

Half of Israel's Jewish population came from Arab countries. The oldest Jewish diasporas are the ones in Babylon (Iraq), Persia (Iran) and Egypt.

[RawPower]

OK I'll admit, that comic made me chuckle. However, I don't think I'm like that at all. Just because my views on Israel might fall outside the typical liberal sphere isn't a reason to think I would blind myself to reality to support my beliefs.

I was thinking of starting a thread about the genetic relationship between Palestinians and Israelis but I didn't really know where to go with it. It's kind of interesting but I don't know how relevant to anything it is. Seems to be the case that the Palestinians are a mix of ethnic Jews who converted to Christianity/Islam with neighboring populations of Arabs. The people we call Jews today are the ones who fled to Europe and mingled with their respective native European populations. There is undeniably a cultural divide, but the two probably share more than most people realize.

This is what I've been saying for quite a while, actually. This is why I'm not particularly fond of the "Native American" analogy.

[Instigator]

Half of Israel's Jewish population came from Arab countries. The oldest Jewish diasporas are the ones in Babylon (Iraq), Persia (Iran) and Egypt.

And the most famous member from that group is this guy:



Not the smartest guy around, but certainly a true hero in my book. Israel would be a very different country with more people like him around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

"I am neither a traitor nor a spy, I only wanted the world to know what was happening." He also said, "We don't need a Jewish state. There needs to be a Palestinian state. Jews can, and have lived anywhere, so a Jewish State is not necessary."

[phosphor112]

Vanunu =[.

Isn't he still in jail?

Dude outed Israel's nuclear program.

...went to jail for it.

[Instigator]

Vanunu =[. Isn't he still in jail? Dude outed Israel's nuclear program. ...went to jail for it.

Released. But he can't leave the country. Or talk to journalists. you know, the usual BS.

A true friend of world peace nonetheless.

[Jason's Ultimatum]

As someone of Jewish descent, I've always been a supporter of Israel and its right to exist. The situation is far more complicated than "Israel BAD, Palestinians good", and I get rather sick of people calling me heartless or fascist because of it. I honestly wish people would examine both sides of the issue instead of condemning one side and aligning themselves with the other. Just my general feelings. Not directed at anyone in here.

Israel doesn't exist as a state.

[Josh7289]

Israel disgusts me.

But so do most states in the region.

[phosphor112]

Released. But he can't leave the country. Or talk to journalists. you know, the usual BS. A true friend of world peace nonetheless.

An imprisoned man regardless.

[Instigator]

An imprisoned man regardless.

So was Nelson Mandela and Vaclav Havel.

[RawPower]

Toying with you. But you do remind me of a milder version of this:

Now that I think about it, you're being really unfair here. So because I think Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state, that makes me a neocon on the same level as Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter? Wonderful.

[Instigator]

But you do remind me of a milder version of this:

a milder version of this:

a milder version

milder

:)

[RawPower]

Israel doesn't exist as a state.

What are you talking about?

And the most famous member from that group is this guy: Not the smartest guy around, but certainly a true hero in my book. Israel would be a very different country with more people like him around. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

His argument here is flawed. If there doesn't need to be a Jewish state, why does there need to be a Palestinian one? Jews have settled all over the world. Palestinians can do the same, so his point is lost on me.

[Jason's Ultimatum]

What are you talking about?

Oppression of people and evolving borders to name a few according IR theory doesn't make Israel a state. Same goes for pretty much every other nation state in the country. Mexico doesn't even accept the U.S. as a right to exist.

[RawPower]

Oppression of people and evolving borders to name a few according IR theory doesn't make Israel a state. Same goes for pretty much every other nation state in the country. Mexico doesn't even accept the U.S. as a right to exist.

Are you sure you worded that correctly? I don't get it.

Anyway, if oppression of people means Israel isn't a state, then most Middle Eastern nations aren't states either so I don't see the point of bringing it up.

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I meant world.

[Clipjoint]

I love the people who say Hezbollah hides behind civilians, as if they're a conventional military force. They are the civilians. They're bakers and farmers and barbers who took up arms against an occupying army. Israel created Hezbollah. Their greatest strength is that they're fighting for their own villages and families. Of course Israel would defeat any conventional army in the region, but it's going to take more guts than they have to extinguish the desire to resist and be free. To do that Israel would really have to carpet bomb and wipe out all of the civilian population of Lebanon.

Consider if an invading army came into your home. Would you surrender, or would you resist?

[RawPower]

I love the people who say Hezbollah hides behind civilians, as if they're a conventional military force. They are the civilians. They're bakers and farmers and barbers who took up arms against an occupying army. Israel created Hezbollah. Their greatest strength is that they're fighting for their own villages and families. Of course Israel would defeat any conventional army in the region, but it's going to take more guts than they have to extinguish the desire to resist and be free. To do that Israel would really have to carpet bomb and wipe out all of the civilian population of Lebanon. Consider if an invading army came into your home. Would you surrender, or would you resist?

