[Mael]

Please stop with this bullshit from both sides! Fact: people will borrow money if the interest is too low. If they go into a bigger debt then they should, it's both the fault of those who borrowed and those who lent (and should have done their due dilligence). Stop the blame game, it helps no one. Likewise, the "forced austerity" argument is bullshit too. Fact: if no one lends you money and you can't pay your own shit, you become poorer. It's a bummer, but that's the way it is. If someone is willing to lend you money with conditions, you either accept or you don't. But you don't bitch about it.

Ok, what the hell are you trying to start here with your levelheadedness and reasonableness?
More seriously, total agreement here

[Torraz]

It wasn't Spanish people who caused the housing bubble, it was British, German and French people who did by buying up coastal properties and speculating on price increases. Home ownership among Spanish citizens was pretty static throughout their boom as house prices increased from outside pressure and the Spanish government were unable to control it by increasing interest rates and Frankfurt were looking after German economic interests in a Deutschland über alles kind of way. Spain had very little control over the housing bubble and had basically no say in its inflation or over the crash. That is a direct consequence of the EMU.

Errr. Didn't Spain have to build the houses that were speculated on?

[operon]

It wasn't Spanish people who caused the housing bubble, it was British, German and French people who did by buying up coastal properties and speculating on price increases. Home ownership among Spanish citizens was pretty static throughout their boom as house prices increased from outside pressure and the Spanish government were unable to control it by increasing interest rates and Frankfurt were looking after German economic interests in a Deutschland über alles kind of way. Spain had very little control over the housing bubble and had basically no say in its inflation or over the crash. That is a direct consequence of the EMU.

I'm not putting the total blame on Spain or anyone, but we need to see we're collectivley to blame for this. And surely if Spain wanted to slow down building all they had to do was control planning permission for the developments, you don't need control over interest rates for that

[zomgbbqftw]

Errr. Didn't Spain have to build the houses that were speculated on?

Err, if someone is going to pay you real money to build a house, you build it. You don't say, oh well, no I'm not going to build it and lose the business.

It was the ECB's cheap money policy and the freedom of movement of capital which fucked over Spain. Blaming Spanish people (private borrowing in Spain isn't all that high, in fact it is lower than the UK) or the Spanish government (state borrowing is low and they ran a surplus).

The facts remain that Spain was fucked over by the ECB which was looking after German economic interests. There is no way that the Spanish government could have dealt with the massive capital inflows, it would be like taking a water gun to a forest fire.

[Funky Papa]

Fact: if no one lends you money and you can't pay your own shit, you become poorer. It's a bummer, but that's the way it is. If someone is willing to lend you money with conditions, you either accept or you don't. But you don't bitch about it.

Nobody is asking for free money, is it? What pisses me off is that those conditions could have been grounded in reality, like taking a long hard look at the actual fat bringing the system down and cutting those BS expenses and organisations instead of slashing everything across the board.

I totally agree with this. Spanish situation is completely Spain's fault.

Very much true, but that doesn't mean that operon is right. The average Spaniard wasn't purchasing huge houses; he was paying a fortune for some shitass apartment because in the wise words of one of our former vicepresidents "if they pay those prices it's because they can" (and not because people need a place to live). It's our fault for voting the same gang of idiots and criminals into power every four years.

Edit:

It wasn't Spanish people who caused the housing bubble, it was British, German and French people who did by buying up coastal properties and speculating on price increases.

As a Spaniard, that is not true. British and Germans did drive the housing bubble in the coastal areas, but at the end of the day much of the blame rests in our local councils/regional governments (which financed themselves through land sales) and savings banks. The beauty of the Spanish crisis is that it's incredibly self-contained in terms of responsability.

[Dash27]

Who claimed that? The point is that austherity measures (which are far from recent, they've been carried over the past years) were enacted to heal our ailing economy by cutting spending, and instead of that they are smoothering it. Everything else is poppycock.

Since you're talking about Spain I dont know what to tell you. Spain and Ireland was supposedly within acceptable debt levels. Of course Greece said that too, but lets just assume that's true. Germany took austerity measures and they are doing well, Spain tries and they are being smothered in your words.

