[mclem]

Is there any other past instances with a show having such a big staff change and doesn't become the shambling husk of what it once was?

Well, Doctor Who :-)

[Nappuccino]

Well, Doctor Who :-)

The simpsons.

[Shaneus]

man if sony doesn't hire back megan ganz/guts the creative staff of 1-3 completely, they deserve whatever's coming to them.

You know what'll be coming to them?

They'll lose the current fanbase. Completely. Get a new one which is bigger, shows more on the ratings and gets them more money.

Yeah, that'll learn 'em.

[Massa]

You know what'll be coming to them? They'll lose the current fanbase. Completely. Get a new one which is bigger, shows more on the ratings and gets them more money. Yeah, that'll learn 'em.

lol

[big ander]

That's unfair. He doesn't have to say anything. Might not be his personality to comment. Maybe he doesn't really get the situation. Maybe he didn't like Dan. He has a million other balls in the air right now, doing Community for him could be going there, reading his lines, and then going home. And that's fine. Just because he's on the show doesn't mean he has to share the passion for it that we all do. It's fine if he doesn't.

I think it's fair. I'm not saying he's not allowed to not be invested in the show, not want to publicly comment, whatever. It's his life. I'm just saying that he's, then, intentionally putting out a message that he's not invested and doesn't care. Which is, again, fine. It's his choice. But it's hard to say that that shouldn't make him look like a bit of a jerk in the eyes of fans. Especially when he's using social media to promote dj sets instead.

What if, and I know this a crazy concept, Community is still actually good this year, regardless of the new staff? I know, I know, its crazy, but maybe we don't need to get into panic mode just yet? I agree the show will be different without Dan, but considering that I feel that Dan was getting way too ambitious and out-there for his own good (see the Dreamatorium episode) maybe that isn't a bad thing.

It's maybe feasible, but it's extremely unlikely. Here's stuff I have seen that these people have worked on: the bad Just Shoot Me!, the TERRIBLE IT Crowd US pilot (also they apparently never even attempted to contact the writer/producer of the original, Graham Linehan), and the very good Happy Endings. However, what I've read doesn't make it sound like their role on HE was very huge.
So there's a very good chance the new show will be awful and will not be in line with Harmon's vision for the show at all. That might not happen, but it probably will.

Is there any other past instances with a show having such a big staff change and doesn't become the shambling husk of what it once was?

A lot. It's far more common than you think. It's just that, usually, the shows with easily replaceable cast/crews aren't as good to begin with.

Season 1 is the best season when you look at it in the overall picture as the characters were more grounded and you had a recurring theme through out each episode which led to character development. Season 2 and 3 are better due to some of the best individual episodes of comedy TV ever, but characters became less grounded and some became too much of a caricature.

I think seasons 2 and 3 have much more solid season-long arcs.

[ivysaur12]

I think it's fair. I'm not saying he's not allowed to not be invested in the show, not want to publicly comment, whatever. It's his life. I'm just saying that he's, then, intentionally putting out a message that he's not invested and doesn't care. Which is, again, fine. It's his choice. But it's hard to say that that shouldn't make him look like a bit of a jerk in the eyes of fans. Especially when he's using social media to promote dj sets instead.

If had something insightful to say about Dan's departure, he might of. Or not. Maybe he shot him a text. Maybe he called him. Maybe he didn't. I don't know. But not posting something on twitter that could be a very personal development (or not, who knows) might be something that he's not comfortable with (or not).

Judging him on an inaction to comment on twitter is stilly.

[border]

... and why should the viewers behave any different? If your favorite author dies in the midst of a writing a series would you accept, without comment, any replacement chosen by the publisher to complete the books? Even if the completed work turned out to be good it wouldn't be the same because it's not from the pen of the original author.

It's a little ridiculous to compare a novel to a television series. One is a singular effort, while the other is incredibly collaborative and ongoing. "It's not from the pen of the original author?" Out of a 22 episode season, how many episodes does Harmon write and direct?

