[Minsc]

Having said that, the rest of the game was a blast. I never played this sort of first person dungeon crawler back in the day, and kind of feel like I missed out. Looking for hidden switches was ridiculously satisfying. Minotaur rogue archer with the head hunter perk, lurker armor, and enchanted frost arrows was the best decision I've ever made in an rpg.

If you're quick and looking for more you can still pick up another great dungeon crawler, that gives a bit of a different experience, Lands of Lore 1, for 1/2 off. All sorts of secrets in that one too, tons of things to click on, and outdoor areas with shops to buy/sell items and a fun story. Great game, but doesn't have quite as intelligent puzzles or flashy effects.

[Pachterballs]

You're using a particular encounter to talk about the entire game, an encounter specifically setup to overwhelm you if you stick around to fight. Go back and read the warnings at the start of the area. "Trespassers will be hunted." or something like that. You're not supposed to fight those lizards straight up, you're supposed to run for your lives through that area, looking for a door you can close behind you to stop the hunters. You don't have to door exploit to kill them if you don't want to, you don't even have to kill them at all if you don't want to. There is an airlock of sorts at the other end in which you can trap the currently spawned group while you are then safe to explore the rest of the area. It isn't representative of every encounter in the game, nor is it indicative of overall balance.

um
same thing with the crab. (from earlier)

and also with the spiders. and some of the ummguardians


I think most of the combat in this game is this

a) if you can fight 1:1 and have a 4x square - you'll be square dancing
b) otherwise. door.

its kind of cheap.

reading about he min/maxing makes me wish I'd tailored my characters. There really isn't any merit to diversification of skills in this as the points are so precious.

[Brashnir]

a) if you can fight 1:1 and have a 4x square - you'll be square dancing b) otherwise. door. its kind of cheap.

This. I picked up the game ready to enjoy it, but couldn't because of this aspect of the combat. It felt like an "exploit or lose" combat system rather than anything approaching any real tactical depth.

[DangerousDave]

This. I picked up the game ready to enjoy it, but couldn't because of this aspect of the combat. It felt like an "exploit or lose" combat system rather than anything approaching any real tactical depth.

Well, it was the common way for real time tile based dungeon crawlers at 80's and early 90's. I know that this is not an excuse, but it's part of the experience.

My only complain on this is that enemies have a very short cooldown on attacks. You can have cooldowns of 10 seconds, but most enemies, when they don't have to move, repeat the attacks each 2 seconds. Quite annoying.

[SatelliteOfLove]

Finished this one earlier. Massively great game. I liked how later on, beating puzzles netted you an ambush of enemies, and defeating a pack of enemies greeted you with a puzzle. Loved importing Etrian Odyssey portraits too. Good times.

Just in case they let us import our party into the DLC (or any potential sequels) I started a second playthrough to min max my guys far better then my first run did. I take back all the bad things I said about archery now. If you make a minotaur rogue and go full str and give him headhunter he does ridonkulous damage. He was out damaging my end game rogue (equipped with the best bow in the game) with a freaking sling at lvl 2.

^^^ Man knows some shit here.

I went with Lizardman Mace Fighter with heavy armor, Human Ax Warrior, Thrower Mino Rogue, and Human Ice mage with some points in Spellcraft. Shit just dies.

This. I picked up the game ready to enjoy it, but couldn't because of this aspect of the combat. It felt like an "exploit or lose" combat system rather than anything approaching any real tactical depth.

This is what games where your characters are not inately all-powerful, full-resourced gods behave like; you must make the game easier, not harder. That, and you will BEG to be able to use that trick again soon...hehehehe.

[Brashnir]

This is what games where your characters are not inately all-powerful, full-resourced gods behave like; you must make the game easier, not harder. That, and you will BEG to be able to use that trick again soon...hehehehe.

