[Zinga]

I agree with him 100%, gays should not be married. It's the word of god.

[butimnotarapper]

Same but different isn't equal. And religion doesn't have exclusive rights to the word marriage.

Personally, I'm fine with gay marriage. I just think some of the backlash is overblown

[Buzzati]

Best Boxer and understanding dude.

Except for being a racist himself.

[JABEE]

This whole gay marriage thing is so stupid as to be painful. So far as I can tell, pretty much all opposition boils down to 'god said it's wrong'. That's not how we roll in 2012, Christians included. Biblical morals simply aren't applicable. The fact that marriage predates Christianity should render this whole thing moot.

Especially when you consider how the people who wrote the Leviticus had no perspective about modern homosexuality. No one even classified things like that. It was mostly meant as a way of preaching fertility. It wasn't a specific statement about homosexuality.

I also wonder why this is a religious issue when marriages are also afforded to those who do not believe in a religion. Marriage is a public service, not a religious service. Why are marriage laws being determined by the Bible? Isn't everyone supposed to be afforded equal rights under the law?

[DECK'ARD]

Personally, I'm fine with gay marriage. I just think some of the backlash is overblown

The fact there is any controversy over just a word shows even in 2012 there is a deeper problem.

Which means there is even more reason to just get it done.

[Ninja Scooter]

I could be wrong, but I don't think he's against gays being together in a "domestic partnership"...just that he doesn't want it to be called "marriage"...I don't think that's as bad as people are making it out to be

if he's a devout catholic and spouts off on the word of god, then does he just pick and choose what he likes out of the bible? If you are going to say you are against gays because of the "word of god" then that includes leviticus, and it includes believing gays should be put to death, no?

[JokerOfSpades]

I don't understand this at all. How can people think this and not stop for a second to reconsider things? If God is perfect, and people are born gay, maybe being gay isn't as evil as a translation of a translation of a 2000 year old book written by people may have you believe. Especially when it comes to people you personally know or are related to. You've never stopped to think about them as a person, think about how you want them to suffer based on your beliefs? I just don't get it. What does it take to make some people think for themselves?

Yeeeaaaahhh, if people thought along those lines, then disease wouldn't be bad, criminals wouldn't be bad, compulsive liars, sociopaths, etc. The logic is that just because it exists doesn't mean it is good. As God gives choices.

It has nothing to do with suffering, and as much as people may stop me to try to get me to go to Bible clubs and the like, I won't fault them for it. That's because they believe that the word of God is 100% true. So when it comes to relatives or gay people marrying, they try to stop them. It's like (of course, with no offense) drugs. Your family member is doing drugs - that doesn't mean you have to help them along. Yes, if you restrict their access to drugs, they will go through tremendous pain, but because you believe the drug is wrong, you will keep it from them, and try to get them to change. In this case, he would be trying to get his relative not to act on homosexual tendencies.

Some years ago, my youth pastor had gotten a gay man to accept God, and so he had to stop his homosexual tendencies. Of course, this proved difficult, to the point where the man was considering backsliding, but my yp convinced him not to. Actually, in one of the more interesting nights, this one girl was trying to argue against homosexuality being wrong. After a bit of words, she came out as a lesbian herself. My yp didn't attack her, rather he tried to talk to her and wanted to help her out. I've no idea what happened with that - it was about a year or so ago.

See, it's not that they can just let everyone go about their way because they aren't harming anyone - rather, it's about trying to help people as much as they can because they truly believe that they are right, and they want to save people. Delusional be they as they may, they do it for reasons they may believe to be altruistic.

For the last point, they do think for themselves to a degree, but because they believe the Bible is truth, they usually just use that as proof in and of itself. Any thought they have is usually post-hoc reasoning so that they can come to the same conclusion that the Bible does.

[JABEE]

I agree with him 100%, gays should not be married. It's the word of god.

When did God say that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry each other? The Leviticus quote in OP doesn't say that and nobody follows the rest of Leviticus, why follow this specific portion?

[JokerOfSpades]

When did God say that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry each other? The Leviticus quote in OP doesn't say that and nobody follows the rest of Leviticus, why follow this specific portion?

I was arguing with my brother about that some time ago - I'll ask him for the appropriate New Testament verse tomorrow.

[JABEE]

if he's a devout catholic and spouts off on the word of god, then does he just pick and choose what he likes out of the bible? If you are going to say you are against gays because of the "word of god" then that includes leviticus, and it includes believing gays should be put to death, no?

There is also a lot of parts of the old testament that most people would never follow. It was written to serve the people who lived during the period of each book's writing.