I think the only time you can consider a TV show to have an "author" is in limited run BBC shows where a single person or a duo writes all the episodes (The Office, Red Dwarf). In America the closest thing would probably be South Park, since IIRC Matt Stone and Trey Parker do almost everything.

My point was more that some of the superfans will turn their noses up at this no matter if it's good or it's bad.....if it's the different or if it's the same. The showrunner change has left them jaded beyond impartiality. Changes that would or could have happened under Harmon (such as the decidedly different structuring of Season 3 episodes) will be viewed with contempt rather than an open mind.

[wenis]

lol

could happen, we don't know man. What if next season it turns into this huge thing, huge ratings, finally beats TBBT in ratings and dominates with key demo's.

happy or still upset with the show?

we don't know shit at this point.

[ivysaur12]

It's a little ridiculous to compare a novel to a television series. One is a singular effort, while the other is incredibly collaborative and ongoing. "It's not from the pen of the original author?" Out of a 22 episode season, how many episodes does Harmon write and direct? I think the only time you can consider a TV show to have an "author" is in limited run BBC shows where a single person or a duo writes all the episodes (The Office, Red Dwarf). In America the closest thing would probably be South Park, since IIRC Matt Stone and Trey Parker do almost everything. My point was more that some of the superfans will turn their noses up at this no matter if it's good or it's bad.....if it's the different or if it's the same. The showrunner change has left them jaded beyond impartiality. Changes that would or could have happened under Harmon (such as the decidedly different structuring of Season 3 episodes) will be viewed with contempt rather than an open mind.

Eh, yes and no. For some shows, absolutely. Some shows have an absolute momentum going into a third season where the showrunner can remove him or herself somewhat.

I guess I'll compare Harmon to the show I'm working on now, because I've heard they're really similar: while they might not be in the room 100% of the time (or even 75%), every single script is rewritten from page 1 to whatever by them. They are heavily invested in the post production, making sure that the editing is done to a science. While there is a collaborative effort in terms of "character A does this during act 1 and character B makes this joke or says this," the hands-on showrunner absolutely has the final say and can rewrite whole parts of episodes.

It really just depends on the show.

[big ander]

If had something insightful to say about Dan's departure, he might of. Or not. Maybe he shot him a text. Maybe he called him. Maybe he didn't. I don't know. But not posting something on twitter that could be a very personal development (or not, who knows) might be something that he's not comfortable with (or not). Judging him on an inaction to comment on twitter is stilly.

No no, look: I'm saying it's fine for him if he finds it too personal to tweet about (though I don't think that's true when he goes on rants about being "real" in raps and stuff), fine if he just talked to dan on his own, whatever. Like I said, it's his choice. But I do think any public figure like that has a semi-obligation to their fans. And at this point he's consciously not commenting on it or divulging what his mood on it is. So it's not illogical for fans to find him a bit unkind. Could it just be that he's uncomfortable? Sure. But it's a "curse of fame" sort of thing.

[ivysaur12]

No no, look: I'm saying it's fine for him if he finds it too personal to tweet about (though I don't think that's true when he goes on rants about being "real" in raps and stuff), fine if he just talked to dan on his own, whatever. Like I said, it's his choice. But I do think any public figure like that has a semi-obligation to their fans. And at this point he's consciously not commenting on it or divulging what his mood on it is. So it's not illogical for fans to find him a bit unkind. Could it just be that he's uncomfortable? Sure. But it's a "curse of fame" sort of thing.

I think you're blowing this out of proportion. He doesn't have an obligation to do anything, especially if he feel some way on Dan's departure that might not shed Dan in the most positive light (or not, I have no idea!). He has no obligation to do anything, even if the other cast did. He obviously knows Dan is gone, and he'll deal with it however he wants to. Holding him to any public action, especially when he's not the top billed actor, is, in my mind, silly.

