[ajf009]

Pirates unleashed Johnny Depp to the world, and Transformers pretty much set in stone the practice of bringing back old IP's for big budget movies.

...wat

[Stet]

The OP is claiming that, aside from ESB and Raiders, they really weren't.

I'd rather watch Star Wars and Indiana Jones at their bat-in-hair worst than any of Transformers.

[Darkmakaimura]

Star Trek is the new Star Wars Star Wars is the new Star Trek

Ha! This does make sense though. There was a time when Star Trek was all the talk and the Trekkie/Trekker were given so much attention whereas Star Wars was kind of just that ol'e, but great, movie series. But since the prequels and the lack of any new Star Trek shows, Star Wars has become the new nerd craze and Star Trek has been almost forgotten. You can't blink without seeing a Star Wars parody somewhere to the point where it's become almost unbearable.

[brianmcdoogle]

Although it's sad, they certainly are. Not many people have noticed yet, but Pirates of the Caribbean and Transformers have changed much about the way films look and, as critic Lindsay Ellis pointed out, the way films sound. Hans Zimmer set the standard for film soundtracks in 2003, with the release of Curse of the Black Pearl. If there are three or four great songs with memorable melodies, the rest of the soundtrack can just be a simple chord progression that adds tension, enhances the mood, or tells the audience how to react. Sound effects, too, are different. In Transformers, they were usually much louder than the dialogue, and sometimes drowned out the character's voices, in an attempt to highlight the action. Both films have revolutionized the way action scenes are filmed, but it's too early to tell if that's a blessing or a curse. The "Transformers effect" is a notion mimicked by The Hunger Games, Battle LA, The Avengers, Clash of the Titans, and other summer blockbusters in which, because of shaky cam and quick transitions, you can't tell which characters are fighting. In the aforementioned 2010 remake of the Harryhausen classic, many fight scenes, particularly the Scorpion battle, are so shaky and blurry that all you can see are human figures attacking a monster. This was directly inspired by a very similar sequence in Michael Bay's first Transformers movie, which featured a practically identical monster. However, this new style, though usually annoying, could be done well. A fight scene like this is a bit more real. For example, in the excellently-directed Cornucopia scene of The Hunger Games, the quick transitions, blurriness, and shaky camera created a sense of urgency and reality that wasn't achieved by either Transformers or Clash of the Titans. Though Pirates of the Caribbean arguably renewed the idea of a summer blockbuster season, Transformers was much more influential. Given how his films have told studios that well-developed characters, an adequate story, and original visual design aren't needed to make money, Michael Bay is in many ways this generation's Spielberg. He'll certainly be in film textbooks, and his legacy shall live on for decades, for better or for worse.

This is somewhat what I was talking about, but I would take exception to your comparison of Michael Bay and Spielberg. Though populist Spielberg made spectacle movies like Indiana Jones, there was a lot of good filmmaking with in these movies. Michael Bay movies have no filmmaking technique: they are shot bad, they are acted poorly, and the stories are hollow shells. Spielberg movies, even bad ones like Hook, the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, and others, at least have good blocking, and a sense of style and direction and cinematic flair and humor. I think if you're talking about this direct comparison to the box office Spielberg of something like Jaws and Indiana Jones compared to Armageddon and Transformers, you can have a point, but none of the cinematic magic that is in Spielberg movies, even his lesser efforts, are found anything Michael Bay has ever done.

[Stealth Editor]

Now, I am not trying to suggest that the Avengers is a bad movie, or that it is of the same quality of Transformers, but the sound, both mixing and effects, and the way the action is shot, all seem like big influences from Transformers.

If you're not invested in the character and/or the story, all the best CG and action sequence in the world means jack shit.

Everyone loves all the avengers, no one gives a shit about Shia and his whore of the week.

[Darkmakaimura]

Not sure what you mean by bringing back old IPs. If you mean an intellectual property, then Transformers hardly began the trend. As for Pirates, I'm glad the films helped Johnny Depp's career, but that's not really comparable to the influence of the original Star Wars. It was a cultural phenomenon, 2nd in ticket sales only to Gone with the Wind which was re-released half a dozen times. Nothing against Pirates or Transformers, I just don't believe they have had anywhere near as much impact on the film industry or culture in general.

