[Tashbrooke]

Just The Facts: - No matter how you cut it, The Pirate Bay is ultimately just a collection of thieves. - However, its chief rival is the RIAA: An even larger and more vicious collection of thieves. Which makes TPB the lesser of two evils - kind of like Robin Hood. - Except instead of money, they're giving pornography and pirated episodes of The Celebrity Apprentice to the poor.

Sauce

Pretty interesting stuff right GAF? Thoughts? Opinions? I'm not a massive fan of piracy but i cannot see this from any other perspective, what RIAA are trying to charge is utterly ludicrous..right?

[fanboi]

In before Movies and series IS OK.

GAMES?!?! BURN IN HELL!!!!!!!!

[Darklord]

It's pretty obvious when they sue it's to gain profit rather than just trying to protect their properties. Imagine if someone stole a loaf of bread and the baker sued for $50,000? He wouldn't have a hope in hell.

[The Friendly Monster]

"No matter how you cut it, The Pirate Bay is ultimately just a collection of thieves."

Piracy is not theft.

[fanboi]

"No matter how you cut it, The Pirate Bay is ultimately just a collection of thieves." Piracy is not theft.

You would steel a car would you?

[Des0lar]

You would steel a car would you?

I would certainly download a car! Come at me!

[Ken Masters]

Piracy is stealing and illegal, the RIAA aren't perfect but funny how some people complain "how dare you infringe on my right to steal!"

[Reuenthal]

You would steel a car would you?

If we had technology that allowed us to copy as many cars as we wanted and download them, I think more than a billion of people would 'steal' them. Though among those there would be those who also buy cars instead of only downloading them. The result would be the companies which make cars perhaps losing money by some who would not have had the cars, but much more people gaining cars which gain could have economic benefits in addition to the advantage of people gaining a product they want and the disadvantage that the companies are not getting profit from people getting cars without cost.

I think the moral issue becomes somewhat irrelevant in the light of the advantages of the technology, its accessibility, that is inevitably going to be used by people and how widespread it is. And this does not apply only to piracy, laws to some extend are going to reflect or should reflect how most society (that means not violent people and not the exceptions who are what are serious criminals) behave either in how the law is followed or in regards to what the law is. This can be relevant in other issues as well such as drug laws.

So companies need to adapt to that or live with it and still make a profit. Or I guess they can try to influence politicians into a much more restrictive regime against what most people want to do and are doing. The Internet makes such high use of copyrighted material, that such attempts are going to be either weak and unsuccessful or very ugly (see SOPA, PIPA).

[fanboi]

Piracy is stealing and illegal, the RIAA aren't perfect but funny how some people complain "how dare you infringe on my right to steal!"

I think the point was that they are claming more then they lost.

[Tashbrooke]

"No matter how you cut it, The Pirate Bay is ultimately just a collection of thieves." Piracy is not theft.

I'm not attacking your statement with aggression here, but why isn't it?

I think the point was that they are claming more then they lost.

exactly, as dark lord said

Imagine if someone stole a loaf of bread and the baker sued for $50,000? He wouldn't have a hope in hell.

[Rivyn]

The problem with fighting a gang of thieves like The Piratebay is that it is unstoppable. Defeat 1 and gain 2 more in the process. Defeat 2, gain 4. Defeat 4, gain 8. Cockroaches are even easier to defeat.

[jorma]

I'm not attacking your statement with aggression here, but why isn't it? exactly, as dark lord said

because it's a copyright infringement

[Noshino]

In before Movies and series IS OK. GAMES?!?! BURN IN HELL!!!!!!!!

Even with games people find ways to justify the fact that they are pirates

It's pretty obvious when they sue it's to gain profit rather than just trying to protect their properties. Imagine if someone stole a loaf of bread and the baker sued for $50,000? He wouldn't have a hope in hell.

Is there any chance of that loaf of bread being copied and distributed (and maybe make some extra money out of it that doesn't go to the maker/creator) as many times as one wishes?