I don't mind a game that is a challenge. I do mind a game that makes me feel like I have to break it in order to progress. Verisimilitude is important, and I want my tactics to make some sort of sense. In addition not only are these tactics immersion-breaking, but they're also boring as fuck and take forever.

and no I won't, because I will not continue playing this shit game

[Inkwell]

I don't mind a game that is a challenge. I do mind a game that makes me feel like I have to break it in order to progress. Verisimilitude is important, and I want my tactics to make some sort of sense. In addition not only are these tactics immersion-breaking, but they're also boring as fuck and take forever. and no I won't, because I will not continue playing this shit game

Grimrock isn't exactly the prime example of tactical game play. Just realize that later enemies do take your "square dancing" into account. You will also start to fight higher numbers of enemies at once. It becomes difficult to do that when you're more worried about not getting surrounded and trapped. There are definitely some situations where you have to plan ahead and be a bit more tactical.

Combat is definitely not perfect, but there's more to the game than that. Personally, I enjoyed exploration, avoiding traps, solving puzzles, searching for secrets, and upgrading my skills and equipment more than the combat. If you don't like anything the game has to offer then I guess don't play it. Completely understandable for what the game is. I just hope you gave the game a fair shot to see all it has to offer.

[Brashnir]

Grimrock isn't exactly the prime example of tactical game play. Just realize that later enemies do take your "square dancing" into account. You will also start to fight higher numbers of enemies at once. It becomes difficult to do that when you're more worried about not getting surrounded and trapped. There are definitely some situations where you have to plan ahead and be a bit more tactical. Combat is definitely not perfect, but there's more to the game than that. Personally, I enjoyed exploration, avoiding traps, solving puzzles, searching for secrets, and upgrading my skills and equipment more than the combat. If you don't like anything the game has to offer then I guess don't play it. Completely understandable for what the game is. I just hope you gave the game a fair shot to see all it has to offer.

I thought the puzzle and loot aspects of the game were moderately appealing, but not compelling enough to force myself to drudge through the un-fun, interminable combat. If the combat was boring and fast, it may have been tolerable, but it's both boring and slow, which is a crippling flaw as far as I'm concerned.

[Ledsen]

I don't mind a game that is a challenge. I do mind a game that makes me feel like I have to break it in order to progress. Verisimilitude is important, and I want my tactics to make some sort of sense. In addition not only are these tactics immersion-breaking, but they're also boring as fuck and take forever. and no I won't, because I will not continue playing this shit game

So you didn't play far enough to realize that your assumptions about the combat are actually not true? You can circle strafe all you want in the beginning, and then you meet enemies that are built around countering exactly that. Combat becomes more about movement and quick reactions and less about repeating patterns. Writing it off as a "shit game" before even getting that far seems pretty hasty. One more thing, battles aren't supposed to take very long, unless your party is too weak for the enemy you're fighting.

[Freakinchair]

So you didn't play far enough to realize that your assumptions about the combat are actually not true? You can circle strafe all you want in the beginning, and then you meet enemies that are built around countering exactly that. Writing it off as a "shit game" before even getting that far seems pretty hasty. One more thing, battles aren't supposed to take very long, unless your party is too weak for the enemy you're fighting.

Exactly - so many people complaining that theyre "breaking the game" when the developers completely intended you to play like that. Just continue on and you'll see that the game may break you.

[Brashnir]

Exactly - so many people complaining that theyre "breaking the game" when the developers completely intended you to play like that. Just continue on and you'll see that the game may break you.

Intending the player to use stupid and unfun tactics is bad game design.

And how long am I supposed to play a game before I decide it sucks? My Steam counter shows 5.5 hours played. Plenty of good games are over by that point.

[ctrayne]

.

[KarmaCow]

So you didn't play far enough to realize that your assumptions about the combat are actually not true? You can circle strafe all you want in the beginning, and then you meet enemies that are built around countering exactly that. Combat becomes more about movement and quick reactions and less about repeating patterns. Writing it off as a "shit game" before even getting that far seems pretty hasty. One more thing, battles aren't supposed to take very long, unless your party is too weak for the enemy you're fighting.

What enemies are built to counter the strafing tactic? The only one that comes close is the mushroom that spits out poison clouds and that hardly breaks strafing. The only real counter to the strafing is more than one enemy and tight spaces.