The other thing is that POTC was based off an already existing ride at Disneyland and Disneyworld. Most people already knew of the ride (at least I did) and if it weren't for that, POTC may not of even had the success it did.

Indiana Jones was completely fresh and new, and not based off anything with that name prior to it's release. It was inspired by 30's and 40's adventure serials, but was still one of a kind.

[XiaNaphryz]

This is somewhat what I was talking about, but I would take exception to your comparison of Michael Bay and Spielberg. Though populist Spielberg made spectacle movies like Indiana Jones, there was a lot of good filmmaking with in these movies. Michael Bay movies have no filmmaking technique: they are shot bad, they are acted poorly, and the stories are hollow shells. Spielberg movies, even bad ones like Hook, the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, and others, at least have good blocking, and a sense of style and direction and cinematic flair and humor.

From what I understand from colleagues/coworkers here who have worked with Bay on his various projects here, he's actually really knowledgeable about technique and probably one of the better technically versed directors out there in terms of shot blocking, lighting, camera movement, etc. How he chooses to apply what he knows, particularly in his more recent work, is usually what people have issues with.

[Valhelm]

Outside of one particular short sequence, I don't think Avengers suffered from any of the issues you cited.

Yeah, it was much more subtle, really only noticeable in certain parts of the New York battle. I didn't have a problem with it there, personally.

[Scullibundo]

Avatar is the new Star Wars.

[FStop7]

Avatar is the new Star Wars.

god this is the most hated truth in my reality

[Copernicus]

No until I get my god damn Transformers ride at Universal Studios!

[Stormwatch]

I am a SUPER HUGE fan of the Pirates of the Caribbean movies. Disney even invited me to dress up as a pirate at a mall in order to get into a free screening of the 4th movie because I'm such a fan. But, the Pirates movies aren't the next Star Wars. Star Wars brought special effects into a new league of awesome. There are memorable characters that everybody loves. Even most little kids know who Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are. I bet you half the people out there couldn't tell you the names of Orlando Bloom's and Keira Knightley's characters in the movies.

[Darkmakaimura]

Avatar is the new Star Wars.

I disagree.

From a technical standpoint, it has revolutionized film. However, it doesn't carry the same love that SW has. Avatar is generally disliked by most people, even though it is critically well accepted. I don't see a bunch of nerds chatting it up about the Na'vi or what happened at the end. If we do get a sequel, I have doubts it will carry over. Honestly, I can't see what they could expand on anyhow. Star Wars at least has an entire galaxy filled with aliens, warships, guns, etc. Indiana Jones has all sorts of villians, magical McGuffins, wild adventures and stunts, etc. I don't see and have certainly not seen geeks get all up and excited about an Earth Day movie with a tribe of Blue Cat Group. There's no scary aliens, no cool powers or villians you-love-to-hate, no balls-to-the-walls action.

Avatar is NOT the new Star Wars.

Edit: This is coming from someone who actually liked Avatar as well.

[Salvadora]

Avatar is generally disliked by most people, even though it is critically well accepted

You don't get to 2.8 billion without being liked. I'm sure the DVD/BLU sales are impressive as well.

[Black-Box]

Lord of the rings come closest and eww on transformer

[Darkmakaimura]

You don't get to 2.8 billion without being liked. I'm sure the DVD/BLU sales are impressive as well.

Yeah, maybe I'm off kilter here and sure, it was well liked but not so much by the same people who love Star Wars, Star Trek, The Matrix.... your typical "geeks" and "nerds" for example. Remember that the movie has a lot of hype surrounding it and that accounts for drawing people's attention. There are exceptions too, such as myself, but I've not seen one person I know who really liked Avatar. Nor have I seen the type of attention Star Wars, for example, gets by fans. I'm under the impression, from my own observation mind you, that a lot of people who liked Avatar are not the same people who go around obsessing and dressing like Darth Maul.

