[(._.)]

mormons? aren't these guys with the prophet from new jersey?

[DECK'ARD]

Can't GAF be positive for once? No? Okay :T This is seriously awesome.

It's not something I expected to see, Obama has started something really good. Like everyone just needed a little nudge in the right direction.

Hopefully it will even cause the UK to stop dragging their feet over the jump from civil partnerships which have been in place for years to full equality. Cameron has been pussying around over the issue, but there's going to be a free-vote on it now in Parliament and it should be passed.

[Bombadil]

ulterior motives

JC Penny had ulterior motives for running ad campaigns with same sex couples.

But what I heard from Neogaf was, "I guess I'll be buying my shirts from JC Penny from now on."

They don't even sell good shirts, dammit.

[Yaboosh]

It's not something I expected to see, Obama has started something really good. Like everyone just needed a little nudge in the right direction. Hopefully it will even cause the UK to stop dragging their feet over the jump from civil partnerships which have been in place for years to full equality. Cameron has been pussying around over the issue, but there's going to be a free-vote on it now in Parliament and it should be passed.

Way too much credit going to Obama here. He was part of the same deluge.

[Bo]

Except that the stance seems to show minimal support at best. These people are Mormon, right? So, at the end of the day they agree with the sentiment that "oh, it's cool if you're gay -- just don't fuck." And that just does all of jack shit, no?

I'd say it's a fair sight better than paying the LGBT community lip service from the comfort of the pulpit, or worse, demonizing them to the cheers and applause of a receptive crowd. Putting foot to pavement and showing solidarity with them on the basis that they're fellow human beings who deserve love and courtesy? I hold nothing but respect for such a move, it's one small step into moderation, acceptance, and even change of views once held in times and places where they were insulated from the people they affected. Far braver than my church of old, which seems content to speak of lesbians, gays, bisexuals, and transgender people as broken men and women "out there somewhere" beyond the church walls, earshot, and any real understanding.

[Balphon]

In the case of, say, a truly debilitating disease, or addiction, we do end up coming to terms with these things without ever reaching acceptance of them, per se. In this case, though, you can't endorse an individual without including the parts that really make them who they are. Our identities as people, sexual, or otherwise -- these come along for the ride. So, the "it's okay to be gay as long as you aren't a practicing gay" (ie: having gay sex, which gay individuals are want to do), you're not opening any doors, or doing any major favors.

Your point is well taken, but from where are you getting that this is the message here? I'm not seeing it.

[Bornstellar]

Granted, I'm speaking very specifically about being LGBT. To say that is a self-destructive habit is asinine, so I don't think that's what you're saying. In the case of, say, a truly debilitating disease, or addiction, we do end up coming to terms with these things without ever reaching acceptance of them, per se. In this case, though, you can't endorse an individual without including the parts that really make them who they are. Our identities as people, sexual, or otherwise -- these come along for the ride. So, the "it's okay to be gay as long as you aren't a practicing gay" (ie: having gay sex, which gay individuals are want to do), you're not opening any doors, or doing any major favors. What's really crazy are the people who are brainwashed to believe there is fundamentally something wrong with them, and they do get "help", get married (to the opposite sex) and end up living a life that doesn't fit who they are. If God is that important to them, go at it. But, really, it's not moral or ethical to ask someone to do that.

I don't feel any different about heterosexual couples having sex out of wedlock. They are practices which are self-destructive from my point of view because my point of view is informed by the idea that the family unit works best under certain conditions and that the primary goal of said unit is to produce children / have joy in those children. I would keep going, but I don't want to delve too deep into theology. The point is, the world is filled with people who practice behaviors which I believe to be incorrect, but that is not the sole basis of my evaluation of them as people. Being wrong on some things does not make you less of a person. In fact, it's a defining attribute of humanity.

[DECK'ARD]

Way too much credit going to Obama here. He was part of the same deluge.

True it's all politics, and politicians react to the public mood.

