[Tideas]

And the Senate was kind of a big fuck up.

what? Name one time in past time that the Senate is a fuck up, besides modern day Senate, or more like Barack Obama presidency Senate.

Don't correlate 4 years of Senates with 300 years of history

[xbhaskarx]

Why is that? Because their organization has the word "Muslim" in it?

Yes that's it, it's because we're all biased against any organization that has the word "Muslim" in it, it has absolutely nothing to do with their platform or beliefs....

Apparently the Muslim Brotherhood's credo is "Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope." Probably not a good sign.

[Matt]

You are twisting my words, first of all I was not talking about your example of african american opression. That issues had many different facets where in effect they where majority, they were denied rights to vote etc. If the real majority had power in those areas from the start, issues likes segregation would not have been allowed.

Dude, what are you talking about? Only three southern states ever had a black majority population, and after the 1930s none of them did.

[xbhaskarx]

Anyway, you see it more and more these days that Muslim countries are voting in Islam based political parties. (also the PJD in Morocco for example) Whereas the West is becoming more and more godless, I see Muslims the world over growing closer and closer to their religion. They are fed up with corruption, scandals, debauchery, inequality, injustice in their countries so they vote in parties who will rule based on their most holy book, the Quran, to set things straight.

Yeah that has worked out sooo well everywhere it has been tried...

[Matt]

what? Name one time in past time that the Senate is a fuck up, besides modern day Senate, or more like Barack Obama presidency Senate. Don't correlate 4 years of Senates with 300 years of history

The Senate is inherently a flawed institution that made a lot more sense at the creation of the nation then it does today. But certainly the last few years have highlighted this fact.

[Jburton]

Dude, what are you talking about? Only three southern states ever had a black majority population, and after the 1930s none of them did.

Was that due to the black population moving North to escape the oppression?

[Jburton]

Yeah that has worked out sooo well everywhere it has been tried...

I suppose it comes down to the fact that all systems are flawed, and to push one on to a group of people is to push its failings on to them also.

[Matt]

Was that due to the black population moving North to escape the oppression?

Those three states loosing their black majority? Yes. But again that was only three.

[Glass Rebel]

Intervention from outside entities would aggravate the regions and cause more deaths than otherwise. See: Afghanistan Iraq Syria Bosnia Yugoslavia Kosovo Chechnya

Please shut up about stuff you clearly don't know.

[Jburton]

Those three states loosing their black majority? Yes. But again that was only three.

Pardon my ignorance.

[goomba]

Seems like this may be like the Gaza democratic election where Hamas won but were denied power because outside forces claimed "the wrong party won". or some say it's "the wrong sort of democracy" lol pure cognitive dissonance .

[Bento]

Seems like this may be like the Gaza democratic election where Hamas won but were denied power because outside forces claimed "the wrong party won". Lol or some call it "the wrong sort of democracy" lol pure cognitive dissonance .

This is a tad different from that since it's not a foreign power (Israel and the US) stepping in but the military junta of Egypt. So this is more of a domestic matter then the one in Palestine. Regardless, hope the vote is respected by the military.

[Jburton]

Seems like this may be like the Gaza democratic election where Hamas won but were denied power because outside forces claimed "the wrong party won". or some say it's "the wrong sort of democracy" lol pure cognitive dissonance .

Its Bullshit, right?

[Matt]

Pardon my ignorance.

I just really don't get what your point is. When people in the west speak of democracy, they are talking about American-style constitutional republics (or similar) whereas the rights of minorities are protected from the will of majorities by outlined principals and laws that cannot be overturned by simple votes. So it's not that we're complaining about what the result of democracy on these nations is, we're complaining that they are, well, just not doing "democracy" right at all.

[ssoass]

...Only if a country were actually ruled by the Quran (or basically any holy book), it would be hell on earth.

I believe that is up for discussion... some of the countries where the Quran plays a heavy role in rule making are Qatar, the U.A.E., Oman, etc. and those aren't exactly hell on earth... they are some of the most well off countries in the world actually.

Of course there are also countries like Saudi Arabia where they are very strict, but it is down to your point of view whether that is a bad thing or not... I'm sure if you asked your average Saudi Arabian citizens if they are happy with the strict interpretation of the Quran, many if not most of them will say yes.

are you arguing that current countries right now that's ruled from the Quran is free of corruption, scandals, debauchery, inequality, injustice?

No definitely not... countries like Afghanistan, Iran, and Pakistan are obviously rife with problems... I was more talking from the perspective of the country's citizens.