[Brashnir]

Well, like others said, lots of 90s dungeon crawlers played the same way, and people like it for what it is. LoG is a tribute to those games. If you don't like it, don't worry about it and play something else.

I played a ton of old dungeon crawlers (I probably spent more time in my youth than I care to admit playing old gold box games and Eye of the Beholder), and I can't recall any that had combat as insipid as this.

What enemies are built to counter the strafing tactic? The only one that comes close is the mushroom that spits out poison clouds and that hardly breaks strafing. The only real counter to the strafing is more than one enemy and tight spaces.

Yeah, those guys were fun. Run to one end of room, hit ranged attack(s), run to other room, hit ranged attacks, pick up ammo while doing laps for 20 minutes. The height of gripping gameplay.

[ctrayne]

.

[Minsc]

Yeah, those guys were fun. Run to one end of room, hit ranged attack(s), run to other room, hit ranged attacks, pick up ammo while doing laps for 20 minutes. The height of gripping gameplay.

Maybe you spec'd / leveled your characters poorly or missed a lot of the better equipment (it's tucked away in secrets)? My Minotaur frequently can 1-hit kill weaker/normal enemies on level 7 with crits, and even without them it's very rare for an enemy to survive more than 2 rounds of attacks from my party. Playing on normal though. I'm usually hitting in the 100s for damage, unless I use missile weapons which I didn't specialize with, then it's very low, like 5-20.

[Ledsen]

What enemies are built to counter the strafing tactic? The only one that comes close is the mushroom that spits out poison clouds and that hardly breaks strafing. The only real counter to the strafing is more than one enemy and tight spaces.

Mushroom guy, crab and troll are the ones I've encountered, and that's only at floor 7.

[KarmaCow]

Mushroom guy, crab and troll are the ones I've encountered, and that's only at floor 7.

Why crabs? The can walk sideways, but the principle is the same.

As for trolls, are you attacking them from the side? The can't move sideways so you can get behind them easily. The one you encounter on level 6 is a complete joke because of the huge open area. You can just let him charge into a walls or just constantly strafe around him.

[Ledsen]

Why crabs? The can walk sideways, but the principle is the same. As for trolls, are you attacking them from the side? The can't move sideways so you can get behind them easily. The one you encounter on level 6 is a complete joke because of the huge open area. You can just let him charge into a walls or just constantly strafe around him.

Crabs because they walk sideways, so you can't just mindlessly circle strafe them. Trolls, because they can strike sideways.

[TucoBenedictoPacifico]

I played a ton of old dungeon crawlers (I probably spent more time in my youth than I care to admit playing old gold box games and Eye of the Beholder), and I can't recall any that had combat as insipid as this.

Unless you are thinking about turn based games like Wizardry 8, your memory is WRONG.

Yeah, those guys were fun. Run to one end of room, hit ranged attack(s), run to other room, hit ranged attacks, pick up ammo while doing laps for 20 minutes. The height of gripping gameplay.

It actually sounds like you're no capable of playing this game at all.

[Cheech]

Nobody should be playing this game for the combat. FFS. These games were never about combat.

[Ledsen]

Yeah, those guys were fun. Run to one end of room, hit ranged attack(s), run to other room, hit ranged attacks, pick up ammo while doing laps for 20 minutes. The height of gripping gameplay.

20 mins? What the hell were you doing? It takes me 10-20 seconds to kill one of them.

[marrec]

What enemies are built to counter the strafing tactic? The only one that comes close is the mushroom that spits out poison clouds and that hardly breaks strafing. The only real counter to the strafing is more than one enemy and tight spaces.

The Floaty Flame Guys are pretty annoying because unless they have to they won't engage you in melee combat. That just means you either have to chase them down or wait them out. Or just ranged them to death.

[scy]

Yeah, those guys were fun. Run to one end of room, hit ranged attack(s), run to other room, hit ranged attacks, pick up ammo while doing laps for 20 minutes. The height of gripping gameplay.

Meanwhile, my two playthroughs have had issues with killing enemies too fast. Barring maybe three enemies in the game, most enemies have really low HP values next to your potential damage output.