Here in the US we had a massive stimulus that did nothing, and the little it did do ended when the money ran out. So one side says austerity and the other says stimulus, neither seem to be obviously working in all cases and of course both sides say more of their cure is needed to work.

In the case of Spain, pretty much the entire crisis is related to the real estate crash and the atrocious mismanagement of the saving banks, which are the ones being bailed out, not the state (although you can guess who's going to foot the bill). Pensions and social programmes have fuck all to do with it.

Pensions and social programs are the bulk of the government obligations so they do indeed have fuck all to do with it. You can argue they are not the cause in the case of Spain, but they are clearly the issue in Greece and they sure cant be helping.

When you rely on borrowing to keep up with your commitments these things tend to bite you in the ass if anything unexpected comes up.

[Phoenician_Viking]

Federal Europe will never work. Too many differences in culture, languages, policies, economies. You can´t make one policy that effect the entire EU, because one country´s needs could be bad for other country´s needs.

Most importantly i can´t for the life of me imagine the EU agreeing on one foreign policy.

[Mael]

Federal Europe will never work. Too many differences in culture, languages, policies, economies. You can´t make one policy that effect the entire EU, because one country´s needs could be bad for other country´s needs. Most importantly i can´t for the life of me imagine the EU agreeing on one foreign policy.

Yeah...no.
There's more than enough countries that are wildly diverse in the EU to say that is in no way a valid reason.
Heck just looking at some of the biggest countries they never were some homogenous land where everyone think the same on most issues.

[zomgbbqftw]

Yeah...no. There's more than enough countries that are wildly diverse in the EU to say that is in no way a valid reason. Heck just looking at some of the biggest countries they never were some homogenous land where everyone think the same on most issues.

Maybe true, but I don't mind my tax being redistributed unevenly across the UK so that poorer regions receive more support and investment from the state, but I would definitely have a problem with the EU redistributing my taxes to countries outside the EU. It's the same reason that Merkel can't get Eurobonds through the Bundestag, German people don't want their hard earned money being frittered away in another country. People have an affinity for their fellow countrymen, but not for outsiders.

[RJT]

Nobody is asking for free money, is it? What pisses me off is that those conditions could have been grounded in reality, like taking a long hard look at the actual fat bringing the system down and cutting those BS expenses and organisations instead of slashing everything across the board.

I agree with you, and it's basically the same for Portugal. But that's our own governments responsibility, not Germany or the EU's responsibility. It come across as asking for free money when you start blaming other countries for it.

[Omegasquash]

Oh, Germany.

[Fritz]

Maybe true, but I don't mind my tax being redistributed unevenly across the UK so that poorer regions receive more support and investment from the state, but I would definitely have a problem with the EU redistributing my taxes to countries outside the EU. It's the same reason that Merkel can't get Eurobonds through the Bundestag, German people don't want their hard earned money being frittered away in another country. People have an affinity for their fellow countrymen, but not for outsiders.

Ask the West Germans going crazy over their money getting pumped into Eastern Germany. Or probably likewise Northern and Southern Italy. What about the US, there are richer states that have to step in for poorer states, aren't there? How does a liberal citizen of New England deal with the voting power of the Bible Belt?

I am just trying to point out that there are examples where those differences have been overcome for the greater good. I believe it is pretty much a matter of time for Europe. But I am with you in that most of Europe certainly isn't there yet.

[Mael]

Maybe true, but I don't mind my tax being redistributed unevenly across the UK so that poorer regions receive more support and investment from the state, but I would definitely have a problem with the EU redistributing my taxes to countries outside the EU. It's the same reason that Merkel can't get Eurobonds through the Bundestag, German people don't want their hard earned money being frittered away in another country. People have an affinity for their fellow countrymen, but not for outsiders.

