[Opus Angelorum]

The support for PSVita is caving in...

Sorry

[meppi]

I really really hope things work out for them in the end.
Cave closing down is something that would hit me as hard as Sega leaving the console race. :(

[lunchwithyuzo]

The last 3-4 releases kinda said otherwise. Whilst deathsmiles performed well for Cave's standards, the sales of their later games dropped like a rock. That should have given signs to Cave to change or expand, but they didn't do squat. Ultimately it was their fault for sticking to the same console, because the userbase certainly didn't as evident of the poor sales of their last few releases. Even Visual novel developers have jumped ship or expanded, which is pretty telling of the 360 situation in Japan nowadays. It's not even a viable console for niche games anymore.

Problem is no console has really emerged in it's place as a new go to. PSP/Wii/DS are all on the way out, Cyberfront's PS3 Mamorukun conversion bombed and no one but G.Rev is dipping their toes into 3DS/Vita. It's not like Cave really has a good option here.

[mjemirzian]

Vita is a platform people don't actually buy. The rest of the words in your sentence are superfluous.

If people "don't actually buy" a Vita, how do they acquire one?

[SmokyDave]

If people "don't actually buy" a Vita, how do they acquire one?

They probably fed a PSP after midnight.

[andymcc]

siggghhhh

games are no longer for me. :(

[klee123]

Problem is no console has really emerged in it's place as a new go to. PSP/Wii/DS are all on the way out, Cyberfront's PS3 Mamorukun conversion bombed and no one but G.Rev is dipping their toes into 3DS/Vita. It's not like Cave really has a good option here.

I'm not saying they have any other options at this point. Ship has sailed long ago. They should have expanded 2-3 years ago when their properties were actually worth something.

Also, with Mamoru-kun, when the game isn't popular in the first place and add the fact that it's almost a 2 year old belated port sold at full price.....yeah, it's not gonna do the release any favors regardless of platform.

[epmode]

Yeah, Steam releases would be free money at this point. I hope they're paying attention to Falcom.

[NM0dz]

The support for PSVita is caving in... Sorry

I guess caving in is what happens when you don't have any... support

hahahaha

dying on the inside :' (

[shintoki]

Problem is no console has really emerged in it's place as a new go to. PSP/Wii/DS are all on the way out, Cyberfront's PS3 Mamorukun conversion bombed and no one but G.Rev is dipping their toes into 3DS/Vita. It's not like Cave really has a good option here.

That is the fallacy people keep making. I don't believe a single shmup did well on PS3 or was saved by being ported to it. And PC seems to largely stick with the Doujin scene. I think you have Jamestown and that's about it(Even that is questionable about its success). There is this notion that their is a secret gold mine on another system of thousands of users, waiting to give their money towards it. When it turns into nothing but hot air. And I think that problem is magnified immensely once you get to the shmup genre. Where the problem lies. Its an archaic genre. Try selling a Beat em up for 40$ as a retail console release. You'll get a bunch of "It should have been a PSN/XBLA release", "It needs to be on PC, followed by the I'll wait till it hits sub 5$". And even when it does get release digitally for 10$. Most seem to still forget about them after the first week. We even have some discussion about the validity of the iOS releases being worth it or not.

What they make is what a very tiny % are actually interested in(Willing to shell out more than 10$ for) with most others thinking of them as past relics or something they can pad their steam list with for a few dollars.

I still do believe a re-branding and worldwide push on PC is the best route to go. The fanbase is dedicated enough to follow. They could do retail releases in Japan, DD for the rest of the world. Maybe get it on Steam for 30$, in a few sales were they could use the lack of competition(Dozens of twin stick shooters, Only a few standard ones). But I don't think its possible for them to save this downwards trend in their current state. Milk what they do best as long as they can. But they'll have to change how they make their titles quite drastically into more casual titles if they are in it for the long run.

[Shinriji]

Soldner-X 2 (PS3) has 40k users on the leaderboard, and Soldner-X has 80k users, similar to latest Cave games on IOS. There is a niche of players willing to play shmups on every platform, quality aside.

[le.phat]

"DIE CAVE! You don't belong in this post-IOS world!"

[LiquidMetal14]

They should port some games to Steam and PS3.

Yep.

[djSyndrome]

Almost all of Cave's iOS games are ports of their arcade titles. Sooner or later without a new stream of arcade games (is there even anything in the pipeline now that SDOJ is out??) they will run out of games to port =\

[gcubed]

with such stellar stewardship of the company its hard to imagine why they are in trouble.

[SmokyDave]

I'm fairly certain I saw it on a Japanese site. I'm still looking for the link. I'm pretty sure I didn't pull it out of my ass, but I guess we'll see. XD http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/1..._On_iPhone.php ^Not exactly what I'm talking about though, so forgive me for that. I do know that Don Don Pachi Resurrection sold 30,000 it's first four days, which while definitely solid for a pricier iOS game, still doesn't match up to the 7,000-8,000 yen pricing you'll find for console offerings selling similar numbers. I guess my point (maybe?) is that even if their iOS is doing well, it's not enough to keep the company afloat when the console offerings aren't doing all that great.

I missed this post, sorry. Those figures are interesting. 30k copies in 4 days for a game that costs around $250k to develop can't be bad.

