[Canuck76]

Being an asshole isn't fun. Being respected feels nice. Being respected simply because you're not an asshole shouldn't be realistic, but somehow things have shaken out that way.

It can be pretty fun

[CrushDance]

I'm for gay marriage... And then it's not private. If that belief is affecting anyone then it needs to be addressed and isn't protected by the "it'd just my opinion" crap. For example, someone may find gays to be "ewe the gay". That would be a private belief. But if that person never treats gays with anything other than courtesy, kindness, and respect...and then goes to the polls and votes to make gay marriage legal...is there really a problem? See my hypothetical man above. He may believe that being gay is somehow wrong because that's his belief. But e also says to himself that he has no right to tell someone else how to live their life. What's wrong for him might be right for someone else. So he votes for marriage equality and all that. Private belief. But not harming anyone. Then it wouldn't be private. Hypothetical man finds gays gross but holds his belief in the constitution and equal rights for all above his phobia. So he voted for gay marriage. That would be a private belief that isn't harming anyone. Unless I'm looking at this wrong?

You're harming people by not giving them the same freedoms that you enjoy. It is not tolerance to treat someone nicely and yet vote to curb their rights and freedoms. That is still ignorance and hate.

[GrizzNKev]

Okay, if I don't like the sound of people eating crunchy foods, and there's no way for me to escape the noise, do I have to tolerate it or am I insane?

[Cyan]

Bloody hell. You have to be tolerant of things that you don't like if they don't hurt anyone. Otherwise people will be intolerant of shit you do that they don't like that doesn't hurt anyone. It's pretty simple. Golden Rule and all that.

Or Prisoner's Dilemma.

[Bladenic]

I agree in that the political correctness of every day life is often very suffocating. Mainly though, I honestly detest these groups whom stand "in defense" of a particular issue or belief and are absolutely ruthless if you disagree. God help you if you're even a small celebrity and you make one slight remark about homosexuals, wear anything made with an animals fur, etc.

Obviously this argument is pretty moot though. But yes, I find it pretty insufferable when someone attacks another person for being ignorant or whatnot. You can't help how you feel, honestly. However, in such circumstances it's better to simply keep such opinions hidden. Yes, it shouldn't always be like that, but it's really for the best in almost any circumstance.

[Pollux]

You're harming people by not giving them the same freedoms that you enjoy. It is not tolerance to treat someone nicely and yet vote to curb their rights and freedoms. That is still ignorance and hate.

Can you read? Where did it say that he was voting to deprive someone of their rights and freedoms?

[CrushDance]

Okay, if I don't like the sound of people eating crunchy foods, and there's no way for me to escape the noise, do I have to tolerate it or am I insane?

Does it cause you actual pain? I knew a kid who had very sensitive hearing in elementary. And so we were always very quiet around him. People tolerate and accept that other people are different. That is what tolerance is about. Not about 'This is my world only'.

Can you read? Where did it say that he was voting to deprive someone of their rights and freedoms?

Blah. My bad, read too fast.

[19 & 21]

Because your perspective is not the only one that matters or exists. Quantify your dislike of something with a solid argument and perhaps you'll persuade people to sympathize with you or even join you. Show disrespect towards something that is commonly tolerated or "supposed" to be tolerated and you'll find yourself not taken very seriously by your opposition no matter how well reasoned you are. Just take a look at Richard Dawkins. It's not only about having respect, it's about knowing how to properly jump over the social hurdles instead of stampeding them over.

[Pollux]

Does it cause you actual pain? I knew a kid who had very sensitive hearing in elementary. And so we were always very quiet around him. People tolerate and accept that other people are different. That is what tolerance is about. Not about 'This is my world only'. Blah. My bad, read too fast.

Sorry for snapping at you like a jackass.

[Cyan]

Being an asshole isn't fun. 100% false.

And thus is a great deal explained.

[GrizzNKev]

Does it cause you actual pain? I knew a kid who had very sensitive hearing in elementary. And so we were always very quiet around him. People tolerate and accept that other people are different. That is what tolerance is about. Not about 'This is my world only'.