I'm going to have to say you're just doing something wrong, honestly.

[Finalow]

Run to one end of room, hit ranged attack(s), run to other room, hit ranged attacks, pick up ammo while doing laps for 20 minutes. The height of gripping gameplay.

you're doing something wrong indeed, probably bad equipment and skills.

[WanderingWind]

My experiences with this has been

"AWESOME"
"FUCK THIS GAME"
"AWESOME!"

Etc.

I never liked RPGs with food limits like this, but other than that, this thing is pretty much S&M style sexy fun times. It's been the only game to really knock me away from my MTG addiction.

[Ledsen]

To my shame I've started cheating a bit. If I clear a floor and haven't opened the iron door, I look it up. I also check if I missed any secrets, although that's mostly for curiosity's sake since I normally don't bother getting them. I also looked up how to get into that damn vault.

[Pachterballs]

reset the game with

2 lizardman fighter
minotaur rogue
insectoid spellcaster

and its pretty hard hitting. Even the early knight which was a pain die so easily. I can throw a rock from the mino (throw @ 0) and the damage is 20+.

dont use the default dudes

[Im_Special]

If we are talking the most optimal party setups, I don't think they get much better then mine.

Sword Fighter Lizardman, max dex, remaining points in strength, agile and skilled, start with all points in swords.
Unarmed Rogue Lizardman, max dex, remaining points in strength, agile and fist fighter, start with all points in unarmed.
Fire Mage Insectoid, max willpower, remaining points in vitality, strong mind and aura, start with 2 points in fire and 1 in spellcraft.
Missile Rogue Minotaur, max strength, remaining points in vitality, headhunter and aggressive, start with a whole point in missile weapons.

I took a bunch of screen shots at the end of my hard game, and they absolutely destroyed everything, I took 1 round to killed the the final boss when he was damageable.

Anyway more info in my screenshots for those interested here.

[Pachterballs]

got to the blue dino area - the bit I was bitching about with my old party. Yeah, you can't play with the party they give you. With the "A" team, I'm cleaning up! Makes it play like "normal" mode if that makes any sense. Just the right whiff of challenge to not be annoying. haven't had to rely on doors too much.

[Ledsen]

So I'm on the last floor and a giant cube is chasing me down. All the doors are locked and I have no keys. A scroll said that "the gates would open" when the "prisoner is freed" or something. Seems like I freed him, but no gates flew open :( Any hints for me?

[Maedhros]

So I'm on the last floor and a giant cube is chasing me down. All the doors are locked and I have no keys. A scroll said that "the gates would open" when the "prisoner is freed" or something. Seems like I freed him, but no gates flew open :( Any hints for me?

Look for the portal that opened in the same room.

[Ledsen]

All done! What a fantastic game. The hype made me buy the Might & Magic series, Stonekeep and the Lands of Lore games on GOG, and finally start playing The Quest on my iPhone (loving it). It lived up to the hype, and made me fall in love with a genre whose games I'd previously only experienced through glorious screenshots in PC gaming magazines when I was a young kid in the mid 90's. The atmosphere in this game is what makes me love it, and there is one moment especially where I felt the hairs on my arms standing up from the emotional reaction I was having. The never-ending spiral corridor on (I think?) level 10, with the surprise ogres in it. The ogres weren't what scared me, the corridor itself was. What a masterful build-up to what was, sadly, a pretty disappointing final level and boss. Apart from the atmosphere, which was undeniably the key selling point for this game, I also loved the puzzle-solving and the combat. Very refreshing combination of turn-based and real-time, with quick reflexes and quick thinking needed to get out of some sticky situations. This game should be used as a schoolbook example of solid game design. I encourage everyone on the fence to go out and buy this immediately!

[mclem]

Just making a start on this (Minotaur warrior, Lizard rogue, human mage, insect mage). Already hit my personal annoyance on selfmapping - running out of page. Oh well.

In the case of unarmed rogues in the early stages, how can I determine if it's worth using a weapon for now? Is it simply an attack power difference (in which case I'm getting little AP gain from empty hands).

