[Alrix]

People need to understand that Roy was fired. He ain't coming back.

Maybe if Roy stayed relevant to FE he could return. But now I don't see why they'd have him over Krom or Ike.

exactly.

[NeonZ]

It would be cool if there were 4 pokemon characters, two being Pikachu and Lucario, and then two being a Gen 2/3 rep and a gen 5 rep.

I'd prefer to kick Pikachu out and keep the FireRed Trainer if we were to get only one gen 1 representative, but I know that isn't likely...

Still, I'd prefer if they kept the whole "protagonist representation before secondary characters" that Smash has going on in general. Pokemon was the only exception but that was fixed by the trainer's inclusion so I hope they don't step back there.

Maybe if Roy stayed relevant to FE he could return. But now I don't see why they'd have him over Krom or Ike.

Well, Roy is a DLC character in the newest FE and has focus in 4 DLC chapters (although Ike shares that focus in 3 of them, still, he got one chapter over Ike) that's more relevance than what he had when Brawl was made. Still, if we're looking at a small or no increase in the character line up like the new discussions seem to be assuming, he likely won't be in.

[RealDeadOne]

My idea for a Pokemon rep was to replace Pokemon Trainer with May from Emerald, and have her Pokemon be Munclax, Squirtle, and Combusken (yeah I know, the anime doesn't really reflect the games); that way we'd have a returning first gen Pokemon in Squirtle and a badly needed third gen Pokemon in Combusken, and then a fourth gen Pokemon in the ever popular Munchlax. Then Lucario could be replaced with a fifth gen Pokemon and all we'd be missing is a gen 2 Pokemon, who I wish could be Togetic but honestly that's probably not gonna happen.

I think that Sakurai should focus on getting as many new characters in as possible, even if that means cutting lots of older characters. It may seem evil, but I'd much rather they give us lots of new characters on the disc and then sell the cut characters later on as DLC. I mean seriously who would sell better as DLC, Little Mac, or Mewtwo? Characters like Roy, Wolf/Falco, and yes Jigglypuff would just work better as DLC, being more guaranteed to sell and freeing up spots for newcomers.

[Boss Doggie]

Still, I'd prefer if they kept the whole "protagonist representation before secondary characters" that Smash has going on in general. Pokemon was the only exception but that was fixed by the trainer's inclusion so I hope they don't step back there.

Que?

I guess you'd argue about Pokemon protagonist being Red, etc. but do note that in those games it's the mons that stand out more.

[cednym]

Still, I'd prefer if they kept the whole "protagonist representation before secondary characters" that Smash has going on in general. Pokemon was the only exception but that was fixed by the trainer's inclusion so I hope they don't step back there.

Falco.

[Boss Doggie]

I think that Sakurai should focus on getting as many new characters in as possible, even if that means cutting lots of older characters. It may seem evil, but I'd much rather they give us lots of new characters on the disc and then sell the cut characters later on as DLC. I mean seriously who would sell better as DLC, Little Mac, or Mewtwo? Characters like Roy, Wolf/Falco, and yes Jigglypuff would just work better as DLC, being more guaranteed to sell and freeing up spots for newcomers.

So instead of developing existing characters you just remove them and place them later!

[JazzmanZ]

I'd prefer to kick Pikachu out and keep the FireRed Trainer if we were to get only one gen 1 representative, but I know that isn't likely... Still, I'd prefer if they kept the whole "protagonist representation before secondary characters" that Smash has going on in general. Pokemon was the only exception but that was fixed by the trainer's inclusion so I hope they don't step back there. Well, Roy is a DLC character in the newest FE and has focus in 4 DLC chapters (although Ike shares that focus in 3 of them, still, he got one chapter over Ike) that's more relevance than what he had when Brawl was made. Still, if we're looking at a small or no increase in the character line up like the new discussions seem to be assuming, he likely won't be in.

you prefer to kick the MASCOT of pokemon OUT?! I mean I can understand where people get off wanting Jigglypuff cut, but Pikachu?

We should kick Kirby and Mario too since we have metaknight and luigi

[DGRE]

Aww man noone got my joke...

[Boss Doggie]

'kay guys let's talk about another really good Metroid character.

SA-X

You know, that X parasite that infected the old Power Suit? Really creepy one too!