[jtb]

I disagree. From a technical standpoint, it has revolutionized film. However, it doesn't carry the same love that SW has. Avatar is generally disliked by most people, even though it is critically well accepted. I don't see a bunch of nerds chatting it up about the Na'vi or what happened at the end. If we do get a sequel, I have doubts it will carry over. Honestly, I can't see what they could expand on anyhow. Star Wars at least has an entire galaxy filled with aliens, warships, guns, etc. Indiana Jones has all sorts of villians, magical McGuffins, wild adventures and stunts, etc. I don't see and have certainly not seen geeks get all up and excited about an Earth Day movie with a tribe of Blue Cat Group. There's no scary aliens, no cool powers or villians you-love-to-hate, no balls-to-the-walls action. Avatar is NOT the new Star Wars. Edit: This is coming from someone who actually liked Avatar as well.

2.8 billion. The geeks didn't make Star Wars the pop culture phenomenon it has become, nor are they going to be responsible for Avatar's success or failure.

[XiaNaphryz]

Yeah, maybe I'm off kilter here and sure, it was well liked but not so much by the same people who love Star Wars, Star Trek, The Matrix.... your typical "geeks" and "nerds" for example. Remember that the movie has a lot of hype surrounding it and that accounts for drawing people's attention. There are exceptions too, such as myself, but I've not seen one person I know who really liked Avatar. Nor have I seen the type of attention Star Wars, for example, gets by fans. I'm under the impression, from my own observation mind you, that a lot of people who liked Avatar are not the same people who go around obsessing and dressing like Darth Maul.

[Salvadora]

I'm under the impression, from my own observation mind you, that a lot of people who liked Avatar are not the same people who go around obsessing and dressing like Darth Maul.

This is true but Star Wars wasn't only liked by people who dress like Chewbacca.

[CloudWolf]

The first Pirates of the Carribbean was original, funny and action-packed. The rest of the Pirates movies felt like copycats that tried really hard, but failed at achieving what the first one did. Definitely not comparable with Indiana Jones, where I really like all three movies (yes, I choose to neglect Kingdom of the Crystal Skull).

Transformers wished it was even half as influential/good as Star Wars. Those movies are really atrocious. I saw the first one for free and I still felt ripped off.

[artist]

Yes, Avatar is the new Star Wars. Most successful shitty film of all-time.

[Symphonic]

Although it's sad, they certainly are. Not many people have noticed yet, but Pirates of the Caribbean and Transformers have changed much about the way films look and, as critic Lindsay Ellis pointed out, the way films sound. Hans Zimmer set the standard for film soundtracks in 2003, with the release of Curse of the Black Pearl. If there are three or four great songs with memorable melodies, the rest of the soundtrack can just be a simple chord progression that adds tension, enhances the mood, or tells the audience how to react. Sound effects, too, are different. In Transformers, they were usually much louder than the dialogue, and sometimes drowned out the character's voices, in an attempt to highlight the action. Both films have revolutionized the way action scenes are filmed, but it's too early to tell if that's a blessing or a curse. The "Transformers effect" is a notion mimicked by The Hunger Games, Battle LA, The Avengers, Clash of the Titans, and other summer blockbusters in which, because of shaky cam and quick transitions, you can't tell which characters are fighting. In the aforementioned 2010 remake of the Harryhausen classic, many fight scenes, particularly the Scorpion battle, are so shaky and blurry that all you can see are human figures attacking a monster. This was directly inspired by a very similar sequence in Michael Bay's first Transformers movie, which featured a practically identical monster. However, this new style, though usually annoying, could be done well. A fight scene like this is a bit more real. For example, in the excellently-directed Cornucopia scene of The Hunger Games, the quick transitions, blurriness, and shaky camera created a sense of urgency and reality that wasn't achieved by either Transformers or Clash of the Titans. Though Pirates of the Caribbean arguably renewed the idea of a summer blockbuster season, Transformers was much more influential. Given how his films have told studios that well-developed characters, an adequate story, and original visual design aren't needed to make money, Michael Bay is in many ways this generation's Spielberg. He'll certainly be in film textbooks, and his legacy shall live on for decades, for better or for worse.

Sorry, I'm anal about this shit because Hans Zimmer is an asshole, but Zimmer wasn't the only one on the Pearl score. He wasn't even the biggest contributor.