Totally in agreement here.
It's quite clear that a citizen of a country wouldn't want their hard earned money to be spent on something far away to help people while they still have problems to solve on their own.
Especially if that's only money going 1 way.
I'm not disputing that.
I'm disputing the fact that the countries are so different and have so much history that they would never succeed in having a common policy.
Well that's BS, with the history most of the EU countries have with each others, it's downright miraculous that the notion of EU depute could even exist.
So no that's clearly not reason enough.

Ask the West Germans going crazy over their money getting pumped into Eastern Germany. Or probably likewise Northern and Southern Italy. What about the US, there are richer states that have to step in for poorer states, aren't there? How does a liberal citizen of New England deal with the voting power of the Bible Belt? I am just trying to point out that there are examples where those differences have been overcome for the greater good. I believe it is pretty much a matter of time for Europe. But I am with you in that most of Europe certainly isn't there yet.

Also this.

[zomgbbqftw]

Totally in agreement here. It's quite clear that a citizen of a country wouldn't want their hard earned money to be spent on something far away to help people while they still have problems to solve on their own. Especially if that's only money going 1 way. I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing the fact that the countries are so different and have so much history that they would never succeed in having a common policy. Well that's BS, with the history most of the EU countries have with each others, it's downright miraculous that the notion of EU depute could even exist. So no that's clearly not reason enough. Also this.

There in lies the problem. There are a lot of people in the UK (and other northern EU countries) who resent having to contribute so much to the EU when there are enough problems in this country that need fixing. £10bn a year is pissed away in Europe on agricultural subsidies and "development" in southern countries while we borrow over £100bn a year.

Therein lies the problem, you can't take from one nation to pay for the failures of another one. The rest of Europe would rightly tell the UK to fuck off if we turned around and said we wanted €125bn a year to plug the gap in our state finances, it is our failure and it should be solved by us.

[Funky Papa]

I agree with you, and it's basically the same for Portugal. But that's our own governments responsibility, not Germany or the EU's responsibility. It come across as asking for free money when you start blaming other countries for it.

It's both, actually.

It's the government's responsibility to ensure that said money is going to be invested wisely. That isn't happening nor is going to happen, because our politicians are just plain irresponsible. Most of the fault rests there.

It's also the lender's responsibility, since forcing cuts across the board instead of targeting the real problems (corruption, unnecessary expenses, clientelist networks) will only ensure further misery and delay but not avoid a default (which is what Germany is trying to prevent). Basically, the conditions are terribly misguided, to the point that they'll end bitting the lender in the ass.

[RJT]

There in lies the problem. There are a lot of people in the UK (and other northern EU countries) who resent having to contribute so much to the EU when there are enough problems in this country that need fixing. £10bn a year is pissed away in Europe on agricultural subsidies and "development" in southern countries while we borrow over £100bn a year. Therein lies the problem, you can't take from one nation to pay for the failures of another one. The rest of Europe would rightly tell the UK to fuck off if we turned around and said we wanted €125bn a year to plug the gap in our state finances, it is our failure and it should be solved by us.

You don't take from one nation to pay for the failures of another. You take from one person to pay for the failures of another person. They're called taxes, and they're pretty common.

Anyway, it's clear that even if GAF (which is pretty rational, compared to the norm) can't agree on a European identity, we have absolutely no chance of it happening in real life, and it's best if we ended this European Union thing, so that everyone can get back to their personal problems. We'll probably meet at WW3, for the looks of it...

[Phoenician_Viking]

If you think that Spain, Portugal or Ireland don't want to pay their debts, you are crazy (I won't put Greece there since signals are rather mixed). You also don't seem to know that this crisis has NOTHING to do with "entitlements" (the fuck are those anyway; pensions? a reliable and efficient public health system?). Also, the notion of Germany being held hostage is rather silly considering how Merkel got us into deeper shit by pushing crippling austherity measures that, in case you didn't notice, have come to pass with disastrous results.

Austherity measures is the dumbest thing one could do in an economic crisis.