[butimnotarapper]

The fact there is any controversy over just a word shows even in 2012 there is a deeper problem. Which means there is even more reason to just get it done.

True...but I'm just saying some of these people condemning Pacquiao (maybe not here) also support Floyd. Like that guy's never said anything controversial. Why is he getting more flack? Floyd wasn't banned from asia for telling Pacquiao to make him egg rolls and sushi or whatever

[JokerOfSpades]

Yes... the New Testament is often followed in place of the Old. How was it described...?

The Old Testament was for those living under law, and the New is because we are no longer living under such laws - we live under grace. Something like that.

[DECK'ARD]

There is also a lot of parts of the old testament that most people would never follow. It was written to serve the people who lived during the period of each book's writing.

It honestly boggles my mind.

It may be the word of God to some, but the word of God was clearly ill-informed and ignorant. And using that as the basis for laws in the 21st century is complete madness.

[JABEE]

I don't understand this at all. How can people think this and not stop for a second to reconsider things? If God is perfect, and people are born gay, maybe being gay isn't as evil as a translation of a translation of a 2000 year old book written by people may have you believe. Especially when it comes to people you personally know or are related to. You've never stopped to think about them as a person, think about how you want them to suffer based on your beliefs? I just don't get it. What does it take to make some people think for themselves?

The Bible is not consistent. It was written by many different people over many years. It contradicts itself constantly and has no thematic consistency. One moment God is reveling in War, one moment he's eating food cooked by Jobe's doubting friends, then one moment he's all powerful and above all. The Bible was written under the context of there being other Gods, but God being the best.

[JokerOfSpades]

It honestly boggles my mind. It may be the word of God to some, but the word of God was clearly ill-informed and ignorant. And using that as the basis for laws in the 21st century is complete madness.

See, that's the part that many of you don't seem to get. You think of it as a passive thing or whatever, but these people believe that there is actually a God that rules reality. They serve him above all, period. What he says goes, and you actually get to live in eternity with him if you obey his word.

His word is absolute.

People who believe this will not go against what he says.

[SmokyDave]

....unless it suits them.

(You forgot that line Joker)

[DECK'ARD]

See, that's the part that many of you don't seem to get. You think of it as a passive thing or whatever, but these people believe that there is actually a God that rules reality. They serve him above all, period. What he says goes, and you actually get to live in eternity with him if you obey his word. His word is absolute. People who believe this will not go against what he says.

And it requires so much cognitive dissonance to believe that, to gloss over all the contradictions, inaccuracies, and the way we have such a much better understanding of everything in 2012 that these people really shouldn't be involved in law-making.

Religion is a belief, one that should not be enforced on others and everyone must be equal in the eyes of the law. Organised religion was used to control, to divide, to conquer, we should be long past that now.

And it's why Church should always be separate from State.

[MorisUkunRasik]

See, that's the part that many of you don't seem to get. You think of it as a passive thing or whatever, but these people believe that there is actually a God that rules reality. They serve him above all, period. What he says goes, and you actually get to live in eternity with him if you obey his word. His word is absolute. People who believe this will not go against what he says.

A lot of Leviticus is absurd non-sense, the homophobia tends to be the only thing from Leviticus that bigots like.

[Log4Girlz]

I agree with him 100%, gays should not be married. It's the word of god.

Which god?

[Gunloc]

See, that's the part that many of you don't seem to get. You think of it as a passive thing or whatever, but these people believe that there is actually a God that rules reality. They serve him above all, period. What he says goes, and you actually get to live in eternity with him if you obey his word. His word is absolute. People who believe this will not go against what he says.

Except that the vast majority of people that say they are devote followers only actually follow a very small amount of what the bible actually says is "law", mixed fibers and all that. (Obviously, other religions and belief systems are guilty of similar practices too.)

Hiding behind ignorance and dissonance to insure that their way of life is given reverence over other people of differing opinions, and inserting there beliefs into the lives of others, which they should have absolutely no say in.

[DECK'ARD]

Except that the vast majority of people that say they are devote followers only actually follow a very small amount of what the bible actually says is "law". (Mixed fibers and all that.) Hiding behind ignorance and dissonance to insure that their way of life is given reverence over other people lives which they should have absolutely no say in.

The good bits of the Bible can basically be distilled down to "Don't harm others". Throw the rest out, and just follow that. Far simpler.

We had morals before religion, and we have better morals when they aren't shaped by ignorance.

[Korey]

I agree with him 100%, gays should not be married. It's the word of god.

Ok.

