[140.85]

"gods" definition of marriage? Christianity didn't invent marriage. So why should anybody care about what christians think marriage should be?

Many people, including myself, believe that God is the architect of the institution of marriage. Not just Christians. I don't think I ever suggested that people who don't share that belief should "care" about that.

[JGS]

Lulz, no it isn't. They are attacking what the person IS, not what they have chosen to be. If you choose to be religious and then act like a dickwit, then you can't defend yourself from ANY criticism.

You work on the assumption that being religious is not what you are. It doesn't matter anyway because discriminating on the basis of a person's choice is still discriminatory. The law is non-discriminating, but people are always discriminating which is their right. The Grove's actions prove this way more than Manny's.

Really? No one should be insulted? Hey, maybe you are strong enough that you don't give a shit what anyone says about you, but when you get attacked because of who or what you are EVERY DAY, it gets rough. You do know that bigots cause gays to do suicides every year simply through words & the attitude they show towards the gays? Bigotry is shit and people SHOULD care to educate those dumb enough to hold up beliefs that are harmful to other people. Bigotry has no place in today's world and the sooner we get rid of it, the better.

I said they shouldn't be upset and I'll add this is particularly true when it's by a minority of people not accepting of them.

I'm insulted by the use of the N-word by the Klan (& black people but that's a whole other thread topic). That doesn't mean I want to be a part of the group. Gay people who want to worship have plenty of choices to do so and it is a waste of life to concern yourself with the group that likes you least unless they are coming at you with pitchforks. If they're atheist/agnostic it's even more of a waste.

Bigots do not cause the suicides. A lack of courage/endurance/assistance in facing winnable challenges in life causes suicides- as well as the notion that suicide is anything other than stupid to begin with. Rather than waste time on the handful of people actually championing hate speech (Something being against gay marriage is not), focus on helping the most victimized to overcome the obstacle so that they realize, like tons of gay people already do, that they can have a happy life regardless of people's view of them.

I know different areas of the nation are different from others, but I have yet to see gay people being attacked on a daily basis for what they are. If you are applying that to gay marriage (Something most religious people don't even talk about until they are required to) or speech, then they are going to have to learn to live with that type of attack for the rest of their natural born lives whether it's legal or not just like every other minority.

Every group on the planet has to face verbal attacks like that. Gay people are certainly no exception and likely hated on as much as other minorities.

[Mercury Fred]

Many people, including myself, believe that God is the architect of the institution of marriage. Not just Christians. I don't think I ever suggested that people who don't share that belief should "care" about that.

See, here's the problem. You opt in to a group fantasy in order to help you make sense out of being alive-- no biggie, people have invented supernatural tales as long as there's been storytelling to help them cope with questions of death, dying, meaning of life, etc.-- but then you take that campy, antiquated set of myths and use them as an excuse to discriminate against your fellow man. Not cool.

[Bombadil]

I didn't say all religious people. Nor did I imply it, anymore than a statement that the sky is blue implies that it is never gray. There was no need to dust off your psych textbook. It's the result of poor reading skills, bad assumptions, and being an undergraduate.

I'm confident that there's absolutely no reason to believe that religious folk, who have despised secularists for centuries, are led to do so because atheists sometimes express their views frankly.

You've created two groups in your statement. The first group is "religious folk" and the second group is "secularists."

In your haste to defend yourself you've also criticized my reading skills and made a jab at my credibility based on the fact that I'm an undergraduate (good guess).

Your statements are rife with generalizations, fallacies, and backpedaling.

[Dude Abides]

You've created two groups in your statement. The first group is "religious folk" and the second group is "secularists." In your haste to defend yourself you've also criticized my reading skills and made a jab at my credibility based on the fact that I'm an undergraduate (good guess). Your statements are rife with generalizations, fallacies, and backpedaling.

Is there an argument here or are you hoping mere invocation of the word fallacy will be persuasive?

I had a suspicion that you were an undergraduate when you chose to recite irrelevant undergrad-level knowledge rather than addressing the substance of what I said. It's a common mistake made by undergrads, a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

[Bombadil]

Is there an argument here or are you hoping mere invocation of the word fallacy will be persuasive? I had a suspicion that you were an undergraduate when you chose to recite irrelevant undergrad-level knowledge rather than addressing the substance of what I said. It's a common mistake made by undergrads, a little knowledge being a dangerous thing.

