[RDreamer]

I can understand why they're allowing you to change your skills on the fly, not everyone wants to restart and play through normal every time they want to try a new build. With D2, each of my sorceresses were different - I had a hydra sorceress, a tri-elemental sorceress, a melee sorceress, an ice sorceress. Each one felt different and, putting aside the need to horde skill points at lower levels and the fairly static stat distribution, there was a real sense of commitment to that character. Once you put a point in, that was that. I mean, you really had to think where you put your skills. Do you pump electric bolt in the beginning, do you build or glacial spike or save the points for blizzard? Yeah, it was flawed, but I had a crap load of characters and each one was different; each one had their own memories, success stories, and utter failures.

Yeah, I was the same here. I had a metric ton of different Assassin builds, since that was my favorite class. But I also tried out some really different builds on amazon and stuff, too. And as you said, they feel completely different, and you had a sort of attachment, since you were really building those characters.

I don't feel that in Diablo III. Once you have each of the characters at 60, there's little reason to make another. Want to try a new "build" then just swap out skills. It's catered to the casual, time-constrained gamer. It's also there for the "omg-I-don't-want-to-choose-the-"wrong"-skill-someone-tell-me-what-skills-I-should-raise-for-my-entire-character's-career-lol-this-game-is-so-easy" faq-loving, board posting players that are so terrified of playing something "sub-optimal" or making a "mistake." (Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's your free time. I think you're missing out though.)

What's crazy about this is that there are still people asking what the best build is, etc.

[Fugu]

Agreed. Though I have been inclined to revisit D2 out of curiosity, but many of my issues with the game revolved around potion spams and skill tree planning. I never did play once the Respec option became a thing, but D3 builds a vastly more engaging system than refunding my points every few levels to maintain viable build progressions.

Can you explain this to me? I've never felt this way so I'd be interested to know what makes people consider the skill system archaic. In particular, I'd like to know what your expectations are and how unplanned you think the skill system should be.

I find that Diablo 2 allows you do basically whatever you want to get through normal and, with the exception of some notably broken skills like immolation arrow, allows you to build for almost any of the higher level skills to get through the game on hell. Synergies make building pretty straightforward, and before synergies you had such an enormous pool of skill points anyway that you could do whatever the hell you want so long as you picked skills that weren't bad (a problem, I agree, but a separate one that is independent of the design of skill trees themselves).

[Kyoufu]

The game keeps getting worse.

The Wortham objective to kill 3 dark berserkers...... with Mortar, Vampiric, Frozen and other dumb shit.

Fuck you Blizzard. Fuck. You.

[cpp_is_king]

Well, it's not an MMO. It's drop-in drop-out coop. The issue is that it's always activated. So, in order to play, you need to have a permanent internet connection. What is really bad, it's that the game is running at 200-250 ping for everyone. No matter where you are or how good your connection is.

How do you see your ping?

[Oblivionmancer]

Agreed. Though I have been inclined to revisit D2 out of curiosity, but many of my issues with the game revolved around potion spams and skill tree planning. I never did play once the Respec option became a thing, but D3 builds a vastly more engaging system than refunding my points every few levels to maintain viable build progressions.

The thing that was good about the skill tree system, for all it's downsides, was the genuine and substantial feeling of progress. Putting point after point, little by little into the handful of skills that you committed too, and feeling them get stonger and stronger, and leveling enough to get that next piece, was such a huge part of that game's fun and it's mostly absent here.

I think a great way to add some complexity to the build system would be to bring back the passive synergies between active skills that they implemented in diablo 2. Imagine a Wizard who gets passive bonuses to ice damage or cold duration by choosing to have more cold skills active, for example. You could keep the flexibility of the existing system with more explicit tradeoffs that came with Diablo 2's system. You could run meteor, blizzard, and chain lightning on a single sorceress in diablo 2, but it woud be substantially weaker than focusing on a single tree. That versatility had value though, due to the prevalence of enemy immunities in hell. That kind of decision making could be preserved at least in part in Diablo 3, without the harsh consequences of 'bad' choices.

As it stands though, you can run any set of skills at maximum efficiency with no downsides; there's no need for, or even possibility for real specialization. As a result there's no real diversity, and in the long term, I fear a lot less replayability.

[TheFatOne]

GAF I'm looking for a ring with +damage in the AH, but I don't know what it's called. What option is that under?