Eh... I dunno. There are some sounds I hear that make me freak out in ways that would cause people to think I'm crazy. I don't know if pain is the right word... but this horrible feeling of chaos in my head. Not annoying in the way a repetitive sound is, like dripping water. Something that makes me instantly feel a need to yell at the person to stop, but then I feel bad because it's not fair to make people adjust the way they act to accommodate me.

It's what I was hoping this thread would be about when I saw the title but it ended up being the same political correctness / civil rights / tolerance thing GAF perpetually argues about.

[davepoobond]

because the world doesnt revolve around you.

or maybe it does, and i didn't know it did. in which case, sorry.

[CrushDance]

Sorry for snapping at you like a jackass.

It's fine :) Forget about it.

Eh... I dunno. There are some sounds I hear that make me freak out in ways that would cause people to think I'm crazy. I don't know if pain is the right word... but this horrible feeling of chaos in my head. Not annoying in the way a repetitive sound is, like dripping water. Something that makes me instantly feel a need to yell at the person to stop, but then I feel bad because it's not fair to make people adjust the way they act to accommodate me.

You should just mention it. Most people will be considerate enough.You shouldn't feel bad about just asking.

[foodtaster]

Does it cause you actual pain? I knew a kid who had very sensitive hearing in elementary. And so we were always very quiet around him. People tolerate and accept that other people are different. That is what tolerance is about. Not about 'This is my world only'. Blah. My bad, read too fast.

Sorry for snapping at you like a jackass.

It's fine :) Forget about it. You should just mention it. Most people will be considerate enough.

peace, dawg. ;)

[Buzzati]

Eh... I dunno. There are some sounds I hear that make me freak out in ways that would cause people to think I'm crazy. I don't know if pain is the right word... but this horrible feeling of chaos in my head. Not annoying in the way a repetitive sound is, like dripping water. Something that makes me instantly feel a need to yell at the person to stop, but then I feel bad because it's not fair to make people adjust the way they act to accommodate me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misophonia

[Timedog]

Then it wouldn't be private. Hypothetical man finds gays gross but holds his belief in the constitution and equal rights for all above his phobia. So he voted for gay marriage. That would be a private belief that isn't harming anyone. Unless I'm looking at this wrong?

Okay, I'm completely fine with that. Someone like that is rare in the real world.

[Air]

Eh... I dunno. There are some sounds I hear that make me freak out in ways that would cause people to think I'm crazy. I don't know if pain is the right word... but this horrible feeling of chaos in my head. Not annoying in the way a repetitive sound is, like dripping water. Something that makes me instantly feel a need to yell at the person to stop, but then I feel bad because it's not fair to make people adjust the way they act to accommodate me.

You know... There's no problem in asking people politely to chew quieter.

[Pollux]

because the world doesnt revolve around you. or maybe it does, and i didn't know it did. in which case, sorry.

Hi, I'm Atlas. Could you come over here and hold this huge ass ball for a minute...

[Satch]

Eh... I dunno. There are some sounds I hear that make me freak out in ways that would cause people to think I'm crazy. I don't know if pain is the right word... but this horrible feeling of chaos in my head. Not annoying in the way a repetitive sound is, like dripping water. Something that makes me instantly feel a need to yell at the person to stop, but then I feel bad because it's not fair to make people adjust the way they act to accommodate me. It's what I was hoping this thread would be about when I saw the title but it ended up being the same political correctness / civil rights / tolerance thing GAF perpetually argues about.

Ever thought about seeing a therapist? Sounds kinda like neurosis.

If it makes you feel better, I react to things similarly, so you're not alone. :)

[GrizzNKev]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misophonia

Well shit. That describes me exactly. During my childhood, my brother was a jackass and would specifically make the sounds that set me off. Many times it would lead to physical aggression and would get me into trouble.

I find it a great deal easier to contain my rage now, but the feeling I get when I hear some sounds is something I don't think will ever go away.

So it's not an issue of me being intolerant... or is that still part of it?

