[Dr.Acula]

Getting drugged at a bar is a myth? Precautions are not blame. Try again.

There's a lot of fear out there about being drugged, but not nearly enough is said about binge drinking. Just because you're buying your own drinks and not leaving them unattended, it doesn't protect you if you have 12 of them. Peer pressure to drink is also dangerous. You're with half-a-dozen friends, you think you'll be safe, but if everyone gets shitfaced, people can get lost. I've know people who have gotten into fights, gotten bones broken because they fell, etc. Just too many drinks.

[Devolution]

Oh come on Devo! Question: Do certain minority groups, people, avoid certain areas and locations based on true dangerous? I'm not saying women should have to avoid certain places or whatever. But would you not say that a person that is DRUNK, maybe HIGH, probably HORNY, is a dangerous person to be around? Would you hang out with a murderer? A drug dealer?

I could have been raped by any of my boyfriends. Or male friends. That would have been more likely than any drunken hook up. What does that tell you about the crime?

[Baconsammy]

Hang on let me get this straight, are people saying that by promoting methods by which women can limit their exposure to potential rape people are in act placing the blame in those that do unfortunately get raped?

That's exactly what they're saying. The level of ignorance inherent in that both staggers and scares me.

[Mumei]

No it isn't. Teaching young women to take precautions before anything happens PREVENTS RAPES. It's not a myth, and it's idiotic to insinuate that. It trivializes rape-prevention courses and education, as well as self-defense. And if you take it a step further then you're saying all prevention techniques are a waste of time, which is also utter bullshit.

The deciding factor in whether you get raped: Whether someone targets you for rape.

This insistence upon focusing upon personal responsibility of the woman as more important than the personal responsibility of the man who has raped her is what is victim blaming. It places the primary importance upon the actions of the victim. If your daughter was raped and it happened while she was drunk, was it her fault? Are you going to tell her, "I can't believe you weren't more responsible?"

[Zoramon089]

You guys are asking us to limit our lives based on the idea that we know where rapists reside or what they're up to. The fact that most women are raped by men they know means the opposite. Until rapists wear bells and whistles you're all just insulting victims or would-be victims.

Asking people to limit themselves isn't anything unreasonable as life is all about living within limitations...for college kids this is especially true. To use an analogy, not being able to walk around late at night in bad parts of town alone is a limitation most people impose on themselves. Yeah there's no guarantee of becoming a victim of a crime and even if you do it's not necessarily your fault but that doesn't mean you can't take some personal responsibility for your well being by not acting stupid

[Baconsammy]

You want to stop more rapes? Stop focusing on the victims and lets educate these students:

Hell no. There's a much better chance of stopping some rapes by teaching prevention than trying to get it through the head of someone who's pre-disposed to raping someone that what he MAY do is a bad thing. Better chance of teaching people how to better protect themselves from that asshole.

[Gaborn]

Asking people to limit themselves isn't anything unreasonable as life is all about living within limitations...for college kids this is especially true. To use an analogy, not being able to walk around late at night in bad parts of town alone is a limitation most people impose on themselves. Yeah there's no guarantee of becoming a victim of a crime and even if you do it's not necessarily your fault but that doesn't mean you can't take some personal responsibility for your well being by not acting stupid

Being a victim of a crime is NEVER the victim's fault. Stop blaming the victim.

[CrushDance]

I could have been raped by any of my boyfriends. Or male friends. That would have been more likely than any drunken hook up. What does that tell you about the crime?

That's it's still rape? Rape is rape. I'm not saying that it's right or that there are people who deserve to be raped.

[Devolution]

That's it's still rape? Rape is rape. I'm not saying that it's right or that there are people who deserve to be raped.

That prevention is a myth. The writing is on the wall. Stop telling me rape is preventable by my actions.

[samus i am]

The point is everyone is focusing on the wrong thing. This is why these girls are being raped:

"I just don't think that's rape," one of Nick's friends says of Ali's story. "I mean, the guy was definitely pushing too hard, but is that rape?" Another, who vaguely knows her from class, says she seems like "she just wants attention."

It is not the way a girl dresses or acts. We need to educate these students on what is/isn't rape.

