[Green Mamba]

It was Navi making almost every puzzle's solution painfully obvious. Kinda ruins Zelda.

Uh, I have a hard time thinking of even one puzzle Navi ruined. Please name an example.

[richisawesome]

Uh, I have a hard time thinking of even one puzzle Navi ruined. Please name an example.

Just played through OOT 3DS, and Navi only mentioned...maybe at most one or two things throughout the entire adult part of the game pertaining to puzzles/quests. The only one I can think of is when she hints at the hidden walls in the Shadow Temple. That's it.

There's no handholding whatsoever throughout nearly all of OOT.

[kittens]

Uh, I have a hard time thinking of even one puzzle Navi ruined. Please name an example.

Hey look, you can shoot this ladder down.
Hey look, there are cracks here.
Hey look, you can play a song on this emblem on the ground.
Hey look, this thing happened when you did this thing.

She doesn't always say something. Even her turning green (is that the color she give for hints?) ruins a lot of the puzzles. This is based on fuzzy memory, so I might be wrong. I haven't played OoT in four years or so.

[JohnsonUT]

I think Zelda actually does a fairly good job with tutorials for items you acquire in the dungeons. After acquiring an item, there is almost always a related puzzle that needs to be solved to get you out of the room. Then the rest of the dungeon is designed to advance your skills with that item. Perhaps even the dungeons have too much tutorial text, but I cannot seem to recall anything too annoying.


However, in the beginning of the game, the situations and puzzle tutorials are forced and out of place and there is way too much text. Perhaps the start of the next Zelda should drop the player in a dungeon immediately without any weapons or sword. The first few rooms can be the movement tutorial as you solving puzzles by jumping and climbing. The dungeon's item would be a sword and the sword tutorial would be solving the remainder of the dungeon puzzle's.

[Tookay]

Honestly, this sort of stuff is the reason why Nintendo needs to realize that higher production values and voiced dialogue could actually positively impact its gameplay. You walk into a room, somebody (your partner) comments about the game mechanics AS YOU'RE PLAYING. The game wouldn't have to pause and kill the pacing to deliver you info.

[MTMBStudios]

Hey look, you can shoot this ladder down. Hey look, there are cracks here. Hey look, you can play a song on this emblem on the ground. Hey look, this thing happened when you did this thing. She doesn't always say something. Even her turning green (is that the color she give for hints?) ruins a lot of the puzzles. This is based on fuzzy memory, so I might be wrong. I haven't played OoT in four years or so.

The helper characters (Navi, etc) in the 3d Zelda games clam up whenever the designers want something to actually be a puzzle (or are reduced to extremely vague hints). If they tell you X happens when you X then they were probably unable to communicate a gameplay feature naturally enough in gameplay (probably some testers were clueless on something that wasn't intended to be a puzzle) and the helper character becomes the equivalent of a signpost telling you what something does. In practice the helper characters are pretty annoying though, they should honestly axe them.

In general the Zelda games should probably be drastically more difficult, but they really never have been difficult (LTTP and beyond are dead easy especially) so I guess I shouldn't expect it.

[DKHustlin]

speaking about zelda specifgically nintendo has to drop the focus on story and tutorials, they can do that stuff in mario because mario is much more accessible, but when it comes to zelda they should just throw you in the world and let you figure it out like in lttp and those era zeldas. i enjoy the newer zeldas but i think they overkill with the story. i like a lot of the dungeons in new Zeldas but i think they can drop a lot of the fluff, the last thing zelda needs is voice acting and that sort of stuff. if anything, it needs to skip all the story fluff and go extremely light on the tutorial stuff and put that shit back in the manual. i think since zelda is an adventure series it makes more sense to have the player explore all the items he is gven rather than help him baltantly

[Chet Rippo]

This may blow your mind Mr. Miyamoto, but I actually have found the solution to your problem:

The game doesn't really start until you become an adult.

[MTMBStudios]

OoT has an obnoxiously slow start (just like the rest of the 3d games) as well, it is no goal post to look at for sure.