The reactions are completely involuntary.

Maybe not a tolerance issue then. It only comes up with the way some people do things. The way one person breathes or chews or drinks won't bother me at all, and the way another person does it will make me flip out.

Most will simply avoid the offending sound by leaving the area altogether

Yep. When someone who eats a certain way starts eating, I get right the fuck out of the room.

[Buzzati]

Well shit. That describes me exactly. During my childhood, my brother was a jackass and would specifically make the sounds that set me off. Many times it would lead to physical aggression and would get me into trouble. I find it a great deal easier to contain my rage now, but the feeling I get when I hear some sounds is something I don't think will ever go away.

I have it with certain sounds as well. I understand what you mean.

So it's not an issue of me being intolerant... or is that still part of it?

It's an understudied phenomena. It's not you consciously being intolerant - it's an autonomic reaction. Where it exactly comes from is still up for debate.

[Pollux]

Okay, I'm completely fine with that. Someone like that is rare in the real world.

While I agree with you that it's very rare, my only point was that it's possible to not want to impose your beliefs in everyone. As a Catholic I view homosexual intercourse as a sin, along with masturbation and premarital sex. Needless to say I'm a fucking terrible Catholic, so I clearly dont have ANY right to judge anybody for anything. Let alone try and legislate it. I vote for gay marriage, but I view the act of homosexual intercourse as a sin. But I had sex with the GF and I like watching porn, so I'm worse off than someone who just has homosexual sex. My point is that I'm a real world example of not legislating personal beliefs.

I'll probably get ripped apart for my belief in sin, but its what I believe. If that offends anyone, too bad.

[Dead Man]

While I agree with you that it's very rare, my only point was that it's possible to not want to impose your beliefs in everyone. As a Catholic I view homosexual intercourse as a sin, along with masturbation and premarital sex. Needless to say I'm a fucking terrible Catholic, so I clearly dont have ANY right to judge anybody for anything. Let alone try and legislate it. I vote for gay marriage, but I view the act of homosexual intercourse as a sin. But I had sex with the GF and I like watching porn, so I'm worse off than someone who just has homosexual sex. My point is that I'm a real world example of not legislating personal beliefs. I'll probably get ripped apart for my belief in sin, but its what I believe. If that offends anyone, too bad.

No, you are the best kind of religious person. Thanks for sharing that, it's exactly what so many people do not do.

[GrizzNKev]

I have it with certain sounds as well. I understand what you mean.

Thank you so so so much for this. I try to explain it to people and they never understand. They can't see how a certain sound bothers me but nobody else. Now I can point them to a better explanation. This thread has redeemed itself for me. I am no longer insufferably intolerant! I hope, at least.

Often there is a single initial trigger (such as a parent's or sibling's noises), after which the triggers expand over time to include both auditory or visual elements.

Wow, just like I said. My brother was the source of the vast majority of the sounds that bothered me, and as horrible as it sounds, simply looking at his face began to cause a similar reaction. UGH

[Replicant]

Oh, you have every right to do it. And people have every right to react to it. The problem comes (and holy shit this happens a lot) when people want to be bigoted without other people calling them out on their shit. Call them a bigot or racist when they act in a bigoted or racist way and they freak the fuck out. It's hilarious, especially when right beforehand they try to argue about how "it's just an opinion" and "people need to have thicker skin", but they don't have the skin to handle other people's "opinions".

/thread

[jorma]

You don't have to like or approve of the shit you hate. You don't even need a reason and you get to be as bigoted and prejudiced as you like to be. You can do it while calling yourself a feminist, a religious man or a mans man. It's ok. It's your life and you get to live it as you like.

But when you use the legislative process so that you can force others to not do the shit you dont like, well that makes you a fascist and it makes me want to string you up in the nearest lamppost.

[NullPointer]

You don't. But you'll be labeled a bigot by some, which is just another way of saying "you're wrong."

Words have meaning.

And thus is a great deal explained.

I haven't met a person yet who advises people to have "thick skin" that isn't an asshole. There's my intolerance showing.

