[jaxword]

What are you talking about? The organizational structure of the church would exist, regardless if the pews were full or empty. The power of the church isn't sourced from its followers, but by two millennia of wealth and influence. If anything, it's a top-down structure. I can go more into this -- I once did a paper on monastic organization of Buddhists -- but you'd have to be pretty deluded to think power is derived from its followers.

What are you even debating? That political organizations don't need members? If the Catholic religion had not gained followers and thus wealth and political influence over millenia, it would never have the power it still has in this century. There's a reason why some lunatic can't just say "I'm the pope of this new religion!" and suddenly is given his own palace complete with tax breaks and millions of dollars.

If there were no members of ANY organization, it would have no wealth and influence. If we must be pedantic, in this case it would have no GAIN in power or influence, since the pre-existing accumulations would still prop it up until they depleted.

This really isn't as complex as you're trying to make it out to be. No members = no power.

[The Lamonster]

The woman should say 'good fucking riddance.'

[BruceLeeRoy]

What are you talking about? The organizational structure of the church would exist, regardless if the pews were full or empty. The power of the church isn't sourced from its followers, but by two millennia of wealth and influence. If anything, it's a top-down structure. I can go more into this -- I once did a paper on monastic organization of Buddhists -- but you'd have to be pretty deluded to think power is derived from its followers.

What are you talking about? How can you possibly come to the conclusion that the catholic church won't lose power as its followers continue to drop? How?

Nevermind jax wrote that much better than me.

[-Eddman-]

Welcome to the wonderful world of catholicism in Latin America!

People in other countries are always debating about the biggest factor for the overall deep social problems in the region. Drugs, druglords, violence, blah, blah, blah. Sorry, it's fucking religion and its influence within society and politicians. Fuck Catholicism.

[Tideas]

Welcome to the wonderful world of catholicism in Latin America! People in other countries are always debating about the biggest factor for the overall deep social problems in the region. Drugs, druglords, violence, blah, blah, blah. Sorry, it's fucking religion and its influence within society and politicians. Fuck Catholicism.

really? let me guest. You're atheist?

[jaxword]

What are you talking about? How can you possibly come to the conclusion that the catholic church won't lose power as its followers continue to drop? How? Nevermind jax wrote that much better than me.

Nah, you wrote equally if not better. I just am more verbose sometimes.

It's delusional to think that any political organization's power DOESN'T come from the followers. Where did it come from, then? Why does it remain relevant? Why would anyone bother joining if there were no one else involved, anyways?

To act as if that population size doesn't matter shows INCREDIBLE ignorance about politics and history.

[BruceLeeRoy]

I want a Catholic to explain to me how they overlook the Popes support and actions that were integral to the rise of Adolf Hitler and Nazism.

In my mind that simple math looks like this:

Church:
+Responsible for more bloodshed in human history
+Actively spouts doctrine not in-line with the bible and admits to such
+SUPPORTS ADOLF HITLER

=A organization clearly not supported by any god I know of.

[Davidion]

I was a little bit more pointed than necessary towards zmoney earlier, and yet this pedantic talk about Benedict going to hell is a simple example of how exercising morals and ethics from the standpoint of a institutionalized power structure is often a one-way ticket to fail-ville.

The human tendency of raising our young to follow morals instead of understanding why they're necessary is something that we ought to evolve out of.

[Schattenjäger]

It's a good thing no one is forced to be a Catholic -
That vile organization !

[Lindbergh]

I want a Catholic to explain to me how they overlook the Popes support and actions that were integral to the rise of Adolf Hitler and Nazism. In my mind that simple math looks like this: Church: +Responsible for more bloodshed in human history +Actively spouts doctrine not in-line with the bible and admits to such +SUPPORTS ADOLF HITLER =A organization clearly not supported by any god I know of.

I really can't say anything on the relationship between the Vatican & Hitler, that topic warrants brushing through various documents. I just checked here for quick conclusions:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...tism/pius.html

As for doctrine & biblical basis, I think it depends upon which biblical canon we're referring.
Certain books in the Catholic canon not present in Protestant ones provide basis for certain practices. If the Church admits it's not in line with scripture, they probably should have gutted certain books out (they had more than a thousand years to do so).

As for the bloodshed, I wouldn't doubt that it's high. We're looking at an institution that has played politics for about two millennia where church heads for the most part seemed more focused on administering land & power than writing encyclicals on human rights.

[lazybones18]

lol religion

This can't be said enough

[leadbelly]

So you're okay with having a NINE YEAR OLD girl giving birth, and most likely killing her in the process?

Always the same. I wasn't arguing that at all. It's just that you can see their line of thinking. It is a stance that the killing of an unborn child is unethical and akin to murder. It is a problem of strictly following that teaching in a very black and white way. Inevitably they are going to come across grey areas, issues that have no clear answer.

The teaching isn't necessarily a bad one, there is some justification for it from a purely ethical standpoint. The problem is there are far too many grey areas for you to strictly adhere to those principles.