If you clump people together in groups, you're making generalizations.

I don't need a PhD to know that.

Religious folk. Secularists. Those are the groups.

My original statement was to Obsessed. I said that innocent people get caught in the crossfire of generalizations. I said that if the certain members of the vocal minority of secularists (notice I'm doing my best here not to generalize) had more tact, then the reputation of the group as a whole would improve.

Your response was to take the first part of my final sentence ("I'm confident") and respond contrarily with a generalization.

That's all this is - me advising people not to make generalizations, and you making generalizations.

I'm done with you. Go wave your graduate degree in someone else's face.

[Famassu]

You work on the assumption that being religious is not what you are. It doesn't matter anyway because discriminating on the basis of a person's choice is still discriminatory. The law is non-discriminating, but people are always discriminating which is their right. The Grove's actions prove this way more than Manny's.

You can choose not to be religious. You have to actively BELIEVE to be a Christian. You have to actively think about these things and CHOOSE that yeah, you are alright with whatever morals you decide to pick & choose from the religion you belong to. And if you decide to be a bigoted asshole Christian (note: not saying all Christians are this way), then you are not living in the 21st century and deserve all the ridicule you get.

And again, how is being intolerant about intolerance bad? Racism didn't go away by just hugging everyone and not caring what people thought about them, people had to go all "FUCK YOU, WE ARE JUST AS GOOD AS YOU ARE" and pretty much force (enough) people to change their attitude to get the equal status they had every right to have. If you're a bigot, you deserve all the shit you get (you can sprout that BS all you want, I don't mean to take that privilige away from bigoted people, but I have no sympathy when there are consequences).

Being intolerant about intolerance doesn't try to take away rights from bigots or deny them anything, it's just about actively showing that being a bigot is not a-okay nowadays. Being a racist is not socially acceptable anymore and it definitely is okay to give shit to racists (I don't give a shit if they are Mother Theresa otherwise). Same should apply to homophobes. Just because its roots are in religion more than racisms matters shit all.

I said they shouldn't be upset and I'll add this is particularly true when it's by a minority of people not accepting of them.

It's not a minority, not by a landslide. The ones who really HATE might be a minority, but there are still the kind of "I'm not a homophobe (I KNOW some homos! SEE!), BUT..." people who more or less do not completely accept homosexuality. It doesn't matter that they don't treat you with outright disgust, but they still don't accept all parts of you completely. If it was a minority, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

And my god how naive do you have to be. You can SAY "hey, don't care if we hate you/don't want you to have the same rights as we do/don't fully accept you as a person", but fuck you really, that does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the person who has to face contempt every day. How fucking dumb do you have to be to not understand that? Just saying "be stronger" doesn't make someone stronger. Not to even mention there are examples of these strong people who come out of the closet and be all "yeah, I'm gay, deal with it" who've later commited suicide, when the treatment they've gotten hasn't gotten any better (and has just been getting worse).

I'm insulted by the use of the N-word by the Klan (& black people but that's a whole other thread topic). That doesn't mean I want to be a part of the group. Gay people who want to worship have plenty of choices to do so and it is a waste of life to concern yourself with the group that likes you least unless they are coming at you with pitchforks. If they're atheist/agnostic it's even more of a waste.

You are a part of a society. You can't just shut yourself out of it. And if there's a noticeable part of that society who don't accept who you are, then that can be really, really stressing emotionally.

You obviously have never been a part of any discrimination nor do you understand anything of this phenomenon, so you can just shut up about how easy it is to ignore the world around you when they are more or less against who you're born to be.

Bigots do not cause the suicides. A lack of courage/endurance/assistance in facing winnable challenges in life causes suicides- as well as the notion that suicide is anything other than stupid to begin with.

DISCRIMINATION definitely DOES cause especially young people to get to a point of despair that drives them to (at least trying to) commit suicide. They don't outright hold the gun, but they are still the sole reason why these WEAKSAUCE teens attempt it. Really, tell that to the teens who face ridicule and hate each & every day because of other youngsters who've most likely "inherited" their shitty bigoted attitudes from their parents.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...teens-20120202

That's not from the 1980s or 1990s, that's from earlier THIS YEAR.