Also, do you only get the unarmed benefits if *both* hands are empty, even if you only attack with the empty one?

[Toma]

Since it hasnt been mentioned yet, preview screenshot of the Editor :)



This looks miiiiiiighty good, unfortunately still a bit off with no date attached. Current done/todo list:

Hi! The progress thread for patch 1.1.4 was pretty popular so I thought why not create a similar thread for the upcoming dungeon editor! The work started today so there's plenty of work remaining. I don't want to give an ETA yet because the scale of the project is a bit unclear at this point. Done: - Initial planning - Script editor - Design for entity serialization in game readable format - Integrated dungeon editor into game code base - New IMGUI implementation - Clean up global variables in code editor - Map view - Tool bar - Selection tool - Wall drawing tool - Place new object tool - Asset browser (with filtering by tags) - Object inspector - Object inspector properties for most entities - IMGUI text box control - IMGUI combobox control - Entity serialization - Clean up gui layout and add panel graphics - Entity icons - Editing the facing of entities - Object deletion - Move selected object using arrow keys - Assigning custom object identifiers for scripting, e.g. "treasuryDoor" instead of "iron_door_20_15_0" - Load/Save dungeon - List all entities under mouse cursor - Preview mode - Support for more than one level - Autocompletion for lock opened by property - Adding items to alcoves - "Add torch" check box for torch holders - The entire dungeon created by the editor stored in a single document - Removing objects from alcoves - Placing items on altars and inside container items - Fixed IMGUI drawing order bugs with combobox and autobox controls - Added movable splitters between panels - Map view scrollbars and centering - Script editor error bubbles Work in progress: - New map view graphics - Scripting errors crash the editor (starting preview no longer crashes but runtime errors still do) Todo: - Selecting a single entity from a square containing multiple entities - Multiselect - Pillars - Teleport target gizmo - Rectangle selection - Handle duplicate entity identifiers gracefully - Add support for user made dungeons to New Game dialog - Remove "$wallset" support from dungeon objects - Consider adding new entity type, door frame - String quotation (e.g. wall texts currently can't contain [[, ]] or ") - Monster groups - Automatically adjusting the gui layout for different resolutions - Exporting and packaging the dungeon to game readable format - Map properties (name, wallset)

[Songbird]

Thanks Toma! The fact that users can script is very exciting.

[Clever Pun]

Looks great - I doubt I'll ever create with it, but I look forward to some great fan campaigns.

[SatelliteOfLove]

Can't wait to delve into the twisted hellholes people come up with. Make it nasty!

[mclem]

Finished the game last night. Took me a little longer than some; about 20 hours. Normal difficulty, with oldschooliness. Fighter, Rogue, Mage, Mage.

If anything, I was too much of a hoarder. Was left with loads of torches I never used, and a lot of (often heavy) food that went uneaten; there was also a longish time where I was undecided whether to give my rogue light armour or go all-out evasion on him so lugged the other set around for a bit.

Endgame spoilers:

Paid the price for skirting so close to turtle status in floor 13, when I was trying to lug around some very heavy parts, *plus* various supplies found in that floor. When I moved back to floor 11 and things calmed down, I had to spend a little time in the antechamber just rearranging my items and getting able to move rapidly again

I can't help but feel that it's strangely appropriate that in a dungeon crawl where you've been dealing with walls and corridors for an age, the final boss is effectively an angry wall. I did think the villain might end up being Toorum for a while, actually, up until I found (and dealt with!) his corpse.


So, in plot terms, I think I'm missing something: What was Grimrock *for*? I get that it was a prison to house The Undying, but why - as Toorum observed - was it built in a way to funnel people down to floor 12? What's the advantage in that design? If it was "to hopefully get someone there to take the weapon and kill the Undying"... why not do that *first*?

Fun final observation: One of the comments on one of the scrolls in the tomb of the designers (I think it was) refers to using how they used the weapon in the past against the cubes.

Plural.

[Toma]

Alright, I tried it for 2 hours now.