If you are worried about the penalties, then don't commit said act in the first place.

[Tashbrooke]

because it's a copyright infringement

so copyright infringement is not theft?

[jorma]

so copyright infringement is not theft?

No, it's copyright infringement, duh.

edit: you may claim that copyright infringement is like theft or that it is morally equivalent to theft, but not that it is theft. They are two different legal terms, and they mean different things.

[MC Safety]

so copyright infringement is not theft?

It's just a rationalization. Getting something of value but not paying for it.

[Emerson]

I'm not attacking your statement with aggression here, but why isn't it?

so copyright infringement is not theft?

The Supreme Court ruled that the copyright infringement does not constitute theft or stolen property. It's copyright infringement which is a very different legal entity than theft.

I don't love this argument as people tend to use it to minimize the moral concern over copyright infringement, but I agree that piracy is absolutely not "theft" by definition.

[Tashbrooke]

The Supreme Court ruled that the copyright infringement does not constitute theft or stolen property. It's copyright infringement which is a very different legal entity than theft. I don't love this argument as people tend to use it to minimize the moral concern over copyright infringement, but I agree that piracy is absolutely not "theft" by definition.

It's just a rationalization. Getting something of value but not paying for it.

No, it's copyright infringement, duh. edit: you may claim that copyright infringement is like theft or that it is morally equivalent to theft, but not that it is theft. They are two different legal terms, and they mean different things.

i honestly had no idea, i assumed as so many people say it is, that it must be...learn something new every day i guess

[ElectricBlue187]

I'm not attacking your statement with aggression here, but why isn't it?

Theft is a very narrow description of a crime in which property is stolen from someone and that act deprives the owner of that property. Copyright infringement does not fit that definition

[Ikael]

I'm not attacking your statement with aggression here, but why isn't it?

It isn't exactly thief because the adquisition of one good doesn't means the deprivation of said good for a third party. Say, the fact that I download an mp3 track doesn't mean that said mp3 is deleting from another owner's ipod, since I am duplicating a good. That puts piracy on a far more morally grey area than theft, and that's why this debate is so complex. The whole "culture wants to be free" and "one downloaded song is the same as theft" positions are both oversimplistic.

[Satch]

i honestly had no idea, i assumed as so many people say it is, that it must be...learn something new every day i guess

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

:P

[FoxSpirit]

I'm not attacking your statement with aggression here, but why isn't it? exactly, as dark lord said

Because it depends on the definition of theft. The common dfinition is along the lines of "I take something from you you didn't want to give and now you are missing it."
The one I adhere to is "Taking something that was not volutarily given." This extends to immaterial things like information.

Think about it, theft of information is just like piracy... or vice versa.

[Darklord]

Is there any chance of that loaf of bread being copied and distributed (and maybe make some extra money out of it that doesn't go to the maker/creator) as many times as one wishes? If you are worried about the penalties, then don't commit said act in the first place.

He could distribute that bread. Break it up and feed 10 people and then those 10 wouldn't buy a load them self(even though they never planned on buying it anyway). It even doesn't matter. You can't claim that one file is worth $382,000. Say it's a $5 song. That's 76,000 times what it costs.

I did a small study on piracy and found MOST weren't willing to buy the product if they couldn't get it for free.

[injurai]

Where RIAA is wrong, Is that most acts of piracy aren't lost sales. Instead most of those people would have ignore the song, game or whatever completely. Lol at Ipods being the most valuable item ever. What an inflated perception.

[Monocle]

so copyright infringement is not theft?

Theft = removing something. Piracy = copying something.

Piracy doesn't deprive someone of the pirated item, just potential profits from selling a legit copy.

[Tashbrooke]

Where RIAA is wrong, Is that most acts of piracy aren't lost sales. Instead most of those people would have ignore the song, game or whatever completely. Lol at Ipods being the most valuable item ever. What an inflated perception.