Defending your country is one thing, wishing to see a neighboring country completely wiped off the map is another. I think that so long as Israel leaves them alone, then they should leave Israel alone. However, neither of those things look particularly likely.

[Clipjoint]

Defending your country is one thing, wishing to see a neighboring country completely wiped off the map is another.

They reject the creation of the state of Israel, as do I. But they've said openly, that if the Palestinians reach a peace agreement with Israel, Hezbollah would abide by it. The only country talking about violently wiping another country off the map is Israel:

Any Hizbollah retaliation to an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities would prompt Israel to launch a war in Lebanon so ferocious that it would take a decade to rebuild the villages it destroys, a senior Israeli military officer has warned.

"The Lebanese government has to take this into consideration. Many of the villages in southern Lebanon will be destroyed. Unfortunate, but we will have no other solution. The day after (we attack) the village will be something that it will take 10 years to rebuild."

Of course, they already have experience wiping a country off a map. It's happening on a daily basis.

[RawPower]

They reject the creation of the state of Israel, as do I.

This is something we will never agree on, as the other thread has shown. It's probably best that we realize this now and agree to disagree.

But they've said openly, that if the Palestinians reach a peace agreement with Israel, Hezbollah would abide by it.

Link me to where it says this, please.

The only country talking about violently wiping another country off the map is Israel: Of course, they already have experience wiping a country off a map. It's happening on a daily basis.

Israel's expansion needs to be stopped. That much we agree on.

[Clipjoint]

This is something we will never agree on, as the other thread has shown. It's probably best that we realize this now and agree to disagree. Link me to where it says this, please. Indeed, and Israel's expansion needs to be stopped.

Most recently, watch Nasrallah's interview with Julian Assange.

[Ydahs]

Most recently, watch Nasrallah's interview with Julian Assange.

Whaaat? This took place?

*googles*

Why is this the first time I'm hearing about this?

EDIT: watched the interview. Very insightful with some good points made.

[Kad5]

All I have to say in regards to discussion is that I am a firm believer in Nations having self-determination.

That includes the Jewish and Palestinian Nations.

[RawPower]

Well, I gave it a shot. Hopefully, it will open up a few minds.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473594

[Al-ibn Kermit]

If a Kurdistan were created, I would not object to it. Whether or not it will ever happen is another story, but I'd support their sovereignty if it ever did. However, a nation for Jews did happen, and dismantling it will only create a slew of new problems. I might be off here, but you seem to have some sort of beef with my support for the existence of Israel. Considering the factors that led to its creation (i.e. centuries of persecution and a desire for independence) and that it is a place that was created as a means to protect Jews and give us a sense of independence and dignity, it's hardly unreasonable for a Jew such as myself to want it to exist and thrive. For example, what if there were an outbreak of antisemitism in our country of residence and we had nowhere else to go, what do we do then? Stay here and wait for our death, or escape to a country full of our own kinsmen that won't shut the door in our faces (like America did during the Holocaust)? At least with Israel, we have something to fall back on, and I don't think that should be taken from us.

It would have made more sense to slice off a piece of Germany or something. More valuable real estate too.

[nib95]

I love the people who say Hezbollah hides behind civilians, as if they're a conventional military force. They are the civilians. They're bakers and farmers and barbers who took up arms against an occupying army. Israel created Hezbollah. Their greatest strength is that they're fighting for their own villages and families. Of course Israel would defeat any conventional army in the region, but it's going to take more guts than they have to extinguish the desire to resist and be free. To do that Israel would really have to carpet bomb and wipe out all of the civilian population of Lebanon. Consider if an invading army came into your home. Would you surrender, or would you resist?

Obviously we'd resist. And do everything in our power to resist and to defend or to attack. The enemy would call us terrorists for it though lol. Way of the world, always has been. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

[Instigator]

His argument here is flawed. If there doesn't need to be a Jewish state, why does there need to be a Palestinian one? Jews have settled all over the world. Palestinians can do the same, so his point is lost on me.

Or... If the Palestinians don't need a state, why do Jews need one? Am i right?

His argument is still pretty simple. Jews have lived scattered all around the world for 2 thousands years, they can continue to do so. He doesn't believe the Palestinians need to give up to make room for a group of foreigners.

If you want to point a real hole in his argument, why was he living in Israel in the first place? I figure life in his native Marocco became too hard for him and had to pack his bags like many Jews. Not sure if he made that decision or his parents did it for him, but once he was an adult, why remain in a country you don't think should exist? Maybe he had a change of heart later on, I don't know, but obviously now, Israel won't let him leave. Point is moot.

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Defending your country is one thing, wishing to see a neighboring country completely wiped off the map is another.