No, you are the best kind of religious person. Thanks for sharing that, it's exactly what so many people do not do.

Indeed.

[Kabouter]

In America? Sure. NeoGAF on the other hand...

NeoGAF on the other hand is not a state, and is under no obligation to extend the same free speech rights to its users that the United States of America does to its citizens. If someone wants to express bigoted opinions, I highly recommend they find another forum to post on.

[peace in palestine]

.

[soul creator]

While I agree with you that it's very rare, my only point was that it's possible to not want to impose your beliefs in everyone. As a Catholic I view homosexual intercourse as a sin, along with masturbation and premarital sex. Needless to say I'm a fucking terrible Catholic, so I clearly dont have ANY right to judge anybody for anything. Let alone try and legislate it. I vote for gay marriage, but I view the act of homosexual intercourse as a sin. But I had sex with the GF and I like watching porn, so I'm worse off than someone who just has homosexual sex. My point is that I'm a real world example of not legislating personal beliefs. I'll probably get ripped apart for my belief in sin, but its what I believe. If that offends anyone, too bad.

While this is obviously much better than a random fundie voting against gay marriage, I would still say your beliefs like the bolded are open to debate/discussion if they happen to be brought up. It doesn't "offend" me, but I do think it's wrong, and still harmful. Again, it's probably not as harmful, but I think there's other reasons to consider it still harmful on balance.

I suppose it's the difference between passive and active approval. I actually think we'd be a much better society to not just be like "meh, gay sex is sinful, but it's cool if they wanna get married I guess. I sin too!", but to instead say "consensual human sexuality should never be considered 'sinful' or negative in any way whatsoever". Especially since "gay sex is sinful" is one of those cultural ideas that is partially responsible for the whole debate in the first place. You may personally happen to have figured out a way to separate it from your voting habits, and that's great, but I basically see that as addressing the "symptom" and not the "disease".

Though one could say this is beyond the gay marriage issue specifically, and is now a discussion on how we should approach human sexuality in general. A related debate, but not necessarily the same one.

[Dead Man]

yeah it really sucks when you're forced to tolerate all kids of weird shit here in san francisco! 350lb hairy dudes in wigs and dresses? tolerate it! stinky ass homeless people with scabs all over their body on public transportation? tolerate it! naked gays walking around in public? tolerate it! even here on GAF you can't share your real opinion since SOMEONE will be offended, even if you never meant it as an insult!

You could always... move. Isn't that what gay people are told when they live in a state that legislates against them?

[Aizu_Itsuko]

The OP seems like a rant and you don't seem to be annoyed because you can't express your opinion. You seem to be annoyed at the fact that others may disagree with that opinion.

In other words, you don't want to be tolerant when it comes to others but demand others to be tolerant when it comes to you.

You can voice your opinion all you like as long as you are ready for others to express how they feel about it.

Tolerance, empathy and respect have helped us to create a better world, one where people don't fight but communicate, where people exchange their ideas and try to understand other people's point of view. In other words, all these traits and many others have created a better society where people care about each other and it has made us better individuals. Not all people are egocentric by the way.

Of course it's not about being a hypocrite or anything like that. I personally hate extreme political correctness and hypocrisy with a passion. It's about learning how to better communicate with others, how to express your feelings and thoughts, how to empathise with those of others and learning which issues are actually important to you or as a whole and which aren't, where to draw the line and how respond proportinally.

So go ahead, express yourself, be yourself, explain in detail how you feel and why when needed but do it respectfully, in calm. Don't try to impose your opinion; instead try to understand why others think differently and if there's something you can learn from them or about yourself.

Just remember to not be a dick about it.

[NullPointer]

yeah it really sucks when you're forced to tolerate all kids of weird shit here in san francisco! 350lb hairy dudes in wigs and dresses? tolerate it! stinky ass homeless people with scabs all over their body on public transportation? tolerate it! naked gays walking around in public? tolerate it!

Somehow I doubt your alternative to tolerance would be a good thing.