[beat]

You know what'll be coming to them? They'll lose the current fanbase. Completely. Get a new one which is bigger, shows more on the ratings and gets them more money. Yeah, that'll learn 'em.

This is still an NBC show, so good luck with that!

Community was a cult show. I can't remember the last time a cult show abandoned its fans and its formula and found higher ratings.

It's a little ridiculous to compare a novel to a television series. One is a singular effort, while the other is incredibly collaborative and ongoing. "It's not from the pen of the original author?" Out of a 22 episode season, how many episodes does Harmon write and direct?

The most involved showrunners (David Milch, David E Kelley *(at least in the first season of a show), Aaron Sorkin) famously rewrite every script, whether or not they take credit for it. And yes, there is a lot of creative work the original writers did, but that sort of obsessive ownership does create a sense of authorship even in a collaborative medium.

WRT Harmon's authorship, I think it's clear from any interview, podcast, panel, blog post, or old Youtube video how much of Community's sensibility came from him. And he's talked on commentary tracks about how demanding he can be in the editing process.

That said, you might be interested in this book chapter and this post about showrunning and authorship. (incidentally, it finally got me to listen to Nerdist Writers' Panel 22, where McKenna and Harmon talk about the process of writing Remedial Chaos Theory. (edit: "Groundcop Day", awesome.)

[Shurs]

might of.

Really?

[adamsappel]

Community is one of the most clever comedies I've ever seen. They take hard risks with the presentation of the story. I thought the 8-bit episode was brilliant, but it had zero-appeal for the non-regular viewer. I'm surprised NBC ever greenlit that script. I'm reminded of the original plans Jerry Seinfeld had for his final season of the show (things like a Claymation episode, or one where Kramer is shrunken down to tiny size). Not sure how that last one could be accomplished, but Community is really playing with the format (and getting punished for it).

[reilo]

At this point, I expect the show to be canceled 2 or 3 episodes into the fourth season.

[SickBoy]

I sort of stopped reading the massive amount of back-and-forth, but there was that post earlier talking about how fans will be looking for reasons to hate the show, and I think that's true.

I'm willing to go into S4 with an open mind. It's Harmon's show and I get that, but are the writers capable of churning out stuf like the Law & Order episode or some of my preferred episodes? Is Harmon more about the characters or about oddities like the air conditioning repair school or Chairman Chang, which I could have lived without?

I'm not particularly confident in the change (it definitely wasn't broke), but I don't think this will undoubtedly break the show. I hope it doesn't.

[ivysaur12]

Really?

Sweet, dude. You're a winner.

[Shaneus]

lol

Well, it's a niche show at the moment. With writers (or at least, showrunners) from other, less "wacky" shows it could well end up being a little more Average Joe-friendly. With that, the vast majority of people who adore it now will likely stop watching, while inversely it will attract a more Whitney/BBT crowd.

Not sure where that lol came from.

[ivysaur12]

Community isn't going to get more popular, but it (and Whitney) might do well enough to at least survive on Friday.

[bengraven]

At this point, I expect the show to be canceled 2 or 3 episodes into the fourth season.

I actually predict it will happen like this.

And then we'll just get the "UNAIRED EPISODES FOR THE FIRST TIME HERE!" on the season 3-4 DVD/Blu Ray.

[Poimandres]

I hope the show is better after it comes back, and has ratings high enough to fulfill the sixseason prophecy. This will lead to confused and conflicted fans.

[border]

The most involved showrunners (David Milch, David E Kelley *(at least in the first season of a show), Aaron Sorkin) famously rewrite every script, whether or not they take credit for it. And yes, there is a lot of creative work the original writers did, but that sort of obsessive ownership does create a sense of authorship even in a collaborative medium.

