[Cyan]

I'm sorry. I thought this was a debate thread.

Oh, it's a debate thread. My bad. In that case, by all means, straw-man, obfuscate, and willfully misunderstand to your heart's content.

[Pollux]

you are wrong.

Really? So the government can tell the Catholic Church that the Church has to perform gay marriages?

[NathanMcMahon]

Really? So the government can tell the Catholic Church that the Church has to perform gay marriages?

you should look up separate but equal. I think you are confusing that with separation of church and state....

[Pollux]

you should look up separate but equal. I think you are confusing that with separation of church and state....

The post you responses to was saying that gays should have civil marriages not religious ones. That is not separate but equal which you claimed it to be.

[Nightshade1765]

That example has literally nothing to do with separate but equal

That is completely untrue. What you propose is, "Hey gay people can get 'married' but not married like us married."

You're stating that what they should receive should be separate from what a straight couple would receive (regardless of how different) and it's still wrong.

[DanteFox]

Do you support civil unions for everyone? Someone made a post identical to mine except "marriage" was "civil unions" and yet you only quoted me.

not really.

Oh, it's a debate thread. My bad. In that case, by all means, straw-man, obfuscate, and willfully misunderstand to your heart's content.

I was willfully misunderstanding, but only to make a point. I did not straw man or obfuscate however.

[NathanMcMahon]

The post you responses to was saying that gays should have civil marriages not religious ones. That is not separate but equal which you claimed it to be.

yes it is and you are wrong again. You should probably quit while you are behind... literally

of course, I doubt you will, so do, go on...

[SouthernDragon]

Ahem.

Christians do not own the concept of marriage.

[Air]

That is completely untrue. What you propose is, "Hey gay people can get 'married' but not married like us married." You're stating that what they should receive should be separate from what a straight couple would receive (regardless of how different) and it's still wrong.

I think dreams-visions post does a better job at explaining what the other guy ment (unless I'm mistaken)

[C4Lukins]

What would your proposed amendment say?

In general I would not like to make it a federal issue and leave it to the states. But it is a question of freedom so I guess it should be a federal issue.

"All American citizens, whether they be heterosexual or homosexual couples, have the same freedom to engage in marriage, and are hereby confirmed the equal rites as stated by the laws of the United States,,,,"

You get the gist of it. Someone more intelligent then myself would have to write it up.

[Pollux]

yes it is and you are wrong again. You should probably quit while you are behind... literally of course, I doubt you will, so do, go on...

The government. Can't. Force. A. Religion. To. Accept. Or. Perform. Gay. Marriages.

That is not a separate but equal issue.

[NathanMcMahon]

I think dreams-visions post does a better job at explaining what the other guy ment (unless I'm mistaken)

I can't interpret what someone writes. I can only analyze it. If that is what he meant, so be it but, really, it was worded poorly.

The government. Can't. Force. A. Religion. To. Accept. Or. Perform. Gay. Marriages. That is not a separate but equal issue.

I have no idea why you insist on repeating this. You are trying to tell me what I wrote was something else, so you can stop now as that isn't what I wrote.

[Devolution]

Fuck that, religion has about as much rights to the word marriage as anyone else. My parents got a fucking marriage without anything religious. Gays should be conferred that same right. End of story.

[Mecha_Infantry]

Marriage isn't a religious institution. My parents were married by a justice of the peace in San Francisco city hall. It wouldn't be spitting in their face because it doesn't belong to them. They think it does, but they're mistaken.

I was going by the part in the OP about being defined in US law, hence my mention about Christians.

I'm from England so things are a little different here. I know we've had gay couples wanting to be married in church and priests saying they will/won't marry them. But we have legal ceromanies and they are declared as marriage

I just thought it was actually defined in US law about the Christian thing.

So... you're in favor of gay marriage. Since that's exactly what it is.

Lol obviously. I think whoever wants to be married should be.

[Air]

I can't interpret what someone writes. I can only analyze it. If that is what he meant, so be it but, really, it was worded poorly.

Yes you can to the bold, and I don't disagree with the latter.