[Pollux]

While this is obviously much better than a random fundie voting against gay marriage, I would still say your beliefs like the bolded are open to debate/discussion if they happen to be brought up. It doesn't "offend" me, but I do think it's wrong, and still harmful. Again, it's probably not as harmful, but I think there's other reasons to consider it still harmful on balance. I suppose it's the difference between passive and active approval. I actually think we'd be a much better society to not just be like "meh, gay sex is sinful, but it's cool if they wanna get married I guess. I sin too!", but to instead say "consensual human sexuality should never be considered 'sinful' or negative in any way whatsoever". Especially since "gay sex is sinful" is one of those cultural ideas that is partially responsible for the whole debate in the first place. You may personally happen to have figured out a way to separate it from your voting habits, and that's great, but I basically see that as addressing the "symptom" and not the "disease". Though one could say this is beyond the gay marriage issue specifically, and is now a discussion on how we should approach human sexuality in general. A related debate, but not necessarily the same one.

Well, I don't see it as that big of a problem considering almost everything, and I mean literally almost everything you might enjoy doing, is a sin.

You bring up the consensual sexual activity, it's still a sin if it's outside marriage. Which then gets us to the problem of the Church not allowing gays to participate in the sacrament I marriage, leading to a whole different can of worms.

And I would agree that all beliefs are up for debate or discussion. I couldn't see anything bolted so what part in particular where you talking about?

[Devolution]

yeah it really sucks when you're forced to tolerate all kids of weird shit here in san francisco! 350lb hairy dudes in wigs and dresses? tolerate it! stinky ass homeless people with scabs all over their body on public transportation? tolerate it! naked gays walking around in public? tolerate it! even here on GAF you can't share your real opinion since SOMEONE will be offended, even if you never meant it as an insult!

What are your alternatives to these things?

[soul creator]

Well, I don't see it as that big of a problem considering almost everything, and I mean literally almost everything you might enjoy doing, is a sin.

And that's precisely the issue! I think that contributes to people feeling guilty/stressed/angry/perplexed over things that ultimately have no reason to be considered negative at all. Such as gay sex.

Again, you as an individual may have figured out how to separate "I personally think this is sinful" from "I will vote to express my belief", and that's great. But I would rather push for a society that never thought it was sinful in the first place, since I think that would be a far more acceptable, loving, and rewarding society to live in.

One likely response to this is something along the lines of "well, you might as well just ask me to not be religious anymore!"

Well, I'm sure you've seen me in plenty of atheism/religion threads, so you probably know my feelings on that :D

You bring up the consensual sexual activity, it's still a sin if it's outside marriage. Which then gets us to the problem of the Church not allowing gays to participate in the sacrament I marriage, leading to a whole different can of worms. And I would agree that all beliefs are up for debate or discussion. I couldn't see anything bolted so what part in particular where you talking about?

There's sometime a tendency of liberal religious believers to imply that since they're "not as bad" as wacky fundies, that means their beliefs are somehow more immune from criticism. Some of your comments seemed kind of close to that.

Another similar example of this is when the "lots of religious believers accept evolution!" idea that's always brought up (even though their version of evolution is just as fanciful in some ways as stereotypical "creationism").

[Famassu]

Obviously this argument is pretty moot though. But yes, I find it pretty insufferable when someone attacks another person for being ignorant or whatnot. You can't help how you feel, honestly. However, in such circumstances it's better to simply keep such opinions hidden. Yes, it shouldn't always be like that, but it's really for the best in almost any circumstance.

This is such a silly thing to say. OF COURSE YOU CAN CHANGE. Hate towards people often comes from ignorance and false beliefs/knowledge. By educating yourself and getting to know the unknown, attitudes can often change. You just have to be WILLING to change (i.e. compare cases where someone comes out of the closet to his super-conservative family but because they love their child & don't want to lose him/her, they end up growing up to notice he/she's still their child and there's nothing wrong in him/her, and a similar case where the family simply stops all communication between them & the gay son/daughter; the other family is willing to change once they see that being gay doesn't change who their child is, the other family willingly keeps up the belief that homosexuality is wrong no matter what and their child will burn in the fires of Mordor).