[Ether_Snake]

Why Germany has been trying to promote austerity:

If unemployment is high, there is little tax revenue. If there is little tax revenue, there is not much spending, unless the countries in question borrowed money to spend in order to boost employment until the economy recovers. This would increase their debt over the short term, but over the long term give the chance to lower unemployment, increase tax revenues, reap inflation, and hence control the growth of debt. The reason austerity is being accepted as a solution is simple, but difficult to accept for many, as we see our western civilization as the cradle of democracy.

The Chinese word for crisis is written with two symbols: one is danger, the other is opportunity.

The current global financial crisis is, as the Chinese would say, a danger-opportunity. Countries that have been placed in a precarious position as a result of the crisis (danger) can be requested by the more fortunate countries to make concessions in order to receive help (opportunity!). The crisis might be global, but it is also a global opportunity for some.

Spain could borrow money and use that money to repair its economy. Repairing one's own economy would eliminate the danger, but without making concessions it would be a missed opportunity for the lender.

Now you can imagine why the EU Troika and its close supporters (IMF, corporations of the Troika nations, Troika's members' personal associates, etc.) is being so insistent on demanding austerity to the EU countries in a precarious position (danger). Demanding austerity in return for loans gives the Troika an opportunity to exercise leverage on the internal governance of the borrowers (cut social services, privatize land, self state-owned companies, and sale of other national assets and elimination or erosion of benefits). This leverage is an indirect interference with national sovereignty, and hence an act against the countries' democratic institutions and an erosion of the national representative nature of the governments. It is a form of economical war, in an age where military invasions are unthinkable. A form of blackmail, often proposed by self-serving politicians within the disadvantaged countries.

The leverage can be used to the benefit of the Troika and its member-allies. This is the nature of the EU of today. Whenever you hear about the European financial crisis, remember how it would sound in Chinese: European financial
danger-opportunity.

Austerity also seeks to keep at bay the usefulness of having national central banks, to promote instead the EU central bank.

To this, let's ask: Cui bono?

[Phoenician_Viking]

Yeah...no. There's more than enough countries that are wildly diverse in the EU to say that is in no way a valid reason. Heck just looking at some of the biggest countries they never were some homogenous land where everyone think the same on most issues.

Maybe you missed the rise of the right wing in Europe. Us Europeans might agree 99% of values, but that does not make people agree to make it federal. Tax systems, foreign policies, defense, internal rivalries between European states. I mean just look at the UK, France and Germany. The UK does not agree about a lot of issues with France and Germany. Besides in a federal state small European countries will be swallowed up with no influence on decision making of any kind. No country will give up that kind of sovereignty to superstate without having some kind of veto power, and having veto powers would cripple such a state because of all the differences.

[RJT]

Why Germany has been trying to promote austerity: If unemployment is high, there is little tax revenue. If there is little tax revenue, there is not much spending, unless the countries in question borrowed money to spend in order to boost employment until the economy recovers. This would increase their debt over the short term, but over the long term give the chance to lower unemployment, increase tax revenues, reap inflation, and hence control the growth of debt. The reason austerity is being accepted as a solution is simple, but difficult to accept for many, as we see our western civilization as the cradle of democracy. The Chinese word for crisis is written with two symbols: one is danger, the other is opportunity. The current global financial crisis is, as the Chinese would say, a danger-opportunity. Countries that have been placed in a precarious position as a result of the crisis (danger) can be requested by the more fortunate countries to make concessions in order to receive help (opportunity!). The crisis might be global, but it is also a global opportunity for some. Spain could borrow money and use that money to repair its economy. Repairing one's own economy would eliminate the danger, but without making concessions it would be a missed opportunity for the lender. Now you can imagine why the EU Troika and its close supporters (IMF, corporations of the Troika nations, Troika's members' personal associates, etc.) is being so insistent on demanding austerity to the EU countries in a precarious position (danger). Demanding austerity in return for loans gives the Troika an opportunity to exercise leverage on the internal governance of the borrowers (cut social services, privatize land, self state-owned companies, and sale of other national assets and elimination or erosion of benefits). This leverage is an indirect interference with national sovereignty, and hence an act against the countries' democratic institutions and an erosion of the national representative nature of the governments. It is a form of economical war, in an age where military invasions are unthinkable. A form of blackmail, often proposed by self-serving politicians within the disadvantaged countries. The leverage can be used to the benefit of the Troika and its member-allies. This is the nature of the EU of today. Whenever you hear about the European financial crisis, remember how it would sound in Chinese: European financial danger-opportunity. Austerity also seeks to keep at bay the usefulness of having national central banks, to promote instead the EU central bank. To this, let's ask: Cui bono?