I just think it's a little different than say, someone besides JK Rowling writing a new Harry Potter. You have characters that were brought to life not only by other writers, but by the actors' themselves and their chemistry together. I particularly reject an auteur label in the case of comedies, where the jokes are being written besides people besides the producers or showrunners. I can see it a little more in the case of TV dramas, where the dialogue is less important. David Milch and David Chase I can see more as authors, even though they weren't doing all the work on Deadwood and The Sopranos.

Any shift in Community's tone or presentation will be seen as negative not because it's lower quality, but because it isn't done with Harmon's approval....which strikes me as a bit unfair. Particularly when somebody says something like "I henceforth declare Season 4 to be nothing more than non-canon fan fiction!"

But then again, maybe I just don't have the respect for authorship that other people do. I wouldn't immediately oppose an accomplished author taking on the Harry Potter universe (at least not for a side-story). I didn't oppose other writers tackling Neil Gaiman's Sandman.....and I'm not opposed to Steig Larsson's wife writing new novels in The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo series. The last season of Scrubs struck me as far more of a FUCKING STUPID IDEA than the fourth season of Community, and for Scrubs the showrunner was actually on board with all the ridiculous changes to cast and format.

Thanks for the links -- I will check them out and respond when I have a bit more time in an evening.

I'm surprised NBC ever greenlit that script. I'm reminded of the original plans Jerry Seinfeld had for his final season of the show (things like a Claymation episode, or one where Kramer is shrunken down to tiny size)

That sounds insane, I had never heard about that before. Is there any more information on this? It is strange to hear considering that Seinfeld never played with its format, outside of that dumb "backwards" episode.

[Shurs]

Sweet, dude. You're a winner.

Sorry, ivysaur12. I wasn't sure if it was some sort of Community in-joke.

I guess not.

[Greyface]

Thanks for the links -- I will check them out and respond when I have a bit more time in an evening.

ivysaur12 and beat have already beat me to pointing out how Dan is an auteur but it's worth noting that he isn't the only one on the creative team who is leaving.

But then again, maybe I just don't have the respect for authorship that other people do. I wouldn't immediately oppose an accomplished author taking on the Harry Potter universe (at least not for a side-story). I didn't oppose other writers tackling Neil Gaiman's Sandman.....and I'm not opposed to Steig Larsson's wife writing new novels in The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo series. The last season of Scrubs struck me as far more of a FUCKING STUPID IDEA than the fourth season of Community, and for Scrubs the showrunner was actually on board with all the ridiculous changes to cast and format.

fwiw unlike in those examples you chose Dan Harmon wasn't done with his show before it was given to someone else. And considering the differences between comic book characters and real live actors it's practically impossible he'll ever get the chance to do it again.

I just think it's a little different than say, someone besides JK Rowling writing a new Harry Potter. You have characters that were brought to life not only by other writers, but by the actors' themselves and their chemistry together. I particularly reject an auteur label in the case of comedies, where the jokes are being written besides people besides the producers or showrunners. I can see it a little more in the case of TV dramas, where the dialogue is less important. David Milch and David Chase I can see more as authors, even though they weren't doing all the work on Deadwood and The Sopranos. Any shift in Community's tone or presentation will be seen as negative not because it's lower quality, but because it isn't done with Harmon's approval....which strikes me as a bit unfair. Particularly when somebody says something like "I henceforth declare Season 4 to be nothing more than non-canon fan fiction!"

I sort of stopped reading the massive amount of back-and-forth, but there was that post earlier talking about how fans will be looking for reasons to hate the show, and I think that's true. I'm willing to go into S4 with an open mind. It's Harmon's show and I get that, but are the writers capable of churning out stuf like the Law & Order episode or some of my preferred episodes? Is Harmon more about the characters or about oddities like the air conditioning repair school or Chairman Chang, which I could have lived without? I'm not particularly confident in the change (it definitely wasn't broke), but I don't think this will undoubtedly break the show. I hope it doesn't.

I hope the show is better after it comes back, and has ratings high enough to fulfill the sixseason prophecy. This will lead to confused and conflicted fans.

