[Instigator]

I wish people wouldn't say gender is a social construct like it's an established fact. It certainly isn't a social construct in my experience of gender. I always said I'd want the body of a woman even if I was the only person on the planet.

If you were the only person on the planet and always had been, how would you know which body would fit you best with no frame of reference?

[Platy]

If you were the only person on the planet and always had been, how would you know which body would fit you best with no frame of reference?

It is possible you don't know what exactly you want ... but i'm SURE that you will fell that your beard/huge breasts are a pain in the ass .... hell, we could even go smaller and do stuff like monobrow or hairy ears/nose =P

[Dariee]

I'm pretty sure that if science gave transgender people an option that would be like "take this pill, sleep and wake up with your favorite genital" people would not even THINK of doing anything related to those things ...or did you said about the gross meal stuff ?

That's what I was referring to, yes.

Though my bad working could be interpretated like a 'don't alterate your body (especially genetalia) by using surgery/knives/needles etc' i.e. making it sound like a transphobic thing. Which was (hopefully obviously) not what I meant. But just to be sure, put the edit in there.

[Jamie xxoo]

If you were the only person on the planet and always had been, how would you know which body would fit you best with no frame of reference?

I never said always had been.

But if you take away society shouldn't any social construct just fall away?

[Instigator]

I never said always had been. But if you take away society shouldn't any social construct just fall away?

Then you would have had the time to assimilate it and it would still be in your head, but without anyone to compare yourself to, you'd feel less compelled to want a particular body over another.

[zoukka]

A few terrible people in #ga just totally fucking shattered the confidence and self worth I've been trying to build up. No, it's totally hilarious to call me a dickgirl. No, please ask me how long my penis is. How could that possibly be offensive? I left the chat before I started crying at work so I don't know who they were.

Goddamn I want that log so I can put those mofos on ignore. That is if they even use real nicks there.

[pizzaroll]

I figured that was the case, but I didn't want to assume. I don't know Spanish, but I'll see what I can dig up. Edit: Okay, I found this. It has a booklet (Our Trans Children) in both English and Spanish. Hope that helps. :)

The New York chapter of PFLAG has information in Spanish. http://www.pflagnyc.org/support/resources

Thanks, I'll show these to her if I feel like she still doesn't quite understand next time we talk about it.

In slightly related news, I just realized that my driver's permit says F -- no, I didn't do it on purpose! (I didn't even fill out those forms!)... Should I leave it as is?

[Jintor]

/edit wrong topic

[tiff]

Got an apology from someone! I'm feeling a lot better now. I really don't want to reread the logs to see if anyone else said anything.

oh that's cool, good to them for owning up.

[Stumpokapow]

RE: #ga, since any apology Billiechu got was obviously not public;

irc.gamecubecafe.com #ga

1) It's not "GAF's official IRC channel". It is an IRC channel where a lot of people from GAF hang out, but it's not a 1:1 thing, there are people in the chat with no GAF accounts, and the rules are not exactly the same.

2) Just the same, everyone is welcome in #ga and typically people are banned for that kind of stuff, or gay-bashing, or racial slurs, or whatever. Unfortunately there are relatively few ops and they aren't around 100% of the time at all. I am not an op in #ga. I understand that since then a few people got added to the OP list to help with responsiveness. If you do decide to come back (your call, obviously) and face any other kind of abuse then you should feel free to PM anyone who is opped and if they're around, they will kickban the offenders. Rukes is a robot.

PM them on IRC, not on NeoGAF, because again, see #1.

[Platy]

Stumbled across this graphic ... is badly designed to the point of almost irritanting me ... but it is useful for fast linking if the situation needs.. so ...

[thatbox]

That's the worst pen tool usage I've seen in months :(

[Aeana]

The title of that graphic is irritating. One of the problems with society is that some people have determined that some words are bad, period. Words are nothing without intent. Someone is not being hateful just because they say a word; what matters is how it's used, and whether they meant anything by it.

[Femmeworth]

The title of that graphic is irritating. One of the problems with society is that some people have determined that some words are bad, period. Words are nothing without intent. Someone is not being hateful just because they say a word; what matters is how it's used, and whether they meant anything by it.

Connotation, how does it work? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[JasonUresti]

By the time such an operation would be possible, I would think transgender people would be far more widely accepted. Regardless, this is the same line of thinking as people who think homosexuality can be "cured." I'm sure you mean well, though.

I disagree. Someone having the brain and thought patterns of one side of the coin and feeling their body is incorrect is not the same as someone being at peace with their body and being attracted to the same sex.

