[TheYanger]

Throwing my hat in for B5. It's such a good show, and it sucks that it's so hard to get people into, the first season is PAINFULLY bad, yet trying to play catch-up with all of the subtle building it does is too much of a loss as well imo. It's obvious why JMS wrote basically the entire show after that, S1 is just your standard star trek alien of the week type show, with B or even C plots that are moving the meta plot along without you even realizing it until near the end of the season...makes for a very frustrating viewing experience at times (and I don't necessarily blame all of the writers, you can't just plant JMS' vision into your head writing an episode, so they hit the story beats that they need to and then the rest is a mishmash of bad and really bad). I don't see how S1 can be considered for 'good battles' though. it barely has any and the CG is REALLY rough in the first season. S4 has some great ones imo, though obviously S3 is best in that regard.

Also, Crusade isn't THAT bad, you just have to acceptthat it never got off the ground, for only a few establishing episodes it grows on you. The theme song was total trash though (music part was good. The "WHERE ARE YOU GOING" bullshit at the start is so corny and amateurishly awful though).

[En Ex]

People keep talking about how rough B5 S1 is. I handled S1 of TNG pretty darn well; would that mean I could handle the former alright?

[benjipwns]

People keep talking about how rough B5 S1 is. I handled S1 of TNG pretty darn well; would that mean I could handle the former alright?

TNG's first season was basically setting the path for all these other sci-fi shows, so you won't run into most of the issues it had.

Although few of the series mentioned had anywhere near the budgets Trek got.

[SpoonyBard]

I don't see how S1 can be considered for 'good battles' though. it barely has any and the CG is REALLY rough in the first season. S4 has some great ones imo, though obviously S3 is best in that regard.

And The Sky Full of Stars from the first season alone was much better than most of the more chaotic battles in later seasons. Sometimes less is more. I'd also argue that the "mostly black with some blue nebulae" backgrounds look better than the multi cloured mess they had on later seasons. And the explosions also got worse, but I think it was because they didn't have enough rendering time to do more complex explosions. There were just too many of them. If I remember correctly, Severed Dreams from season 3 was where they started simplifying the explosions...

Of course textured and lighting got better in later seasons, but they shouldn't have sacrified realism just to get more ships on screen at the same time...

edit: ok, maybe it was mainly season 4 where they had the messy looking space battles. I can't remember what happened in which episode all that well any longer.

[LakeEarth]

People keep talking about how rough B5 S1 is. I handled S1 of TNG pretty darn well; would that mean I could handle the former alright?

You should be okay, but it's all setup. The show really takes off season 2.

[Magilla]

Halfway through season 3 rewatch of DS9. Gotdamn is there a better character than Garak?! It has been a long time since my first watch. I'm really hating Bashir. He just seems so unlike any of the other characters. Everyone else has flaws or interesting back stories. With him it is just "arrogance". It isn't a humanizing flaw. It just makes him a chore. /shrug

[benjipwns]

Halfway through season 3 rewatch of DS9. Gotdamn is there a better character than Garak?!

Doesn't need the season, no, there isn't.

[Henchmen21]

Space: Above and Beyond. I loved the hell out of this show, and while it only got one season, if I remember correctly it is thankfully largely self-contained. The dark atmosphere, the setting, the budget and some excellent sci-fi story-lines really set it apart, imo. Can anyone back me up on this, or is nostalgia clouding my judgement?

Yup. It was probably the closest thing to a Wing Commander TV show we were ever going to get (that crappy cartoon notwithstanding).

[maharg]

TNG's first season was basically setting the path for all these other sci-fi shows, so you won't run into most of the issues it had. Although few of the series mentioned had anywhere near the budgets Trek got.

This is definitely something to keep in mind when watching any non-trek show from the 90s. Before ST:TNG, it was thought that space operas were dead. And then after ST:TNG finally picked up steam it was still thought that they were dead, just that Star Trek was an exception.

So shows like B5, S:AAB, and even the shows made in Roddenberry's name after he died (Andromeda and Earth: Final Conflict) had painfully low budgets because they were perceived as extremely risky. It meant they had to use CG before CG was really ready (TNG was still using models almost exclusively), so most of them have effects that look only a little above a good looking Dreamcast game.

On that note, Andromeda and E:FC both had pretty good runs early on, but got retooled into shit later on. Same with SeaQuest: DSV. Of all the SF shows that ran for more than a couple of seasons in that era, I think B5 is the only one that maintained its integrity all the way through, and even it wound up getting screwed by questions of whether or not it would have a fifth season.