[pompidu]

Dude speaking as a man who once said the same thing before something like this happened to me, let me say that you have no idea what you're on about. I used to think like you, and then it happened to me. You feel ashamed. You don't think people will believe you, or will be disgusted. You know that it will take a large amount of time, money, and public discussion of uncomfortable, awful memories. You find that shit load of people will flip it around on you even if it doesn't concern them. And sometimes, you just wanna move on with life because you can't keep standing in the past. You think you'd push for justice? Easier said than done.

I would never down play how a victim feels and the emotions carried after an event like that. Excuse may not of been the best term used to convey what I was saying. I imagine after an event like that your are going to harbor that fear, shame etc whether you keep it to yourself or not. It's best to try to bring justice for one's self and potential other victims by speaking up, however hard it might be. The less rapists out there, the better it is.

[CrushDance]

The deciding factor in whether you get raped: Whether someone targets you for rape. This insistence upon focusing upon personal responsibility of the woman as more important than the personal responsibility of the man who has raped her is what is victim blaming. It places the primary importance upon the actions of the victim. If your daughter was raped and it happened while she was drunk, was it her fault? Are you going to tell her, "I can't believe you weren't more responsible?"

Nobody is saying that Mumei.

That prevention is a myth. The writing is on the wall. Stop telling me rape is preventable by my actions.

I didn't say it was preventable. I said you can lower the chances. What the what. So what would happen if we threw a woman into an all male prison? What about if we threw a woman into a crowd of super drunk men? You SHOULD be able to live safely and free, but that's not the world is. There are certain situations that we all try to avoid because we know that people aren't good!

[Baconsammy]

The deciding factor in whether you get raped: Whether someone targets you for rape. This insistence upon focusing upon personal responsibility of the woman as more important than the personal responsibility of the man who has raped her is what is victim blaming. It places the primary importance upon the actions of the victim. If your daughter was raped and it happened while she was drunk, was it her fault? Are you going to tell her, "I can't believe you weren't more responsible?"

Except that's not what's being discussed now is it? You're one of the people insisting (stupidly) that teaching prevention is a myth. Will I teach my daughter prevention and self-defense? Hell yes. Will I be a complete dipshit and blame her if she still gets raped? Hell no. Don't be a fool. Calling prevention techniques a "myth" is ignorant beyond words.

[Zoramon089]

Being a victim of a crime is NEVER the victim's fault. Stop blaming the victim.

I like how this entire topic latches on to statements like that and ignores the rest of what's being said. Ok, the victims are 100% completely faultless BUT that doesn't mean they can't take responsibility for their choices.

Walking onto a busy street and getting hit by a car? Obviously it was the drivers FAULT, but the victim can take RESPONSIBILITY for their poor decision

And in this context taking responsibility would entail admitting to drinking too much too much, making an effort not to do so in the future, being a bit more cautious, etc

[Devolution]

I didn't say it was preventable. I said you can lower the chances. What the what. So what would happen if we threw a woman into an all male prison? What about if we threw a woman into a crowd of super drunk men?

I'm not lowering my chances having boyfriends and hanging around guy friends. What don't you get about the stats not backing you up?

[CrushDance]

I'm not lowering my chances having boyfriends and hanging around guy friends. What don't you get about the stats not backing you up?

Agreed. But you're improving them either by hanging around with drunk men. Hell, even I don't hang around with drunk men.

[Devolution]

Agreed. But you're improving them either by hanging around with drunk men.

So I should never enjoy alcohol with men ever. Sounds reasonable.

[iamblades]

That prevention is a myth. The writing is on the wall. Stop telling me rape is preventable by my actions.

Just because someone gets raped doesn't mean that prevention wasn't effective. Prevention can work 100 times and fail on the 101st time, that doesn't mean it is useless.

Just curious, what is your answer to this issue? Aside from 'no one rape anybody' of course, which is a bit optimistic.

The legal system can not effectively deal with these her word against his type of cases, so what are we supposed to do aside from warn women not to put themselves in situations where the legal system can't protect them?