[purple cobra]

I saw the first Transformers movie years ago and immediately tried to wipe it from my memory and I haven't seen The Avengers yet, so I might be way off with this, but my impression is that Transformers used a lot of standard action movie editing, so it could be that what looks like influences from Transformers is just an industry standard? Anyway, I believe that for something to be considered the next Star Wars, it would need to do more than just innovate some technical aspects of film-making. It needs to be a cultural touchstone as well, and Transformers is far from that. Lord of the Rings, as others have mentioned, is much closer.

I agree. I think that right now, the LOTR trilogy is the closest to a Star Wars that we have now. I think the Matrix series had a shot if the two sequels hadn't been disappointing. I think judging how the next Avatar does that also has a shot at being the new Star Wars.

As far as the Transformers movies, the effects were outstanding and I enjoyed the first movie. Second movie though was God awful. The third made somewhat of a rebound but it didn't really bring back the feelings I had of the first movie. The action was easier to follow, probably due to shooting in 3D.

But Bay has big problems pacing these movies. Particularly the second and third Transformers movies. Both had big lulls in the middle of the movie and then all out action. The third film's second half felt like an hour long action scene. I'm all for action as long as it's paced well but Transformers 3 certainly wasn't.

[Carbonox_Ratchet]

I agree. I think that right now, the LOTR trilogy is the closest to a Star Wars that we have now. I think the Matrix series had a shot if the two sequels hadn't been disappointing. I think judging how the next Avatar does that also has a shot at being the new Star Wars. As far as the Transformers movies, the effects were outstanding and I enjoyed the first movie. Second movie though was God awful. The third made somewhat of a rebound but it didn't really bring back the feelings I had of the first movie. The action was easier to follow, probably due to shooting in 3D. But Bay has big problems pacing these movies. Particularly the second and third Transformers movies. Both had big lulls in the middle of the movie and then all out action. The third film's second half felt like an hour long action scene. I'm all for action as long as it's paced well but Transformers 3 certainly wasn't.

The lull in RotF was probably the biggest insult to me more than anything else in that film. After Prime is killed (that fight was one of the best scenes in the trilogy IMO), I pretty much sigh because I know what's coming next. So bad.

[wetwired]

Transformers designs have been influential, this year alone ive seen them show up in batlleship and avengers.

[Scullibundo]

Yes, Avatar is the new Star Wars. Most successful shitty film of all-time.

A shitty movie that you went to see multiple times.

[artist]

A shitty movie that you went to see multiple times.

And it was still shitty.

[Scullibundo]

And it was still shitty.

Can I just say that I find your 180 hilarious.

Back in 2009:

sob sob sob There are lots of crybabies on forums now a days, some even crying that Avatar has an added benefit of 3D priced tickets and how it should not cross the movies like TF2, Star Wars and the like. :lol

In fact, that same page seems to track where your meltdowns started happening.

[shira]

MovieGAF, where quotes are saved for 3 years

[artist]

First off all what a creep. Secondly ..

Can I just say that I find your 180 hilarious. Back in 2009: In fact, that same page seems to track where your meltdowns started happening.

There is no 180. I dont believe in adjusting BO numbers, removing 3D/IMAX numbers etc and have often repeated my stance on it. The fact that I applauded Avatar during its BO run doesnt mean it wasnt a shitty movie.

There is an 180, only in Xemu-Cameron worshipping world, yes.

MovieGAF, where quotes are saved for 3 years

CreepGAF. :lol

edit: Dead, I see that you are still hurt about getting exposed on your personal grudge with Nolan. For shits sake, you and Sculli dont turn every damn thread into a personal pissing contest. Dont derail this thread any further and keep it to PM.

[Dead]

Digging up other peoples posts

Only creepy when artist isn't the one doing it.

[.la1n]

I like Pirates when, well, I need a mindless pirate fix. The first movie holds up better than any of the others but soundtrack + Depp = can't hate. Transformers, all three, are abortions to me as are most of Bay's other endeavors (The Rock excluded for Connery badassery.)

edit: on second thought, the first flick is still pretty fun (Transformers.)