[Htown]

Watch them in the order they came out. I don't think it makes sense to skip any, even 5 and Nemesis have their moments, and Insurrection is basically just a two-part TNG episode. Enteprise is worth watching if you have seen Voyager already. The first two seasons are kind of boring, there aren't many really weak episodes, but then there's nothing really impressive either. Season 3 has the quite interesting season long plot, that is as good as the long DS9 plots. Could be better, but Trek has never been about the long plot lines.... Season 4 is the fan service season, and in my opinion it's the closest thing to classic TOS/TNG spisodes we ever got. Well worth seeing.

I don't understand why they improved so much over season 3 and 4, and screwed up the very endings to those seasons both times. The old show runners interfering in the finales with bad ideas because they could, maybe?

[firehawk12]

Maybe I'm a crazy asshole, but I would have liked that a lot. Maybe not end it on him, but wrap up his little story right before the closing shot. A lot of people would think that it invalidates all of Star Trek, but I don't really see why it would; each fiction is as real as the other. Benny's just as real as Star Trek is, in my opinion.

I think it would have been an interesting payoff, given how Benny was worked into the season 6 finale/season 7 premiere. I'm sure it would have been way too high concept for Star Trek though.

[En Ex]

Alright, thanks for the answers. I'll add B5 to my list of SF shows to check out.

[BorkBork]

Wrote something on my blog that's Star Trek related, thought I would share:

Star Trek's Finest: The Inner Light

[antonz]

They put up a new example of before and after of remastering of TNG and it is impressive though they left a flaw from original in it still heh.

Before:

After:

Bonus Shot:

[Escape Goat]

Hey, that ship almost looks like its in scale. You mean every ship wasn't a perspective shot making itlook like every ship was comparable in size to Ent-D?!

[Henchmen21]

What ep is that from? Season 2 or 3?

Also, found this (even though it's like 4 years old) while searching for some star trek stuff off youtube. Some guys home movie of when he went to Monteray Bay while they were just happening to film IV there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq_Pd8DoqKA

[Rinoa]

Another one was just uploaded to their facebook

Before

After

take all of my money.jpg

[Tim the Wiz]

Halfway through S3 of DS9, too. Beginning to get very good, indeed. First time I've watched it since falling in love with the re-runs back when I was kid in the late 90s/early 00s. How awesome is it to find out that your nostalgia is not only correct, but also not fully appreciative of the actual quality.

[Htown]

Hey, that ship almost looks like its in scale. You mean every ship wasn't a perspective shot making itlook like every ship was comparable in size to Ent-D?!

THAT'S what was bothering me so much about those ship scenes! I don't know why I didn't think of that before. The Galaxy was supposed to be fucking huge but everything they came across was also big!

[CarbonatedFalcon]

Been thinking about making a LTTP thread, but since this one popped up:

Pretty much watched all of Voyager recently. Mostly pick and choose rather than straight through, but I ended up seeing most every episode. I liked Voyager quite a bit. 7 of 9 is way better than Kes so the latter seasons end up being a lot better than the early ones aside from choice episodes. Doctor is great, but I loved him before from Stargate.

Currently on DS9. Kind of more hit or miss, but I'm only on the first season, nearing the end.

Dax is awesome, Bashir is entertaining. Armin Shimmerman is interesting to watch after seeing him in Buffy. The pilot episode was pretty damn weak though.

[Sephiroth503]

Been thinking about making a LTTP thread, but since this one popped up: Pretty much watched all of Voyager recently. Mostly pick and choose rather than straight through, but I ended up seeing most every episode. I liked Voyager quite a bit. 7 of 9 is way better than Kes so the latter seasons end up being a lot better than the early ones aside from choice episodes. Doctor is great, but I loved him before from Stargate. Currently on DS9. Kind of more hit or miss, but I'm only on the first season, nearing the end. Dax is awesome, Bashir is entertaining. Armin Shimmerman is interesting to watch after seeing him in Buffy. The pilot episode was pretty damn weak though.

Stick with DS9, it puts Voyager to shame in the character department and does a better job of having an overall grander (i.e. continuous) plot

[SniperHunter]

Stick with DS9, it puts Voyager to shame in the character department and does a better job of having an overall grander (i.e. continuous) plot

yeah DS9 is the best. I don't like the captain that much in DS9 (his acting was more miss than hit) but the rest of the cast really awesome. Jadzia is beautiful, the doctor is a pervert, Garrack was just brilliant and the Quark vs Odo stuff was simply hilarious. I loved DS9 so much! :D

The domnion war saga was really impressive as well, great characters for that one.

[BorkBork]

Been thinking about making a LTTP thread, but since this one popped up: Pretty much watched all of Voyager recently. Mostly pick and choose rather than straight through, but I ended up seeing most every episode. I liked Voyager quite a bit. 7 of 9 is way better than Kes so the latter seasons end up being a lot better than the early ones aside from choice episodes. Doctor is great, but I loved him before from Stargate. Currently on DS9. Kind of more hit or miss, but I'm only on the first season, nearing the end. Dax is awesome, Bashir is entertaining. Armin Shimmerman is interesting to watch after seeing him in Buffy. The pilot episode was pretty damn weak though.