Yeah i agree with you there, i mean i have downloaded an album or two, purely due to the fact i was interested to see what it was like, if i've enjoyed the record i have either bought or recommended it or bought it as a present for a friend etc.. if it's been a shit album that i felt had no real effort put into it, nothing gained but no money wasted

[StuKen]

Theft = removing something. Piracy = copying something. Piracy doesn't deprive someone of the pirated item, just potential profits from selling a legit copy.

No, piracy is just an emotive word and has no bearing on the actual issue at hand. I suggest you investigate what actual piracy was. Armed with that knowledge you might understand its cultural resonance and it's effectiveness in labeling individuals that have a detrimental effect on vested business interests.

[Goldrusher]

In before Movies and series IS OK. GAMES?!?! BURN IN HELL!!!!!!!!

Well, software you either buy or steal. There's no in between. It's not free on the radio, you can't get it from a library and it's not shown on TV.

The creators also have no other source of income. No advertising, no theater screenings, no concert tours.

[Noshino]

He could distribute that bread. Break it up and feed 10 people and then those 10 wouldn't buy a load them self(even though they never planned on buying it anyway). It even doesn't matter. You can't claim that one file is worth $382,000. Say it's a $5 song. That's 76,000 times what it costs. I did a small study on piracy and found MOST weren't willing to buy the product if they couldn't get it for free.

yeah but breaking it apart is....well, breaking it apart. With piracy you don't break anything apart, its direct duplication of files, no loss of quality nor quantity.

If most people don't want to pay said fees as a penalty for something illegal don't do it, period. Funny thing is that most people complain after the fact.

[jorma]

Funny thing is that most people complain after the fact.

No. Most people are complaining about this, and they think that the damages awarded is maximum bullshit. Yet, most people have never been convicted for copyright infringement.

[Reuenthal]

yeah but breaking it apart is....well, breaking it apart. With piracy you don't break anything apart, its direct duplication of files, no loss of quality nor quantity. If most people don't want to pay said fees as a penalty for something illegal don't do it, period. Funny thing is that most people complain after the fact.

A basic aspect of civilized justice is for punishment to be proportional to the crime and not extraordinarily excessive. Of course another issue is if something should be a crime in the first place (and in that case where something should not be a crime, any punishment is excessive).

[Noshino]

No. Most people are complaining about this, and they think that the damages awarded is maximum bullshit. Yet, most people have never been convicted for copyright infringement.

A basic aspect of civilized justice is for punishment to be proportional to the crime.

Yes, but how do you quantify the losses of piracy when the options for illegal distribution without compensation for the owner are nearly endless?

If you don't mind me asking, what would you think is an okay amount, and why?

[B-B-Bomba!]

I'm sure the global economy is worth more than 8.3 trillion US dollars?

[Pachterballs]

that image cracked me up.

[darkwing]

I'm sure the global economy is worth more than 8.3 trillion US dollars?

the US debt alone is $15 trillion

[Complex Shadow]

i am probably not gonna come back in this thread. but imho, pirate bay isn't JUST a lesser of two evils. its a necessary evil, again its only an opinion. thanks to pirate bay and sites like pirate bay, we can have things like netflix and hulu. for some reason entertainment industry refuses to change and when when push comes to shove the consumer is gonna push back. there are people who will say that we aren't entitled to anything as an comsumer. i say thats just wrong. if anything you are entitled convenience and fair pricing. does this mean that i think stealing is ok? no, but, neither is blaming piracy for loss of customers.

edit: wasn't there a ted talks on this EXACT subject?

[ruttyboy]

Piracy is fast becoming the only consumer protection we have in the field of entertainment.

If a purchase has to be fit for purpose and the purpose of entertainment is to entertain, what happens when something isn't entertaining?

Plus at the moment shops generally won't accept refunds because you didn't like something, but at least you have a chance, when we get to the digital future and it's a full on 'no refunds' environment...