[Timedog]

Hell no. There's a much better chance of stopping some rapes by teaching prevention than trying to get it through the head of someone who's pre-disposed to raping someone that what he MAY do is a bad thing. Better chance of teaching people how to better protect themselves from that asshole.

If you really want to prevent rape, just tell women they need to be locked in their rooms (and hope no one in their family is a rapist). Chastity belts with locks help too. Silly women trying to have fun and freedom, Trix are for men.

[Gaborn]

Agreed. But you're improving them either by hanging around with drunk men. Hell, even I don't hang around with drunk men.

But is SHE the problem then or is the problem that drunk men are more likely to rape women?

[no angel]

That's exactly what they're saying. The level of ignorance inherent in that both staggers and scares me.

That's....an interesting point of view.

I'm going to start driving around without a seatbelt on because wearing one implies that any accidents I have would be my fault.

[MWS Natural]

We plan to meet for coffee the next day because everyone is too wasted to speak coherently about Missoula's least favorite subject, although one guy — who says he's "not the right person to ask" about rape because he's "a good guy" — does tell me that girls are confusing. "For example," he slurs, "Lots of times girls have invited me over to watch a movie, saying ‘nothing will happen,' and then I've pounded them."

Uh..welcome to...everywhere USA?

[CrushDance]

So I should never enjoy alcohol with men ever. Sounds reasonable.

Exactly what I said!

But is SHE the problem then or is the problem that drunk men are more likely to rape women?

No. The problem is that men are going to rape whether they want too or not. But that by being surrounded by drunk men, it's more likely.

[Devolution]

Exactly what I said!

And what you said is stupid.

[SuperBonk]

I'm curious, what are the actual statistics on how most rapes occur? It seems like a major disconnect here is that many people think the majority of rapes occur by meeting someone new at a bar/party at night where heavy drinking is involved.

[Eschaton]

I would never down play how a victim feels and the emotions carried after an event like that. Excuse may not of been the best term used to convey what I was saying. I imagine after an event like that your are going to harbor that fear, shame etc whether you keep it to yourself or not. It's best to try to bring justice for one's self and potential other victims by speaking up, however hard it might be. The less rapists out there, the better it is.

FYI my incident took place in a random interaction, in a travel visit in a different state, with GHB+viagra drugging and no real physical evidence of non-consensual sex. Cops don't take male rape victims seriously, no one seems to really. My situation was fucked from the get go. It sounds like the easy way out. It's not. For me it was a slow realization that I either have to wade through mountains of bullshit or just let it go. Its more than just a matter of emotion.

[Gaborn]

Exactly what I said! No. The problem is that men are going to rape whether they want too or not. But that by being surrounded by drunk men, it's more likely.

So what needs to be done? Simply keep women away from drunk men? Or perhaps get through to men that this culture of rape is not acceptable?

[Baconsammy]

That's....an interesting point of view. I'm going to start driving around without a seatbelt on because wearing one implies that any accidents I have would be my fault.

Pretty much.

[samus i am]

I'm curious, what are the actual statistics on how most rapes occur? It seems like a major disconnect here is that many people think the majority of rapes occur by meeting someone new at a bar/party at night where heavy drinking is involved.

I'm glad you brought that up. Their "common sense" reasoning is baseless and not backed up by data.

[Mumei]

If you really want to prevent rape, just tell women they need to be locked in their rooms (and hope no one in their family is a rapist). Chastity belts with locks help too. Silly women trying to have fun and freedom, Trix are for men.

Hey, someone who gets it.

Rape prevention is a myth. You don't even meaningfully lower your chances of being raped by doing the things you guys are talking about. 80 percent of victims know their attacker. 57 percent of rapes occur on dates. Attackers are usually in a position of trust and occur on a second or third date.

So presumably you guys think that women should never go on dates (and certainly never a second or third) and should never be alone with any man (especially men they trust)?

Maybe we could require female chaperones, too.

[CrushDance]

And what you said is stupid.

So now we're insulting each other huh? Shame on you. If you disagree with me, hash it out; don't stoop to insulting me to "make your point". I thought you were a respectful and open minded poster.