[Somnid]

The problem with D2 wasn't that there were skill trees you had to commit to, it's that certain builds weren't viable. I don't see D3 having nearly the life because once you have 5 chars at level 60 you've seen it all. In D2 I never even used certain skills until years later in a new build.

Also I think the brokenness kinda helped make it engaging. There was always more you could see and do. Having never duped or botted and never having played with people who duped and botted I never got to see the ultra rare uniques and I had no real character viable in hell after the difficulty jump patch. I still put 1000 or so hours into it.

Eitherway I don't think D3 5 years from now will play anything like it does now.

[The Hermit]

Wow I played Diablo 2 for like maybe two years. I would never ever grind 10 years on a game like that unless it was an MMO and I had content after content. Seriously man.

I can't believe I am replying to this post but...
Well, why do you think DIII was so hyped? The last patch 1.13 was released last year.

Lets see what happens with this game though

[Havok]

How do you see your ping?

There's a bar just to the left of your mana/spirit/fury/hatred globe. Hover over it.

250-300 ping with crazy lag spikes in a single player game is hilarious.

[Alex]

Wow I played Diablo 2 for like maybe two years. I would never ever grind 10 years on a game like that unless it was an MMO and I had content after content. Seriously man.

I never really played in such huge blocks, just for a few weeks at a time every so often. Even with all of the hours I sunk into that game I can't even begin to participate in these conversations because they're so walled into their little hyper-niche meta-game. What I don't disagree with I simply can't relate to.

That and it's just so much of a nostalgia bomb for some people, especially the ones who did play for ten years and sunk so much of their younger life into it. That's where you get the defense arguments on the terrible build systems (where in retrospect, horrible design and GIGANTIC timesinks just = attachment) and other awkward bullshit that normal human beings can't really fathom. :lol

[Raxus]

I am getting my ass kicked on hell mode but I have to blame it on my gear which is still at level 36 in some slots. It is hard to find improvements on the AH that aren't 100k at the moment.

[DTKT]

How do you see your ping?

Lower right corner if your screen. You should see a green, yellow or red vertical bar depending on your current ping. Just hover your cursor over it and it should tell you the current ping.

What is really strange is that for Blizzard, 250 ping = green. :|

[RDreamer]

The game keeps getting worse. The Wortham objective to kill 3 dark berserkers...... with Mortar, Vampiric, Frozen and other dumb shit. Fuck you Blizzard. Fuck. You.

Yeah, shit like this was the straw that broke the camel's back and made me really think about D3 in comparison to 2. In 2 those elites were fucking hard, and sometimes sure they could be nearly impossible, but they were never the level of stupid that's going on in this game. They're so wildly out of whack with everything around them in hell mode, and partially near the end of nightmare. Nightmare, though was still for the most part ok with how those elites were. Hell is just fucking stupid. It's like they're trolling people.

[Fugu]

I never really played in blocks, just for a few weeks at a time every so often. Even with all of the hours I sunk into that game I can't even begin to participate in these conversations because they're so walled into their little hyper-niche meta-game. What I don't disagree with I simply can't relate to. That and it's just so much of a nostalgia bomb for some people, especially the ones who did play for ten years and sunk so much of their younger life into it. That's where you get the defense arguments on the terrible build systems (where in retrospect, horrible design and GIGANTIC timesinks just = attachment) and other awkward bullshit that normal human beings can't really fathom. :lol

Perhaps the reason you can't get involved in these arguments is because to the people you're directing your post at (a category that includes myself) this reads a bit like a high school jock shouting "NEEEEEEEEERD" from his dad's car. We're all "normal human beings" here.

[Raxus]

The game keeps getting worse. The Wortham objective to kill 3 dark berserkers...... with Mortar, Vampiric, Frozen and other dumb shit. Fuck you Blizzard. Fuck. You.

I love it when they give the elite enemies JUST the right powers to spite your character.

They could at least lighten the health up on elites so they aren't immortal.

[cpp_is_king]

So is there seriously no way to cancel an auction after you place it? That kinda sucks :(

I would have rather had a non-refundable listing fee

[-Pyromaniac-]

The fuck...I just logged back on and the last shit I did didn't even register. Straight up. I went through a whole dungeon and beat the boss at the end, I go back on now and it's asking me to do it again...