I know it's oft repeated, but no one actually ever said this. The language it was claimed to have originated from (Farsi) doesn't even contain the idiom "wipe off the map" (per Juan Cole). The real quote was something like "the Israeli regime will vanish from the pages of time". As Clipjoint noted, it was the equivalent of endorsing One State. Or "regime change" if you like

MEMRI (or somebody) got creative and came up with the infamous 'map' translation. And now literally every American and European news organization repeats this line every time there's a story about Israel. "Wipe off the map", language emotionally locked and loaded.

[jorma]

What are you talking about? His argument here is flawed. If there doesn't need to be a Jewish state, why does there need to be a Palestinian one? Jews have settled all over the world. Palestinians can do the same, so his point is lost on me.

Because everyone living in palestine would be palestinian, including the jews. I assume it's meant as a nationality and not a religious/cultural thing.

[Instigator]

It would have made more sense to slice off a piece of Germany or something. More valuable real estate too.

Yep.

While I don't think an artificial state needed to be created for that purpose, practically, it would have made more sense than in Palestine. It would be double the pain in the butt for Germany, like another Poland, so there would be benefits for the rest of the world.

Though I strongly doubt as many Jews would have moved there since it wouldn't be the Israel they really wanted. You'd still have hundreds of thousands of Jews that already had emigrated to Palestine before the end of WWII. Without the cover of a UN mandate and with fewer Jewish immigrants, it would have been harder for zionists to carry out their plan. It's possible they could have taken over the territory as the Brits were driven out, but this weaker Israel wouldn't stand as much of a chance when surrounding Arab states would gang up on it.

[RawPower]

It would have made more sense to slice off a piece of Germany or something. More valuable real estate too.

I think the Jews wanted as little to do with Germany as possible after the war. Can't say I blame them.

Or... If the Palestinians don't need a state, why do Jews need one? Am i right?

You missed my point. I'm saying if there doesn't NEED to be a Jewish state, then logically there doesn't need to be a Palestinian one either. However, my position has always been that the Jews and Palestinians should both have states.

His argument is still pretty simple. Jews have lived scattered all around the world for 2 thousands years, they can continue to do so. He doesn't believe the Palestinians need to give up to make room for a group of foreigners.

I don't buy this. Most of our years in Europe were spent being persecuted, burned alive, isolated, exiled, and generally treated as foreigners or "other". Why would any Jew circa 1948 opt out of living in a UN partitioned land, run by Jews, for Jews, with independence and nationhood, in favor of returning to a life that resulted in more than 6 million of them being killed in the most heinous ways. I don't agree with your assertion that Jews are foreigners though, as I have explained before.

[RawPower]

While I don't think an artificial state needed to be created for that purpose, practically, it would have made more sense than in Palestine. It would be double the pain in the butt for Germany, like another Poland, so there would be benefits for the rest of the world.

See my above post. You would have to be insanely insensitive to try to convince a Holocaust refugee or survivor to go live in Germany (at least back then) after the Germans tried to wipe them out. They picked Palestine because it is commonly considered their land of origin. Whether or not you believe that is another story.

[Instigator]

I don't buy this. Most of our years in Europe were spent being persecuted, burned alive, isolated, exiled, and generally treated as foreigners or "other".

Gee, give the Roma a homeland then. Or any other maligned group for that matter. Just because.

Why would any Jew circa 1948 opt out of living in a UN partitioned land, run by Jews, for Jews, with independence and nationhood, in favor of returning to a life that resulted in more than 6 million of them being killed in the most heinous ways.

Well, the majority of Jews still live outside of Israel. You do too as far as I can tell. They've made their choice then, and they're still making that choice now.

I don't agree with your assertion that Jews are foreigners though, as I have explained before.

The Jews who emigrated to Palestine were foreigners by the most conservative definition of the word. They were not returning "home" but to a land were their ancestors used to live long ago. They had little in common with the local population and carved out a piece of territory to live a mostly Western way of life.

See my above post. You would have to be insanely insensitive to try to convince a Holocaust refugee or survivor to go live in Germany (at least back then) after the Germans tried to wipe them out. They picked Palestine because it is commonly considered their land of origin, regardless of whether or not you personally believe it.

So? You have to be insanely insensitive to have massive population transfers after the trauma of WWII, just because maps were redrawn. Yet it happened in Europe.

They picked Palestine because that's what they wanted all along, they also picked it because they could more easily get it against the will of the local people (ain't colonialism great?)and they had a successful terror campaign already in progress.

[RawPower]

Gee, give the Roma a homeland then. Or any other maligned group for that matter. Just because.

I wouldn't be against this, personally.

Well, the majority of Jews still live outside of Israel. You do too as far as I can tell. They've made their choice then, and they're still making that choice now.

I'll give you this. I could have phrased that better.

The Jews who emigrated to Palestine were foreigners by the most conservative definition of the word. They were not returning "home" but to a land were their ancestors used to live long ago. They had little in common with the local population and carved out a piece of territory to live a mostly Western way of life.

Some Jews chose to retain the customs of their host populations, others didn't. Some choose to identify more closely with their Middle Eastern heritage. I could be considered part of the latter grouping.