[Bit-Bit]

Camping like in those rage videos shown on page one is not fun. But imho Camping and Sniping are not exactly the same. A sniper is needed for observation, guidance and backup for a team. I can only agree to a certain degree to this. I bought BF3 just recently and am playing recon most of the time. Not for the camping and sniping but for the teamwork of spotting etc. As you mentioned Assault and Engineer do get the majority of the points. I myself find that to be a bit unfair cause most of the time they only get those shots cause I spotted the enemies. I only get 10 points for spotting and 20 or something like this when they get the kill...It takes forever to get a rank up as recon that way. So you are forced to shoot people (in close combat with non-recon weapons or by sniping them from good spots).

Here's some tips to rack up a bunch of points while playing as a recon.

Find the objective that's in the middle of the map. This is the most important point to capture. Place a spawn beacon in a conceal location right next to this objective. Also place a radar next to the spawn beacon. Then go off to a different location and stay alive for as long as possible while spotting and sniping whenever possible.

This accomplishes a few things. Whenever a team mate spawns on your beacon, you will get points. Then when they spawn, their radar will light up with enemy positions allowing them the chance to fight back and take back the objective. For every kill they get while utilizing your radar, you get points.

Whenever I play as recon, I usually only fire my gun if I can get a confirm kill. (when the enemy is running either towards you or away from) Most of the time, I'm staying alive and spotting while helping my teammates spawn at strategic points on the map.

[Bending_Unit_22]

In real life, snipers don't "camp" and staying in one spot for long is more or less a death wish for any sniper.

Also in real life, 25-50% of an army aren't snipers.

[BiggStankDogg]

For those saying "just go another route, dummy", it's not as simple as that in most instances, especially in a game like recent CoD's. Often times, you'll be pitted against a clan of 4 or 5 15th prestiges controlling a chunk of land. Yes, this is a testament to great teamwork and experience, so I'm not necessarily knocking it. But I AM saying that a lot of times, it's not as simple as "Don't run that way". An entire team camping in TDM with planning and determination is not a fun thing to run into.

Also, most campers are not as stupid as staying in the same EXACT spot. I'd say the more experienced campers have a rotation of 3 or 4 points in a small area of patrol. If they killed you upstairs from a window, they move downstairs to a corner and wait for you to run through expecting them to be upstairs, etc. Not hating, but it isn't the easiest thing to combat at all times. And IW did a great job of helping campers avoid grenades by introducing the lovely trophy system. I swear they are going out of their way to make a bigger clusterfuck of a game with every iteration.

That said, I agree with quick-scoping being more of an annoyance. I was in MW3 on Piazza and I was using a shotgun with damage and kept killing this one sniper repeatedly. In the main lobby, I got called a "fag" for using a shotgun with damage that can kill at 30 feet. I told him he was mad because he was half-camping trying to get quickscopes. He replied "YOU STUPID, I WAS RUNNING AROUND, WITH A SNIPER NO LESS!"

Soooooo... a shotgun killing from long distances is stupid, but running around with a sniper and quickscpoing makes all the sense in the world. Gaming logic at it's finest.

[B.O.O.M]

I know it's not a FPS but in Uncharted 3 MP, camping is not a big issue in most maps. There are always multiple access routes for locations so during objective missions it's easy to flank the enemy. Actually if the enemy is camping then it would be easier to take care of them. Yemen map is a great example of this

[Clint Beastwood]

so much this, In Battlefield you have people who run down the same path everytime and try to get the camper and then they get shot again, and again and again, never stopping to think how they could change up their tactics.

lol I used to get so many kills like this.

Grand Bazaar Conquest, no one would bother to flank around and instead try to rush into that narrow B alleyway.

[Nealand Liquor]

Yep. As long as enough players are running objectives, taking out that many players and keeping them on the respawn wait list is important. And again... This being BF, you still have to find good positions in multiple places on th map, all of which you could get killed from if someone bothered to figure out what you're doing.

As a sniper I run objectives. I generally scout, spot and communicate an objective to take. I then take out opposing support, then capture the area all too often by myself. From there I move to the next objective and repeat.
I'd argue the lack of communication and teamwork in favor of running around like fucking idiots playing battlefield lonewolf Rambo is what ruins the game.

