[Mumei]

And do me a favor, get off your damn pedestal and stop judging other people for how they've chosen to approach this topic. If you want to talk about one specific area of conversation, create a topic and express the guidelines that you want everyone to adhere to. You complain about moralizing, yet ironically it's what you're seemingly most keen on doing yourself.

He was complaining about legalistic moralizing, actually.

One of the many problems we have - including problems with attitudes - is precisely what Gaborn said: That they reinforce established cultural norms. That's why we've been trying to have a discussion about right / wrong in these cases. I don't think he's on a pedestal; he just recognized that we were going to be talking at cross-purposes as long as your focus was on "is" rather than "ought."

[Baconsammy]

He was complaining about legalistic moralizing, actually. One of the many problems we have - including problems with attitudes - is precisely what Gaborn said: That they reinforce established cultural norms. That's why we've been trying to have a discussion about right / wrong in these cases. I don't think he's on a pedestal; he just recognized that we were going to be talking at cross-purposes as long as your focus was on "is" rather than "ought."

And he's moralizing about what other people choose to focus on. It's unnecessary. Want to talk about one specific thing in one specific way? Set the guidelines and we'll have a more focused discussion. An issue with discussions such as this is that there's different types of personalities. Some are more pie-in-the-sky "this is what's wrong, and this is what we should do in a perfect world", which is cool, and some of us take a more practical view of things. Neither are right nor wrong, and steering the conversation in one strict direction limits debate. And in my opinion lessens it.

Well, we agree to an extent. I still think that current Law Enforcement (as shown in Missoula) is implicit in the culture and there has to be something done about that. I have no idea what that something is though. Perhaps if we change the views of the kids on the ground there, then the views of Law Enforcement will follow, but it's such a huge change. Even now, when we have come so far when it comes to women's rights, there are still people who resist the ideas of feminism. We can't JUST change the culture of rape because it's only an expression of the misogyny everyone is still dealing with. Education of individuals can help prevent specific cases, but that's just treating the symptom, it's not eradicating the disease. Edit: I think I addressed your edited point before your edit.

Yeah, you did. One of the biggest problem is that if you intend to stop rape, you need to cast a wide net. The rape culture isn't the root cause of a huge number of rapes.

[Gaborn]

And he's moralizing about what other people choose to focus on. It's unnecessary. Want to talk about one specific thing in one specific way? Set the guidelines and we'll have a more focused discussion.

I'm not moralizing about that, the entire premise of this thread if you actually look at the OP is that there is a CLEAR problem in places like Missoula that the legal system CAN'T address. The issue ISN'T the law because whether or not the law is equipped to address something it ISN'T doing so as it stands. So the point is discussing how to change either the laws or the culture to address the problem of the culture of rape. Posting about the "law" as if you're being responsive to that point is extremely disingenuous because we've consistently been saying that the laws are not enough because of the culture that we live in.

Yeah, you did. One of the biggest problem is that if you intend to stop rape, you need to cast a wide net. The rape culture isn't the root cause of a huge number of rapes.

huge number, but perhaps not a large percentage. The rape culture contributes to the vast majority of rapes and situations that are and should be considered rape.

[SmokyDave]

Educate 'em, UK Style.

I have no idea how you reach the girls though. They seem quite happy to stitch each other up in the OP.

[Baconsammy]

I'm not moralizing about that, the entire premise of this thread if you actually look at the OP is that there is a CLEAR problem in places like Missoula that the legal system CAN'T address. The issue ISN'T the law because whether or not the law is equipped to address something it ISN'T doing so as it stands. So the point is discussing how to change either the laws or the culture to address the problem of the culture of rape. Posting about the "law" as if you're being responsive to that point is extremely disingenuous because we've consistently been saying that the laws are not enough because of the culture that we live in. huge number, but perhaps not a large percentage. The rape culture contributes to the vast majority of rapes and situations that are and should be considered rape.

I'd argue that changing the rape culture wouldn't have much if any effect on the high percentage of rapes committed by serial rapists (23%) or child rapists (I couldn't find a definitive percentage for that type because they're lumped in with the other 77 on most sites.)

[Dude Abides]

Getting drunk and having sex isn't a crime. Getting drunk and driving is a crime. Getting drunk and punching someone in the face is a crime. This "hill I chose to die on" is quite stable. The reason it's not rape is because when both parties are too incapacitated to consent, not consent etc etc it's not legally a rape, and the courts treat it as such. And it's why juries dont typically send guys to prison for getting shitfaced and having sex with someone else who got shitfaced. And yeah, that's when the law leans on personal responsibility, which I don't blame them for. At some point you're responsible for your actions, as am I for mine.

A bit late here but the bolded is false. If the woman is too drunk to give meaningful consent, that is rape in many jurisdictions. There's no "they were both drunk so it cancels out" rule.

[Gaborn]

I'd argue that changing the rape culture wouldn't have much if any effect on the high percentage of rapes committed by serial rapists (23%) or child rapists (I couldn't find a definitive percentage for that type because they're lumped in with the other 77 on most sites.)

Perhaps not, but that in no way is an argument for not changing the rape culture so I don't really see the point. It's like arguing against drunk driving laws by saying it won't change drunken idiots beating their wives.

[marrec]

I'd argue that changing the rape culture wouldn't have much if any effect on the high percentage of rapes committed by serial rapists (23%) or child rapists (I couldn't find a definitive percentage for that type because they're lumped in with the other 77 on most sites.)

You are looking at it the wrong way if you're looking at prevention of all types of rape. The affects of the culture spread into all areas of our life and turning that around would have benefits far beyond JUST stopping some instances of Date Rape. Victim advocacy would see enormous benefits for one. Psychological easing of burdens, and maybe an decrease in the stereotyping of the typical college male... the number of benefits are countless.