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I played OoA/OoS for the first time last summer, and I didn't remember any cumbersome tutorials.

Great games, btw.

[gumby_trucker]

I don't even know what they're trying to achieve in a Zelda game anymore..
In a Mario game, no matter how complex the move set may be, there is always a crystal clear objective. On top of this, most Mario games aren't open world. They are segmented into discrete goals so the mechanics and tools can be introduced exactly when they are needed.

If you think about what they did in Skyward Sword, they effectively tried breaking up Zelda's overworld into smaller, separate "playgrounds", which is a design idea I believe they borrowed from Mario. They still tried to make it feel open, which is why I guess they settled for a middle ground between "collect star" and "find the hidden mountain pass using the scent of a rare fish".

It's kind of a double-edged sword from a design point of view. If you want to have an open world game, with more than one way to handle any given situation, you need to give the player the tools beforehand.

[Anteo]

This may blow your mind Mr. Miyamoto, but I actually have found the solution to your problem:

Yeah! we need another game with 3 tutorial dungeons!

[Oblivion]

Kotaku been asking the right questions lately.

That's cause they got Totilo, who's always been a pretty good game journalist.

[Oblivion]

The game doesn't really start until you become an adult.

Agreed, but you could technically say the same thing for LttP.

[Dynamite Ringo Matsuri]

One of the reasons I stopped playing JRPGs.

Oh man... This so much. I haven't stopped playing them, but every time a game like FF segues to some long ass text laden segment explaining some complex mechanics or menu tutorial my eyes just want to glaze over. I've never had much of an issue with the slow starts with Zelda games, but it'd be nice if there was a skip button. And actually the game's tendency to remind you what some item is EVERY SINGLE TIME you pick it up is annoying as fuck. They need to do away with that entirely

[Cymbal Head]

Hindsight. You know that, but to someone who has never played a Zelda none of this is nearly as obvious as you think.

Agreed here. I played OoT for the first time on 3DS, and I frequently had no boinking clue how to progress.

[Chet Rippo]

Agreed, but you could technically say the same thing for LttP.

But at least those beginning dungeons had substance unlike OoT's kid dungeons. Hell the Deku Tree teaches you how to open doors for crying out loud.

[Oblivion]

But at least those beginning dungeons had substance unlike OoT's kid dungeons. Hell the Deku Tree teaches you how to open doors for crying out loud.

lol what?

I LOVE LttP (my fav 2D Zelda game) but the first three dungeons (especially the Eastern palace) are absolute jokes.

[Zekes!]

In terms of beginning of the game tutorials, instead of some box coming up asking "HAVE YOU PLAYED THIS GAME BEFORE?" like some people are suggesting, I rather have something like an obstacle course or a small area you need to complete that runs you through the basics (with out the use of text boxes) but if you already know how to play, you're able to run through it and clear it with out much disruption, maybe even taking a slightly different and harder path through.

[bomma_man]

This may blow your mind Mr. Miyamoto, but I actually have found the solution to your problem:

The oot intro isn't great. Just because you can skip most of it doesn't make it a good tutorial, it just means that they realised it was a pain in the arse. The only 3d Zelda that's done it well is MM, where it doesn't let you into the game proper until you've mastered the deku shrub mechanics, but I think they assumed that game was going to be played exclusively by oot veterans anyway, so there was no need for a lengthy tute.

[mantidor]

OoT had the advantage of being the first 3D Zelda and one of the very first 3D adventure games with very well implemented 3D mechanics, for our standards as Zelda veterans the OoT intro should be just as boring and excessively long as is any of the other Zeldas intros, what happens is that Nintendo never makes Zelda games for us in specific, they make them for everyone.

[Lunar15]

Look, if you're gonna teach everything at the beginning in a tutorial, at least make it through something that feels like I'm progressing and furthering the story. Not just fooling around in some town.