[Majine]

So is there seriously no way to cancel an auction after you place it? That kinda sucks :(

There is a limited time after you've created it when it's possible. 30 or 60 mins, can't remember.

[Yaboosh]

There is a limited time after you've created it when it's possible. 30 or 60 mins, can't remember.

5 minutes.

[LordCanti]

Just got to Inferno. Sweet Jesus, that health on enemies. 8500 DPS is not enough. I don't think my DH can do this, no matter what items I equip. We'll see.

There is a limited time after you've created it when it's possible. 30 or 60 mins, can't remember.

Isn't it more like 5?

Edit: Beaten.

[Oblivionmancer]

Eh. I'd rather have a straightforward and gradually enjoyable experience than one that demands padded grinding.

The point is that the progression curve was lengthy and complex enough that you actually had to engage with it; there were twists and turns, and challenges you had to work to overcome.

I'm also getting too old and busy to even consider the prospect of reaching Hell or Inferno in the near future. For the tweens and twenty-somethings poop-socking this game in less than a week, I can understand the disappointment.

That's not nice.

[Dahbomb]

Anyone have a list and the descriptions of the Elite/Champion modifiers in D3?

[fuzzyreactor]

While I can't disagree with the notion that attributes were poorly implemented in Diablo 2, that criticism ignores the many ways in which the character 'building' aspect of Diablo 3 is weaker. It's fair enough to say that the customization is all done through gear, but the problem is that there are simply fewer considerations that go into making gear selection. It's all about pumping damage and vitality, whereas in diablo 2 you were after resists and damage reduction, as well as life leech or getting life tap procs or charges on a wand. You were trying to get crushing blow and +skills, and adding auras and special skills from other classes, and bumping up your mana pool and your regen, and more, and you couldn't get all these things at once. You were making choices with your limited item slots, and the priorities were different across builds and classes. .

see i dont agree with this. my demon hunter was all about vit & dex but as i went on i started having more problems. when i cant one shot things i have a problem as even with a lot of vit my DH is fairly fragile with low str and resistance. Now I have been focusing mostly on hatred and discipline increase + replenishment, critical hit and chance movement speed, dex and a even balance of vit and int. Int seems to be more useful for resistance than just bumping all of it into vit. if i planed on being closer range id pump it into str for physical resistance over int

im in nightmare act 2 with only 800 DPS and im doing better than when i had 1300 dps

[Nekrono]

Anyone playing Act I on Nightmare that wanna team up?

[Hasphat'sAnts]

I'm on the last boss fight.

900 ping. How the fuck am I supposed to dodge his attacks?

[Oblivionmancer]

see i dont agree with this. my demon hunter was all about vit & dex but as i went on i started having more problems. when i cant one shot things i have a problem as even with a lot of vit my DH is fairly fragile with low str and resistance. Now I have been focusing mostly on hatred and discipline increase + replenishment, critical hit and chance movement speed, dex and a even balance of vit and int. Int seems to be more useful for resistance than just bumping all of it into vit. if i planed on being closer range id pump it into str for physical resistance over int im in nightmare act 2 with only 800 DPS and im doing better than when i had 1300 dps

That differs from my experience of nightmare, but I'm glad to hear it. That kind of balancing act is what it takes to make these games genuinely interesting in the longer term.

[BigNastyCurve]

good stuff

Damn good post. Let's just say I beat normal and I'm not sure if I expect to continue to 60. It was fun while it lasted, but I don't see myself playing it much more until the inevitable expansion pack(s).

[RDreamer]

Ok, come on now. Fuck you blizzard. I go back to the game and get hit once again with an arcane enchanted, reflect damage, invulnerable minion mob. This is just silly...

[Red Blaster]

The only complaint that I've been reading over the last couple pages that I agree with is itemization, it's legit turrible and Guerilla needs to fix this shit ASAP.

Couldn't give less of a fuck about "progression" meta-games, D2's skill tree sucked and D3's system is better.

[Dany M]

I've ben playing the game using the starter pack and I decided to buy it after defeating the skeleton king, now the game is starting me over at hte beginning? WTF? In my quest, I can't start after defeating the skeleton king.

[Fugu]

The only complaint that I've been reading over the last couple pages that I agree with is itemization, it's legit turrible and Guerilla needs to fix this shit ASAP. Couldn't give less of a fuck about "progression" meta-games, D2's skill tree sucked and D3's system is better.