B: Ice Beam - non-chargeable projectile that freezes enemy
Up B: Screw Attack - deals only a single, strong hit that knocks away enemies instead of a multihit
Down B: Power Bomb - drops a bomb that takes a while to explode, but has a huge radius; can only deploy one at a time
Side B: Wave Beam - I don't recall SA-X getting a missile so yeah; this one is a chargeable multi-hit beam that passes through enemies
Final Smash: Parasite Form - its true, beastial form when you bring it down to critical health in Fusion; invincible, jumps around, and can fire a wave of energy

It's a good way to introduce the rest of Samus's arsenal too.

[RealDeadOne]

So instead of developing existing characters you just remove them and place them later!

...Exactly? I don't see what's wrong at all with that. I'd much rather have new characters than slightly different ones from the old games. Especially how all the changes to existing characters in Brawl ended up being for the worse anyway.

[Boss Doggie]

Cutting is something really hard to do though, especially when people pick favorites. That's why you might as well not cut.

Especially how all the changes to existing characters in Brawl ended up being for the worse anyway.

The only characters I have seen that ended up sucking are Sheik, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, and Bowser.

[RealDeadOne]

The only characters I have seen that ended up sucking are Sheik, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, and Bowser.

Not talking about characters being made totally bad, even the little changes were not good. Samus got worse, Mario's FLUDD mechanic was totally useless, Falco's dumb kicking reflector thing, etc. The movesets and balance were overall a step back from Melee, and the new characters like Snake, Meta Knight and Ike ended up being the most fun to use.

Cutting is something really hard to do though, especially when people pick favorites. That's why you might as well not cut.

I do agree with that mostly. The only characters I think really need some cuts/replacements are Pokemon, the representation is all out of whack with that series.

[Lord_Byron28]

Not talking about characters being made totally bad, even the little changes were not good. Samus got worse, Mario's FLUDD mechanic was totally useless, Falco's dumb kicking reflector thing, etc. The movesets and balance were overall a step back from Melee, and the new characters like Snake, Meta Knight and Ike ended up being the most fun to use. I do agree with that mostly. The only characters I think really need some cuts/replacements are Pokemon, the representation is all out of whack with that series.

I seem to remember Peach got downgraded as well.

Also completely agree with Pokemon. I feel that Sakurai knows little about the pokemon series.

[Gravijah]

pikachu: mascot of the series

jigglypuff: "joke" character

pichu: new joke character, related to pikachu

mewtwo: one of the most popular legendaries

lucario: very very popular, one of the faces of gen iv

pokemon trainer: red x gen 1 starters

[BGBW]

stunfisk: Sakurai's favourite.

[Boss Doggie]

Not talking about characters being made totally bad, even the little changes were not good. Samus got worse, Mario's FLUDD mechanic was totally useless, Falco's dumb kicking reflector thing, etc. The movesets and balance were overall a step back from Melee, and the new characters like Snake, Meta Knight and Ike ended up being the most fun to use.

Oh right, forgot about Samus. And I dunno, they made Mario's Down B a normal move now so I guess that helps since his aerial down a kinda sucks. Falco reflector kick is actually pretty useful.

I seem to remember Peach got downgraded as well.

I thought she was upgraded - but traded her powerful down smash to a shitty one.

Anyway guys lets talk about SA-X.

[Vidiot]

Meh, SA-X would just be a Samus model with different moves. If we get another Metroid character it better be Ridley!

[Lord_Byron28]

I thought she was upgraded - but traded her powerful down smash to a shitty one. Anyway guys lets talk about SA-X.

Different ways to play I suppose. I thought her B-over move got nerfed.

I'd rather have Dark Samus than SA-X. Dark Samus could be more of a Mewtwo like character with strong phazon enhanced attacks.

[RealDeadOne]

Yeah, as far as a second Metroid character goes I'd say Dark Samus, Ridley, and even some Hunter like Rundas or Sylux come first. Though SA-X would be a cool way to get Samus' arsenal into the game, I wouldn't be against just giving Samus ice missiles or some kind of rapid fire wave/plasma beam when the B button is pressed fast. Samus definitely is ready for some changes, since she's still based on Super and since then she's had an entire trilogy of games plus two full-blown sequels to Super.

[NeonZ]

you prefer to kick the MASCOT of pokemon OUT?! I mean I can understand where people get off wanting Jigglypuff cut, but Pikachu?

Who was the protagonist in Pokemon Red/Blue/FireRed/GreenLeaf? The trainer, not Pikachu. Which were the initial pokemons that were even used for the covers of those games? The starter trio, not Pikachu.

Pikachu had Yellow later and is the "mascot" of the multimedia franchise, but he was never really the "main" Pokemon in the games.