[BruceLeeRoy]

I really can't say anything on the relationship between the Vatican & Hitler, that topic warrants brushing through various documents. I just checked here for quick conclusions: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...tism/pius.html As for doctrine & biblical basis, I think it depends upon which biblical canon we're referring. Certain books in the Catholic canon not present in Protestant ones provide basis for certain practices. If the Church admits it's not in line with scripture, they probably should have gutted certain books out (they had more than a thousand years to do so). As for the bloodshed, I wouldn't doubt that it's high. We're looking at an institution that has played politics for about two millennia where church heads for the most part seemed more focused on administering land & power than writing encyclicals on human rights.

Nice write-up. Clearly then if I had to guess which "team" Catholicism was a part of its not the one with the god of love.

[Ultima_5]

Who the fuck wants to be a part of such a vile organization in the first place?

The sad thing is, most of the catholics that I know are some of the nicest and most accepting Christians. It's a shame their church is so fucking evil.

[Hasphat'sAnts]

I hope God is seeing this.

[Tideas]

The sad thing is, most of the catholics that I know are some of the nicest and most accepting Christians. It's a shame their church is so fucking evil.

lol. evil.

[BruceLeeRoy]

The sad thing is, most of the catholics that I know are some of the nicest and most accepting Christians. It's a shame their church is so fucking evil.

Yeah and that's the caveat and utter frustration for me. My grandma is catholic. Nicest lady on the planet but being catholic isn't a religion for her its a identity almost a nationality. She has been catholic for so long that to turn her back on the church is turning her back on her whole life which is sad because no matter how vile they continue to be they have her completely entrenched.

[AdrianWerner]

I'm not all that pro-abortion, but this is retarded. Using this logic they should excommunicate everyone who ever took life, even if in self-defense. Because abortion when pregnancy endangers mother's life and health is exactly that: self defense.

[Tideas]

Yeah and that's the caveat and utter frustration for me. My grandma is catholic. Nicest lady on the planet but being catholic isn't a religion for her its a identity almost a nationality. She has been catholic for so long that to turn her back on the church is turning her back on her whole life which is sad because no matter how vile they continue to be they have her completely entrenched.

because let's take the actions of a few leaders to represent the many right?

[Jackpot]

really? let me guest. You're atheist?

At least he isn't allowing any perceived bias to make him say the mother should beg forgiveness from God for saving her daughter's life like you.

[AdrianWerner]

The sad thing is, most of the catholics that I know are some of the nicest and most accepting Christians. It's a shame their church is so fucking evil.

Catholic churches are different in each country though. In Europe this kind of nonsense would never pass.

[Tideas]

At least he isn't allowing any perceived bias to make him say the mother should beg forgiveness from God for saving her daughter's life like you.

how bout another example. If I'm a devout Christian (not even Catholic here. Just Christian).

If I shoot and killed a man in order to save my son, I shouldn't ask for forgiveness for taking the man's life?

[Kinyou]

lol. evil.

Apparently has the church never recognized any wrong doing during in the crusades....

[Raist]

I will say one thing actually. It seems people are ignoring the fact that it is an obvious grey area. It is basically a view that the killing of an unborn child is unethical. While I agree that women should have the right to choose, I also understand why someone may find such a thing unethical. I understand it because in some ways I feel that myself. The problem is, there are too many grey areas for you to strictly adhere to those principles in the real world. That basically is where the problem lies.

See, this is why the concept of absolute, objective morality doesn't make any fucking sense.

[-Eddman-]

really? let me guest. You're atheist?

I'm mexican... and atheist. Let me guess, you have never been in Latin America?

It's not like I'm talking out of my ass. Bishops around these parts are absurdly rich motherfuckers who preach about being humble and stuff, while asking for money from the community. A big part of the country can't even afford food everyday and the fucking pope lives in his castle wearing his gold clothes and walking with his gold rod. Awesome.

Catholicism promotes ignorance. I don't give a shit about people's individual concepts of god and faith, everyone should be allowed to believe whatever nonsense, as long as its not used as a tool to promote institutionalized classism, racism and prejudice against sex and life.

Sorry, my beef is not against god or religion, it's against the Catholic church. Fuck that bullshit.

[CornBurrito]

I thought all sins were equal.

[Dude Abides]

how bout another example. If I'm a devout Christian (not even Catholic here. Just Christian). If I shoot and killed a man in order to save my son, I shouldn't ask for forgiveness for taking the man's life?

Why would you ask forgiveness for something that isn't wrong? Force of habit?

[BruceLeeRoy]

because let's take the actions of a few leaders to represent the many right?

Tideas they aren't the few man....They systemically cover over unbelievable wrong-doing within their ranks and have for years. Things are only going to get worse for them as more information comes out.

Also how does this double standard work. In times of war the pope blesses the troops of the nation to fight against other baptized catholics. Regardless of political involvement that is murder and I am not even talking about the extreme blood-shed throughout history. For some reason that kind of blatant killing is okay yet a mother that has her life on the line because she was raped is now a moral boundary the church can't allow to be crossed.