But an endorsement that high up carries weight and removes planks of disapproval and makes people more likely to voice their support. I wish our politicians had been more vocal and unambiguous about it, especially Cameron. We've been faffing around in the UK about it for too long, once civil partnerships were established which was a good step the conversation stopped.

[Emitan]

I don't care if it's "just politics" if it means I can get married some day.

[jediyoshi]

JC Penny had ulterior motives for running ad campaigns with same sex couples. But what I heard from Neogaf was, "I guess I'll be buying my shirts from JC Penny from now on."

What is the solution in which they wouldn't have ulterior motives?

[Bombadil]

Way too much credit going to Obama here. He was part of the same deluge.

Remember in Back to the Future Part III where the Doc and Marty needed to get the train to go really fast so it could push the DeLorean to 88mph before they both drove off the cliff? And remember how Doc created three logs - 1 green, 1 yellow, and 1 red - to be thrown into the boiler in that order to get the train to put on bursts of speed once each log burned? Well, Obama was the red log, dude. Obama gave us the final push we needed.

What is the solution in which they wouldn't have ulterior motives?

Nothing, I was just pointing out that we shouldn't cynically decry the acts of these Mormons simply because they're religious and probably have an ulterior motive. Just appreciate it and move on.

[DECK'ARD]

I don't feel any different about heterosexual couples having sex out of wedlock. They are practices which are self-destructive from my point of view because my point of view is informed by the idea that the family unit works best under certain conditions and that the primary goal of said unit is to produce children / have joy in those children. I would keep going, but I don't want to delve too deep into theology. The point is, the world is filled with people who practice behaviors which I believe to be incorrect, but that is not the sole basis of my evaluation of them as people. Being wrong on some things does not make you less of a person. In fact, it's a defining attribute of humanity.

Well if you let everyone get married you can have more of those family units, and you don't have to deal with the issue of sex out of wedlock for those people.

And more family units means more kids can have the benefit of that family unit, and a loving environment. Not every couple can have children, but they can all adopt. And we don't have enough families like that, and a lot of kids who would benefit from it. And some people are quite happy without them.

There's lots of definitions of family now, it's the love and support that is there which should define it.

[Raistlin]

Didn't say they did. In fact, since Mormon's reject the fundamental idea of the Trinity, I don't even know if they are Christian. But that's, like, a different topic for a different day.

Actually the point remains

[Bornstellar]

Actually the point remains

With the idea that all are one in purpose being equal, regular Christians believe that the Father, the Son (Christ), and the Holy Ghost are 3 manifestations of the same being. Mormons believe they are 3 separate beings.

[Nevasleep]

Hopefully it will even cause the UK to stop dragging their feet over the jump from civil partnerships which have been in place for years to full equality. Cameron has been pussying around over the issue, but there's going to be a free-vote on it now in Parliament and it should be passed.

Whats the difference between a civil partnership and marriage? Something I should really look up.

[commedieu]

I don't care if it's "just politics" if it means I can get married some day.

Thats how I read everything, and mainly feel. Its not like Lincoln *personally* cared, but it did lead to something good. People just want things to go an unrealistic way, where their ideal needs and acknowledgement needs to be met all at once. Life doesn't work that way. Every head isn't going to be patted during the transition. But progress and positivity is amazing to watch unfold.

Spoo;

Its going to take time. I understand your attitude towards them. But it really has no place in a world where this change is happening right before our eyes. You wouldn't have had an argument yesterday, but now you have to say SO WHAT to 300 mormons that may or may not be fringe. The same people that killed prop8, or at least the same relation, are moving towards actually respecting the civil rights of others, regardless of religious belief. Thats spectacular in my book. As they will surely be shunned by the church at large, however its going to become more and more obvious that the Churches image is one of hate, when they keep making such separations from civil rights of other human beings. Time is going to erode this problem away.