So what needs to be done? Simply keep women away from drunk men? Or perhaps get through to men that this culture of rape is not acceptable?

I posed the same question before. I don't know. All I know is that there are bad people, who will specifically target women. And nothing anyone can do can stop them if they want too. If we had that answer, the world would be a better place.

[Riggs]

And what you said is stupid.

Crushed is not some rape apologist. Some of these posters are. I think you should limit the wrath (and justified wrath don't get me wrong) towards those who deserve it.

[Baconsammy]

If you really want to prevent rape, just tell women they need to be locked in their rooms (and hope no one in their family is a rapist). Chastity belts with locks help too. Silly women trying to have fun and freedom, Trix are for men.

Sure, you could go to the dumbest of extremes if you want. Or you can be smart and live life.

So now we're insulting each other huh? Shame on you. If you disagree with me, hash it out; don't stoop to insulting me to "make your point". I thought you were a respectful and open minded poster.

They've been doing it for the entire thread. Not sure why you think that would change now. Kinda makes it hard to have a real conversation, though, eh?

[no angel]

Crushed is not some rape apologist. Some of these posters are. I think you should limit the wrath (and justified wrath don't get me wrong) towards those who deserve it.

This is another new one, what's a rape apologogist?

[iamblades]

I'm curious, what are the actual statistics on how most rapes occur? It seems like a major disconnect here is that many people think the majority of rapes occur by meeting someone new at a bar/party at night where heavy drinking is involved.

I think that's just because those are the types of things discussed in the article, I'm not of the opinion that that represents the majority or even a significant plurality of rapes. They are just the ones the legal system has the hardest time dealing with.

[Odrion]

So what needs to be done? Simply keep women away from drunk men? Or perhaps get through to men that this culture of rape is not acceptable?

feed rapists to wild boars

[SuperBonk]

So what needs to be done? Simply keep women away from drunk men? Or perhaps get through to men that this culture of rape is not acceptable?

The idea of there being a "rape culture" always seemed so stupid to me because the thought of blaming anyone but the rapist sounded so staggeringly stupid that I thought only a fringe, insane portion of society would actually hold that belief.

I guess I was wrong.

[Gaborn]

I posed the same question before. I don't know. All I know is that there are bad people, who will specifically target women. And nothing anyone can do can stop them if they want too. If we had that answer, the world would be a better place.

What about harsher penalties for rapists? What about teaching men that rape is unacceptable and no means no? I think that "date rape" in particular needs to see a crackdown. Perhaps after the first drunken frat boy gets 25 years in prison there would be a rethink.

[Devolution]

So now we're insulting each other huh? Shame on you. If you disagree with me, hash it out; don't stoop to insulting me to "make your point". I thought you were a respectful and open minded poster.

What's the point in telling me I shouldn't drink with men ever as something women should just start doing? What's the point in focusing the energy on limiting what women do in hopes rape will stop happening? Why are you punishing me?

[Riggs]

This is another new one, what's a rape apologogist?

I don't know anything anymore just pretend you didn't see me enter this thread lol.

[Odrion]

The idea of there being a "rape culture" always seemed so stupid to me because the thought of blaming anyone but the rapist sounded so staggeringly stupid that I thought only a fringe, insane portion of society would actually hold that belief. I guess I was wrong.

YES. YOU WERE.

[CrushDance]

What about harsher penalties for rapists? What about teaching men that rape is unacceptable and no means no? I think that "date rape" in particular needs to see a crackdown. Perhaps after the first drunken frat boy gets 25 years in prison there would be a rethink.

I'm all for that. I've prevented a rape myself in the past at a club. But remember I also said that the problem is inherent with how we view sexuality. changing that is going to be very difficult.

What's the point in telling me I shouldn't drink with men ever as something women should just start doing? What's the point in focusing the energy on limiting what women do in hopes rape will stop happening? Why are you punishing me?

Devo. I'm not discussing this with you anymore. I did not say women are to blame for being raped, I did not say the way a woman dresses or acts is reason to rape her. I did not say that women must must than restrict themselves. All I said was that I will tell my children to watch out for various types of threats and do their best to avoid them. I won't blame them, I don't blame anyone but the person who CHOOSES to harm another. But I also acknowledge that there are people who have no qualms doing so. I don't have an solution for rape, if I did; I'd have a peace prize. All I have is my own experiences and experiences of people I know to mold my behaviour and attitude towards the hyper charged sexual culture that we have.