Rather than waste time on the handful of people actually championing hate speech (Something being against gay marriage is not)

It's not hate-speech, but's it's still prejudiceness and lack of respect towards a certain group of people. You don't accept who they are. And again, if it was only a "handful" of people, it wouldn't have been such a big deal when Obama declared support for same-sex marriage.

Focus on helping the most victimized to overcome the obstacle so that they realize, like tons of gay people already do, that they can have a happy life regardless of people's view of them.

The help does not reach everybody and just because there IS help, it doesn't change the fact that bigotry should not be accepted.

I know different areas of the nation are different from others, but I have yet to see gay people being attacked on a daily basis for what they are. If you are applying that to gay marriage (Something most religious people don't even talk about until they are required to) or speech, then they are going to have to learn to live with that type of attack for the rest of their natural born lives whether it's legal or not just like every other minority.

You're a sad, sad panda. People shouldn't just accept the cards they've been dealt, people have to be ACTIVE if they want the situation to change. Gays shouldn't just accept that they are in in a somewhat lesser position in the world & not accepted by a large group of people, nothing is going to change with that kind of attitude.

Every group on the planet has to face verbal attacks like that. Gay people are certainly no exception and likely hated on as much as other minorities.

Bigotry is not ok in any situation, be that racism or homophobe slander. We should try to improve our world and at least raise our children to be open to different kinds of people in the world. The change won't be quick, but even a small step to a better direction is an important improvement.

[CornBurrito]

Gays should just call it something else other than marriage. Is the word that damn important?

Then why shouldn't it be called marriage?

[Dude Abides]

If you clump people together in groups, you're making generalizations. I don't need a PhD to know that. Religious folk. Secularists. Those are the groups. My original statement was to Obsessed. I said that innocent people get caught in the crossfire of generalizations. I said that if the certain members of the vocal minority of secularists (notice I'm doing my best here not to generalize) had more tact, then the reputation of the group as a whole would improve. Your response was to take the first part of my final sentence ("I'm confident") and respond contrarily with a generalization. That's all this is - me advising people not to make generalizations, and you making generalizations. I'm done with you. Go wave your graduate degree in someone else's face.

Actually you claimed I made an assertion about all religious people in your eagerness to defend your tone trolling. See that third sentence in your 2:13 post? Your claim was obviously false to anyone familiar with the conventions of the English language, and a transparent attempt to erect a straw man that you could then hammer down with your penetrating Psych 101 insight. That was funny and typical of pretentious undergrads so I tweaked you for it. Maybe next semester your prof will explain to you that generalizations are an inherent feature of human thought and communication, and that it's intellectually lazy to complain about generalizations rather than address why a specific generalization is or is not warranted.

[Ninja Scooter]

It got all Good Will Hunting up in here all of a sudden.

[Talladega Knight]

people are in here fucking regurgitating gordon wood

[DECK'ARD]

You work on the assumption that being religious is not what you are. It doesn't matter anyway because discriminating on the basis of a person's choice is still discriminatory. The law is non-discriminating, but people are always discriminating which is their right. The Grove's actions prove this way more than Manny's. I said they shouldn't be upset and I'll add this is particularly true when it's by a minority of people not accepting of them. I'm insulted by the use of the N-word by the Klan (& black people but that's a whole other thread topic). That doesn't mean I want to be a part of the group. Gay people who want to worship have plenty of choices to do so and it is a waste of life to concern yourself with the group that likes you least unless they are coming at you with pitchforks. If they're atheist/agnostic it's even more of a waste. Bigots do not cause the suicides. A lack of courage/endurance/assistance in facing winnable challenges in life causes suicides- as well as the notion that suicide is anything other than stupid to begin with. Rather than waste time on the handful of people actually championing hate speech (Something being against gay marriage is not), focus on helping the most victimized to overcome the obstacle so that they realize, like tons of gay people already do, that they can have a happy life regardless of people's view of them. I know different areas of the nation are different from others, but I have yet to see gay people being attacked on a daily basis for what they are. If you are applying that to gay marriage (Something most religious people don't even talk about until they are required to) or speech, then they are going to have to learn to live with that type of attack for the rest of their natural born lives whether it's legal or not just like every other minority. Every group on the planet has to face verbal attacks like that. Gay people are certainly no exception and likely hated on as much as other minorities.