[DukeTogo1300]

While I agree with you that it's very rare, my only point was that it's possible to not want to impose your beliefs in everyone. As a Catholic I view homosexual intercourse as a sin, along with masturbation and premarital sex. Needless to say I'm a fucking terrible Catholic, so I clearly dont have ANY right to judge anybody for anything. Let alone try and legislate it. I vote for gay marriage, but I view the act of homosexual intercourse as a sin. But I had sex with the GF and I like watching porn, so I'm worse off than someone who just has homosexual sex. My point is that I'm a real world example of not legislating personal beliefs. I'll probably get ripped apart for my belief in sin, but its what I believe. If that offends anyone, too bad.

What a refreshingly familiar perspective, cheers. I'm Christian, but I only concern my own person with gay/not-gay, as a strictly personal matter. I cannot think of any good argument on the secular side to be against gay rights, and that is where I believe the state should stand. The only thing I would ever oppose would be a top-down law that forces a church against their beliefs to marry a gay couple. It isn't the concern of the government to force or deny, and voters need to recognize the secular populace as well as themselves.

[zoukka]

Because enforcing your opinion on others is wrong and should be condemned.

Live and let live motherfucker.

[Zeouterlimits]

Because enforcing your opinion on others is wrong and should be condemned. Live and let live motherfucker.

Bingo, motherfucker.

[jorma]

even here on GAF you can't share your real opinion since SOMEONE will be offended, even if you never meant it as an insult!

This was a surprising conclusion to a post full of whining about stuff that you find offensive... And do you think the 350lbs dudes in wigs wears them just to insult you?

[Boss Doggie]

I'm confuzzled.

[soul creator]

Because enforcing your opinion on others is wrong and should be condemned. Live and let live motherfucker.

I think statements like this should be clarified, because literally every single person is attempting to "enforce their opinion" every time they vote, debate something, etc. I don't think making a blanket statement against "enforcing opinions" really gets to the heart of the issue.

[Opiate]

And then it's not private. If that belief is affecting anyone then it needs to be addressed and isn't protected by the "it'd just my opinion" crap.

Realistically speaking every opinion has some effect on how you behave at some point. No opinion is only felt inside and never has any impact on how you behave.

For example, someone may find gays to be "ewe the gay". That would be a private belief. But if that person never treats gays with anything other than courtesy, kindness, and respect...and then goes to the polls and votes to make gay marriage legal...is there really a problem?

I believe the point is that this doesn't happen. Just like some people keep their racism behind closed doors, but they don't really do that, as we can see tangible and very substantial effects of racism today. Even though, again, very few people say racist things out loud and everybody "keeps it to themselves."

It just isn't how it works. Bigoted opinions effect how you operate in the world whether you know it or not.

To emphasize: the problem is that your hypothetical man is not a realistic man. Bigoted opinions can and will effect how you behave even in subconscious ways you are not aware of. There are lots of ways to be homophobic that aren't as simple and obvious as direct, expressed dislike of homosexuals (or black people or jewish people or muslims etc.)

[Pollux]

And that's precisely the issue! I think that contributes to people feeling guilty/stressed/angry/perplexed over things that ultimately have no reason to be considered negative at all. Such as gay sex. Again, you as an individual may have figured out how to separate "I personally think this is sinful" from "I will vote to express my belief", and that's great. But I would rather push for a society that never thought it was sinful in the first place, since I think that would be a far more acceptable, loving, and rewarding society to live in. One likely response to this is something along the lines of "well, you might as well just ask me to not be religious anymore!" Well, I'm sure you've seen me in plenty of atheism/religion threads, so you probably know my feelings on that :D There's sometime a tendency of liberal religious believers to imply that since they're "not as bad" as wacky fundies, that means their beliefs are somehow more immune from criticism. Some of your comments seemed kind of close to that. Another similar example of this is when the "lots of religious believers accept evolution!" idea that's always brought up (even though their version of evolution is just as fanciful in some ways as stereotypical "creationism").