When someone is leaving and one says "Be safe", "Be careful". It doesn't mean that something is going to happen. It means to simply be observant and look after yourself the best you can. not that you're to blame if something happens.

[pompidu]

FYI my incident took place in a random interaction, in a travel visit in a different state, with GHB+viagra drugging and no real physical evidence of non-consensual sex. Cops don't take male rape victims seriously, no one seems to really. My situation was fucked from the get go. It sounds like the easy way out. It's not. For me it was a slow realization that I either have to wade through mountains of bullshit or just let it go. Its more than just a matter of emotion.

Damn, i feel for you. Really messed up that rapes, especially for males, is not taken seriously. We need to move society in a direction that fosters rape victims to come forward. We need awareness about these issues so theses perps can be caught and not allowed to roam around.

[Cipherr]

They were asking for it.

[iamblades]

Hey, someone who gets it. Rape prevention is a myth. You don't even meaningfully lower your chances of being raped by doing the things you guys are talking about. 80 percent of victims know their attacker. 57 percent of rapes occur on dates. Attackers are usually in a position of trust and occur on a second or third date. So presumably you guys think that women should never go on dates (and certainly never a second or third) and should never be alone with any man (especially men they trust)? Maybe we could require female chaperones, too.

We are discussing the types of anecdotes that were in the article, we are not talking broadly about the problem of rape as a whole.

Also where are your statistics taken from? Are they all accusations, all charges filed, convictions, or estimated including unreported rapes? Because depending on where they are from there could be all kinds of biases (not the political type, the mathematical type) in them.

[Devolution]

Damn, i feel for you. Really messed up that rapes, especially for males, is not taken seriously. We need to move society in a direction that fosters rape victims to come forward. We need awareness about these issues so theses perps can be caught and not allowed to roam around.

Yes. We do.

[Gaborn]

I'm all for that. I've prevented a rape myself in the past at a club. But remember I also said that the problem is inherent with how we view sexuality. changing that is going to be very difficult.

That's why education IS important. GAF skews to young males and that's an important demographic to speak to. Some GAFers are already married with children. Some aren't. Some might never have children, some will. But we're in a good demographic to at least think about how we would raise our kids if we have them (assuming we don't already. That's part of what makes these conversations important. The way you raise your children might contribute to the rape statistics of the next generation either positively or negatively.

[Baconsammy]

Are we blaming motorcyclists who are wearing a helmet when they get hit by a drunk driver and die? Should we tell them to forget the helmets, because instead we'll just teach everyone that drinking and driving is a bad thing and then hope that everyone listened? No need for that preventative measure of wearing the helmet and pads. The same fools that will accuse the cyclist of being an idiot for riding the motorcycle are the same ones that will still blame the rape victims. Prevention serves a purpose. Not a myth. It's not a 100 percent cure-all, but it most definitely is not a myth.

[Timedog]

Sure, you could go to the dumbest of extremes if you want. Or you can be smart and live life.

Okay, so what you're saying is that it's okay to put blame onto the victim up until some magical line is drawn where suddenly protecting yourself becomes too much of a burden, then it's suddenly not okay to put blame onto the victim. Please, could you elaborate on this "Baconsammy Line"? Please, I'd like to hear more about the arbitrary point at which you decide taking away women's freedoms is just going too far.

[Devolution]

Are we blaming motorcyclists who are wearing a helmet when they get hit by a drunk driver and die? Should we tell them to forget the helmets, because instead we'll just teach everyone that drinking and driving is a bad thing and then hope that everyone listened? No need for that preventative measure of wearing the helmet and pads. The same fools that will accuse the cyclist of being an idiot for riding the motorcycle are the same ones that will still blame the rapists. Prevention serves a purpose. Not a myth. It's not a 100 percent cure-all, but it most definitely is not a myth.

What's next? Property theft as an analogy?