[Beautifully Shaped Monsters]

I can understand why you would someone not want to upgrade if s/he already has Win7. But why would anyone downgrade from Win8 to Win7? For start menu alone? Because if you ignore start screen (and some inconsistencies in UI), Win8 is a much better system than 7.

Businesses are currently upgrading en masse from XP to Windows 7. Few will bother to do that again for a loooooong time, especially to something that will potentially require a longer period of transition (because of the bigger shift UI).

[brotkasten]

I wonder when the guys at Google are going to upgrade to Windows 8.

In other news:

During a call with analysts, CEO Michael Dell gave some insight into his firm's future, including its plans for Windows 8. The exec said he doesn't expect businesses to transition to Windows 8 early on, since many corporations are still adopting Windows 7, though he did say that once Microsoft's new OS is available, his company will have a "full complement" of products ready for market, including new tablets. Dell went on to say that unlike other Windows transitions, the shift to Windows 8 will likely require many users to purchase new products, "whether it's a tablet or an Ultrabook with touch or a notebook with touch or a PC with touch or some derivative hybrid of all of the above type of products." What this means for the company's bottom line remains uncertain, though the CEO acknowledged that "we think that the touchscreen products will certainly cost more." Dell went on to say that it remains uncertain whether consumers will overwhelmingly prefer tablets to PCs.

[kruis]

I can understand why you would someone not want to upgrade if s/he already has Win7. But why would anyone downgrade from Win8 to Win7? For start menu alone? Because if you ignore start screen (and some inconsistencies in UI), Win8 is a much better system than 7.

Businesses prefer to have standardized environments that can easily managed and have a low TCO. Switching to another OS on thousands of PCs is a huge costly effort. It's not just creating a new image, it also means checking if the old hardware and software is compatible, repackaging software, making new policies, updating printers, the list goes on and on. Since Windows 8 is optimized for tablet use, there really is no use for most businesses to make the effort when the vast majority of users work on desktops/laptops with regular Windows desktop apps.

[venne]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...dc14e22cc6.5f1 that is quite the prediction

500 million in a little over a year is insane. It took Windows 7 two years to sell 450 million.

I seriously doubt they can offer that sort of accelerated sales growth following their current model. They must have something up their sleeve to think they can reach that number. Is the upcoming hardware just that compelling? Will there be cut rate upgrade costs? Will their phone platform come to be Windows NT? What about the next Xbox?

[maeh2k]

500 million in a little over a year is insane. It took Windows 7 two years to sell 450 million.

The article says "up to 500 million users". I doubt they expect 500 million sales. 'up to' makes it more of an upper bound. Besides, 'users' doesn't mean sales. You can have multiple people using one pc.

[EVIL]

The article says "up to 500 million users". I doubt they expect 500 million sales. 'up to' makes it more of an upper bound. Besides, 'users' doesn't mean sales. You can have multiple people using one pc.

They are talking about users in the way that people with a windows phone, using win 8 on there counts as a user, a new xbox with win 8 on there, is also a user. Not only pc's and win7 phones, but a large range of devices.

[venne]

The article says "up to 500 million users". I doubt they expect 500 million sales. 'up to' makes it more of an upper bound. Besides, 'users' doesn't mean sales. You can have multiple people using one pc.

. . . and a single user can own multiple computers.

That's an extraordinarily high upper bound to throw out. There must be something behind his optimism.

[brotkasten]

. . . and a single user can own multiple computers. That's an extraordinarily high upper bound to throw out. There must be something behind his optimism.

Knowing Microsoft's corporate culture, it's most likely alcohol.

[glaurung]

500 000 000 is not an impossible number, but it is a number for life time sales. By that time, they will churn out 1.5 service packs, both fixing issues and creating new ones.

By 2014 Windows 8 will be more or less mature.

I suspect the first half of 2015 will already see Microsoft hitting the users with a new box. Either Win 8.5 or Windows X - whatever they will call their semi-cloud-based OS.

[JaggedSac]

No, this discussion is for future hardware. Clark says the boot sequence will remain the same for pre-Win8, non UEFI hardware.

Can you even install another OS on hardware with UEFI?

[claviertekky]

Can you even install another OS on hardware with UEFI?

Yes as Macs have shown with bootcamp.

The Linux distros have also been prepping for the UEFI transition since Windows 7.