Fuck that, religion has about as much rights to the word marriage as anyone else. My parents got a fucking marriage without anything religious. Gays should be conferred that same right. End of story.

It may, but I find it hard to believe had the word marriage been replaced with civil unions before this all got out of control, that it would be a bad thing or that anybody would have had a problem with it. Keep it secular. The problem with marriage the word is that it has for a long time shared religious connotations, more so than secular connotations. The other problem seems to be that more people associate the word with its religious meaning and it gets fuddled from there

[NathanMcMahon]

Yes you can to the bold, and I don't disagree with the latter. It may, but I find it hard to believe had the word marriage been replaced with civil unions before this all got out of control, that it would be a bad thing or that anybody would have had a problem with it. Keep it secular. The problem with marriage the word is that it has for a long time shared religious connotations, more so than secular connotations. The other problem seems to be that more people associate the word with its religious meaning and it gets fuddled from there

And know that he's stated it was what he intended it makes more sense. Seeing as he's not from the US, I get that he may not have a concept of the inherent problems with anything that is related to our unfortunate culture when it comes to our sad history of the concept of separate but equal.

[C4Lukins]

I was going by the part in the OP about being defined in US law, hence my mention about Christians. I'm from England so things are a little different here. I know we've had gay couples wanting to be married in church and priests saying they will/won't marry them. But we have legal ceremonies and they are declared as marriage I just thought it was actually defined in US law about the Christian thing. Lol obviously. I think whoever wants to be married should be.

No it is not defined in US law. As you may know, we have 50 states and some of those states have legalized gay marriage. The federal government has not passed a law banning it, but they also do not recognize certain tax exemptions and such for gay couples. It is a bit of a cluster fuck over here.

[Loofy]

Fuck that, religion has about as much rights to the word marriage as anyone else. My parents got a fucking marriage without anything religious. Gays should be conferred that same right. End of story.

Thats why it should be done away with altogether in legal wording.
That way this doesnt become a gay vs straight thing. We can make it a religion vs atheists thing.
Now that would be fun.

[Dead Man]

Pretty much.

[Orayn]

Thats why it should be done away altogether in legal wording. That way this doesnt become a gay vs straight thing. We can make it a religion vs atheists thing. Now that would be fun.

Wait, Loofy and I agree on scrapping marriage as a legal entity, making everything a civil union, and letting people call it whatever they want? BRB, reconsidering probability of 2012 apocalypse.

[Famassu]

I think gay people should be together, but I don't think they should marry under the name of God or church To me it's spitting in the face of Christians and what they believe in. So they should just separate that idea and have a legal ceromany to declare their togetherness.

When Christians can't agree even on not-so-divisive issues, I think it's wrong to say this spits in their face, it's just a case of Bible's interpretation. There are already plenty of Churches and Christians in the world who accept gay marriages.

[Air]

Wait, Loofy and I agree on scrapping marriage as a legal entity, making everything a civil union, and letting people call it whatever they want? BRB, reconsidering probability of 2012 apocalypse.

It's the most reasonable thing for all (well informed) parties involved to do. Unfortunatelly it just isn't practical in today's political climate.

[Pollux]

Pretty much.

When it gets legalized, can we have an awesome Independence Day moment and pretend the world is goin to end, and when literally nothing really changes except the gay people in te bunker with us do some maverick/goose celebration and we can then all fist bump, laugh at mitt Romney, and go back to our lives? (yiu know that part in the movie when everyone is chilling in the bunker waiting for the world to end)

[Zeppelin]

Let them marry. Call it marriage. Allow churches to refuse to marry gay couples if they don't like it.

[NathanMcMahon]

When it gets legalized, can we have an awesome Independence Day moment and pretend the world is goin to end, and when literally nothing really changes except the gay people in te bunker with us do some maverick/goose celebration and we can then all fist bump, laugh at mitt Romney, and go back to our lives? (yiu know that part in the movie when everyone is chilling in the bunker waiting for the world to end)

wtf

[Dead Man]

When it gets legalized, can we have an awesome Independence Day moment and pretend the world is goin to end, and when literally nothing really changes except the gay people in te bunker with us do some maverick/goose celebration and we can then all fist bump, laugh at mitt Romney, and go back to our lives? (yiu know that part in the movie when everyone is chilling in the bunker waiting for the world to end)

Yes, yes we can.