Much like the Too little Too late meme, I feel it stands for the babbling brook of progress simply not being enough for those seeking immediate gratification. I don't think anyone read this thread, or any gay rights news, then thinks that the problem is over. Or that any of this will trickle down to everyone now changing their mind and voting differently. Some, sure. But politics are politics. The community has to get boots on the ground, and money behind them to have change happen. Prop8's anti-ads were 100% false lies about teaching homosexuality in school. Yet the response from the community was hardly heard by anyone. I think the awareness, that these events bring, and money, will make it a whole lot easier for people to not be threatened by it.

I agree with your points, but its just negativity in the face of a tangible good at this point. And that good has been, and is, getting bigger and bigger. As is often posted in these threads, the fight isn't over. And the push has to keep going. These little sign posts along the way are great to see. I'm about to go to bed, I wrote this as best I could atm. But either way, I don't want you to take anything I'm writing as being argumentative.

[Raistlin]

With the idea that all are one in purpose being equal, regular Christians believe that the Father, the Son (Christ), and the Holy Ghost are 3 manifestations of the same being. Mormons believe they are 3 separate beings.

wtf does that have to do with anything ... at all

[DECK'ARD]

Whats the difference between a civil partnership and marriage? Something I should really look up.

Basically the same, but I think there's still a few differences. Plus the option isn't available for heterosexual couples.

So it's very much a same but different thing, and seen as a lesser form of marriage. It was an important step at the time, but that was a long time ago now and the UK really should be better than this and have full equality by now.

[cdyhybrid]

Bravo.

[Bornstellar]

wtf does that have to do with anything ... at all

Dunno.

[Kapura]

see america? Not all mormons suck!

[Spoo]

Actually the point remains

Then I probably missed your point, and I apologize. If it's just to say that "not all people believe such and such" that is located clearly and concisely in their texts, then -- that's just people being selective about their beliefs, which isn't usually a great thing; rather, I'd see it as a red flag if picking and choosing is the only way to make religion work.

Your point is well taken, but from where are you getting that this is the message here? I'm not seeing it.

Fair question -- after all, I'm acting like 1, or all 300 of these individuals stated in writing that they are not, in fact, in a march that has the intention of standing in solidarity with the LGBT community such that all rights are recognized.

But, at the same time, I feel that it is implicitly stated, and should be understood well by all who see this. It is easy to stand in solidarity with a group when you don't understand what that group wants. The Mormons are under the impression that they are disliked because they "hate" gays. This is not the case. I don't believe it, and I'd absolutely bet that those 300 have no hatred towards gays whatsoever.

But, here's the deal. The official, up-top, contemporary standing (be wary! It may change any day!) on homosexuals is this: same-sex attraction is "bad," and that it can and should be controlled. It was an interesting to see that the LDS Church's official "Ensign" magazine, for subscribers, had the front page of "Living with Same-Sex Attraction" very quickly after Obama, et. al., decided they'd chime in. It told the wondrous story of a man who married a woman, but is gay, and how he lives with it.

How he lives with it. See? Like a disease. A sickness. Something to be overcome. The ultimate burden.

And that's just it. I believe that all 300 of these fine people believe that they are standing in solidarity with the LGBT community only insofar as they really, really want you to know that all Mormons don't hate you. It was a big mess up, and all that stuff about Prop. 8 was really just a big old mistake they regret.

Fine. I'll buy that, sure. But you want to talk building bridges, right?

Right. Except a bridge is a bridge, it doesn't go halfway. It doesn't even go 99/100ths of the way. It forms the connection, and makes all this crap a thing of the past. Just like how black people got the Priesthood. God decided one day it was cool, and thus it was! Like light.

But I don't think we're talking about the same kinda bridges, here. Because if you are a member of the LDS church, that says something. That says you believe 1) it is a true Church, 2) its leaders speak through God, and 3) Doing the opposite of what your leaders tell you is doing the opposite of what God tells you.

Keeping all that in mind, it must then be absolutely implicit, that a parade like this is meant to forward the official position of the Church which actually IS that they do not hate gay people. They love gay people. They love the sinner and they hate, hate, hate that thing they do. And that thing they do, unfortunately, is a part of who they are, and how they feel is a part of who they are, and so this "not practicing bit" -- that's where this comes in. You can be gay all you want, you just can't let it MEAN anything.