[Famassu]

People don't seem to take into account that this is something that is just becoming really exposed. Unlike the race issue. I have plenty of old fashioned catholic relatives(Mexican) who don't agree with Obama on this. I wish they did but calling them bigots really does nothing positive. They aren't bad people they just have a mindset they were raised to believe and I believe before there time is done many will come around. Some already have. They came around by getting to know some gay and lesbian people personally these people never assaulted their beliefs or called them bigots. They were good people who changed old opinions by just being good people and understanding old habits sometimes died hard. A lot of people in this thread should know all they do is make the divide greater by assaulting people and labeling them. Like with the race issue I believe things are coming around and having a President proclaim his support is about as obvious a sign as any.

But hiding behind "they were just taught that way" doesn't make it okay. It makes the stance somewhat more understandable, but we as humans don't stop growing & learning when we get past certain point in life, as your own example shows. What is NOT okay is when some of these people don't even WANT to try to grow as people, but are content at being the hateful, bigoted people they are.

I agree with him 100%, gays should not be married. It's the word of god.

Marriage =! exclusive to Christians.

[Amir0x]

Awww, Manny, why you say this? :( Iceman: Even if you don't believe in gay marriage for religious reasons, why should there be a legal bar to it? This is a secular country after all. Not everyone believes in the Christian god or any god at all for that matter.

Yup. That's what is amazing to me. When did we get off making laws respecting the beliefs of any specific religion? These same people might agree that we need not makes laws like that, but then can't connect the dots that if you ban gay marriage based on these beliefs, then you're doing just that.

I once asked a person who was vehemently against gay marriage if they could come up with an argument on why it should be banned that wasn't related to religion. It devolved into a mumbling tirade about how it'll corrupt our children and how two gays can't get pregnant or something.


ALL people in this country deserve the right to pursue their happiness, and not on the terms of any people's messed up faiths.

[ReConstructDead]

I agree with him 100%, gays should not be married. It's the word of god.

*Sigh* We're in the 21st century, people.
How hard can it be to form your own, logical opinion instead of quoting a thousand year old book?
I just don't get it :(

[KevinCow]

....unless it suits them. (You forgot that line Joker)

One line in the book about gay people? Quote that scripture every second of the day!

Pages of quotes about being humble and treating others the way you'd want to be treated and helping the poor and needy and not being greedy? Ignore that shit or spin the hell out of it until it justifies what you want to do!

[DECK'ARD]

*Sigh* We're in the 21st century, people. How hard can it be to form your own, logical opinion instead of quoting a thousand year old book? I just don't get it :(

I don't get it either.

It's a failure of critical thinking, and using religious text as a justification for something that has no justification. It's a way of avoiding personal responsibility, for one's opinion and sometimes actions as well.

Why think for yourself when you can let an old book decide for you. A cop-out, and one that should have no impact on others because it's not coming from a position of equality, it's coming from one of judgement.

[Korey]

I don't get it either. It's a failure of critical thinking, and using religious text as a justification for something that has no justification. It's a way of avoiding personal responsibility, for one's opinion and sometimes actions as well. Why think for yourself when you can let an old book decide for you. A cop-out, and one that should have no impact on others because it's not coming from a position of equality, it's coming from one of judgement.

The worst part is that Pacquiao already believes that you're born gay. So he's already gotten over that hump and he STILL believes gays shouldn't be married.

Hello, asshat, that's like saying that redheads or lefthanded people shouldn't be allowed to marry because society arbitrarily decided that based on the demands of a fictional non-existant being.

[DECK'ARD]

The worst part is that Pacquiao already believes that you're born gay. So he's already gotten over that hump and he STILL believes gays shouldn't be married. Hello, asshat, that's like saying that redheads or lefthanded people shouldn't be allowed to marry because society arbitrarily decided that based on the demands of a fictional non-existant being.

Someone should ask him about his position on left-handed people.

They are in league with the Devil remember, so better burn them. Stopping them marrying won't be enough.

[Vagabundo]

I always find it interesting how biblical quotes are generally taken out of context: What Leviticus 20:12 was actually talking about. It was always something that bugged me when I would attend church. Everybody would act all genuinely friendly to each other, then BAM, some ridiculous judgement call about other folks race/sexual orientation/religion/political views. Just ugh, man.

Biblical historians tell us the Canaanite religions surrounding the Israelites at the time of Leviticus often included fertility rites consisting of sexual rituals. These rituals were thought to bring the blessing of the god or goddess on crop and livestock production. During the rituals, whole families, including husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, cousins, aunts and uncles would sometimes have sex. Also included was sex with temple prostitutes. In short, every kind of sexual practice imaginable was performed at these rituals, including homosexual sex. (See note 2.)