[Pollux]

wtf

People against it think the world will end if it passes. When the world doesn't end we can all laugh at them and go about our lives. It's 4 in the morning, just roll with it.

[NullPointer]

Let them marry. Call it marriage. Allow churches to refuse to marry gay couples if they don't like it.

You'd think it would be easy wouldn't you? But society has its own inertia.

[MyAbsolution]

Its so awesome that most of us live in countries that have separation of church and state, so these sorts of things are not issues at all in our lives and never take up unneeded time.


OH... wait... What?

[Cyan]

When it gets legalized, can we have an awesome Independence Day moment and pretend the world is goin to end, and when literally nothing really changes except the gay people in te bunker with us do some maverick/goose celebration and we can then all fist bump, laugh at mitt Romney, and go back to our lives? (yiu know that part in the movie when everyone is chilling in the bunker waiting for the world to end)

And we can also reenact the part where the Americans come up with a plan, and then call everybody else to tell them about it, and then that one dude is like "The Americans have a plan!" and the other dude goes "It's about time!"

Except instead of having a plan, it's enacting gay marriage.

:/

[Pollux]

Yes, yes we can.

napoleondynomite"niiiice".jpg

And we can also reenact the part where the Americans come up with a plan, and then call everybody else to tell them about it, and then that one dude is like "The Americans have a plan!" and the other dude goes "It's about time!" Except instead of having a plan, it's enacting gay marriage. :/

best part of the whole movie. Everyone is literally staring at their radios waiting for th Americans to take the lead bc God knows nobody else could do anything except sit around and play solitaire during an alien invasion.

[CrocMother]

I don't know about you guys, but I am on the right side of history.

[soco]

The only real question left to debate on the topic is why we're still spending money addressing this issue.

Is this really such a high priority issue for anyone that we'd rather have politicians spend time and money on something that affects 4% of the country versus say trying to address more wide-ranging issues like education?

[Orayn]

And we can also reenact the part where the Americans come up with a plan, and then call everybody else to tell them about it, and then that one dude is like "The Americans have a plan!" and the other dude goes "It's about time!" Except instead of having a plan, it's enacting gay marriage. :/

Think of it as a GAF thread.

"LTTP: Civil Rights - Yeah, we fucked up pretty bad."

[amar212]

If I can get marry to someone I love, they can also marry with someone they love.

End of story.

This complete matter is nothing but pure political propaganda of modern ages in majority of countries where conservative/religious options are deliberately taking advantage of it in order to gain prospect among their supporters. Fuck that shit.

Obama just gave America a unique opportunity to show the world again about USA really being "Land of the Free". You Americans should really support that.

Show the world how America is The America. Put aside your personal religious or whatever beliefs you have and stand for the rights of people that are same as you, but with one difference: they do not have the same right as you have. Is that fair? Is that fair for your fellow Americans?

You owe that to your eternally celebrated Founding Fathers. You owe that to humanity. Do not let selfish and dishonest interests of particular interest-groups blind your obligation to allow your fellow Americans get the same right you enjoy without thinking, just because somebody think your right is more right then theirs.

It is not. Those are the same rights. And historic equaliser lays in your hands.

Make world proud once more. It was a long time since you did that last time. Maybe you don't understand the universal consequences of giving support to such thing because you are not seeing it in the universal perspective, but if you support this, the eyes and minds of the world will change.

And that is what being the World Leader is all about. To lead. And you should never forget that.

[Apeopleman]

The only real question left to debate on the topic is why we're still spending money addressing this issue. Is this really such a high priority issue for anyone that we'd rather have politicians spend time and money on something that affects 4% of the country versus say trying to address more wide-ranging issues like education?