[MrBig]

Can you even install another OS on hardware with UEFI?

UEFI is the successor of BIOS, you can do anything with it that you can do within BIOS. It's W8 ARM systems that are mandated to lock the bootloader.

[radioheadrule83]

Just to chime in on the discussion that was had earlier about holding down a button for boot menu...

I'm assuming the user questioning why it couldn't be done was thinking along the lines of what you do with a Mac. The reason is that Macs are standardised hardware with standardised bootloaders. They are designed with that function in mind.

In terms of pre UEFI hardware -- PCs are far more variable - different motherboards, different on board components, different peripherals (albeit standardised ones in the case of keyboards). Every x86 motherboard comes with its own ROM / BIOS, typically an American Megatrends (AMI), Insyde Software, Phoenix Technologies or Byosoft BIOS -- these are designed for flexible hardware and usually follow their own specific and rigid POST routine. It isn't until that routine has reached the stage where it passes control on to the operating system that the operating system itself is free to listen to input, and what Microsoft are essentially saying is that hardware today is so fast, and their Win 8 boot sequence so quick, that button presses in a hardware-variable environment are hard to detect (reliably) in time. Hence their fix. With ARM based products, each manufacturer is probably going to strap in their own bootloader microcode (UEFI / EFI compliant) -- concievably, it should be possible for them (the individual manufacturers and not Microsoft) to do what you're asking, and look for a button press as a hardware switch to invoke the boot / partition menu. I don't believe Microsoft were simply BS'ing or trying to make excuses for themselves... I'm sure if they could roll out a solution that would work on all systems, they would do it.

That's how I've read it / understand it. Correct me if I'm wrong! It wouldn't surprise me if I am! :P

[Complex Shadow]

UEFI is the successor of BIOS, you can do anything with it that you can do within BIOS. It's W8 ARM systems that are mandated to lock the bootloader.

i am hoping that will get hacked and we can install other OS's like linux.

[MrBig]

i am hoping that will get hacked and we can install other OS's like linux.

Yeah, it'd make a nice platform for people to mod low power linux tablets with custom touch UIs. Of course I really don't see W8 ARM taking hold of any marketshare unless MS really pushes marketing on that, and even then it wont have a mature app ecosystem for at least a year.

x86 Windows tablets would let you use W8, any of the various linux flavors, and x86 Android, all right out of the box.

[StudioTan]

Businesses prefer to have standardized environments that can easily managed and have a low TCO. Switching to another OS on thousands of PCs is a huge costly effort. It's not just creating a new image, it also means checking if the old hardware and software is compatible, repackaging software, making new policies, updating printers, the list goes on and on. Since Windows 8 is optimized for tablet use, there really is no use for most businesses to make the effort when the vast majority of users work on desktops/laptops with regular Windows desktop apps.

Except that it isn't. Other than the Start menu the desktop environment works exactly the same as Windows 7, only better. For example the new Task Manager and file copy functionality alone are worth the upgrade as far as I'm concerned.

[CurlySaysX]

The Xbox 360 did reach 1billion households. 500,000,000 doesn't seem too ridiculous.

[Copernicus]

The Xbox 360 did reach 1billion households. 500,000,000 doesn't seem too ridiculous.

Yeah, over it's entire life, Ballmer is talking about it's first year.

[Windu]

The Xbox 360 did reach 1billion households. 500,000,000 doesn't seem too ridiculous.

Xbox?

[Complex Shadow]

Xbox?

It's box that makes a light show with red LEDs.

Yeah, it'd make a nice platform for people to mod low power linux tablets with custom touch UIs. Of course I really don't see W8 ARM taking hold of any marketshare unless MS really pushes marketing on that, and even then it wont have a mature app ecosystem for at least a year. x86 Windows tablets would let you use W8, any of the various linux flavors, and x86 Android, all right out of the box.

no amount of marketing will make that tablet fly off the shelfs. Not as long as there are hybrides that do the exact same thing but better.

[Road]

500 million in a little over a year is insane. It took Windows 7 two years to sell 450 million. I seriously doubt they can offer that sort of accelerated sales growth following their current model. They must have something up their sleeve to think they can reach that number. Is the upcoming hardware just that compelling? Will there be cut rate upgrade costs? Will their phone platform come to be Windows NT? What about the next Xbox?

They expect their tablets to be successful. They're not counting only on laptops or desktops. 8 has the potential to sell faster.