ALTTP started off with infiltrating a dang castle. Do something like that, and throw the tutorial in there. Just something to make it feel quicker and more important instead of waiting to tell the story and move things along until AFTER the tutorial is over.

The worst part of SS (a game I loved, by the way) was that you finished all the tutorials on skyloft, and it wasn't TOO bad of a pace, but then you landed in the forest and there was a crap ton of tutorials all over again. It ruined the pace immensely.

[Tookay]

Agreed here. I played OoT for the first time on 3DS, and I frequently had no boinking clue how to progress.

I think the super hardcore people here lose sight of that.

Not that these tutorials have to be as long as they are (there are ways to streamline them), but Zelda logic takes some time to convey. It's not a standardized type of thinking or playing, like an FPS. And the big games come once maybe every 5 years, enough time for a whole new crop of people to play them. It's important to keep them in mind.

[LAUGHTREY]

You can teach anything to the player just by putting a road block ahead of them that forces them to figure out a new mechanic. Megaman X was perfect in doing this in the first stage. Suddenly you plummet to the ground and can't get up. Well, now you get to sit there until you discover wall jumping. Alternatively, good games give you a new mechanism in the environment in a non-hostile situation first so you can play with it and learn before having to use it where it counts. What game mechanic do you think cannot be presented in this way? What was so different about the original Zelda game, where you had to figure out that bombs blow up walls, candles burn bushes, you need a raft to cross water, etc.? People figured all that out just fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM

Referring to this video right?

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I thought Super Mario Galaxy 2 handled this excellently. As soon as you start a new file the game puts you into what is technically a tutorial, but you already have full control of Mario and can mess around with all this abilities without any fear of doing something wrong. More games should take this approach - create a sort of "free area" at the start of the game. Oh, and: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM

Holy shit that video couldn't be more unbearable if it tried. And it's stupid as hell to compare thinks from nes when you had 2 buttons you could used compared to controller layouts now.

[Dinosaur]

Yeah. It's curious how Nintendo can't replicate that balance and easy-yet-deep game design of the Mario games for the Zelda franchise. They really ought to take a good look at the entire weapon, item usage and health system for the next Zelda. Or maybe let Koizumi give it a shot.

Fuck yes.

but to address the other thing you said, I think Nintendo truly knows what they're doing with 3D Mario more than any developer knows what they're doing with their games. They just seem to get nearly everything right, all the way back to Mario 64 (ignore Sunshine...). Hopefully they get Zelda right but don't expect the competency you see in Mario.

[Anth0ny]

Yeah! we need another game with 3 tutorial dungeons!

The game doesn't really start until you become an adult.

If the game doesn't start until you become an adult, then Twilight Princess never started. Jabu Jabu's Belly was harder than every TP dungeon and most of SS's dungeons.

Even still, I'd rather have played three "tutorial dungeons" before the game starts than... herd a bunch of sheep? Fly a bird?

The oot intro isn't great. Just because you can skip most of it doesn't make it a good tutorial, it just means that they realised it was a pain in the arse. The only 3d Zelda that's done it well is MM, where it doesn't let you into the game proper until you've mastered the deku shrub mechanics, but I think they assumed that game was going to be played exclusively by oot veterans anyway, so there was no need for a lengthy tute.

By definition, that does make it a good tutorial. Beginners can use it to learn the basics, and veterans can skip the entire thing.

MM definitely has the best intro of any 3D Zelda.

Agreed here. I played OoT for the first time on 3DS, and I frequently had no boinking clue how to progress.

Navi? Saria's song? Not sure how you can possibly get lost unless you aren't reading the dialogue in the game. If so, you're pretty much a lost cause.

[chickdigger802]

tutorials weren't the issue with SS. The stupid sword spirit ballerina thing... sigh.

You give me unskippable useless info, but don't actually have any useful info when I'm stuck?

[MrCunningham]

The infantilizing in Skyward Sword is ridiculous. Instead of simply telling me what to do I hope the next Zelda companion will offer to actually do everything for me so that I can finally put the controller down and enjoy the game without worrying about the possibility of failing.