I'm not opposed to the idea of new show runners or fan fiction in theory. But just like I wouldn't read any work of literature just because it has Harry, Hermione and Ron, I wouldn't watch any tv show just because it has Britta, Troy, Annie, Abed and so on. To my mind, the fourth season will be like a new show. My default attitude to new shows isn't to hate or sneer—it's to ignore them. I don't know the new showrunners, I don't have a reason to follow their projects. If there is overwhelming critical acclaim for the new showrunners' take on Community in its own right (i.e. not just because we get to see more of characters/actors that we love or they are following Dan's playbook or they provide a conclusion to the show) then I'll check it out. As things stand though, I won't be tuning in.

[big ander]

I think you're blowing this out of proportion. He doesn't have an obligation to do anything, especially if he feel some way on Dan's departure that might not shed Dan in the most positive light (or not, I have no idea!). He has no obligation to do anything, even if the other cast did. He obviously knows Dan is gone, and he'll deal with it however he wants to. Holding him to any public action, especially when he's not the top billed actor, is, in my mind, silly.

I don't think I am because I don't think it's a big deal. You're still talking private life there with talking to dan and stuff. I'm talking public. He hasn't done anything public. Which, once more, is fine. his choice. But it sucks for fans. That is literally all I am saying.

[cutmeamango]

Great season finale. Dean is forever awesome.

Shame that Harmon lost his baby, but hopefully its foster parents are funnier and brighter.

[big ander]

Great season finale. Dean is forever awesome. Shame that Harmon lost his baby, but hopefully its foster parents are funnier and brighter.

Seems to imply that you don't think Harmon is funny or bright, but you've liked the show a lot recently? Huh

Unless you're just saying that you love the show now and hope it gets even BETTER after losing some writers and the showrunner, which...well that's not going to happen. Even if it somehow remains a great show, it'll be a completely different one.

[snesfreak]

I don't know what to expect...

[Poimandres]

Seems to imply that you don't think Harmon is funny or bright, but you've liked the show a lot recently? Huh Unless you're just saying that you love the show now and hope it gets even BETTER after losing some writers and the showrunner, which...well that's not going to happen. Even if it somehow remains a great show, it'll be a completely different one.

Ah, it might be completely different... but also better.

For the record, I really doubt this will happen but it's possible!

[AniHawk]

You know what'll be coming to them? They'll lose the current fanbase. Completely. Get a new one which is bigger, shows more on the ratings and gets them more money. Yeah, that'll learn 'em.

you're right. that's pretty common of comedies that air on friday nights.

[Rehynn]

We should hook up Dan Harmon with Tim Schafer. Whatever they would come up with would probably be awesome.

[Shaneus]

you're right. that's pretty common of comedies that air on friday nights.

I don't know if that's sarcasm or not... I don't live in the US.

[mclem]

We should hook up Dan Harmon with Tim Schafer. Whatever they would come up with would probably be awesome.

Wild'n'crazy suggestion: Beryl Vertue. The Beeb is *the* place for auteurs, and we could badly use some new blood in the sitcom world over here.

[Booya]

I don't know if that's sarcasm or not... I don't live in the US.

Putting shows on friday evenings is not that good for the show because people tend to go out on friday... not only in the US

[mclem]

Putting shows on friday evenings is not that good for the show because people tend to go out on friday... not only in the US

Except, as I indicated upthread, people go out on Fridays in the UK, too, but there's still been a healthy enviornment for comedy on those nights. I think it's actually a self-perpetuating thing.

[Tookay]

Except, as I indicated upthread, people go out on Fridays in the UK, too, but there's still been a healthy enviornment for comedy on those nights. I think it's actually a self-perpetuating thing.

Friday nights in the US is like a death sentence, unless your show's in the CBS police procedural elderly demographic.