[purple cobra]

MovieGAF, where quotes are saved for 3 years

Good one.

[Jimothy]

Watching the first Transformers movie at midnight is one of the best theater going experiences I've ever had. The movie was just fun, and unlike the last two, had some Spielberg-ian magic to it. The Autobots arrival to earth is a fantastic sequence. Of course it doesn't hold up upon home viewings, but damn if it wasn't something to see on the big screen with a huge audience.

And yeah, the first Pirates movie is fucking great. It's hard to be believe it's almost 10 years old.

[Kyleripman]

I'm gonna put forth an apparently unpopular opinion here and say that the second Pirates is the best. Dat Davy Jones.

I don't think they have the same influence as Star Wars (haven't even seen all the Transformers, so I can't comment on those), but I personally like them better.

[artist]

I'm gonna put forth an apparently unpopular opinion here and say that the second Pirates is the best. Dat Davy Jones. I don't think they have the same influence as Star Wars (haven't even seen all the Transformers, so I can't comment on those), but I personally like them better.

I loved DMC most but cant deny the rewatch value of COTBP. DMC had the right amount of Depp (COTBP had less and AWE had more) and the Bloom/Keira love sub-plot was significantly less. And plus Davy Jones.

[purple cobra]

Watching the first Transformers movie at midnight is one of the best theater going experiences I've ever had. The movie was just fun, and unlike the last two, had some Spielberg-ian magic to it. The Autobots arrival to earth is a fantastic sequence. Of course it doesn't hold up upon home viewings, but damn if it wasn't something to see on the big screen with a huge audience. And yeah, the first Pirates movie is fucking great. It's hard to be believe it's almost 10 years old.

Yep, that was perfect. Especially when Ironhide walks out of the pool and the little girl asks if he's the tooth fairy. :) The music playing at that part made it special too.

[JGS]

I think LOTR & possibly Matrix Are the Star Warsiest.

Nothing comes close to Indiana Jones except maybe Bond movies which is what Indiana Jones was supposed to be anyway.

The only one close unfortunately is The Mummy movies.

[TUROK]

Both films have revolutionized the way action scenes are filmed, but it's too early to tell if that's a blessing or a curse. The "Transformers effect" is a notion mimicked by The Hunger Games, Battle LA, The Avengers, Clash of the Titans, and other summer blockbusters in which, because of shaky cam and quick transitions, you can't tell which characters are fighting. In the aforementioned 2010 remake of the Harryhausen classic, many fight scenes, particularly the Scorpion battle, are so shaky and blurry that all you can see are human figures attacking a monster. This was directly inspired by a very similar sequence in Michael Bay's first Transformers movie, which featured a practically identical monster. However, this new style, though usually annoying, could be done well. A fight scene like this is a bit more real. For example, in the excellently-directed Cornucopia scene of The Hunger Games, the quick transitions, blurriness, and shaky camera created a sense of urgency and reality that wasn't achieved by either Transformers or Clash of the Titans.

Nevermind that the Bourne movies did shaky-cam before Transformers did, the Transformers movies actually don't have a lot of shaky-cam or quick cuts in them (I've seen the TF movies like 5 times each). They do have a lot of close-ups of very complex looking robots, though. Also, that scene you're talking about looks just fine, even in an offscreen video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd9scD8x-Lg

Can't say I agree in regard to the Hunger Games either. The intention of the scene doesn't make it any less ugly and incoherent.

This is somewhat what I was talking about, but I would take exception to your comparison of Michael Bay and Spielberg. Though populist Spielberg made spectacle movies like Indiana Jones, there was a lot of good filmmaking with in these movies. Michael Bay movies have no filmmaking technique: they are shot bad, they are acted poorly, and the stories are hollow shells. Spielberg movies, even bad ones like Hook, the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, and others, at least have good blocking, and a sense of style and direction and cinematic flair and humor. I think if you're talking about this direct comparison to the box office Spielberg of something like Jaws and Indiana Jones compared to Armageddon and Transformers, you can have a point, but none of the cinematic magic that is in Spielberg movies, even his lesser efforts, are found anything Michael Bay has ever done.