Unfortunately, I agree with the last line of your post. Even if the iOS stuff is doing OK, it ain't doing well enough to subsidise everything else.

[Totobeni]

The support for PSVita is caving in... Sorry

It remind me of PS3 support in it's first year when games got cancelled left and right ( or went to other systems)However I doubt that Sony can pull a PS3 resurrection again with Vita.

[Lord Error]

Welp, I bought their every game on iOS, and I'd buy their every game on Vita. Too bad all around for them, and by extension for us, shooter fans.

I missed this post, sorry. Those figures are interesting. 30k copies in 4 days for a game that costs around $250k to develop can't be bad.

They were selling it for $5 in the first week of release, so after the apple cut, that's around $100K back to them in those 4 days (where probably huge bulk of sales was made for a game of this type). Not so great IMO.

[djtiesto]

Damn it, why does everything in the game industry sacred to me have to vanish?

[SmokyDave]

They were selling it for $5 in the first week of release, so after the apple cut, that's around $100K back to them in those 4 days (where probably huge bulk of sales was made for a game of this type). Not so great IMO.

Good point about the release week price. According to Cave the first month is the most important. I'm not saying it's 'great' but I'd be gobsmacked if the games aren't turning a (probably small) profit.

Still, it doesn't mean anything if there is nothing to port because they can't afford to make new games :(

[digita1alchemy]

Damn it, why does everything in the game industry sacred to me have to vanish?

[jlevel13]

Yeah, Steam releases would be free money at this point. I hope they're paying attention to Falcom.

People keep saying this, but I wonder, especially since almost all their games have been emulated in MAME - how many people would really spend real money to pick up them up on steam?

[Ooccoo]

It's sad but with such niche titles I'm not too surprised. Maybe they should focus on developing for PSN/XBLA

[StarCreator]

People keep saying this, but I wonder, especially since almost all their games have been emulated in MAME - how many people would really spend real money to pick up them up on steam?

At the prices Cave would have to charge? Maybe 10 people.

Any theoretical release of a halfway recent game via Steam would have to either priced at the same level as their releases on 360 ($30-40 in the US) or they risk damaging the perceived value of their brand more than it already is. The only games they could conceivably take a risk with lower prices on would have to be old to the point that everyone can play it on MAME anyway (see Guwange).

[Spanish Wrath]

This is sad.

[cj_iwakura]

The majority of people aren't willing to pay $60+ for a shmup(import wise), myself included.


And yes, time and time again, Japanese devs have been proven foolish in ignoring Steam/DD, especially going by Ys: Oath in Felghana's success on Steam.

[Space A Cobra]

Such things are not super surprising but it still makes me very(very) sad. =/

[RyougaSaotome]

Good point about the release week price. According to Cave the first month is the most important. I'm not saying it's 'great' but I'd be gobsmacked if the games aren't turning a (probably small) profit. Still, it doesn't mean anything if there is nothing to port because they can't afford to make new games :(

I recall reading somewhere that the Dondonpachi games were their best selling titles on iOS, save for Mushi Hime which is apparently their top seller.

Keep in mind this is just hearsay though. But if all their titles sold around where Resurrection did, I can't see that being too good for Cave. =/

[iconoclast]

SCE America. Neither SCEE or SCE Japan would have caused them any troubles. Combined with a region-free console it would have been a smarter business move then to alienate the Japanese gamers and to leave the Europeans in the cold just to have America.

I'm pretty sure Ketsui was going to move to the PS3 after Arika cancelled the PS2 version, but Sony said lol no. I don't think SCEA would be the one calling the shots here...

[Tain]

It'd be nice to see how many people imported the region-free 360 titles versus how many Japanese customers bought them.

[charlequin]

isnt the point here, that cave is in trouble....maybe no one buys their games on ios...

From what I've been told on the matter the iOS releases aren't doing exciting numbers, exactly, but it nonetheless seems to be the place they've been the least unsuccessful recently.

The core of the problem here, as far as I can tell, is that they've been driving their business on selling a large volume of products to a fairly niche group of users, on platforms like 360 that can't even support that level of ultra-niche sales anymore, and that the arcade market that originally served as the base for their development is slipping away. Moving to the Vita is hardly going to fix that problem. The best bet they have out of their fairly terrible options is to focus on platforms with at least the potential for broader sales, with higher per-unit margins and less interference -- which in today's climate mostly means PC and iOS.

Unfortunately, as with a lot of skillful and well-loved Japanese niche developers, I think it's very possible that there's just no configuration in which the world is going to be buying what Cave is selling. :(

[jlevel13]

From what I've been told on the matter the iOS releases aren't doing exciting numbers, exactly, but it nonetheless seems to be the place they've been the least unsuccessful recently.

DoDonPachi Blissful Death - 25,138
Bug Princess - 20,072
Bug Princess2 - 13,087
Deathsmiles - 13,903
Espgaluda HD - 4,140
DoDonPachi Res. HD - 3,812

Looking at the leaderboards for the iOS releases, we can get a pretty good idea of sales (I don't have the non-HD versions of Espgaluda and DoDonPachi Res.). One would guess though that the bulk of the iOS sales have been made during release week discounted prices...

[OmegaZero]