Because if it did, you'd be the mouse with the cookie. First you want love, you get it. Acceptance, alright, up to a point. Marriage? Whoa, slow down there boy. A temple marriage, against their most sacred laws based on books that say "fuck no" because a God said "fuck no."? See where I'm going?

So, no, walking down the street and saying "I actually am cool with gays" is not the same as saying you fully, 100% are fighting for them, and their rights. Because, being a member of this church means something -- and out of all the things it could mean, I don't think it means you can go out on the street and publicly show solidarity with something the church does NOT want. And they don't want marriage between LGBT. They do, on the other hand, want to NOT look like jackasses after all the things they've done to be them. So send out the 300 stripling warriors to calm our hearts and ease our minds.

But it's not really an ulterior motive. The fact is, most of them just want the LGBT community and them to "be cool" -- but building bridges? That takes more than walking down the street. How about walking down the street with signs that said "Stop supporting anti-gay sentiment with my tithing!"

Why not? We complain about the government when they misuse our money, why not our God?

Oh yeah, because of membership. Because you actually believe the thing you're in, and even if you don't understand it all, you accept it. Because your leaders know best.

But hey, I could be wrong.

[Bornstellar]

How he lives with it. See? Like a disease. A sickness. Something to be overcome. The ultimate burden.

A lot of people on this board surely feel the same way about religion. It comes down to each individual because honestly, it's a war of ideology where everyone thinks they are right.

[Incendiary]

I was raised Mormon. I don't consider myself Mormon anymore, but I'm not an athiest, I'm just anti-religion. My personal beliefs are probably closest to Mormon beliefs out of any church, with obvious differences.

Part of what turned me off to the church was in high school I had gay friends, and I talked to my bishop and basically what he said to me was "Gay people are nice, gay people are fine and you can be friends with them. I have friends outside the church that are gay too. They're just not going to heaven." And my mind couldn't solve the cognitive dissonance required to believe that good people can't go to heaven just because of sexual orientation.

It's good to see some members are reaching out, though. Nice story.

[jdogmoney]

A lot of people on this board surely feel the same way about religion. It comes down to each individual because honestly, it's a war of ideology where everyone thinks they are right.

Tread lightly. Your words could easily be misinterpreted.

[Dreams-Visions]

cool.

[jaxword]

More "Hate the sin, not the sinner" bullshit.

Anyone who has ever said this is a dishonest, two faced liar who has managed to convince themselves of their own lies. It's a good way to weed out someone who you shouldn't listen to or trust, sort of like a mental combover. No one is fooled but they THINK they've got everyone convinced.

[commedieu]

Tread lightly. Your words could easily be misinterpreted.

Outside of some people having the opinion that religion is a disease to be lived with, What else could it possibly mean...?

[MWS Natural]

How could they change their opinions so quickly??

FACT: Mormons now mind controlled by Obama.

[V_Arnold]

Too little too late?

It is never too little to show love. It is never too late to start respecting others.
It does not matter if YOUR belief and "thy neighbor's" belief differs. Accepting it (and accepting the difference, while not invalidating anyone's choice in the process) is the first step for a mature society.

Then I probably missed your point, and I apologize. If it's just to say that "not all people believe such and such" that is located clearly and concisely in their texts, then -- that's just people being selective about their beliefs, which isn't usually a great thing; rather, I'd see it as a red flag if picking and choosing is the only way to make religion work.

Red flag? More like religious text being wildly distorted and manipulated and being outdated as the common knowledge and technological advancements skyrocketed in the past few decades - the advanced, open but yet positive mindset can very quickly determine what should fall off in religious texts easily, yet what can be preserved as message of love.

At the end of the day, everything that says something about how others should behave is usually a message of fear. Upholding yourself to your own standards are one thing. Trying to force others to follow is another.