Come on man. Get out of this place you deserve better from a organization that would have your allegiance.

how bout another example. If I'm a devout Christian (not even Catholic here. Just Christian). If I shoot and killed a man in order to save my son, I shouldn't ask for forgiveness for taking the man's life?

What biblical reasoning are you basing this on?

[wenis]

Leaving the Catholic Church was one of the best decisions I made as a teenager... These stories are getting to frequent and far more disturbing than the last. I couldn't be apart of an organization like this...

The poor child and mother.

[Yagharek]

Its too late to abort the archbishop, sadly.

[Evlar]

The canon law prescribing automatic excommunication for abortion is idiotic. That should be self-evident, but this case provides a useful illustration why it's a terrible idea in case someone couldn't connect the dots on their own.

[Future]

Pretty positive judgements like this would be a lot different if women had more power within the church. I know people will blame the religious doctrine, but really it's the male dominated leadership that should be under fire.

[Yagharek]

Pretty positive judgements like this would be a lot different if women had more power within the church. I know people will blame the religious doctrine, but really it's the male dominated leadership that should be under fire.

The male heirarchy follows as a consequence of the doctrine. Its rotten to the core.

[Jackpot]

because let's take the actions of a few leaders to represent the many right?

well, you've already said the victim was at fault and defended the church's decision. So sounds like those few leaders really do have an influence on their followers.

[Speedymanic]

Speechless. Just terrible stuff.

I also find it very surprising that a 9yo was able to get pregnant. Wouldn't have thought her body would have developed to that point at such a young age.

[Anbokr]

The woman should say 'good fucking riddance.'

this. I think the bishop did her a favor. Your child > old conservative men in funky hats.

[DarthWoo]

Pretty positive judgements like this would be a lot different if women had more power within the church. I know people will blame the religious doctrine, but really it's the male dominated leadership that should be under fire.

The Vatican has launched a probe recently into American nuns, claiming that they are radical feminists or some other nonsense. Hopefully this mother can eventually see, like so many others, that she is much better off without that joke of an institution.

[skinnyrattler]

these guys......hookers & tax men.....heaven

[Angelus Errare]

I don't see any Christians or Catholic physically stoning gay people. Or saying men and women can't be in the same car together. So...please don't generalize.

Well that's because stoning is illegal in America thanks to our Government. Now if stoning was legal, I'm willing to bet many would stone gays. But if there is one thing Christians and Catholics are afraid of more than Spaghetti Man, it's prison.

[Count Dookkake]

lol religion

x100000000

[Pollux]

The Vatican has launched a probe recently into American nuns, claiming that they are radical feminists or some other nonsense. Hopefully this mother can eventually see, like so many others, that she is much better off without that joke of an institution.

That's a legitimate probe.

[Deified Data]

Good news. Being excommunicated from that bizarre cult is the best thing that could ever happen to them.

[SMT]

Pretty sure the mafia runs part of the Vatican, if I'm not mistaken.

[Aizu_Itsuko]

That basically is where the problem lies.

The Catholic Church, like most religious organizations, deals in absolutes. It gives people easy to follow black and white moral guidelines so that they don't have to deal with the complexities of life. It's basically a escapegoat for people who don't want to deal with fear, uncertainty and doubt.

The problem is those binary moral guidelines don't take into account the reality of life, they simplify a complex situation, taking one single element of it and declaring the whole thing morally right or wrong, ignoring any of the details, including if it's actually morally right or beneficial to do such a thing.

And at that point is when you end up having a bunch of people all over the world doing morally backwards irrational things because some guy said so instead of using their own brains to decide what should be done in each given situation.

So let's look again at this situation again.

What we have here is:

- A nine year old child raped repeatedly by her stepfather since she was six resulting in pregnancy that would have probably killed her.

- A mother that tries to save her poor daughter's life.

- A doctor who tries to save the life of a young child that has already suffered too much.

- An all powerful global organization self-declared moral authority labelling the scarred for life kid, the loving mother and the worried doctor as killers while thinking the rapist stepfather is a-ok.


Use your own brain instead of just following some book and ask yourself who is being amoral in this story.

Do any of you think it's ok to treat a kid in such a situation like this? How do you think this young child is going to feel when the Catholic Church, that's suppossedly all about love and compassion, declares her to be moral scum while having no problem with the man who raped her for years since she was six? That sure is going to help her a lot.

The people who did this are the real moral scum.

[Dead Man]

Jesus fuck. How the hell do you excommunicate a child? I can understand if you are a doctrine freak excommunicating the mother and doctor, but the child? Evil fuckers all over the place.

[Log4Girlz]

Jesus fuck. How the hell do you excommunicate a child? I can understand if you are a doctrine freak excommunicating the mother and doctor, but the child? Evil fuckers all over the place.

We're talking about a religious organization. They believe the ending of a life is wrong no matter what. The 9 year old did wrong, because if she died for her child, then she would be rewarded with eternity in heaven. That's religion for you.