I really want to respond to this but I have a ton to say lol...I'll write it out in the morning when my computer is in again. But the main difference between us is that you don't believe in sin, whereas I do. A lot of the time when two people have such fundamentally different world views it can make discussion difficult since it can be hard to really get inside the head of the other person in an attempt to understand where they're coming from. For example you might think the Bishops are just bigots with regards to gay marriage. But try view the world through the lens of a 2,000 year old institution and all the intellectual and theological tradition that comes with it. It's VERY easy to demonized people like Cardinal Dolan and call him a bigot but it's much harder to actually try and understand where he's coming from. And again this comes all the way back to a fundamentally different way to view the world.

But I had to point out the irony of your statement of "liberal religious believers"...Im actually pretty traditional - mass in Latin, think Varcan II was a mediocre idea, was happy to hear about SSPX, huge fan of Benedict, etc.

And as for religion and science, despite some hiccups the Church is pretty pro-science.

[ivysaur12]

Tolerant as long it doesn't affect or harm anyone? Yes. Acceptance? No.

The right answer.

[Pollux]

What a refreshingly familiar perspective, cheers. I'm Christian, but I only concern my own person with gay/not-gay, as a strictly personal matter. I cannot think of any good argument on the secular side to be against gay rights, and that is where I believe the state should stand. The only thing I would ever oppose would be a top-down law that forces a church against their beliefs to marry a gay couple. It isn't the concern of the government to force or deny, and voters need to recognize the secular populace as well as themselves.

*brofist

Realistically speaking every opinion has some effect on how you behave at some point. No opinion is only felt inside and never has any impact on how you behave. I believe the point is that this doesn't happen. Just like some people keep their racism behind closed doors, but they don't really do that, as we can see tangible and very substantial effects of racism today. Even though, again, very few people say racist things out loud and everybody "keeps it to themselves." It just isn't how it works. Bigoted opinions effect how you operate in the world whether you know it or not. To emphasize: the problem is that your hypothetical man is not a realistic man. Bigoted opinions can and will effect how you behave even in subconscious ways you are not aware of. There are lots of ways to be homophobic that aren't as simple and obvious as direct, expressed dislike of homosexuals (or black people or jewish people or muslims etc.)

Because I view homosexual intercourse as a sin, yet still approve and vote to legalize gay marriage, am I not like the hypothetical man? And would you consider me a bigot? Honest answer, I've been called far worse so nothing will offend me.

[Opiate]

As another example, consider sexism in America. How often do you hear people publicly demeaning women at work? As in, expressly suggesting that they should be beneath men, or that they should not vote, and so forth? I'm sure you can still find the random crazy person willing to say these things out loud, but generally speaking that sort of talk is kept to quiet rooms at this point.

Those sorts of opinions are widely condemned and you'd probably be fired for expressing those views at virtually every major employer in America. And yet, a very real and substantial wage gap still exists between men and women in America, that persists even when we control for factors such as hours worked and level of education.

The point is this: even when nobody seems to be expressing these sexist views out loud -- when everyone is "keeping it to themselves" -- we see very real and substantial effects of sexism on an enormous scale across our society.

Therefore, I suggest the hypothetical man who really does keep his bigoted opinions only to himself and never lets these opinions effect his interactions with women/gays/blacks/muslims is not a real person and practically speaking never occurs, even when these bigots never express their opinions out loud.

[zoukka]

I think statements like this should be clarified, because literally every single person is attempting to "enforce their opinion" every time they vote, debate something, etc. I don't think making a blanket statement against "enforcing opinions" really gets to the heart of the issue.

Well it's just a way of thinking. As long as people aren't hurting you, you have no right to hurt them.

And a real debate isn't about forcing your opinion on someone. It's about examining and presenting ideas/facts and learning from that. Not everyone realises this of course, which is why we can't have nice things I guess.

[Flynn]

I am not tolerant of things I don't like, and I don't ask for forgiveness. People need to have thicker skin and if they take offense to my opinion they're they ones losing sleep.. not me. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.

That's why corks were invented.