I don't want to go into a tirade about this, but you're wrong.

http://www.criterion.com/current/posts/48-armageddon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanine_Basinger

[Conrad Link]

First Pirates movie was great! I reeeeally loved it.

Reminded me of Princess Bride in that it just felt like a really nice 'fun' adventure movie.

It didn't need sequels, each one after that just felt a little forced to me.

You could tell they were trying too hard to be all LOL THIS IS SO WHAT JACK SPARROW WOULD DO AYE LOL etc.

I understand why it got sequels, obviously it was gonna happen. Just didn't feel it needed it.

[Alphahawk]

I think in terms of total hysteria taking over. In terms of content Lord of the Rings might be a more apt comparison, but I mean Harry Potter has it's own theme park dedicated to it. That's some Star Wars fan level ish right there.

[Wiseblade]

Pirates unleashed Johnny Depp to the world, and Transformers pretty much set in stone the practice of bringing back old IP's for big budget movies.

Edward Scissorhands unleashed Johnny Depp on the world.

[The Technomancer]

Both films have revolutionized the way action scenes are filmed, but it's too early to tell if that's a blessing or a curse. The "Transformers effect" is a notion mimicked by The Hunger Games, Battle LA, The Avengers, Clash of the Titans, and other summer blockbusters in which, because of shaky cam and quick transitions, you can't tell which characters are fighting. In the aforementioned 2010 remake of the Harryhausen classic, many fight scenes, particularly the Scorpion battle, are so shaky and blurry that all you can see are human figures attacking a monster. This was directly inspired by a very similar sequence in Michael Bay's first Transformers movie, which featured a practically identical monster. However, this new style, though usually annoying, could be done well. A fight scene like this is a bit more real. For example, in the excellently-directed Cornucopia scene of The Hunger Games, the quick transitions, blurriness, and shaky camera created a sense of urgency and reality that wasn't achieved by either Transformers or Clash of the Titans.

What? One of the things that I enjoyed most about The Avengers was how possible it was to follow the action. I know exactly the effect your describing and I was pleasantly surprised that it didn't succumb to it.

[Darkmakaimura]

2.8 billion. The geeks didn't make Star Wars the pop culture phenomenon it has become, nor are they going to be responsible for Avatar's success or failure.

But the geeks sustained it. Looks at all the responses here to Avatar. "Shitty film". We may have not had the Internet back then, but you didn't hear people screaming "shitty film" with Star Wars, at least not on the level of Avatar.

Besides, I rarely hear about Avatar but always hear about Star Wars. Avatar is not embedded in our culture. Most people, including myself, don't even remember the character's names. Hell, I barely remember the lead actor's name. After Star Wars, Chewbacca, Luke, Obi-Wan, etc. became household names. I mention Na'vi or Unobtanium to someone and they're like "What?". Mention Pandora and they think you're talking about the website.

Avatar will be remembered as a technical achievement but not as something the "geek culture" or people in general will yap about 25 years from now. The Matrix, imo, has an even larger impact in pop culture than Avatar ever has or will.

2.8 billion means a lot of bodies saw it and it may be the most financially successful movie of all time, but that does not translate into a sustaining pop culture phenomena anywhere close to Lucas' space epic.

[artist]

2.8 billion. The geeks didn't make Star Wars the pop culture phenomenon it has become, nor are they going to be responsible for Avatar's success or failure.

Star Wars is at 4.32 billion, you still lose.

[Kunan]

Avatar is the new Star Wars.

We'll wait and see its cultural impact and if it strengthens with 2. I'd say Harry Potter was the new Star Wars.

I do agree with the OP though that Transformers has had a lot of influence on movies today, just like how Lord of the Rings did previously.

[KevinCow]

The Matrix could have been the new Star Wars.

Then the sequels happened. :(

[Kunan]

The Matrix could have been the new Star Wars. Then the sequels happened. :(

I still think that if they condensed Revelations to 30-40 minutes, and replaced 30-40 minutes of Reloaded, that they would've made a good sequel. Everything was so drawn out. It was painfully obvious that they really didn't have enough content to fill two movies.

/one of the people who actually liked Reloaded, if only for its lore.