Oh God.

[JokerOfSpades]

....unless it suits them. (You forgot that line Joker)

Touché.

And it requires so much cognitive dissonance to believe that, to gloss over all the contradictions, inaccuracies, and the way we have such a much better understanding of everything in 2012 that these people really shouldn't be involved in law-making. Religion is a belief, one that should not be enforced on others and everyone must be equal in the eyes of the law. Organised religion was used to control, to divide, to conquer, we should be long past that now. And it's why Church should always be separate from State.

True, but many people who actually believe wouldn't agree, of course - God's law > All.

A lot of Leviticus is absurd non-sense, the homophobia tends to be the only thing from Leviticus that bigots like.

I'm sure that a lot of people don;t even follow the Old Testament. Yet they still use that verse all the time.

Except that the vast majority of people that say they are devote followers only actually follow a very small amount of what the bible actually says is "law", mixed fibers and all that. (Obviously, other religions and belief systems are guilty of similar practices too.) Hiding behind ignorance and dissonance to insure that their way of life is given reverence over other people of differing opinions, and inserting there beliefs into the lives of others, which they should have absolutely no say in.

Oh, no - that's absolutely true. It's annoying, the people who assume they can pick and choose.

[jaxword]

Is Zinga going to actually defend how the Christian God owns marriage or was it just a troll to rile up the atheist/pro-gay-marriage side?

[Monocle]

I agree with him 100%, gays should not be married. It's the word of god.

It's extraordinary that some people still fancy themselves so important to the supreme overwizard of earthrealm that they believe a trifling variation in human coupling could make even the slightest difference in the unfolding of his cosmic scheme. All this based on a vague passage in an ancient collection of parables and fables that was cobbled, patched, tacked and gummed together by dozens and scores of hands, translated, retranslated, revised, translated several more times, snipped, clipped, jimmied and majiggered during its rumbly tumbly down the dusty warrens of history, only to land here today before us, none the worse for wear in spite of it all, and relevant as ever to our daily lives.

Yes, it's in this venerable record of divine wisdom that we discover the truth about the most profound way we can relate to one another: only one kind of love is worthy of being dignified by ritual union, because daddy says so.

It's time to grow up and think for ourselves.

[captainnapalm]

No doubt the guy isn't the sharpest tool in the shed for following the word of this Leviticus guy, but should he be banned from certain places for not being pro gay-marriage?

I think the current climate in America, where you can get in so much trouble just for saying stuff, is hugely problematic. This is the umpteenth trial by media of late based on some or other comment or joke. It's just wrong.

[jaxword]

No doubt the guy isn't the sharpest tool in the shed for following the word of this Leviticus guy, but should he be banned from certain places for not being pro gay-marriage? I think the current climate in America, where you can get in so much trouble just for saying stuff, is hugely problematic. This is the umpteenth trial by media of late based on some or other comment or joke. It's just wrong.

I agree with part of this. The guy shouldn't be BANNED. He should have the right to say whatever backward, bigoted things he wants--and the right to accept the consequences, which will be ostracization and public shaming and people showing him how horrible he is.

But we should never, ever, take away anyone's rights to say something, even if they're terrible people.

However......I doubt this "banning" will really change anything about him anyways, so it's sort of moot. Also, America has faaaaaaaaaaaar bigger problems with censorship, not the least being attempts to deny things like evolution, history, facts, etc. in schools.

[DECK'ARD]

No doubt the guy isn't the sharpest tool in the shed for following the word of this Leviticus guy, but should he be banned from certain places for not being pro gay-marriage? I think the current climate in America, where you can get in so much trouble just for saying stuff, is hugely problematic. This is the umpteenth trial by media of late based on some or other comment or joke. It's just wrong.

It's a rather minor inconvenience for him than say being banned from getting married.

I'm sure he'll count his blessings.

[captainnapalm]

It's a rather minor inconvenience for him than say being banned from getting married. I'm sure he'll count his blessings.

I'm sure the bigger fallout is the ensuing media shitstorm that tends to follow these kinds of things. People have to grovel or risk losing their livelihoods sometimes.

[Igo]

I love that they limited their statement to Pacquiao and didn't explicitly say that all bigots aren't welcome on their premises.

[jaxword]

I'm sure the bigger fallout is the ensuing media shitstorm that tends to follow these kinds of things. People have to grovel or risk losing their livelihoods sometimes.