There is so much bullshit in this post that I don't even know where to start...

Oh wait, I know: The Chinese word for "crisis" (simplified Chinese: 危机; traditional Chinese: 危機; pinyin: wēijī; Wade–Giles: wei-chi) is frequently invoked in motivational speaking along with the statement that the two characters it is composed of represent "danger" and "opportunity." Some Western linguists consider this analysis fallacious, arguing that the character jī alone does not necessarily mean "opportunity."

Just go to google translate: 机 means "Machine", "unit", or "drive".

Opportunity is written 机会.

Link: http://pinyin.info/chinese/crisis.html

[Dash27]

Ask the West Germans going crazy over their money getting pumped into Eastern Germany. Or probably likewise Northern and Southern Italy. What about the US, there are richer states that have to step in for poorer states, aren't there? How does a liberal citizen of New England deal with the voting power of the Bible Belt? I am just trying to point out that there are examples where those differences have been overcome for the greater good. I believe it is pretty much a matter of time for Europe. But I am with you in that most of Europe certainly isn't there yet.

The differences are not overcome from good will, they are mandated by government. It very well could be a matter of generosity and empathy for your fellow man, if the charity and funds supplied were perceived to be put to good use.

This is the case for many things. Here in my state we subsidize many counties that are poorer. You wouldnt mind so much if that money was helping, but it always seems to go down a rat hole and there never seems to be enough.

So that is likely why Germany is asking for austerity, or at least some assurances the money they give will be effective.

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

There is so much bullshit in this post that I don't even know where to start... Oh wait, I know: The Chinese word for "crisis" (simplified Chinese: 危机; traditional Chinese: 危機; pinyin: wēijī; Wade–Giles: wei-chi) is frequently invoked in motivational speaking along with the statement that the two characters it is composed of represent "danger" and "opportunity." Some Western linguists consider this analysis fallacious, arguing that the character jī alone does not necessarily mean "opportunity." Just go to google translate: 机 means "Machine", "unit", or "drive". Opportunity is written 机会. Link: http://pinyin.info/chinese/crisis.html

Its an Ether Snake post. Doesnt matter what the topic is, its always bullshit.

[ElectricBlue187]

To this, let's ask: Cui bono?

The Illuminati, duh!

[Kabouter]

Maybe you missed the rise of the right wing in Europe. Us Europeans might agree 99% of values, but that does not make people agree to make it federal. Tax systems, foreign policies, defense, internal rivalries between European states. I mean just look at the UK, France and Germany. The UK does not agree about a lot of issues with France and Germany. Besides in a federal state small European countries will be swallowed up with no influence on decision making of any kind. No country will give up that kind of sovereignty to superstate without having some kind of veto power, and having veto powers would cripple such a state because of all the differences.

Well, the EU did already harmonize the VAT rules. And they're also working on the Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base. So progress is definitely being made.

[Ether_Snake]

Well, the EU did already harmonize the VAT rules. And they're also working on the Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base. So progress is definitely being made.

They also adopted a common currency.

...

Oh.

[WARCOCK]

I think this is inevitable, if it does not occur now it will happen much later under different historical circumstances and quite possibly from a more desperate and broken situation. The cultural barriers infusing paranoia need to somehow be overcome for this to be accelerated, unfortunately kung fu EU funded commercials are not the answer. There needs to be a breed of politician that will give the public the hard truths they do not want to hear but at the same time give hope that through european solidarity mutual beneficence will occur and endure. I like the two lane solution where a strong core assumes the mantle and other nations can stay in the slow lane whilst they deal with their issues. I'd love to participate in a federal europe, if most of the current values present in western europe are echoed in a future european federation, i would immigrate there from the US if possible.