For a trans person who is comfortable or at peace with their physical characteristics, all is well, but from reading the threads around this topic it seems many are not, but for financial or other reasons cannot take the necessary steps to help deal with the situation.

It's why it brought to my thoughts those people who suffer from a sense of body that is different from their physical form, that their brains don't recognize limbs or digits as "real". While not exactly the same, the mental pain both cause can be equally severe.

I'm certainly not advocating changing a person's personality, just extra things that one day might be done to help a person cope with their own unique circumstances.

When I made that post I was under no small amount of physical pain, so it had my sympathy for others ramped up a bit, and the two combined perhaps causing my thoughts to come out jumbled, and not fully thought through. Apologies, my aim was not to cause anyone discomfort.

[shidoshi]

I know some disagree, but I don't like the "it's bad to ask about a person's situation" note. The whole transgender topic is still a very unknown thing for a lot of people, and the way to gain more acceptance is by gaining more understanding. I know there's a point where you just want to be you, and not be "trans", but if somebody is being genuine in their asking and wants to understand your situation better, I think it's better to inform them than to tell them they're being offensive by asking.

The honest asking of questions should never be seen as offensive.

[thatbox]

The title of that graphic is irritating. One of the problems with society is that some people have determined that some words are bad, period. Words are nothing without intent. Someone is not being hateful just because they say a word; what matters is how it's used, and whether they meant anything by it.

Despite the title, there was only one "word," and that word is rarely used positively. The rest are phrases or questions, which, while they may be sincere, spring from cis-normativity/entitlement at best.

Edit: Fair enough, shidoshi.

[Dead Man]

I know some disagree, but I don't like the "it's bad to ask about a person's situation" note. The whole transgender topic is still a very unknown thing for a lot of people, and the way to gain more acceptance is by gaining more understanding. I know there's a point where you just want to be you, and not be "trans", but if somebody is being genuine in their asking and wants to understand your situation better, I think it's better to inform them than to tell them they're being offensive by asking. The honest asking of questions should never be seen as offensive.

I think they are only talking about asking 3rd parties rather than the person in question directly. At least that is the way I read it.

[QuickSilverD]

I have a hypothetical question that may be terrible offensive so let me apologize in advance for asking it.

It is my understanding that a transgender person feels as if their brains do not match their bodies, and I am aware of studies showing trans-people brain chemistry being different. To correct this and for the person to feel like "who they really are" sex-reassignment surgery is in order.

However I wonder, and this is the question I was alluring to: If there was some sort of brain surgery, that could turn the transgendered brain into a "cisgendered" brain, nothing else changes of course, you still have your functions and tastes and memories and all that, though I guess some of your identity would change given that you would identify with the gender of your body post surgery.

I'm wondering if you guys would take that option if it was available, I cannot imagine that it would cost more than the alternative and you wouldn't have to take hormones for a long period of time.

Again this is all very hypothetical, and I am not looking to offend anyone, just had the thought in my head.

[Emitan]

Nope. Never.

That completely changes who I am.

[Gaborn]

I have a hypothetical question that may be terrible offensive so let me apologize in advance for asking it. It is my understanding that a transgender person feels as if their brains do not match their bodies, and I am aware of studies showing trans-people brain chemistry being different. To correct this and for the person to feel like "who they really are" sex-reassignment surgery is in order. However I wonder, and this is the question I was alluring to: If there was some sort of brain surgery, that could turn the transgendered brain into a "cisgendered" brain, nothing else changes of course, you still have your functions and tastes and memories and all that, though I guess some of your identity would change given that you would identify with the gender of your body post surgery. I'm wondering if you guys would take that option if it was available, I cannot imagine that it would cost more than the alternative and you wouldn't have to take hormones for a long period of time. Again this is all very hypothetical, and I am not looking to offend anyone, just had the thought in my head.

Just curious, would YOU take advantage of it to become a woman? (I'm assuming you're a man)

[Lissar]

Changing someone's BRAIN is far more serious than changing their body. It's not just a simple switch. Such a thing would completely change who they are.

[Dead Man]

I have a hypothetical question that may be terrible offensive so let me apologize in advance for asking it. It is my understanding that a transgender person feels as if their brains do not match their bodies, and I am aware of studies showing trans-people brain chemistry being different. To correct this and for the person to feel like "who they really are" sex-reassignment surgery is in order. However I wonder, and this is the question I was alluring to: If there was some sort of brain surgery, that could turn the transgendered brain into a "cisgendered" brain, nothing else changes of course, you still have your functions and tastes and memories and all that, though I guess some of your identity would change given that you would identify with the gender of your body post surgery. I'm wondering if you guys would take that option if it was available, I cannot imagine that it would cost more than the alternative and you wouldn't have to take hormones for a long period of time. Again this is all very hypothetical, and I am not looking to offend anyone, just had the thought in my head.