[Windu]

so apparently the metro IE in the final build may have flash support. According to the guy that runs WinUnleaked.tk Adobe shared the source code with Microsoft. Adobe Flash is in the control panel in the RP.

Adobe Flash player is included in the Release Preview, Adobe shared the "source code" with Microsoft. Apparently from some sources, Internet Explorer Immersive will coming with flash too, wait and see. Here a shot of the control panel post-install, build is 100% stock: A good beginning... let's see if Microsoft going to include it to IE Immersive for the RTM. Edit: Here the result when I try to install Adobe Flash: This worked on pre-RC build. Also, here a view from the advaced tab of the pre-installed Adobe Flash from 8400: http://winunleaked.tk/showthread.php...ull=1#post2636

Source code is shared, now we need to wait from Microsoft to add this to IE Immersive, this coming soon apparently. I don't see flash on IE Immersive (Build 8400), but sources told me that month ago, maybe for RTM? let's see. PS: It's a good beginning, Install RC, go to control panel, and you can see Adobe Flash installed, so... the rest coming soon. Updated my post. http://winunleaked.tk/showthread.php...ull=1#post2641

Really, I don't know, one of my sources said it month ago, and I can start to see Adobe is built-in the RC, so, maybe this was real and IE Immersive will be included too, maybe for RTM. I try to get more info about it asap. http://winunleaked.tk/showthread.php...ull=1#post2644

[DopeyFish]

The Xbox 360 did reach 1billion households. 500,000,000 doesn't seem too ridiculous.

Wasn't that strictly market availability?

[brotkasten]

so apparently the metro IE in the final build may have flash support. According to the guy that runs WinUnleaked.tk Adobe shared the source code with Microsoft. Adobe Flash is in the control panel in the RP.

Hard to believe, after Microsoft dropped Silverlight and keeps pushing hard for HTML5. But I guess there's nothing money can't fix.

[jagowar]

so apparently the metro IE in the final build may have flash support. According to the guy that runs WinUnleaked.tk Adobe shared the source code with Microsoft. Adobe Flash is in the control panel in the RP.

This would fit in with the idea of win8 retaining the legacy while trying to move forward.... try as they might html5 has not yet completely taken over and will be at least 5 yrs before it does. Flash is still very popular so you really do need both (unlike silverlight flash is actually in widespread use). The issue with flash will continue to be security but I think that is the reason if this rumor is correct that its baked in directly in windows is so ms can reduce the intrusion points as much as possible.... the question I would have is how updates would happen.... would they really be bundled in with windows updates or still happen through adobe?

[MrBig]

I hope that isn't true, I'd rather see the web move on to HTML5's open standards as that gets more developed than retain flash.

[giga]

It's most likely not true. They're just bundling Flash into the control panel because Windows RT won't be able to install third party desktop apps. Flash will work in desktop IE but not in Metro.

It's the same interface on the Mac preference pane. (which used to bundle Flash as well, until Apple realized it was a bad idea when they shipped 10.6 with a version of Flash that had a security exploit)

[Windu]

It's most likely not true. They're just bundling Flash into the control panel because Windows RT won't be able to install third party desktop apps. Flash will work in desktop IE but not in Metro. It's the same interface on the Mac preference pane. (which used to bundle Flash as well, until Apple realized it was a bad idea when they shipped 10.6 with a version of Flash that had a security exploit)

yeah that could be it. Although it does show no plugins etc.. installed. The consumer preview flash shows a plugin installed for me.




Of course it being stock probably doesn't need a plugin or whatever.

[Windu]

well, here we go. confirmed.

http://www.winsupersite.com/article/...e-flash-143180

[Copernicus]

well, here we go. confirmed. http://www.winsupersite.com/article/...e-flash-143180

That about wraps it up for the ipad.

[Anton Sugar]

Oh shit son.

[giga]

Shitty news. Guess they couldn't do anything about websites serving HTML5 video only to iOS devices…even when Flash for mobile has been discontinued.

Running Metro style IE plug-in free improves battery life as well as security, reliability, and privacy for consumers. Plug-ins were important early on in the web’s history. But the web has come a long way since then with HTML5. Providing compatibility with legacy plug-in technologies would detract from, rather than improve, the consumer experience of browsing in the Metro style UI.