Your post basically boils down to 'deal with it', that's just not good enough and belittles what other people go through. I've seen someone have a pint glass smashed in his face (luckily plastic) just for putting his arm round his bf, and then the bar tried to remove the victim rather than the aggressor. Which me and others stopped. The gay couple were painted as 'inciting' it, it was disgusting, and you wonder what people have to deal with? Now add in what they are dealing with just for being who they are, and you might have some clue about why suicide rates are so much higher. They aren't 'weak' people, everyone needs acceptance.

This all stems from one section of society being seen as lesser than than the majority, and things like being against gay marriage sends exactly that message. That they aren't good enough, which means they don't have to be treated like everyone else.

I was always struck by a post you made a while back that if one of your children turned out to be gay it would make you reconsider your views and religious beliefs. So does something have to directly impact you before there is a problem?

And why would you wait until then?

If one of your children does turn out to be gay, not only will they have to deal with coming to terms with their own sexuality but also deal with you coming to terms with your acceptance of it. And what if they don't actually tell you for fear of your reaction? Many gay kids do try to deal with it on their own, and you shouldn't just deal with it if it becomes an issue. Not only for their benefit but for how they see others as well.

[jaxword]

There's no gay marriage in Communist Japan?

Did someone seriously say Japan was communist, because if so ahahaha, that's some blissful ignorance.

Also, Japan is already on the road to same-sex marriage. About a year ago a religious temple recognized it for the first time ever:

http://shunkoinzentemple.blogspot.ca...-and-lgbt.html

Hasn't reached government level yet, but that's a hell of a first step.

[JokerOfSpades]

Sorry if I'm bringing this back, but I did find out the relevant New Testament verse - it's Romans 1:18-32.

[Clevinger]

Bigots do not cause the suicides. A lack of courage/endurance/assistance in facing winnable challenges in life causes suicides- as well as the notion that suicide is anything other than stupid to begin with.

You're an unfortunate human being.

[encephalon]

Awww, Manny, why you say this? :( Iceman: Even if you don't believe in gay marriage for religious reasons, why should there be a legal bar to it? This is a secular country after all. Not everyone believes in the Christian god or any god at all for that matter.

The response I've seen to this is "we can't help but abide by our conscience" ... "conscience" meaning rules and regulations (misinterpreted or not) set out by the bible.

[Byakuya769]

Sucks that people are born in a way against God's will. But I'm not against them....


Right, Manny?

[Byakuya769]

Many people, including myself, believe that God is the architect of the institution of marriage. Not just Christians. I don't think I ever suggested that people who don't share that belief should "care" about that.

We also believe that our God is the architect of sexual relationships. You going to join me in my battle to criminalize premarital sex! Let's get it done!!!!

[Jangaroo]

You work on the assumption that being religious is not what you are. It doesn't matter anyway because discriminating on the basis of a person's choice is still discriminatory. The law is non-discriminating, but people are always discriminating which is their right. The Grove's actions prove this way more than Manny's. I said they shouldn't be upset and I'll add this is particularly true when it's by a minority of people not accepting of them. I'm insulted by the use of the N-word by the Klan (& black people but that's a whole other thread topic). That doesn't mean I want to be a part of the group. Gay people who want to worship have plenty of choices to do so and it is a waste of life to concern yourself with the group that likes you least unless they are coming at you with pitchforks. If they're atheist/agnostic it's even more of a waste. Bigots do not cause the suicides. A lack of courage/endurance/assistance in facing winnable challenges in life causes suicides- as well as the notion that suicide is anything other than stupid to begin with. Rather than waste time on the handful of people actually championing hate speech (Something being against gay marriage is not), focus on helping the most victimized to overcome the obstacle so that they realize, like tons of gay people already do, that they can have a happy life regardless of people's view of them. I know different areas of the nation are different from others, but I have yet to see gay people being attacked on a daily basis for what they are. If you are applying that to gay marriage (Something most religious people don't even talk about until they are required to) or speech, then they are going to have to learn to live with that type of attack for the rest of their natural born lives whether it's legal or not just like every other minority. Every group on the planet has to face verbal attacks like that. Gay people are certainly no exception and likely hated on as much as other minorities.

Your "deal with it" attitude is terrible. We shouldn't be letting people get away with being prejudice and harmful. Because everyone can have the courage/endurance/assistance to stand up and avoid suicide right? How about we fight to stop people from marginalizing others (whether it be gay rights, etc.). Just because people should be expected to face hate speech and personal attacks doesn't mean it's okay to just let it loose out there.