[Booya]

Except, as I indicated upthread, people go out on Fridays in the UK, too, but there's still been a healthy enviornment for comedy on those nights. I think it's actually a self-perpetuating thing.

fair enough, there are lots of differences around the world in programming.
Here in germany they start of new comedy shows on saturday noon (!). They started years ago with HIMYM and put in on weekday evenings couple of months later. I dont get it, but now theyre doing the same with community here in germany, not that id like to see it. Dubs ruin every good linguistic joke for me.

[Lijik]

I just got the "Come on I'm dean" joke. I laughed the first time because it was the dean being silly, but Come On Eileen just came on my shuffle and I realized it was a direct reference to that song

[big ander]

Alison Brie is on this week's Comedy Bang Bang. (recorded last week so nothing on Dan, not that there would be anyway)
And Gillian was on last week's episode if you missed it.

[gabbo]

Except, as I indicated upthread, people go out on Fridays in the UK, too, but there's still been a healthy enviornment for comedy on those nights. I think it's actually a self-perpetuating thing.

And I wish North American programming would follow suit, but in the last decade and a half, if your show isn't science fiction, Friday is where you put its burial plot.
I'll still give it a chance, but my expectations are definitely lowered.

[border]

fwiw unlike in those examples you chose Dan Harmon wasn't done with his show before it was given to someone else.

Steig Larsson had outlines for new Dragon Tattoo novels; he wasn't finished with that series at the time of his death. There are loose ends in the story that did not get tied up -- it wasn't a trilogy by design, only by circumstance. If his girlfriend chooses to follow his blueprints and make more novels I'd be quite interested.....though it sounds like since the rest of his family are such douchebags they won't allow it to happen.

I think extending a series beyond its natural endpoint is far worse than replacing a showrunner or an author in an unfinished series. Which is why I'd again point to Scrubs as being a far worse offender than Community.

[maharg]

I think the only time you can consider a TV show to have an "author" is in limited run BBC shows where a single person or a duo writes all the episodes (The Office, Red Dwarf). In America the closest thing would probably be South Park, since IIRC Matt Stone and Trey Parker do almost everything.

Babylon 5: 100 out of 110 episodes written by JMS. Now there's a showrunner.

Steig Larsson had outlines for new Dragon Tattoo novels; he wasn't finished with that series at the time of his death. There are loose ends in the story that did not get tied up -- it wasn't a trilogy by design, only by circumstance. If his girlfriend chooses to follow his blueprints and make more novels I'd be quite interested.....though it sounds like since the rest of his family are such douchebags they won't allow it to happen. I think extending a series beyond its natural endpoint is far worse than replacing a showrunner or an author in an unfinished series. Which is why I'd again point to Scrubs as being a far worse offender than Community.

Dune has been basically ruined by his son, turned into tripe. On the other hand, I think Christopher Tolkien has handled his fathers' work with a lot of respect, and I think his way is the way to go when work goes unfinished due to death. I'd rather have seen Herbert's notes than Kevin J. Anderson's juvenile take on them.

[Hot Coldman]

There's only 8 series of Scrubs. And I love them all.

Well, except Series 7.

[Backwards Marathon]

Wow didn't know Harmon was gone until now, my day is ruined.

[AlphaTwo00]

Hey snesfreak, did you end up doing a batch of GIFs for the last three episodes?

[snesfreak]

Hey snesfreak, did you end up doing a batch of GIFs for the last three episodes?

I started them then the Harmon news came out, haven't gotten around to finishing them yet.

[Buckethead]

That 8-bit episode was absolutely incredible.

[ivysaur12]

Looks like most of the writing staff, beyond the ones who are leaving, will be brought back.

[snesfreak]

"Hope they fire Megan Ganz"
Crazy person on Twitter.

[Like the hat?]

fuck fuck fuck

the second episode of the finale didn't record on my DVR--it's just a blank screen. At least it looks like it's on hulu, but I wanted to watch it on my TV, not my laptop.