[LakeEarth]

Stack $50 to reach the moon ... TWICE!!

So.. wait why didn't you just stack $100 bills to the moon once? Was that TWICE really that important to the impact of your point?

[Mr. Luchador]

I would certainly download a car! Come at me!

Bravo. Post of the day for me. Got a good old 'Predator' laugh from me.

[BigDug13]

They need to change those commercials on DVD's then. "You wouldn't copyright infringe a car, would you?" "You wouldn't copyright infringe a purse, would you?"

They specifically call it STEALING on EVERY anti-piracy public service announcement.

[ruttyboy]

They need to change those commercials on DVD's then. "You wouldn't copyright infringe a car, would you?" "You wouldn't copyright infringe a purse, would you?" They specifically call it STEALING on EVERY anti-piracy public service announcement.

Yes, it's almost as if they might be biased in some way. Strange.

[Noshino]

i am probably not gonna come back in this thread. but imho, pirate bay isn't JUST a lesser of two evils. its a necessary evil, again its only an opinion. thanks to pirate bay and sites like pirate bay, we can have things like netflix and hulu. for some reason entertainment industry refuses to change and when when push comes to shove the consumer is gonna push back. there are people who will say that we aren't entitled to anything as an comsumer. i say thats just wrong. if anything you are entitled convenience and fair pricing. does this mean that i think stealing is ok? no, but, neither is blaming piracy for loss of customers. edit: wasn't there a ted talks on this EXACT subject?

The fact that the creator (entertainment industry) refused to do what the consumer wants does not excuse piracy. We are not talking about a necessity here, its entertainment ffs.

If you don't want it, don't buy it.
If you want it but don't agree with the terms, then don't buy it. Sometimes one has to make some tough choices to get what they want.

You want to force "convenience and fair pricing"? why not just not buy the product til you get what you want? why is it so hard for people to do that? you would be bringing forth the same changes without doing anything illegal.

People are not entitled to free movies, media, music, games, etc.

[Tashbrooke]

They need to change those commercials on DVD's then. "You wouldn't copyright infringe a car, would you?" "You wouldn't copyright infringe a purse, would you?" They specifically call it STEALING on EVERY anti-piracy public service announcement.

exactly why i have always thought that it was theft, liars!

[iNvid02]

why did i sell my ipod

[Monocle]

No, piracy is just an emotive word and has no bearing on the actual issue at hand. I suggest you investigate what actual piracy was. Armed with that knowledge you might understand its cultural resonance and it's effectiveness in labeling individuals that have a detrimental effect on vested business interests.

Why so snide? We really need to do something to resolve the sexual tension between us. It's interfering with the part of your brain that regulates communication.

[Tashbrooke]

why not just not buy the product til you get what you want? why is it so hard for people to do that?.

so you think people should waste money on products that they don't want in order to find the product they do want? In this economy?

why did i sell my ipod

lol

[Timedog]

I honestly could(n't) care less about insanely rich people complaining about getting fucked over and gaining wealth at a slightly decelerated rate if it facilitates greater societal good, when by they're fucking over everyone else constantly just by virtue of their high up place in the capitalist hierarchy. I think capitalism is an extension of evolution (just expressed in a different arena), and like evolution, we are approaching or have already reached a point where there is no longer a need for it.

Piracy is against the law, but I really don't give a fuck about the law when law breaking is for the greater societal good.

[GraveRobberX]

why did i sell my ipod

I have an iPod Touch, iPod classic, and 2 busted iPhones... So for me its: "I'm Rich, Bitch!?"

[replicashooter]

Is what this guy says true? He talks about major companies profiting off filesharing software in order to turn around and sue the end users at a later date for doing just what the app was supposed to?

[Osietra]

Stack $50 to reach the moon ... TWICE!! So.. wait why didn't you just stack $100 bills to the moon once? Was that TWICE really that important to the impact of your point?

Haha