If you want to publicly say your opinion, you accept the responsibility of the response.

No one's FORCING him to blast this out.

That's what Freedom of Speech should really be about. Not "say anything I want" but "say anything I want and accept the responsibilities that come from that."

[Tim the Wiz]

I always find it interesting how biblical quotes are generally taken out of context: What Leviticus 20:12 was actually talking about. It was always something that bugged me when I would attend church. Everybody would act all genuinely friendly to each other, then BAM, some ridiculous judgement call about other folks race/sexual orientation/religion/political views. Just ugh, man.

There's a valid point in there. Decontextualized or in black-and-white or whatever way you see it, Leviticus also says women should be covered at all times and plenty other stuff no-one sensible gives a fig about. The essential factor is always interpretation. As intolerance melts away, these verses will be comfortably nudged aside like those which were once used to justify slavery. That's what they are, really: hollow excuses for the continuation of entrenched prejudice. But there are always people who stand on the wrong side of history. It's difficult to look them in the face without exasperation - or even rage, or mirth - for their myopic delusion.

[Famassu]

Actually, I agree with this. The guy shouldn't be BANNED. He should have the right to say whatever backward, bigoted things he wants--and the right to accept the consequences, which will be ostracization and public shaming and people showing him how horrible he is. But we should never, ever, take away anyone's rights to say something, even if they're terrible people.

No one is taking away his rights to say anything, he should just know that even words can have consequences and The Grove has every right to not serve anyone they don't want to serve.

[macuser1of5]

man these threads always bring out the 'derp don't be intolerant of my intolerance' posts.

[FyreWulff]

No doubt the guy isn't the sharpest tool in the shed for following the word of this Leviticus guy, but should he be banned from certain places for not being pro gay-marriage? I think the current climate in America, where you can get in so much trouble just for saying stuff, is hugely problematic. This is the umpteenth trial by media of late based on some or other comment or joke. It's just wrong.

Private property. Your freedoms don't overwrite the other person's freedom.

[jaxword]

No one is taking away his rights to say anything, he should just know that even words can have consequences and The Grove has every right to not serve anyone they don't want to serve.

No argument that the Grove has that right.

[Darklord]

like in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah

So he'd offer his young daughters to be gang raped and abused? You know, like in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah.

[CountAntonius]

But hiding behind "they were just taught that way" doesn't make it okay. It makes the stance somewhat more understandable, but we as humans don't stop growing & learning when we get past certain point in life, as your own example shows. What is NOT okay is when some of these people don't even WANT to try to grow as people, but are content at being the hateful, bigoted people they are.

Who's hiding? I just think there is a difference between hate mongers and people who have differing opinions. I also feel that the best way to open minds is by discussing things with people and not attacking them or labeling them.

Not sure how people think running around calling good people who maybe aren't as progressive minded as the rest of us bigots is the way to make things better. Makes me wonder if anyone of you knew your grandparents or older relatives(assuming they are from an older generation) and would call them bigots to their face cause they were raised with a certain view.

There are hateful bigots no doubt but I don't think every single person who disagrees automatically falls into that category.

[macuser1of5]

Not sure how people think running around calling good people who maybe aren't as progressive minded as the rest of us bigots is the way to make things better. Makes me wonder if anyone of you knew your grandparents or older relatives(assuming they are from an older generation) and would call them bigots to their face cause they were raised with a certain view.

by that same token, would you call a gay person a sinner to their face?

[JGS]

The only arguments against gay marriage come from the bible..

Hmmm....The only countries that ban gay marriage are Christian based? Or are you saying that a ban does not need an argument and only the Bible provides one?

Clearly there is more to it than that.

Anyway, Manny had every right to say what he said (It's not exactly a rare opinion) and the Grove had every right to not serve him.

[captainnapalm]

man these threads always bring out the 'derp don't be intolerant of my intolerance' posts.

It's a slippery slope when you have a hive mind at work, fueled by a politically correct media machine, that can judge people and put their livelihoods at risk for having opinions it doesn't agree with. It's fine now, because you agree that people shouldn't be against gay marriage, but it's not inconceivable that the hive mind could one day support a position that you don't.

[macuser1of5]

It's a slippery slope when you have a hive mind at work, fueled by a politically correct media machine, that can judge people and put their livelihoods at risk for having opinions it doesn't agree with. It's fine now, because you agree that people shouldn't be against gay marriage, but it's not inconceivable that the hive mind could one day support a position that you don't.

I'm sure Manny and Co can pool their riches together and make a 'no gay marriage here' television station.