I do feel that political parties rooted in Islam could do good in the Muslim world.

Morocco's PJD and Tunisia's Ennahda are ones to watch to see "Islamist" politics in action.

[Jburton]

I just really don't get what your point is. When people in the west speak of democracy, they are talking about American-style constitutional republics (or similar) whereas the rights of minorities are protected from the will of majorities by outlined principals and laws that cannot be overturned by simple votes. So it's not that we're complaining about what the result of democracy on these nations is, we're complaining that they are, well, just not doing "democracy" right at all.

I would not consider western democracy to be American Style, democracy was around a long time before America.

It is usually America pushing its style of democracy down the throats of foreign people (Afghanistan & Iraq) but in this instance I don't think America had anything to do with it.


So what you are saying is American democracy is the right one and everything else is wrong?

Personally I wouldn't touch American style "democracy" ....... a system where laws are made for the lobbyists and not the people, a place with still massive amounts of inequality etc.

It is by no means perfect nor right, just another spin on the system which has massive amounts of faults .... like they all do.

[Matt]

I believe that is up for discussion... some of the countries where the Quran plays a heavy role in rule making are Qatar, the U.A.E., Oman, etc. and those aren't exactly hell on earth... they are some of the most well off countries in the world actually. Of course there are also countries like Saudi Arabia where they are very strict, but it is down to your point of view whether that is a bad thing or not... I'm sure if you asked your average Saudi Arabian citizens if they are happy with the strict interpretation of the Quran, many if not most of them will say yes. No definitely not... countries like Afghanistan, Iran, and Pakistan are obviously rife with problems... I was more talking from the perspective of the country's citizens. I do feel that political parties rooted in Islam could do good in the Muslim world. Morocco's PJD and Tunisia's Ennahda are ones to watch to see "Islamist" politics in action.

Woman in Saudi Arabia can't drive cars man. There is no defense of that that is remotely reasonable.

[Matt]

I would not consider western democracy to be American Style, democracy was around a long time before America. It is usually America pushing its style of democracy down the throats of foreign people (Afghanistan & Iraq) but in this instance I don't think America had anything to do with it. So what you are saying is American democracy is the right one and everything else is wrong? Personally I wouldn't touch American style "democracy" ....... a system where laws are made for the lobbyists and not the people, a place with still massive amounts of inequality etc. It is by no means perfect nor right, just another spin on the system which has massive amounts of faults .... like they all do.

Call it American style or constitutional republic or parliamentary republic or whatever, that wasn't the point I was making. The name isn't important, all I am saying is that when people in the west refer to democracy, they aren't generally talking about a system where the majority can vote away the rights of a minority.

You're right that that isn't a democracy at all. It's a Republic. But, language sucks, what can you do.

[amrihua]

Better than having Ahmed Shafiq who is really the old regime in a new suit. As long as the new president keeps his religion to himself it should be alright. Need to sort out the military's power grab though.

[goomba]

Better than having Ahmed Shafiq who is really the old regime in a new suit. As long as the new president keeps his religion to himself it should be alright. Need to sort out the military's power grab though.

Agreed but israel and the US are not happy. Mubarak was a key Ally of israel and the US , a fact that's completly downplayed by the western media. When Egypt disposed of the Mubarak regime , they also disposed of their relationship to the US and Israel.

[amrihua]

Agreed but israel and the US are not happy. Mubarak was a key Ally of israel and the US , a fact that's completly downplayed by the western media. When Egypt disposed of the Mubarak regime , they also disposed of their relationship to the US and Israel.

It is a pity the West does't really care about human rights and social justice. Else they won't be supporting/installing dictatorships.

[theignoramus]

...Only if a country were actually ruled by the Quran (or basically any holy book), it would be hell on earth.

I dunno man, Qataris have it pretty well off.

[Enco]

Woman in Saudi Arabia can't drive cars man. There is no defense of that that is remotely reasonable.

Saudi Arabia is a joke.

Even other Islamic areas see it as ridiculous.

[SmokyDave]

I dunno man, Qataris have it pretty well off.

I suspect that has more to do with rivers of oil than any book.

[Matt]

I dunno man, Qataris have it pretty well off.

Because of wealth unrelated to their religion. And to say Qatar "rules by the Quran" is being very, very generous.

[goomba]

Saudi Arabia is a joke. Even other Islamic areas see it as ridiculous.

THIS , also happens to be where the majority of the 9/11 attackers came from , why is the US friends with them ?

[Typhoon_Ex]

THIS , also happens to be where the majority of the 9/11 attackers came from , why is the US friends with them ?