[Shai-Tan]

I feel destruction has the potential to diminish the effectiveness of campers. Unfortunately DICE toned down destruction in BF3. In BC2 an entire building or area of trees would be blown to bits if someone continued the camp the exact same spot. In the original BF3 maps they are full of many indestructible objects that people can hide behind which not only gives them an advantage in cover but also makes it very difficult to see with the clutter all over the place. The one downside of destruction is people will raze any known camping spots preemptively so there has to be enough of them to have a fluid match but it's far better than going into every match facing lawn jockeys in the same spots every match because it gives a big advantage.

[Jake Tower]

Destructable environments solves the camping problem.

You want to camp a tower in Red Faction Guerrilla? Cool. I'll destroy the building you're in, killing you and eliminating that sniping position.

[Shai-Tan]

edit: double post

[Easy_D]

What about spies camping the same spots with the cloak and dagger?

Totally acceptable, it really isn't any different than regular camping. You just gotta take a look around you when passing through that particular area, it isn't that hard to notice a spy. That or you just respawn as Pyro and go spy hunting :)

Edit: Besides, the Cloak & Dagger has an uncloak sound, so you have to pay to attention, second you hear the uncloak, turn around and blast the sucker in the face.

[Nealand Liquor]

I feel destruction has the potential to diminish the effectiveness of campers. Unfortunately DICE toned down destruction in BF3. In BC2 an entire building or area of trees would be blown to bits if someone continued the camp the exact same spot. In the original BF3 maps they are full of many indestructible objects that people can hide behind which not only gives them an advantage in cover but also makes it very difficult to see with the clutter all over the place. The one downside of destruction is people will raze any known camping spots preemptively so there has to be enough of them to have a fluid match but it's far better than going into every match facing lawn jockeys in the same spots every match mi because it gives a big advantage.

A post so nice you had to post it twice :p

Though on point: I agree. Even as a sniper I dislike indestructable enviroments. I love me sniper hunting.

[animlboogy]

As a sniper I run objectives. I generally scout, spot and communicate an objective to take. I then take out opposing support, then capture the area all too often by myself. From there I move to the next objective and repeat. I'd argue the lack of communication and teamwork in favor of running around like fucking idiots playing battlefield lonewolf Rambo is what ruins the game.

Yeah, it does. It's part of why I'm actually excited about the upcoming expansion that's going to basically make it a CoD herp derp runaround fest, because people play that way anyway, and I don't play often enough to run with a clan to play private games where people actually communicate.

Heh, I once got a clan invite for a game in which I got almost no kills, because I spent the entire time following two other guys on a vehicle, making sure the thing was always repaired and waiting for it to respawn whenever it did get destroyed. That shouldn't be worth an invite, that should be how people just play the game to win.

Soooooo... a shotgun killing from long distances is stupid, but running around with a sniper and quickscpoing makes all the sense in the world. Gaming logic at it's finest.

The gaming logic rule of thumb when people bitch in game lobbies is pretty much "whatever I do is the right way. However you killed me is the wrong way."

I used to get messages all the time playing SFIV on 360 getting bitched out for controlling space with Bison and keeping people from getting moves off on me. I'm a horrible SF player, but I can pull off an okay Bison that way. How else am I supposed to do it? Just let you come in and beat the shit out of me?

[Jarmel]

I never understood the hate against campers. It's a billion times more realistic than running around the battlefield like a headless chicken, shooting whoever crosses your path.

Anyway saying realism needs to get their head checked. You're playing in a game with respawns, killstreaks and perks(for a few games anyway), allowing multiple bullets to hit you, little recoil for many games, and respawning health for a good chunk of games.

Firstly i would take out Prone from games like COD, has no function in such fast action games. If you would take out sniper rifles you would also need to take out all assault rifles with ACOG scopes etc. :P

Nobody should be using ACOG anyway.

If anything, for me camping got harder after COD4. I camped like a motherfucker in that game.

Camping was encouraged after COD4 due to the broken killstreaks. MW2 was especially bad as you could get 5 kills, hide in a corner and let your killstreaks do most of the work and if you were missing or short a kill then you wait for someone to randomly come by. Some of the maps also had ridiculous chokepoints in MW2, not to mention the godawful maps in MW3.

[animlboogy]

Anyway saying realism needs to get their head checked. You're playing in a game with respawns, killstreaks and perks(for a few games anyway), allowing multiple bullets to hit you, little recoil for many games, and respawning health for a good chunk of games.

But shouldn't we be allowed to have different options for playstyle besides running maps in a loop shooting whoever we see?