On a personal side note: Fuck the UK if they don't want in. Huehuehuehue.

[jimi_dini]

Here in the US we had a massive stimulus that did nothing, and the little it did do ended when the money ran out. So one side says austerity and the other says stimulus, neither seem to be obviously working in all cases and of course both sides say more of their cure is needed to work.

There is no cure for our current monetary system (unless you totally break the current currency and replace it with a new one for example). It's built upon dept and compound interest. It just CANT work in the long run.

I simplify it for you: say I'm a bank, you and Funky Papa are my customers. There are no more humans on this planet at all.

You both want to have 100$. Okay, fine. I give you 100$ each, but with 5% yearly interest. Now you can grow seeds or do whatever you want. After one year I want my money back with 5% interest. I gave out 200$ in total.

So now tell me, where are the 5% interest supposed to be coming from? You may produce something that Funky Papa wants and he gives you some of his money for it. That way you could pay it all back including interest, but he won't.

The current system could only work somewhat, if there was unlimited growth, which is not possible.

Getting rid of your dept means that someone else has the dept now. Adding compound interest means the system will go haywire at some point. That's because of exponential growth. And people don't think exponentially.


I mean please try this: Jesus had 10.000EUR at the bank and he got 1.5% interest. Now please try to guess how much money he would have at the bank today thanks to compound interest.
he would have 102.253.222.926.712.700,00 EUR at the bank.

[tino]

They need a EU federation, not a loose confederation. United States of Rome!

[Operations]

Germany should leave the Euro instead. They'll suffer greatly in the beginning, with a new DM greatly appreciated against their Euro-denominated-debt claims, but they can afford it.

Have France bill the ticket for the PIIGS or, alternatively, leave and close down the borders. In either case, the dream is over.

[Phoenician_Viking]

Well, the EU did already harmonize the VAT rules. And they're also working on the Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base. So progress is definitely being made.

http://www.tmf-vat.com/vat/eu-vat-rates.html

There´s some big VAT difference between Spain´s 18% and Denmark´s 25%.

[Fritz]

They need a EU federation, not a loose confederation. United States of Rome!

According to everybody we'll cut it short and head right into the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation 2.0.

I am not approving.

[Tactics]

Germany should leave the Euro instead. They'll suffer greatly in the beginning, with a new DM greatly appreciated against their Euro-denominated-debt claims, but they can afford it.

Even if it made sense for us economically (and I don't have any idea if it does) it wouldn't feel right to just get out of the Euro like that. If the whole system goes down, that's another story. But just getting out now after advocating the Euro all these years would be nothing but a big "fuck you" to the rest of the Euro zone.

[Kabouter]

http://www.tmf-vat.com/vat/eu-vat-rates.html There´s some big VAT difference between Spain´s 18% and Denmark´s 25%.

I think you might be confusing rates with system. Take a look at this

[Flatline]

In the minds of demagogues and Eurosceptics.

Oh come on, have you been paying attention to what has been happening the last few years?

[Mael]

Maybe you missed the rise of the right wing in Europe. Us Europeans might agree 99% of values, but that does not make people agree to make it federal. Tax systems, foreign policies, defense, internal rivalries between European states. I mean just look at the UK, France and Germany. The UK does not agree about a lot of issues with France and Germany. Besides in a federal state small European countries will be swallowed up with no influence on decision making of any kind. No country will give up that kind of sovereignty to superstate without having some kind of veto power, and having veto powers would cripple such a state because of all the differences.

Yeah...again no.
France is pretty much a single country with the same border for close to a thousand year and we've still got strong regional discontent among us for various issues (including and not limited to taxes and the likes).
And on top of that, the union is better at defending the citizen's interest than any individual country, once the europeans will actually see that (if they ever do because god knows we have enough examples showing that) the loss of soverignty will mean absolutely nothing.
At worst it'll mean your local overlord have less power, for the average citizen I don't think that means much.