We should kick Kirby and Mario too since we have metaknight and luigi

That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying though. Mario and Kirby are protagonists too, not just mascots/popular characters. It's kind of what bothers me about the characters choices in some Capcom crossovers, where you have secondary characters making it in before the actual protagonists in some cases (most notably the Megaman situation in MvC3, but there were various other examples too throughout their crossovers). The only thing similar to that Smash has ever done was choosing Pikachu over the Pokemon trainer.

[SmithnCo]

I'd say Hunters don't have a chance since nobody seems to be interested in following up on them. Ridley and Dark Samus are the best bets.

Dark Samus especially is more visually interesting and is in more games than SA-X.

[Lord_Byron28]

Yeah, as far as a second Metroid character goes I'd say Dark Samus, Ridley, and even some Hunter like Rundas or Sylux come first. Though SA-X would be a cool way to get Samus' arsenal into the game, I wouldn't be against just giving Samus ice missiles or some kind of rapid fire wave/plasma beam when the B button is pressed fast. Samus definitely is ready for some changes, since she's still based on Super and since then she's had an entire trilogy of games plus two full-blown sequels to Super.

Yeah, Samus is in definite need of updating. However, who knows what Sakurai has planned. I've said this a few times but allowing customizable movesets(for their B Moves and final smash) would solve a lot of issues and I'd prefer that over new characters.

Who was the protagonist in Pokemon Red/Blue/FireRed/GreenLeaf? The trainer, not Pikachu. Which were the initial pokemons that were even used for the covers of those games? The starter trio, not Pikachu. Pikachu had Yellow later and is the "mascot" of the multimedia franchise, but he was never really the "main" Pokemon in the games. That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying though. Mario and Kirby are protagonists too, not just mascots/popular characters. It's kind of what bothers me about the characters choices in some Capcom crossovers, where you have secondary characters making it in before the actual protagonists in some cases (most notably the Megaman situation in MvC3, but there were various other examples too throughout their crossovers). The only thing similar to that Smash has ever done was choosing Pikachu over the Pokemon trainer.

Pikachu has and always will be seen as the mascot of the series. It may not be that relevant in the games but it's status transcends that. Pikachu to this day is still the star of a lot of pokemon spinoff titles as well and is the only pokemon to have gotten so much attention. The mascot pokemon for each gen always trump the actual protagonists.

[RealDeadOne]

Who was the protagonist in Pokemon Red/Blue/FireRed/GreenLeaf? The trainer, not Pikachu. Which were the initial pokemons that were even used for the covers of those games? The starter trio, not Pikachu. Pikachu had Yellow later and is the "mascot" of the multimedia franchise, but he was never really the "main" Pokemon in the games.

When Smash started, it was just a "mascot fighter"; there was no mind paid to fair representation of franchises. Every franchise got their mascot, and it just so happens that Pokemon is the only one of those franchises whose mascot is not a protagonist or player character. There is absolutely no doubt that Pikachu is the most recognizable aspect of the Pokemon series, moreso than any other Pokemon. The player characters are far, far behind in recognizably, well behind Squirtle and Bulbasur and Charizard and Jigglypuff and even Mewtwo. In fact, the most recognizable Pokemon trainer isn't even in the games- when people I know first played Brawl, they saw Red and said "hey it's Ash!". He's even voiced by Ash because Nintendo knew people knew Ash better than Red.

In short, Pokemon is unique in Nintendo's franchises in that it's defined far more by it's secondary characters than the (technically) nameless, hollow player avatar. Pokemon Trainer in Brawl was really the only accurate way to portray a trainer in a fighting game, and I don't think Sakurai even thought about how to do that until Brawl.

[Boss Doggie]

Then again SA-X would be redundant since it's the same Varia suit.

Unless they make Fusion Samus... :)

[Chet Rippo]

SA-X literally is a clone of Samus.

[Anth0ny]

Roy IS relevant again you fools!

[SmithnCo]

Roy IS relevant again you fools!

As FE3DS DLC along with a bunch of other characters. >_>

[Gravijah]

roy is so pretty.

[ScraftyDevil]

If they used his new design, I wouldn't mind having Roy back in the game. I preferred his brute-force playstyle and center-of-the-blade sweetspot more than those of Marth.

[Snakey]

Wait, so why do people want Roy back in Brawl? I mean the last three FE games starred a new guy, Marth, and Ike, and we know Marth is probably gonna be back, so even assuming they have three FE characters, it makes more sense to have a new guy to hype the new game and Ike since every single match I've played online has been against at least one Ike.