Can you explain this to me? I've never felt this way so I'd be interested to know what makes people consider the skill system archaic. In particular, I'd like to know what your expectations are and how unplanned you think the skill system should be. I find that Diablo 2 allows you do basically whatever you want to get through normal and, with the exception of some notably broken skills like immolation arrow, allows you to build for almost any of the higher level skills to get through the game on hell. Synergies make building pretty straightforward, and before synergies you had such an enormous pool of skill points anyway that you could do whatever the hell you want so long as you picked skills that weren't bad (a problem, I agree, but a separate one that is independent of the design of skill trees themselves).

Can someone answer me?

[Corran Horn]

Do you guys click like mad while playing the game? I mean like always clicking repeatedly even if attacking just one foe. Clicking over and over...even to move in the same direction on the same spot.

My roommate thinks Im crazy as he just clicks and holds down the mouse button to repeatedly attack or move around. lol

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Do you guys click like mad while playing the game? I mean like always clicking repeatedly even if attacking just one foe. Clicking over and over...even to move in the same direction on the same spot. My roommate thinks Im crazy as he just clicks and holds down the mouse button to repeatedly attack or move around. lol

I hold to move, click to attack. Feels more satisfying that way.

[Lyphen]

There's a bar just to the left of your mana/spirit/fury/hatred globe. Hover over it. 250-300 ping with crazy lag spikes in a single player game is hilarious.

Guess who had to cut his hardcore run short earlier today because of 900ms jumps every few minutes.

Me.

Honestly, anyone who clears Hardcore is a god damn lucky hero, considering how horrible the lag is.

[Ferrio]

Wow hell is so insane. Some of the rolls you get on elites is fucked up. Lot of fun though, definitely a lot more involved than D2 ever was.

[cpp_is_king]

Is follower damage bugged? In the stat screen you can hover over your follower's primary stat and it mentions that it acts as a multiplier for base damage. For example my templar has 624 strength and it says this gives a 624% multiplier to his damage.

He's using a 44-81 damage weapon, yet the number it's computed in the "damage" field of the stats screen says that his damage is a mere 92.6 or something like that. Moreover, this 92.6 number actually seems pretty accurate, considering how atrocious his damage is when you stand there watching him hack away at something and making no progress at all.


So, it seems to me that either their damage is bugged and they should be doing substantially more damage than they currently are, or the tooltip is bugged and it is computing an incorrect primary stat multiplier.

Has anyone noticed this and have an explanation?

[Murry33]

So, I'm pretty god dam new to diablo in general and at the moment I have no idea what to do with my fallen teeth. Are they for selling or are they used in forging items later on once your blacksmith is trained up?

[Raxus]

Ok, come on now. Fuck you blizzard. I go back to the game and get hit once again with an arcane enchanted, reflect damage, invulnerable minion mob. This is just silly...

I really hope they get rid of this power. It is just plain silly and a waste of time.

[Brandon F]

Can you explain this to me? I've never felt this way so I'd be interested to know what makes people consider the skill system archaic. In particular, I'd like to know what your expectations are and how unplanned you think the skill system should be.

It's been ages, but my last playthrough with a Sorc(again pre-1.10 and respec and whatever other fixes), had me saving up massive pools of skill points to get late-tree abilities. After blowing dozens of points on early 'obvious' skills, I noted a severe spike in the later difficulties. With wasted points on lowbie skills made my appropriate level skills suffer as they were low-rent and could not viably compete(and besides I was no longer even using that cone of frost or whatever that served me great in the early hours! It was ineffective against the harsh mobs of later acts/difficulties!) :Don't quote me on exact abilities, it's been awhile:

At the time I restarted my sorc and noticed a common theme in various build recommendations online. Save all points up to level 30, then dump them in this way...etc. Doing so, I noticed a vast improvement, but was also disgusted with the climb to 30 to reach that potential. I'm sure the game has been fixed in the last 6 years or so since that time, which is part of my interest to revisit and truly test if I can just have some fun with the skill trees without looking at a faq.

Essentially though, my recent play through of Torchlight 1 confirmed how much I dislike the choice of infusing my character with a wide swath of low-rent skills vs. a meager sampling of beneficial skills pumped to the max(mostly passives too). Many will disagree, but I loathed my time in Torchlight for this reason(that, and the game balance was all sorts of terrible).