[Lagspike_exe]

I like how she is finaly admiting of using EU for Germany's expansionist agenda. The only difference is that they're using Euro instead of panzer divisions now.

[IceCold]

Yeah...again no. France is pretty much a single country with the same border for close to a thousand year and we've still got strong regional discontent among us for various issues (including and not limited to taxes and the likes). And on top of that, the union is better at defending the citizen's interest than any individual country, once the europeans will actually see that (if they ever do because god knows we have enough examples showing that) the loss of soverignty will mean absolutely nothing. At worst it'll mean your local overlord have less power, for the average citizen I don't think that means much.

[Winnie the Pimp]

the actual reason we are all in this mess right now is simply because GROWTH has been stagnating for a while now...

capitalism is built on growth, if there is none, the system fails, so of course all these austerity measures are nothing more than SYMPTOM treatment, but they don't take on the actual root of the problem!

we've had phenomenal growth periods in the afteryears of WWII up to 1973, after which it all went slowly but surely downhill with what seems like a culmination these days.

So yeah in essence, the "solution" to this economic crisis is another World War, after which we can then rebuild and get a new economy going again, it's how it works, unfortunately in this nuclear day and age, i fear there won't be anyone left to rebuild :(

[Tideas]

the actual reason we are all in this mess right now is simply because GROWTH has been stagnating for a while now... capitalism is built on growth, if there is none, the system fails, so of course all these austerity measure are nothing more than SYMPTOM treatment, but they don't take on the actual root of the problem! we've had phenomenal growth periods in the afteryears of WWII up to 1973, after which it all went slowly but surely downhill with what seems like a culmination these days. So yeah in essence, the "solution" to this economic crisis is another World War, after which we can then rebuild and get a new economy going again, it's how it works, unfortunately in this nuclear day and age, i fear there won't be anyone left to rebuild :(

makes you wonder how all these other countries are growing them if not Europe...

maybe they should really do just should combine as one to be competitive

[Mael]

Apart from the 100 year war there's not much change going on, and considering the napoleonic wars as change in borders is a bit...
Still kind of make my point actually.

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I like how she is finaly admiting of using EU for Germany's expansionist agenda. The only difference is that they're using Euro instead of panzer divisions now.

I'd like to take the time to thank you for your unique and well thought out insight into this complicated issue. Merkel is probably setting up death camps as we speak.

[Kabouter]

Apart from the 100 year war there's not much change going on, and considering the napoleonic wars as change in borders is a bit... Still kind of make my point actually.

That said, France has grown closer together. Everyone speaks French for one thing ;), and some regional languages have disappeared. In the Calais region, people used to speak Dutch for instance.

[Mael]

That said, France has grown closer together. Everyone speaks French for one thing ;), and some regional languages have disappeared. In the Calais region, people used to speak Dutch for instance.

We all speak French since the beginning of the XXth century when the school became secular institutions.
Before that it was free for all with only the capital talking French or something.
We can thank the anti-clericalism of our forefathers for that actually.
Without public schools only teaching French and totally erazing the local culture, we'd have a multicultural France now.

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Apart from the 100 year war there's not much change going on, and considering the napoleonic wars as change in borders is a bit... Still kind of make my point actually.

The borders changed frequently and rapidly, but that's not relevant to what you were trying to say. A better way to put it would be that the core French region, and the various people's it encompasses, have been together in a single state for most of the last thousand years. The border regions have been playing musical chairs, but that's the same with most other countries too. There isn't a region on Earth that hasn't been subject to drastic population migrations, invasions, occupations and integrations. Cultural unity takes time, and there will always be majority groups and minority groups.

[Mael]

The borders changed frequently and rapidly, but that's not relevant to what you were trying to say. A better way to put it would be that the core French region, and the various people's it encompasses, have been together in a single state for most of the last thousand years. The border regions have been playing musical chairs, but that's the same with most other countries too. There isn't a region on Earth that hasn't been subject to drastic population migrations, invasions, occupations and integrations. Cultural unity takes time, and there will always be majority groups and minority groups.