So much for that.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2...edirected=true

[JonnyBrad]

Very weird. I've just spent ages changing a ton of flash sites over to streaming webm/mp4. Its a bit of a pain in the ass having to make 2 of everything when before it was just an FLV.

[brotkasten]

What a terrible day for the internet.

[jagowar]

Bolting it in directly to IE is probably the best thing to happen to flash ever.... funny thing is this gives flash a whole new lease on life and will push the html5 transition back years (but it was already going to take years on its own).

To me this is how flash should have always been done.... the plugin method was always a poor way to do it because of all the security/performance issues.

[D4Danger]

Shitty news. Guess they couldn't do anything about websites serving HTML5 video only to iOS devices…even when Flash for mobile has been discontinued. So much for that. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2...edirected=true

PR Spin: It's not a plug-in if it's part of the browser.

What a terrible day for the internet.

yep

[bigtroyjon]

well, here we go. confirmed. http://www.winsupersite.com/article/...e-flash-143180

How does another site reposting the same rumor confirm anything?

[brotkasten]

PR Spin: It's not a plug-in if it's part of the browser.

I got another one:

@robertmclaws: Think about this: The Flash source running thru the Windows automated test lab is the best security improvement to ever happen to the Web.

[Windu]

How does another site reposting the same rumor confirm anything?

well he has inside info like the other source, images and has been using a up to date build.

[bigtroyjon]

well he has inside info like the other source, images and has been using a up to date build.

This info is coming straight from the other site, it says so right in the article.

This news comes courtesy of a forum post on WinUnleaked.tk

[Windu]

This info is coming straight from the other site, it says so right in the article.

Those 2 images are not from winunleak, those are his images. He is a credible source anyway. 2 sources with inside knowledge saying the same thing i think pretty much confirms it.

[StudioTan]

well, here we go. confirmed. http://www.winsupersite.com/article/...e-flash-143180

That's good news as far as I'm concerned. I prefer using the metro IE on my tablet and I would love Flash support on it.

[brotkasten]

Would it be too hyperbolic to call this "the day HTML5 died"?

[Slavik81]

Would it be too hyperbolic to call this "the day HTML5 died"?

Yes. HTML5 is all anyone talks about in webdev these days. It's not just going to die because Metro supports flash.

[giga]

Would it be too hyperbolic to call this "the day HTML5 died"?

HTML5 video was never alive on the desktop--which is infuriating. We'll see about mobile. iOS is still leading in terms of browser share and Android will have to drop Flash sooner or later since Adobe gave up on it.

[jagowar]

HTML5 video was never alive on the desktop--which is infuriating. We'll see about mobile. iOS is still leading in terms of browser share and Android will have to drop Flash sooner or later since Adobe gave up on it.

I almost think this may be a sign of a flash rebirth.... if they are going to be willing to give source code access to people (because of the increased competition) others can natively integrate it you could see the others follow suit because as much as people talk about html5 flash is still much more widespread and even ios struggles on many sites still.

[LukasTaves]

well, here we go. confirmed. http://www.winsupersite.com/article/...e-flash-143180

Holy shit. Didn't see that coming o.O

[Cheebo]

Would it be too hyperbolic to call this "the day HTML5 died"?

You are forgetting about a little is called iOS which dominates the tablet market that heavily uses and relies on HTML5.

Not to mention Adobe will no longer support flash for mobile regardless what windows 8 does.

Adobe killed mobile flash and Apple doesn't support it. Microsoft doesn't have the sway Apple does in mobile, they don't have the ability to bring it back because they support it. Especially with Adobe siding with Apple on flash for Mobile.

[Copernicus]

You are forgetting about a little is called iOS which dominates the tablet market that heavily uses and relies on HTML5. Not to mention Adobe will no longer support flash for mobile regardless what windows 8 does. Adobe killed mobile flash and Apple doesn't support it. Microsoft doesn't have the sway Apple does in mobile, they don't have the ability to bring it back because they support it. Especially with Adobe siding with Apple on flash for Mobile.

iOS accounts for about 15% of internet traffic.

In a world where people are finally not letting devices mandate their usage patterns, it doesn't matter much.

[Cheebo]

iOS accounts for about 15% of internet traffic. In a world where people are finally not letting devices mandate their usage patterns, it doesn't matter much.

It matters that adobe sided with apple and killed mobile flash. Html5 won the mobile war.