This, again and again

People love bashing the idea of gay marriage, when there are far more serious issues.

Also, I love how people always say gay marriage ruins the "sanctity" of marriage. Thats your opinion, keep it to yourself!

[Aaron]

I think we should just get back to the roots of marriage. A bartering system where a man could trade his daughter for a few cows and a chicken. I feel all this 'love' business has corrupted the true meaning of marriage.

[Dead Man]

If I can get marry to someone I love, they can also marry with someone they love. End of story. This complete matter is nothing but pure political propaganda of modern ages in majority of countries where conservative/religious options are deliberately taking advantage of it in order to gain prospect among their supporters. Fuck that shit. Obama just gave America a unique opportunity to show the world again about USA really being "Land of the Free". You Americans should really support that. Show the world how America is The America. Put aside your personal religious or whatever beliefs you have and stand for the rights of people that are same as you, but with one difference: they do not have the same right as you have. Is that fair? Is that fair for your fellow Americans? You owe that to your eternally celebrated Founding Fathers. You owe that to humanity. Do not let selfish and dishonest interests of particular interest-groups blind your obligation to allow your fellow Americans get the same right you enjoy without thinking, just because somebody think your right is more right then theirs. It is not. Those are the same rights. And historic equaliser lays in your hands. Make world proud once more. It was a long time since you did that last time. Maybe you don't understand the universal consequences of giving support to such thing because you are not seeing it in the universal perspective, but if you support this, the eyes and minds of the world will change. And that is what being the World Leader is all about. To lead. And you should never forget that.

[MIMIC]

I think we should just get back to the roots of marriage. A bartering system where a man could trade his daughter for a few cows and a chicken. I feel all this 'love' business has corrupted the true meaning of marriage.

I was just catching up on the history of marriage through Google. It's fucking hilarious. The man kidnapped the woman and that's how we get the concept of carrying her over the threshold? LOL

[fanboi]

1) That, in this day and age, we still have a debate about this is shameful.

2) That, in this day and age, Obamas decision to support gay marriges is a WORLD WIDE NEWS is shameful.

3) But, we are moving forward! Which is good I guess.

[NEOPARADIGM]

Everyone catch the Bristol Palin rant?

Liberals everywhere are applauding [Obama] for his bravery and his wisdom [on the gay marriage thing]. So let me get this straight – it’s a problem if my mom listened too much to my dad, but it’s a heroic act if the President made a massive change in a policy position that could affect the entire nation after consulting with his teenage daughters? While it’s great to listen to your kids’ ideas, there’s also a time when dads simply need to be dads. In this case, it would’ve been helpful for him to explain to Malia and Sasha that while her friends parents are no doubt lovely people, that’s not a reason to change thousands of years of thinking about marriage. Or that – as great as her friends may be – we know that in general kids do better growing up in a mother/father home. Ideally, fathers help shape their kids’ worldview.

It's funny how she thinks "thousands of years of thinking about marriage" contains inherent worth. Like, fuck just because of this Copernicus guy, we should change thousands of years of thinking omg u so dumb

[SalsaShark]

I ussually dont even bother voicing my opinion because the fact that we're living in 2012 and this is still a thing to debate over is beyond retarded and just makes me shake my head in disbelief. I just assume people think i have common sense.

[Trakdown]

It's funny how she thinks "thousands of years of thinking about marriage" contains inherent worth. Like, fuck just because of this Copernicus guy, we should change thousands of years of thinking omg u so dumb

I guess Michael is the last Palin that ever said something that wasn't completely fucking dense and ignorant.


So yeah, about this "debate": I can't wait till it's over, gay people can marry and we can all start looking at the older generations funny for ever considering this an "issue". It's some of the silliest, most inane shit that I've ever heard people argue over, and the fact that it deprives law-abiding, tax-paying, community-supporting citizens of a right to something that should be standard pisses me off. The opposition to gay marriage is laughable at every turn. Also, fuck everybody who goes "Let's let the states decide!" No, fuck you. It's wrong, it's unconstitutional and it's just as much bullshit in the state capital as it is in the nation's capital.