[cdyhybrid]

It is never too little to show love. It is never too late to start respecting others. It does not matter if YOUR belief and "thy neighbor's" belief differs. Accepting it (and accepting the difference, while not invalidating anyone's choice in the process) is the first step for a mature society.

I think you missed the joke.

[UnluckyKate]

That's free advertising. It's pretty opportunist of theirs

[Trent Strong]

never mind

[V_Arnold]

I think you missed the joke.

I definitely did if that was a reference for something :O
EDIT: I see it now. I only quoted the response, but replied to the one post that he was responding to as well -.-

[Bear]

JC Penny had ulterior motives for running ad campaigns with same sex couples. But what I heard from Neogaf was, "I guess I'll be buying my shirts from JC Penny from now on." They don't even sell good shirts, dammit.

So advertisements selling products is an ulterior motive now?

The only reason anyone was hired to make them was to get attention and sell products. It's about as overt as you can get.

[Cyan]

So send out the 300 stripling warriors to calm our hearts and ease our minds.

Are you saying the Mormon Church did this rather than individual Mormons?

Remember in Back to the Future Part III where the Doc and Marty needed to get the train to go really fast so it could push the DeLorean to 88mph before they both drove off the cliff? And remember how Doc created three logs - 1 green, 1 yellow, and 1 red - to be thrown into the boiler in that order to get the train to put on bursts of speed once each log burned? Well, Obama was the red log, dude. Obama gave us the final push we needed.

I'm not entirely sure I agree, but this is the best metaphor ever.

[ronito]

Like I said in the mormon/exmormon thread I appreciate the gesture but the whole message of "We love you. We're not gonna talk about you having equal rights, but we love you." While nice is ultimately empty and full of cognitive dissonance. A part of me is like "That's great!" but another part of me wonders if a lot of those people in the parade would fight against gay marriage should it come up.

[Escape Goat]

So advertisements selling products is an ulterior motive now? The only reason anyone was hired to make them was to get attention and sell products. It's about as overt as you can get.

:lol

[Sol..]

#toolittletoolate

never gets old.

[Orayn]

It's a nice gesture, but ultimately two-faced when you consider that a good portion of them still vote against gay rights at every opportunity.

[smurfx]

hmm so march along them but give money to things like prop 8 so gay people can't get the same rights they have.

[Orayn]

hmm so march along them but give money to things like prop 8 so gay people can't get the same rights they have.

Shaking hands with their right, backstabbing with their left. Hooray for... Tolerance?

[ronito]

Shaking hands with their right, backstabbing with their left. Hooray for... Tolerance?

To be fair, it's not likely that the people marching in the parade are the ones doing the stabbing.

They just support the hand that does.

[Copernicus]

How you holding up Gaborn?

[Brannon]

It's a step. An infinitesimally small step. And one that is barely better than the "I'M A MORMON" wankfest billboard campaign. And it's still hugely overshadowed by their '08 shenanigans.

But it's a step, maybe. Depends on their sincerity and motives.

[smurfx]

It's a step. An infinitesimally small step. And one that is barely better than the "I'M A MORMON" wankfest billboard campaign. And it's still hugely overshadowed by their '08 shenanigans. But it's a step, maybe. Depends on their sincerity and motives.

i wouldn't be surprised if they are doing this to not seem extreme in the general elections. hell if obama came out in favor of gay marriage then it was probably polling really well. romney would like to not make it an issue in the general election and doesn't want his mormonism to be an issue either. don't be surprised to see them march out as many black mormons as possible so people won't investigate too much into their past treatment of blacks as well.

[Sobriquet]

I was expecting worse from the thread title.

I was pleasantly surprised.

[low-G]

i'm still waiting for the punchline.

When Mormonism turns out to be the one true faith. Laugh along with the universe.

[The Faceless Master]

too much too soon

[Ultima_5]

Good job mormons.

It's really nice reading a thread on GAF pertaining to religion where it's not doing something of complete shit.