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Yeah, it does. It's part of why I'm actually excited about the upcoming expansion that's going to basically make it a CoD herp derp runaround fest, because people play that way anyway, and I don't play often enough to run with a clan to play private games where people actually communicate. Heh, I once got a clan invite for a game in which I got almost no kills, because I spent the entire time following two other guys on a vehicle, making sure the thing was always repaired and waiting for it to respawn whenever it did get destroyed. That shouldn't be worth an invite, that should be how people just play the game to win. The gaming logic rule of thumb when people bitch in game lobbies is pretty much "whatever I do is the right way. However you killed me is the wrong way." I used to get messages all the time playing SFIV on 360 getting bitched out for controlling space with Bison and keeping people from getting moves off on me. I'm a horrible SF player, but I can pull off an okay Bison that way. How else am I supposed to do it? Just let you come in and beat the shit out of me?

Yes.

[Shai-Tan]

lol I used to get so many kills like this. Grand Bazaar Conquest, no one would bother to flank around and instead try to rush into that narrow B alleyway.

the way the map is designed it favors fighting in that alley way. center point in conquest with a path to all objectives. if it had more levels in the buildings or some kind of destruction it wouldn't turn into so much of a spam fest. just bad map design

[animlboogy]

Yes.

;D

[Easy_D]

I started thinking, I loved how Left 4 Dead 2 dealed with camping. Spitters and Chargers are pretty great (Spitter especially) to get people out of their comfort zone.

[Nealand Liquor]

Yes.

;D

Lol'd irl

[Jarmel]

But shouldn't we be allowed to have different options for playstyle besides running maps in a loop shooting whoever we see?

There's a difference between slowly moving around a map and staying put every now and then, and camping. Camping is hiding in a remote spot of the map and waiting with a shotgun for someone to pass. It's kinda hard to separate the two at times as people may just wait at a chokepoint and pick people off but there are definitely some people who wait in obscure spots in respawning games and just pick people off.

Snipers by definition aren't campers. Anyone saying that is an idiot.

[LabouredSubterfuge]

I think people running about like headless chickens dying 26 times per game is far worse than camping....

I think it would be worse if FPS's cater to headless chicken running.

Yup yup.

Better map design is the real answer.

[Jarmel]

Yup yup. Better map design is the real answer.

Better map design is the answer to everything. It can solve a lot of issue with a game or bad map design can highlight everything wrong with the game. MW3 is a perfect example of the later.

[les papillons sexuels]

developers need to stop giving campers so many tools. One of the biggest downsides to camping is the fact your in a stationary position for so long, but that's meaningless if a player has mines they can deploy to watch their blindside, and can just toss grenades away from themselves.

[Shai-Tan]

But shouldn't we be allowed to have different options for playstyle besides running maps in a loop shooting whoever we see?

it's a false dichotomy imo. there's nothing wrong with the act of camping. it's how the game mechanics support it. for example, we were talking about destruction. the risk/reward for hiding in one spot is different in a game with destruction. same with games that have killcam. games without kill cam will be slowed down which could be good or bad depending on how the developers want to design the game. kill cam is a feature that could be overpowered so it's often limited to not be too obvious and it's often optional which is good for more experienced players as they can guess where they were shot from by knowing maps unlike new players who will feel frustrated if they aren't figuring out the normal hiding spaces that people are favoring

edit: just to drive the point home that it's not an either/or thing - with destruction it actually helps camping also as you can blow a hole out of a wall and shoot from it or use it to get up on the roofs of buildings and so on. the point is it makes the cover more ephemeral

[Sojgat]

developers need to stop giving campers so many tools. One of the biggest downsides to camping is the fact your in a stationary position for so long, but that's meaningless if a player has mines they can deploy to watch their blindside, and can just toss grenades away from themselves.

yup, it's the claymores that will get you. It's so hard to see them sometimes in BF3 because of the game's high contrast visual "style".

[Complistic]

Yes, try Tribes Ascend.

[Pandaman]

heh. That's the way I look at snipers. And why those I know camp in games. The problem I have with snipers is team work. They rarely do much other than have high k/d ratio.

keeping players off the board does help the team. would you rather have the flag rushed by 4 people every time or just 2?

[bjb]

keeping players off the board does help the team. would you rather have the flag rushed by 4 people every time or just 2?

Quality snipers can lock down entire portions of the opposing team.

[Jarmel]

Quality snipers can lock down entire portions of the opposing team.