Let them marry. For most of us, the change to our lives is negligible to non-existent. For them, it'll be a long awaited chance to do something they should've been able to do since forever. And for all the people this pisses off: It never should've been your business in the first place.

[Monocle]

There's an outrageous amount of misinformation surrounding homosexuality and the marriage issue. Many people are convinced that being gay means you also have to be mentally disordered and promiscuous, unwilling to commit to one partner and unable to raise a well-adjusted child. It's no wonder that these confusions cause otherwise fair-minded and sensible people to be hostile toward something as obviously correct and necessary as equal rights for sexual minorities.

One telling sign that major social change is underway is the escalating popular desperation to preserve traditional symbols of permanence and stability. This accounts for a lot of the conservative hysteria over "attempts to change the definition of marriage." But then you still have to deal with all of the imbeciles who can't be perturbed by facts—those who believe that their religious convictions or their primitive disgust for "fags" or their aversion to an imaginary model of "the gay lifestyle" should be reflected in federal law. It's all about them, and in more ways than one. These bigots are living artifacts in the history of discrimination, whose only lasting significance will be to caution future generations against the parochial egotism of moral certainty.

[Gelry]

We have same-sex mariage since 2003 and same-sex couples can adopt since 2006.
If you want to know what happened as a result of this? Pictures of those first gay people getting married in newspapers.

As far as I can remember, there was no public outcry about it, there were no protests that I can recall and you know why? Because it's only a big deal for those gay people who are just like you and me, but who love someone of the same sex. If you are against it, why not forbid marriage with ugly people? You don't want to have sex with them either. That's about as much of a reason you could have. "Ieuw, gay sex is gross, therefore I don't want them to have the right to marry one another."

And about "let's give it a different name!" WTF? You Americans are way too defensive about things that belong to religion, not to politics.
I understand that some religions will not allow gay people to get married in their church or whatever, but it's been a few years since religion and state have been split.

The USA may in the past have been a shining beacon of democracy and human rights, but that time has long since gone in my view.

[JGS]

The USA may in the past have been a shining beacon of democracy and human rights, but that time has long since gone in my view.

It's always cute when this is turned into an American thing when the only reason people condemn America is because we are largely the only ones talking about it. Congrats on you country being "bigot free" for 10 year, but it's silly to think that America is the one holding gay marriage back when we're the ones that can't shut up about it. As a result, each year, improvement is made regarding acceptance. Americans don't care about the whole beacon thing (If anything, democracy is working as people ban gay marriage in some states)

Democracy was the problem imo. The gay marriage movement is partly responsible by the stupid way it was presented and even now is presented idiotically. It boils down to "If you don't vote against your religious beliefs, you hate gay people!" Shock and awe when that strategy doesn't work. I have no issues with gay marriage but by the rhetoric, I still likely hate gay people & I am so evil I can learn to live with it lol.

Rather than putting it in the peoples' hands, it should have been taken away from them and handled as a basic human right which does not always go through the democratic process and state by state.

[marrec]

What Gay rhetoric JGS?

It's fairly simple. If you vote to ban gay marriage then you're a bigot. Regardless of whatever made up reason you voted for it. If you're religious but are cool with gay people getting married in your churches, then you aren't a bigot.

[RPGCrazied]

Doesn't bother me either way. I'm gay myself, and I don't want to get married, a boyfriend would be nice, but I'm not expecting that for a very long time.

[IrishNinja]

I believe in civil unions for everyone.

this has been a nice talking point for years, but politically, it's not on the table. strikes me as a stalling technique at this point.

man, this debate has had me bummed. after the obama thing the other day, the local hip-hop station had some southern baptist pastors on, talking about how he'd have to choose between "the LBGT agenda" and "the black agenda", because he couldn't have both.

smh @ these false dichotomies.

[nib95]

Doesn't bother me either way. I'm gay myself, and I don't want to get married, a boyfriend would be nice, but I'm not expecting that for a very long time.

But what if one day you do want to get married? Should you not at least have the option?