I think the difficulty with that would be that when people speak of 'I' they mean the mind, not the body attached. So it would fundamentally change how they perceive themselves. From a purely pragmatic viewpoint it would probably be easier if it was available, but from a mental health viewpoint it raises all sorts of concerns.

[Bamelin]

I have a hypothetical question that may be terrible offensive so let me apologize in advance for asking it. It is my understanding that a transgender person feels as if their brains do not match their bodies, and I am aware of studies showing trans-people brain chemistry being different. To correct this and for the person to feel like "who they really are" sex-reassignment surgery is in order. However I wonder, and this is the question I was alluring to: If there was some sort of brain surgery, that could turn the transgendered brain into a "cisgendered" brain, nothing else changes of course, you still have your functions and tastes and memories and all that, though I guess some of your identity would change given that you would identify with the gender of your body post surgery. I'm wondering if you guys would take that option if it was available, I cannot imagine that it would cost more than the alternative and you wouldn't have to take hormones for a long period of time. Again this is all very hypothetical, and I am not looking to offend anyone, just had the thought in my head.

Go watch the star trek episode called The Outcast.

The whole brain surgery thing doesnt work out to well in terms of retaining who you are as a person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Out...ext_Generation)

[Spiffy_1st]

I know some disagree, but I don't like the "it's bad to ask about a person's situation" note. The whole transgender topic is still a very unknown thing for a lot of people, and the way to gain more acceptance is by gaining more understanding. I know there's a point where you just want to be you, and not be "trans", but if somebody is being genuine in their asking and wants to understand your situation better, I think it's better to inform them than to tell them they're being offensive by asking. The honest asking of questions should never be seen as offensive.

Yeah, I was going to say that. If I didn't stalk everyone in this thread then I would have no idea what the deal was with transgender people. Assuming everyone should know everything about a complex issue is silly, plus as the picture proves there are so many ways to offend transgender people that you wouldn't want to go up and personally ask questions in fear that it might be offensive. Like for example, I'm worried that just saying transgender people are easily offended is offensive.

[Bomber Bob]

Nope, I like who I am.

[Emitan]

Yeah, I was going to say that. If I didn't stalk everyone in this thread then I would have no idea what the deal was with transgender people. Assuming everyone should know everything about a complex issue is silly, plus as the picture proves there are so many ways to offend transgender people that you wouldn't want to go up and personally ask questions in fear that it might be offensive. Like for example, I'm worried that just saying transgender people are easily offended is offensive.

I don't want anyone to be afraid to ask questions as long as they respect me :)

[shidoshi]

I'm wondering if you guys would take that option if it was available, I cannot imagine that it would cost more than the alternative and you wouldn't have to take hormones for a long period of time.

Putting aside the emotional reaction to the question, and looking at it logically, I see it like this. I don't want to be male, so telling me that I could fix myself to be male and happy isn't what I want. But, my feelings of being female come from a defect with my body - so I wasn't supposed to identify that way.

Unlike a few of the other response you've received, I think fixing the brain would be the easier option when given everything involved in the process. If there really was such a fix, it could totally be possible that I'd be perfectly happy with my life if that "defect" was corrected.

I just want to feel like I belong in this world, which I don't feel right now. If fixing my brain made me feel that, then that would be a perfectly valid option. But then I get back to the emotional side of the question, and I think I wouldn't want that. People aren't supposed to by gay, right? But that variation in nature exists. Would "fixing" being gay make the lives of some people easier? Absolutely. Yet those people would probably hate losing that piece of their identity. But that identity wasn't supposed to be there in the first place.

It's a very complicated issue.

[Jamie xxoo]

if there was some sort of brain surgery, that could turn the transgendered brain into a "cisgendered" brain, nothing else changes of course, you still have your functions and tastes and memories and all that, though I guess some of your identity would change given that you would identify with the gender of your body post surgery. I'm wondering if you guys would take that option if it was available.

I would have taken the option of brain surgery in a heartbeat. I would have volunteered while it was still experimental! And I would have been fixed up as a child because I would have known there was a cure and there'd be no stigma in asking for it. I'd have had such a better life without body dysphoria, 100% for sure. I don't really care how much it might have changed my personality. I don't think the one I've got is really that special that it needs to be preserved at all costs lol ;)

[lexi]

If this brain surgery were an option, and I could have it applied from childhood, then I'd have to say yes. Having said that, I'm happy who I am now, I'm just a bit bitter about all the costs involved. A cis-male could have all my happiness and more for FREE!