That is really situational. It depends on gametype, maps, game itself and the opposing team. Any player who is half decent knows how to get around good snipers.

[Nealand Liquor]

That is really situational. It depends on gametype, maps, game itself and the opposing team. Any player who is half decent knows how to get around good snipers.

So a good sniper is less good than a half good player?

[JonathanPower]

Is there any way to make a modern online FPS that doesn't cater to campers-or is that here for good?

Well, you could give a certain time of invulnerability to the player immediatly after the respawn, in order to allows the player to not get immediatly killed by the campers.

[Sullichin]

I just want the COD-esque leveling system to go away. You just get better weapons the more you play, even if you suck, and it tricks you into thinking you're getting better at the game.

[patapuf]

There's a difference between slowly moving around a map and staying put every now and then, and camping. Camping is hiding in a remote spot of the map and waiting with a shotgun for someone to pass. It's kinda hard to separate the two at times as people may just wait at a chokepoint and pick people off but there are definitely some people who wait in obscure spots in respawning games and just pick people off. Snipers by definition aren't campers. Anyone saying that is an idiot.

but are such people really a problem? i mean if someone is hiding in a remote spot on the map he will not see a lot of action nor will he get many kills. They are not worth getting angry about.

I only get annoyed at campers when they are in my own team because most of them are useless.

Quality snipers can lock down entire portions of the opposing team.

Sadly (or luckily?) quality snipers are very rare

[JonathanPower]

but are such people really a problem? i mean if someone is hiding in a remote spot on the map he will not see a lot of action nor will he get many kills. They are not worth getting angry about. I only get annoyed at campers when they are in my own team because most of them are useless. Sadly (or luckily?) quality snipers are very rare

Yeah, I don't see camping as a problem, it is a strategy. And as you said, campers miss the most part of the fun.

[NinjaBoiX]

COD4 essentially solved it. You had killcam, well-designed maps and decent but not overpowering killstreaks that could flush people out. Then the sequels ruined it.

"Hey, we heard you like killstreaks, yada yada yada."

[SkyMasterson]

Set them on "hot coals", so to speak. So you have to keep moving or your health slowly deteriorates.

Thats a good idea!

I don't mind campers too much since they usually are compromised after a few kills.

[computers putin']

I think it would be worse if FPS's cater to headless chicken running.

Nowadays, I think alot of shooters do cater more to this style honestly, as long as you're in a lobby full of lone wolves.

[BattleMonkey]

In real life, snipers don't "camp" and staying in one spot for long is more or less a death wish for any sniper.

That is not true, snipers will spend hours in one spot in real life at times. Gamers spend 1 minute in a spot, and they are "camping"

[Raoh]

I always have problems with these "camper discussions"

I've seen, heard and experienced rude players complaining about campers in situations like:

Snipers in sniper vantage point positions. That's their job, they are not riflemen. I only hate snipers that don't communicate what they see. Claymores etc are part of the role. You want a sniper to be undefended? It is easier than people think to get away from a sniper, stop running around like a chicken. Even in socom 4 people complained that taking cover was a cheat or cheesy move. The cover wasn't the problem the idiot running down an open road without taking cover is the problem.

If there are two doors/entrances that lead to a VIP/Bomb room, its not camping, its covering important entrances. Why should I or my squad leave the vips alone or the bomb unattended just to run around? Isn't the goal to defend/attack that point?


Weapon wise I liked the socom of old, all weapons unlocked from the beginning. I am a Navy F'n Seal give my weapons to accomplish my mission.



one of my greatest experiences where I learnd to respect snipers was in socom's foxhunt map. Sniper reached out to me, saw I did not know the map well. (sidebar, would love it if shooters were all push to talk) So he communicated to me what he saw and I would react accordingly. While he covered and sniped the gas station, bridge and river, I went out and defended him by the hill, house and wall, learning the map and common strategies all though communication and patience. If that is camping, people have problems.


Oh and once I learned to appreciate the sniper, my motto/tag became:

"Don't Run, You'll Only Die Tired"

[Raoh]

Snipers will spend hours in one spot in real life. Gamers spend 1 minute in a spot, and they are "camping"

This, the exp system has ruined it. Sniper may not get a high K/d ration but will probably get the one kill that could win the game.

[Mooreberg]

Create an incentive for winning in the rank progression. Use dynamic objectives instead of static ones. The main problem with any shooter now is that ranking up is a given, and even worse, is often quicker for people who just focus on playing TDM in every mode. This means people can rank up and keep their KD/R high. Throw in games not even showing your win/loss outside of a web site (Killzone 3 and Battlefield 3) and easily camped spawn points. It is a predictable mess every time.