The iron door in level 7. The puzzle. WHAAAAAT the fuck.
Where you are trying to stop 3 balls of energy coming towards their corresponding switches so that you can open the Iron door

I tried it the normal way, by reloading before the "Puzzle" starts, and I tried it by quicksaving when I dont need to immediately sidestep. Nothing works. I am basically always screwed at the last point you need to get from left to right before the final one in the middle. I cant do it.

I also got the impression that there is a way to walk faster from youtube vids? My guys arent hungry but in YT vids it seems like people walk away from a tile without even completely standing on it. Might just be my imagination, but I cant fucking doooo iiiiit.

My best tactics atm is just pushing down left or right long enough so that he walks to the other side in exactly two steps and then go the other direction. Is that not fast enough? Seriously, I'd appreciate some hints.

[Toma]

Alright, I tried it for 2 hours now. The iron door in level 7. The puzzle. WHAAAAAT the fuck. Where you are trying to stop 3 balls of energy coming towards their corresponding switches so that you can open the Iron door I tried it the normal way, by reloading before the "Puzzle" starts, and I tried it by quicksaving when I dont need to immediately sidestep. Nothing works. I am basically always screwed at the last point you need to get from left to right before the final one in the middle. I cant do it. I also got the impression that there is a way to walk faster from youtube vids? My guys arent hungry but in YT vids it seems like people walk away from a tile without even completely standing on it. Might just be my imagination, but I cant fucking doooo iiiiit. My best tactics atm is just pushing down left or right long enough so that he walks to the other side in exactly two steps and then go the other direction. Is that not fast enough? Seriously, I'd appreciate some hints.

Just did it.. by luring an enemy into the whole thing and using it to block off shots while reloading if I died from its attacks.

Felt a bit cheap.. but holy fuck, what a nasty puzzle.

[SatelliteOfLove]

Alright, I tried it for 2 hours now. The iron door in level 7. The puzzle. WHAAAAAT the fuck. Where you are trying to stop 3 balls of energy coming towards their corresponding switches so that you can open the Iron door I tried it the normal way, by reloading before the "Puzzle" starts, and I tried it by quicksaving when I dont need to immediately sidestep. Nothing works. I am basically always screwed at the last point you need to get from left to right before the final one in the middle. I cant do it. I also got the impression that there is a way to walk faster from youtube vids? My guys arent hungry but in YT vids it seems like people walk away from a tile without even completely standing on it. Might just be my imagination, but I cant fucking doooo iiiiit. My best tactics atm is just pushing down left or right long enough so that he walks to the other side in exactly two steps and then go the other direction. Is that not fast enough? Seriously, I'd appreciate some hints.

You definately need a deft touch to that one after acclimating to the squirrely movement the game has.

[Songbird]

Antti has released a sneak peak of the level editor. Take a look!

[Andiie]

Antti has released a sneak peak of the level editor. Take a look!

Looks amazing. Shows how easy it'd be to create your own dungeons. Very impressive editor.

[Holden]

hype hype hype!

can't wait :)

[Minsc]

Looks amazing. Shows how easy it'd be to create your own dungeons. Very impressive editor.

Yes, very nice. Hopefully tile sets and new enemies aren't out of the question, if not at release then down the road.

[Chittagong]

I am in level 6, having a blast but regretting of having the female assassin in my group. I mean, does she ever learn to do anything remotely of value..? Should have had a second mage.

[Songbird]

I am in level 6, having a blast but regretting of having the female assassin in my group. I mean, does she ever learn to do anything remotely of value..? Should have had a second mage.

I've not used the default party, so I'm not sure what skills she has. In essence, assassination lets her fight in melee from the back row and dodging lets her scrap in the front. With increased strength ranged damage increases, so try that?

Within each offensive skill there are special attacks that can proc, so get one of those ASAP?

[Songbird]

Just a reminder, Grimrock is a Steam daily deal today! I'm looking forward to newbies' experiences.

[Thrakier]

Well, here is one:

So far I really do like it but isn't the fighting a bit tedious? It may be that I just don't get it right now. Any general tips for something new to the game and the genre?