Because Roy was one of the most popular characters in Melee. If Melee had online, you would encountered a Roy player in every online match as well. Also, Ike did not star in any of the last three Fire Emblem games. The last three Fire Emblem games (FE11, FE12, FE13) were starred by Marth, Marth, and Chrome/Krom.

People need to understand that Roy was fired. He ain't coming back.

Wrong. Roy was fully intended to be brought back for Brawl. Sonic's late placement into Brawl made it so that development resources had to be allocated from Mewtwo and Roy to Sonic. Sakurai has gone on the record to say that he had more characters planned, but could not get them in due to time constraints.

Maybe if Roy stayed relevant to FE he could return. But now I don't see why they'd have him over Krom or Ike.

Well there is FE13's DLC which makes all of the lords relevant in some way, and made an appearance in several DLC chapters already. There is also the fact that his DLC for FE13 was released during Golden Week.

I really can't see both Ike and Krom being in Smash 4, especially when the two are similar to one another.

[cednym]

I really can't see both Ike and Krom being in Smash 4, especially when the two are similar to one another.

And this doesn't apply to Roy, Marth's clone?

[Snakey]

And this doesn't apply to Roy, Marth's clone?

I think Roy would stand out more than Ike if Chrome is already in. I mentioned years ago that I could have seen Roy being a "mix" of Marth and Ike if he was in Brawl (that is his moveset is made of up moves from Marth and Ike). The mercenary-style re-design for Roy in FE13 might further help steer Sakurai into this idea. (if he was not thinking of using it for Brawl). Though if Smash 4's roster is only the same size as Brawl's, then I can just see them putting in Marth and Chrome.

[Professor Beef]

Roy IS relevant again you fools!

I didn't know he was in the next Kingdom Hearts game.

[GamerSoul]

As long as Krom has Aether, which I have heard he does have in his game, he'll be Ike in spirit. The average Smash player will dub him " new Ike" and will swarm to him and his godly forward smash. Honestly I think, Sakurai will go to I.Syst. and they'll collaborate on whatever they think is best.

I think the crowd sheer will be the hardest part of their discussions:
Roy's are boy.
We like Ike.
Krom's tha bomb? lulz too 90s

[Snakey]

I didn't know he was in the next Kingdom Hearts game.

The designer for Roy's re-design is the character designer for the Drakengard series and The Last Story, so that might explain the Square-Enix vibe.

[Nocturnowl]

The designer for Roy's re-design is the character designer for the Drakengard series and The Last Story, so that might explain the Square-Enix vibe.

Now you mention it i'm definitely seeing the last story vibe, speaking of which I should really get back to that game at some point.

If Krom really must replace Ike then he better be a good character in FE3DS, my Ike love stems from the series itself even if he is pretty basic character wise.

[Snakey]

As long as Krom has Aether, which I have heard he does have in his game, he'll be Ike in spirit. The average Smash player will dub him " new Ike" and will swarm to him and his godly forward smash. Honestly I think, Sakurai will go to I.Syst. and they'll collaborate on whatever they think is best. I think the crowd sheer will be the hardest part of their discussions: Roy's are boy. We like Ike. Krom's tha bomb? lulz too 90s

I think Sakurai will go to Intelligent Systems again as well for what he should do for FE characters in Smash 4.

However, Krom/Chrome's localization name will remain a mystery until a localization is announced. I have seem the romanization of Krom/Chrome being "Chrome" and even if pronounced as "Chrome", however, Crom is the name of a god from Irish mythology so it could be Crom/Krom. Still, no localization name could ever be as horrible as what happened to Sheeda/Shiida, of which we got "Caeda".

[Heropon]

Still, no localization name could ever be as horrible as what happened to Sheeda/Shiida, of which we got "Caeda".

Caeda? I remember playing Shadow Dragon this Christmas and she was called Shiida, no?

[GamerSoul]

I think Sakurai will go to Intelligent Systems again as well for what he should do for FE characters in Smash 4. However, Krom/Chrome's localization name will remain a mystery until a localization is announced. I have seem the romanization of Krom/Chrome being "Chrome" and even if pronounced as "Chrome", however, Crom is the name of a god from Irish mythology so it could be Crom/Krom. Still, no localization name could ever be as horrible as what happened to Sheeda/Shiida, of which we got "Caeda".

Yeah, especially since there have been a couple games added to the series. And Ah, very true, it'll depend on how they choose to localize it. I usually get stuck with one way of saying it even if it's wrong. Caeda? lol wow.

[Mr. Fix]

As long as Krom has Aether,

Oh, hell no. Aether was a terrible recovery move.