I'd like to the the opposite and have Zelda go back to the roots of the first game. Just drop Link off in the middle of nowhere with no tutorials, weapons or items, and let the player figure out what to do next on their own.

[The Lamp]

Yes, and it's confusing me greatly. They've come a long way the past year or so.

That's because Totilo's now in charge, and he was one of, if not the only, competent journalists on the site when it happened.

[Holy Wars]

tutorials weren't the issue with SS. The stupid sword spirit ballerina thing... sigh. You give me unskippable useless info, but don't actually have any useful info when I'm stuck?

*watch 10 second cutscene where a door ends up opening*
Fi: "hey, that door opened, maybe we should go there!"

[SpokkX]

Skyward Sword was nearly ruined by the constant interruptions from FI.

Still, a great game but it could have been so much more. Have no wish to replay it because of the unending tutorials

I have no such issues with Ocarina of Time... it started go bad in Twilight princess. It feels like Nintendo just assumes the player is an idiot

[mclem]

Then in other instances, some NPC tells me to do something and she jumps out and repeats the exact same damn thing over, I mean, WTH? I just heard it!

From reading the Iwata Asks translations... is that a Japanese thing? They seem to often reiterate and summarise what they've just spoken about.

I don't know what came first... people's inability to read manuals or game company's inability to write manuals. But, at the end of the day, the in-game tutorials are now the manuals. While saying "you can figure it out by just fooling around" may work when your controller is a D-pad, some gestures, and four buttons, when your controller has 13 buttons, or, better yet, 104... you may have to give folks more of a clue.

One game that's struck me as interesting in that regard is Wario Ware; very simple controls, but I'm the only person I know who was able to dive straight into it. Everyone else has been a bit rabbit-in-the-headlights at the sheer pace of it, since you've got to make an analysis of what's going on in just a few seconds.

Yeah but that doesn't really make much sense...learning what controls are is the same experience for everyone regardless of how "skilled" they are at a game. Well, not to say the learning curve is the same but if you take a game like SS where the control scheme hasn't been in any games before, regardless of how experienced you are you won't be able to pick up some of the more gesture based moves like the shield bash without someone telling you or...spending tons of times wondering what movement initiated it.

I've played through Tales of Vesperia. I'm currently about two-thirds of the way through Tales of the Abyss. I still have absolutely no idea how to initiate a Mystic Arte. I've done a few, I've read the in-game text describing it, but what I want is an environment in which I can experiment and learn how to do it without having to wait for a limited resource to charge up beforehand.

In SS that happens for treasures and bugs the 1st time you boot up the game. Which is ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure that was a bug. It's *so* inconsistent with what happened in prior games - and with little to no benefit - that I find it very hard to believe it's deliberate.

[dark10x]

I'm glad to see that they are thinking about the issue. This issue really spun out of control with Skyward Sword resulting in a very sluggish first few hours. This tedium actually drove me to stop playing for months at a time, in fact.

What I would like to see is another game which dares to drop the player in an interesting world and allow them to begin exploring right off the bat. Allow them to learn the ropes naturally rather than attempting to explain everything with paragraphs of text. The sense of exploration that Zelda once offered has all but disappeared in recent years. With the more powerful WiiU hardware on the cusp of release hopefully they will begin to consider a larger world not unlike that of A Link to the Past or even Link's Awakening.

Ocarina of Time, as good as it may be, began the trend of interrupting Link's morning as he goes about his daily routine. The theme of an isolated village full of people wondering what's beyond the forest/sea/clouds/etc has grown old.

I LOVE LttP (my fav 2D Zelda game) but the first three dungeons (especially the Eastern palace) are absolute jokes.

I disagree. They were fairly easy, of course, but the game never guided you through them. They never resorted to pages of text to illustrate a point, rather, they allowed you to discover how the game worked through playing. Furthermore the game allowed you to explore the overworld as you pleased early on leaving you with an inaccessible path.