Also, kill cam only helps to a degree. It isn't like the person camping doesn't know it is happening. And unlimited claymores and C4 go a long way to holding down a position.

Yeah, I don't see camping as a problem, it is a strategy. And as you said, campers miss the most part of the fun.

Outside of TDM, it is only a strategy to the extent that is relates to helping your team win the objective. You can go into any Domination game in COD or a similar mode in other games and see people who rack up kills, never capture an area, and don't give a shit when they lose. It is lousy when they are on your team because they are not going to help you win, and it is boring when they are the opponent because you'll rarely see opposition outside of the one capture point they are camping on for the entire match. It blows my mind in BF3 when I can get a flag attacker ribbon before killing someone or getting killed myself.*

*Console version on large maps, I doubt this happens in 64 player matches on the PC.

[Nealand Liquor]

Here's an idea, maybe someone should develop a shooter that is strictly run and gun. This way everyone who is mad over people not playing they way the like will have nothing to complain about.

[Always-honest]

It's just one way of playing the game. You need to find a way to beat them. Campers rarely get high scores.

[RedSwirl]

Camping was encouraged after COD4 due to the broken killstreaks. MW2 was especially bad as you could get 5 kills, hide in a corner and let your killstreaks do most of the work and if you were missing or short a kill then you wait for someone to randomly come by. Some of the maps also had ridiculous chokepoints in MW2, not to mention the godawful maps in MW3.

I guess I'm just comparing everything to the way COD4 is on PC where you have 40 players to a game and one airstrike can get you 15+ kills.

[mhayze]

Never thought of this as a solution, but looks like it could help... do you know of any game that implemented it? One other solution could be some sort of "reverse-stealth" approach: if you hold your position for more than n seconds, it becomes visible on every enemy radar/hud around (maybe the visibility radius could start short and keep growing while staying still). But this kind of solution would probably have its drawbacks as well...

I've played on plenty of Counter Strike / CSS servers that implemented this or a variant as a server mod. Of course plenty of people would leave when they found out that they were losing health for camping and / or being AFK (the mod can't distinguish). Then people started making small movements within the detection window. Other servers have either completely eliminated the best sniper rifle (AWP/AWM) or limit it to one per side per round. In games with very short rounds, however, sniping is very strategic - people who stay still in one spot tend to have low scores.

[Flying_Phoenix]

All you really need is good gun mechanics and level design. CounterStrike and Team Fortress rely on camping strategies up to a point because eventually someone can, and will, sneak up on you.

With games like say Call of Duty, there is a very low risk of this. It also doesn't help that those games usually don't have high recoil so you can just hold the trigger button from afar and still kill people.

[Raoh]

Create an incentive for winning in the rank progression. Use dynamic objectives instead of static ones. The main problem with any shooter now is that ranking up is a given, and even worse, is often quicker for people who just focus on playing TDM in every mode. This means people can rank up and keep their KD/R high. Throw in games not even showing your win/loss outside of a web site (Killzone 3 and Battlefield 3) and easily camped spawn points. It is a predictable mess every time. Also, kill cam only helps to a degree. It isn't like the person camping doesn't know it is happening. And unlimited claymores and C4 go a long way to holding down a position. Outside of TDM, it is only a strategy to the extent that is relates to helping your team win the objective. You can go into any Domination game in COD or a similar mode in other games and see people who rack up kills, never capture an area, and don't give a shit when they lose. It is lousy when they are on your team because they are not going to help you win, and it is boring when they are the opponent because you'll rarely see opposition outside of the one capture point they are camping on for the entire match. It blows my mind in BF3 when I can get a flag attacker ribbon before killing someone or getting killed myself.* *Console version on large maps, I doubt this happens in 64 player matches on the PC.

MAG

[Dylan]

I came to post something like this:



But after a quick google image search.. has there... always.. been... that much... TF2 homo erotic deviant art....???

*curls up in ball and shudders*

[SirButterstick]

I will pay good money to see Elpresador chained to a chair and forced to play a good 12 hours of Red Orchestra 2. Someone please make it happen!

I think BF3 does a good job of making camping a risk.

[Mileena]

Nothing will ever solve it. Camping has been around forever. Lame people will always play lame. It's like people who pick Guile in Street Fighter.