[Lasthope106]

So let me get this straight. The real game doesn't start until the higher difficulties correct? I haven't even cleared the Act I on normal FML :(

[Achtius]

Wow hell is so insane. Some of the rolls you get on elites is fucked up. Lot of fun though, definitely a lot more involved than D2 ever was.

BUTCHER WAS FUN TO KILL THO XD

[Zerokku]

This just dropped for me in Nightmare. Seems like a pretty decent rare.

How much do you think I could get for it?

[frequency]

I'm sure this has been talked about a lot in this thread already but...
I want to say that this always online thing is really annoying. I'm playing single player, but am lagging. I basically can't play tonight because of this. :(

[DopeyFish]

I think when I get to hell...I'm going to stack the shit out of vitality

Try to get +150 vitality armor pieces (with sockets so i can throw the best amethysts) with high armor stats and having armor stats increase by 100% of life (barbarian)

Become a ridiculous damage sponge

[Bisnic]

The difficulty spike between normal and nightmare is pretty big, died a couple of times on Act I already. My DH friend got the worst of it though. :lol I'm scared to see the next Acts.

[Alex]

The point is that the progression curve was lengthy and complex enough that you actually had to engage with it; there were twists and turns, and challenges you had to work to overcome. That's not nice.

It was lengthy and complex because it was a timesink that if you fucked it up or had a change of heart it'd cost you lots of hours of your life, that caused it to have a lot of weight. Having a video game take ten times as long to do the same things isn't really a boon for a lot of folks though.

For most people it was just a dark ages mechanic that needed to go, even for those of us who loved Diablo II originally because we grew up and can't afford to pour those sorts of hours into it anymore. (Not was it ever a good mechanic even for those whom had the time, really)

Again, these early ORPGs and MMORPGs had this really potent mix of heavy risk timesink + nostalgia that really resonates strong with certain types and while most simply grow out of it, some don't and still want something to take on as a sole hobby and pour ten years into. I just don't think the people championing the Diablo II style of things are going to see eye to eye with those who aren't, so it's probably just not a good debate to begin with.

[smr00]

I'm sure this has been talked about a lot in this thread already but... I want to say that this always online thing is really annoying. I'm playing single player, but am lagging. I basically can't play tonight because of this. :(

Surprisingly no real lag tonight for me.

I can see the frustration but we all know what we were getting into when we bought it and yeah it's been talked to death but it still sucks to hear that people can't enjoy the game :( hopefully they will get everything cleared up by next week.

The difficulty spike between normal and nightmare is pretty big, died a couple of times on Act I already. My DH friend got the worst of it though. :lol I'm scared to see the next Acts.

Really? i had 0 problems with nightmare on my Demon Hunter and i am completely destroying nightmare on my wizard (solo) felt like easy mode on my hunter and feels like very easy on my wizard.

Hell mode is just now giving me a challenge, especially with 4 people.

[KuroNeeko]

So let me get this straight. The real game doesn't start until the higher difficulties correct? I haven't even cleared the Act I on normal FML :(

You're fine. The real game starts when you step foot into New Tristram.

[Shouta]

How do you guys survive in hell with so little vit? My is like 800 (23k life)and still get rape XD I got simliar armor too (DH)

At least in Act II, a combination of insane health-restoration, Invincibility, and running the fuck away, lol. Monk can restore a TON of HP for itself, as a Bubble and Dodges well so even with lower HP, I can stand there and fight for a little bit. I'm on Act II on Hell and I can go maybe 50/50 against Blue/Yellow Mobs depending on the situation. If it's one on one, I win, but the trio or smaller mobs tend to complicate things because I have a harder time moving away from Flame/Poison Pools. Invulnerable is my bane currently but everythign else, I can kinda do.

I have 5.5k DPS right now after Breath of Heaven buff but I definitely need more and to start working on adding INT/STR into my gear so the mobs don't destroy me as hard.

Anyway, my biggest issue with gear currently is the lack of class stats not being prevalent enough and thus making different builds more apparent. Hopefully Blizz intends on rectifying that later.

[cpp_is_king]

This just dropped for me in Nightmare. Seems like a pretty decent rare. How much do you think I could get for it?

Honestly not that much. It's good, no doubt, but it's easy to find similarly good pieces of equipment for less than 10k buyout. That being said, the combination of all the stat slots are pretty decent, but I wouldn't expect to get more than 20k for it.