[NeonZ]

As long as Krom has Aether, which I have heard he does have in his game, he'll be Ike in spirit. The average Smash player will dub him " new Ike" and will swarm to him and his godly forward smash. Honestly I think, Sakurai will go to I.Syst. and they'll collaborate on whatever they think is best.

Krom has a skill called "Aether", but it's nothing visually like Ike's, it just shares the gameplay functions (ignore defense/recover health), which weren't used by Smash at all.

[Snakey]

Caeda? I remember playing Shadow Dragon this Christmas and she was called Shiida, no?

The European localization has Sheeda's name as Shiida. The North American localization has her name as the abominable "Caeda".

Oh, hell no. Aether was a terrible recovery move.

Aether was a good recovery move in the context of Ike as a whole. Heck, Sakurai had to remove a projectile special from Ike because he thought it made Ike very unbalanced. I think Eruption most likely came from the scrapped Roy moveset for Brawl after they decided to get rid of Ike's projectile special due to balance issues.

[Professor Beef]

A projectile wouldn't have made Ike broken. Keeping his move speed the way it was before the final version of Brawl might've helped, though.

[GamerSoul]

Oh, hell no. Aether was a terrible recovery move.

It was well compensated by his Side Special and c'mon man it's Ike's Aether. Slayer of Dragons and anything else in attacking distance.

Krom has a skill called "Aether", but it's nothing visually like Ike's, it just shares the gameplay functions (ignore defense/recover health), which weren't used by Smash at all.

Oh ok, thanks for clarifying that for me.

[Jorok Goldblade]

The random icon under Wario is simply a placeholder until Miyamoto's new IP is formally unveiled.

Pretty good roster. The only changes I could see being made would be to add Little Mac and one or two unpredictable Sakurai's whim characters. Other than that, it looks like a pretty safe bet for the final roster.

[KevinCow]

Pretty good roster. The only changes I could see being made would be to add Little Mac and one or two unpredictable Sakurai's whim characters. Other than that, it looks like a pretty safe bet for the final roster.

Why did you quote the entire thing.

Also only 7 new characters would be astoundingly disappointing.

[qq more]

Some dreams/stuff regarding 64, Melee and Brawl for the next Smash - Brawl's amount of content + more - Melee's speed - 64's style of SFX. I really hate Melee's SFX, especially the slash effects. Brawl pretty much nearly captured 64's awesome sounds but it's not there - Brawl's character definition - i.e. only borderline clones, intros in the stage, etc. - mix of Brawl and Melee's air dodge - that is, allow air dodge once, but still allow movement and attack - 64's Classic Mode - Melee's Adventure Mode - 64's Bonus Mode (Board the Platforms!) - Melee's trophy unlock - Brawl's audio. There's something really off on Melee's audio output. Also I prefer Brawl and 64's style of music rather than Melee's music which feels like they're all played with the same set of instruments - Brawl's BGM selection being tweakable and random being tweakable - Brawl's pinball item, which itself is found in 64. Melee's paddle is horrible - L-canceling should be there... but not infinitely usable; see: Guilty Gear X series - progression from Brawl's character aesthetics. I really hate the plastic-y look in Melee (don't give me that they're trophies reason - they become REAL that they lose their trophy-ness) Of course, character tweaks and stuff are there.

They should honestly go with 64's speed. Melee is too fast, Brawl is too slow, 64 is justttt right. ...At least I think so. It's been a while since I last played 64.

[Jorok Goldblade]

Why did you quote the entire thing.

Fixed.

[Nocturnowl]

The European localization has Sheeda's name as Shiida. The North American localization has her name as the abominable "Caeda".

I had no idea of this, I'm sure you're jealous of my superior Shiida copy of the game

Aether was a good recovery move in the context of Ike as a whole. Heck, Sakurai had to remove a projectile special from Ike because he thought it made Ike very unbalanced. I think Eruption most likely came from the scrapped Roy moveset for Brawl after they decided to get rid of Ike's projectile special due to balance issues.

I had no idea of this either, where'd this info crop up from? projectile Ike might have been the Ragnell shock wave which would have been great.

They should honestly go with 64's speed. Melee is too fast, Brawl is too slow, 64 is justttt right. ...At least I think so. It's been a while since I last played 64.

If anything 64 is the one that's too slow and Brawl is just right, but melee is fast enough it makes Brawl seem slow.

[Snakey]

I had no idea of this either, where'd this info crop up from? projectile Ike might have been the Ragnell shock wave which would have been great.

It was from Famitsu.