[QuickSilverD]

Just curious, would YOU take advantage of it to become a woman? (I'm assuming you're a man)

I am a cisgendered man, I don't feel any curiosity about what it would be like to be a woman, so I guess I wouldn't try to change anything in me even if it was easy.

If you are asking me whenever I would take the brain surgery option if I was transgender then I cannot answer you. I've been lurking in this thread for a while, even made some posts before, but I can't say my mind can really comprehend the transgender experience, I never thought of myself as a man in a male body, I was always just "male", how "I" would feel if I would have to think of myself as body and mind being separated and incompatible I do not know.

Maybe the social pressure would it made it easier to change my brain to accommodate a female brain, maybe I would feel so strongly identified with my gender that I would have chosen body surgery, I don't know, I really don't.

Thanks everyone who answered my question.

[Platy]

I would have taken the option of brain surgery in a heartbeat. I would have volunteered while it was still experimental! And I would have been fixed up as a child because I would have known there was a cure and there'd be no stigma in asking for it. I'd have had such a better life without body dysphoria, 100% for sure. I don't really care how much it might have changed my personality. I don't think the one I've got is really that special that it needs to be preserved at all costs lol ;)

And if the choice was between the surgery or ... a pill that instantly changes your sex Ranma 1/2 or Sexy no Jutsu style (but permanent) ?

I mean ... years of therapy and complex surgery and money spend and prejudice are something .... not pleasant.

Instantly turning into a cis girl .... much better.

[Jamie xxoo]

And if the choice was between the surgery or ... a pill that instantly changes your sex Ranma 1/2 or Sexy no Jutsu style (but permanent) ? I mean ... years of therapy and complex surgery and money spend and prejudice are something .... not pleasant. Instantly turning into a cis girl .... much better.

My parents would still feel like they lost their baby boy and go through mourning if I had just been able to take a pill. I'd still have prejudice against me as not being REALLY a girl from people if they knew I was born a boy. I'd still not be able to use any qualifications I had gotten in my old identity, and I'd still have this massive change in life trajectory that would cause everything to have happened before to have been a big waste of time, and I'd still not be able to talk openly about great big chunks of my past without making myself really really vulnerable to the person I'm talking to.

So, I'd still get the brain surgery. If we're going through hypotheticals, the only one that really appeals to me is not being born trans at all, and not having to deal with gender issues ever. I would't care if I was born male or female, as long as everything was aligned.

[alysonwheel]

On brain surgery, that sort of thing has been tried before.

[tearsofash]

I've been going on dates with a ladyfriend, and she's been saying stuff like "be a man and do X"

I've given her the most stern looks I can, and she catches on pretty quickly. She's perfectly OK with who I am, and who I will eventually become. feelsgoodman.jpg

Although, it's a little funny that she messes up once in a while.

[Dead Man]

I've been going on dates with a ladyfriend, and she's been saying stuff like "be a man and do X" I've given her the most stern looks I can, and she catches on pretty quickly. She's perfectly OK with who I am, and who I will eventually become. feelsgoodman.jpg Although, it's a little funny that she messes up once in a while.

Anyone should be looking askance at that, male or female, cis or trans. Gah, sorry, glad she is cool, that shit just pisses me off.

[Emitan]

Going to come out to my sister~

I'm really nervous and don't know what I'm going to say yet :/

[Jintor]

If she truly loves you then you're gonna be totally fine, Billie.

You got this.

[Lissar]

Going to come out to my sister~ I'm really nervous and don't know what I'm going to say yet :/

*hug*

I hope everything goes well. :D We're here for you.

[Emitan]

If she truly loves you then you're gonna be totally fine, Billie. You got this.

<3 you, Jinty~

She's gonna be fine with it, but I'm bad with words. Probably going to end up just bluntly saying it...

EDIT: Thanks, Lissars!

[Dead Man]

<3 you, Jinty~ She's gonna be fine with it, but I'm bad with words. Probably going to end up just bluntly saying it...

If she will be fine with it, then that is probably the best way, all the best.

[Emitan]

Found this on Reddit

[Emitan]

Guess who came out to their sister just now?

This girl!

It went really well... after I explained what being transgendered meant :P

[Hazaro]

Guess who came out to their sister just now? This girl! It went really well... after I explained what being transgendered meant :P

Good for you!

[lexi]

Awesome! Congrats Billie! =)

[Jintor]

<3

[Emitan]

*does the "My Sister is totally okay with having a new sister" dance*

[InfiniteNine]

*dances with Billie and hugs* Congrats~!

[Professor Beef]

Grats Billie!

[Copernicus]

Very awesome, good to hear it went well.