Oil, also because they are a client state and do what the US wants them to.

[goomba]

Oil, also because they are a client state and do what the US wants them to.

Exactly the US should end their corrupt relationship with the Saudi regime just as Russia / China should end theirs with Syria.

[spiderman123]

Not for long

[el retorno]

Seems like this may be like the Gaza democratic election where Hamas won but were denied power because outside forces claimed "the wrong party won". or some say it's "the wrong sort of democracy" lol pure cognitive dissonance .

They had a vote. They don't have a democracy. The two aren't equal.
We'll see how the country is governed but I have a feeling the new boss is the same as the old with god playing a bigger part. A democracy can't be religiously based because it favors one group above the others.

Elements considered essential to democracy include freedom of political expression, freedom of speech, and freedom of the press, so that citizens are adequately informed and able to vote according to their own best interests as they see them. The term "democracy" is often used as shorthand for liberal democracy, which may include elements such as political pluralism; equality before the law; the right to petition elected officials for redress of grievances; due process; civil liberties; human rights; and elements of civil society outside the government.

Something tells me egypt won't become turkey.

Agreed but israel and the US are not happy. Mubarak was a key Ally of israel and the US , a fact that's completly downplayed by the western media. When Egypt disposed of the Mubarak regime , they also disposed of their relationship to the US and Israel.

Did you watch ANY coverage of the uprising last year? Cause your lying through your teeth if you say that is was "completly downplayed".

[amrihua]

Woman in Saudi Arabia can't drive cars man. There is no defense of that that is remotely reasonable.

Islam in Saudi Arabia is used as means of suppression and to give the ruling monarchy some legitimacy, and it is a very crude and offbeat interpretation of it. Saudi Arabia shouldn't be looked at as what Islamic rule results in, that said, any rule by a holey book is bound to result in injustice and bigotry.

[Matt]

Islam in Saudi Arabia is used as means of suppression and to give the ruling monarchy some legitimacy, and it is a very crude and offbeat interpretation of it. Saudi Arabia shouldn't be looked at as what Islamic rule results in, that said, any rule by a holey book is bound to result in injustice and bigotry.

So...we agree completely? I was responding to his statement that Islamic rule in Saudi Arabia is debatably a good thing. It's not.

[theignoramus]

Because of wealth unrelated to their religion. And to say Qatar "rules by the Quran" is being very, very generous.

dude, it's wahhabi Islam. The Emir of Qatar himself is a Wahabist. It's just a softer, more tolerant version than SA's.
But that's not the point, the point is that there are conservative Muslim states that defy your claims about Islamist societies being living hells.

[el retorno]

dude, it's wahhabi Islam. The Emir of Qatar himself is a Wahabist. It's just a softer, more tolerant version than SA's. But that's not the point, the point is that there are conservative Muslim states that defy your claims about Islamist societies being living hells.

Being rich doesn't mean its not a living hell for some people. I'm guessing most people in the world would rather live in a Western Democracy than Qatar if they don't share their religious views.

[Matt]

dude, it's wahhabi Islam. The Emir of Qatar himself is a Wahabist. It's just a softer, more tolerant version than SA's. But that's not the point, the point is that there are conservative Muslim states that defy your claims about Islamist societies being living hells.

I never said Islamist societies would be living hells, I said that any state using the Quran as the strict source of law would be a living hell. Just as a state that livid under the Bible would be.

[Speedymanic]

The military were never going to give up power, so this is a win/win situation for them.

International community won't be demanding the give up power any tome soon. Heads if the military must be estatic about the result.

[Hix]

dude, it's wahhabi Islam. The Emir of Qatar himself is a Wahabist. It's just a softer, more tolerant version than SA's. But that's not the point, the point is that there are conservative Muslim states that defy your claims about Islamist societies being living hells.

It's far from perfect though.

Still I think his point was about Shari'a law rather than Islamic societies. The Muslim Brotherhood's first and most central aim (as can be seen on their website) is the institution of Shari'a law in all aspects of jurisdiction.

[Binabik15]

Lets say this is a natural result of the growing pains of a democracy and wait a year or two before getting the bombers ready, hmkay?

[Bombadil]

Please shut up about stuff you clearly don't know.

Read a book, fool. Read a fucking book.

[Nesotenso]

isn't the other candidate Shafiq a former Mubarak ally ?

edit: yup, served in air force and was aviation minister under him.
anyway

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/spo...158653237.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/spo...346893797.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/spotlight/egypt/