Totally agreed, and even then the cultural unity of the country only dates as far back as the Revolution strictly speaking (and the Montagnard winning over the Girondins).
Heck people only remember the revolts of the parisians but heck when you consider that there was during the revolution revolts to put the King back in place and all....
And also there was a fully functionnal monarchist party till the end of the XIXth century too, heck the eradication of the church from the education system was by no mean easy too and THAT was a big cultural shift if there ever was one.

[XMonkey]

the actual reason we are all in this mess right now is simply because GROWTH has been stagnating for a while now... capitalism is built on growth, if there is none, the system fails, so of course all these austerity measures are nothing more than SYMPTOM treatment, but they don't take on the actual root of the problem! we've had phenomenal growth periods in the afteryears of WWII up to 1973, after which it all went slowly but surely downhill with what seems like a culmination these days. So yeah in essence, the "solution" to this economic crisis is another World War, after which we can then rebuild and get a new economy going again, it's how it works, unfortunately in this nuclear day and age, i fear there won't be anyone left to rebuild :(

Oh there's growth, it's just going to the people at the very top of the economic ladder (at least in the US).

[Kem0sabe]

The Euro was doomed from the start. You can´t have a common European currency if you don´t have a common European fiscal system and a reliable mechanism to regulate inflation and cash flow in the form of "printing money!" by the European Central Bank.

But of course, there are very few people in positions of power who want a unified tax system, because that would fuck up the various national tax revenues.

Case in point, a car in Portugal costs about half as much as a car in Spain, because of the difference in taxation. If you homogenize taxation between the 2 countries, the Portuguese will be happy because they will probably pay less, but the Spanish will be pissed off because they will probably pay more.

Now in terms of currency, it makes sense that money would cost the sense across a common currency zone like the Eurozone... if the eurozone was capable of either issuing bonds or printing money. But if Portugal borrows at the same rate as Germany, without the moderation of a credit rating cut and higher interest rates, how do you think the typical corrupt and inept portuguese politician would react?

He would go on a public spending spree to favor all his friends companies and bankrupt the state even more...

That leads to my last point... people lie, people are untrustworthy, people are corrupt. For a common currency to work you need a common budgetary system, a central European government to control spending and funnel the money to where it is needed... will that ever happen? dunno, and not without a fight.

[Fritz]

Totally agreed, and even then the cultural unity of the country only dates as far back as the Revolution strictly speaking (and the Montagnard winning over the Girondins). Heck people only remember the revolts of the parisians but heck when you consider that there was during the revolution revolts to put the King back in place and all.... And also there was a fully functionnal monarchist party till the end of the XIXth century too, heck the eradication of the church from the education system was by no mean easy too and THAT was a big cultural shift if there ever was one.

I can also see how the reception of cultural identity is different for someone from the British Isles simply because of geolocial reasons. In continental Europe "culture" is bleeding into one another at the borders everywhere. Just look at Switzerland, Belgium, Alsace, Tirol, Bohemia etc. The list goes on and on, naturally. Cultural identity is no argument against a national, European or even a Global governing body. In the end I can actually see regions and communities in Europe benefitting culturally from a strong European government and weaker national governments. But this is getting almost off topic because the general discussion is heading somewhere completely different.

My last words on this: Local patriotism is really redundant.

[Dash27]

The current system could only work somewhat, if there was unlimited growth, which is not possible.

Unlimited growth I cant say, but since WWII I believe the US has seen ~4% growth on average up and until the year 2000 when it about halved, and now we're looking at something like .5% in the past few years. Does this represent the need for a tweak, or is the entire welfare state model failing?

You certainly cant have growth with low birth rates and high entitlements, money is shuttled from the young to the old and not much is left for development, education, research, innovation.

[Lagspike_exe]

I'd like to take the time to thank you for your unique and well thought out insight into this complicated issue. Merkel is probably setting up death camps as we speak.

Historia est Magistra Vitae. It's quite shocking that some people can't see the same thing coming 3rd time in a row in less than 100 years.