I think the DS9 pilot was probably the best one out of all the series. Juggled character introduction and interaction with plot pretty well.

[Winnie the Pimp]

Just watched the Captains and while the beginning was pretty meh, it ended well and i liked it overall... made me feel pretty nostalgic about the whole thing but it also made me realize i REALLY want to rewatch DS9 as i didn't give it the proper attention it deserves the first time through!

I noticed there seem to be only crappy boxsets out there on amazon except ONE which is like 700 bucks no thanks...

Will it ever be on BluRay?

[thetrin]

As someone in the SA Star Trek thread said, "In my mind, Voyager is a training simulation, and the only way to get an A+ is to pull a phaser on Janeway when she tries to make a boneheaded decision."

[Sir_Crocodile]

As someone in the SA Star Trek thread said, "In my mind, Voyager is a training simulation, and the only way to get an A+ is to pull a phaser on Janeway when she tries to make a boneheaded decision."

So she doesn't make it through "Caretaker" then.

[thetrin]

So she doesn't make it through "Caretaker" then.

Essentially, everyone failed the test.

[CarbonatedFalcon]

yeah DS9 is the best. I don't like the captain that much in DS9 (his acting was more miss than hit) but the rest of the cast really awesome. Jadzia is beautiful, the doctor is a pervert, Garrack was just brilliant and the Quark vs Odo stuff was simply hilarious. I loved DS9 so much! :D The domnion war saga was really impressive as well, great characters for that one.

Yeah I just started Season 2 and got through the opening 3 episode arc for that. Pretty good stuff. Still skipped a couple episodes that seemed like duds from Season 1, but I read the plots on Memory-Alpha. Jadzia really is attractive and Quark vs. Odo stuff definitely is great. Sisko reminds me of someone I know, so I like him a little more than I would otherwise, but he's definitely pretty boring compared to Janeway or Picard.

I think the DS9 pilot was probably the best one out of all the series. Juggled character introduction and interaction with plot pretty well.

I'd have to watch the other pilots again now to compare. The DS9 pilot wasn't necessarily bad, but it wasn't the type of plotline that was compelling to me.

So she doesn't make it through "Caretaker" then.

Hah. Yeah, Janeway doesn't make the best tactical decisions, but the thing I've noticed is that all the captains are pretty much the same character anyway.

[Magilla]

JFC. Just watched Episode 2 of season 4: Visitor. This is why a rewatch can be so good some times. My father died a few years back and this episode hit me like a ton of bricks. It obviously didn't have the same impact the first time I saw it. I probably wrote it off as "boring". Damn.

[GameplayWhore]

the thing I've noticed is that all the captains are pretty much the same character anyway.

Wow, I have the exact opposite opinion. Hell, even the same captains are pretty dramatically different at different times. TV Picard is more Romeo whereas film Picard is more Rambo. Early Kirk is Mr. Fisticuffs with a side of optimistic philosophy while late Kirk is mopey and introspective. Younger Dad Sisko is pretty damned different from Older Hawk Asskicker Sisko. You pretty much nailed it on Janeway and Archer, but they didn't really focus much on developing most characters in the latter shows.


And don't get me started on 2009 Kirk…



edit: "Romeo" as in "Prone to soliloquoy and exaggerated hand motions and emotions a la theatre", not as in young stupid guy who kills himself over a crush.

[lunarworks]

Wow, I have the exact opposite opinion. Hell, even the same captains are pretty dramatically different at different times. TV Picard is more Romeo whereas film Picard is more Rambo. Early Kirk is Mr. Fisticuffs with a side of optimistic philosophy while late Kirk is mopey and introspective. Younger Dad Sisko is pretty damned different from Older Hawk Asskicker Sisko. You pretty much nailed it on Janeway and Archer, but they didn't really focus much on developing most characters in the latter shows. And don't get me started on 2009 Kirk… edit: "Romeo" as in "Prone to soliloquoy and exaggerated hand motions and emotions a la theatre", not as in young stupid guy who kills himself over a crush.

You can't pull in enough at the box office on nerds alone. They had to make some... "alterations" in order to make it more appealing to the mass market.

As for Sisko's personality, all those years on DS9 would definitely change a man.

[Gray Man]

I have something that has been bothering me...

Why did people hate Enterprise so much? I thought Enterprise was really good, its one of the first Star Trek shows that got me into Trek as much as I am now...

[DrForester]

I have something that has been bothering me... Why did people hate Enterprise so much? I thought Enterprise was really good, its one of the first Star Trek shows that got me into Trek as much as I am now...

Bad stories, really unlikeable characters, "These are the Voyages..." , and "A Night in Sickbay".

[Rash]

Alright, thanks for the answers. I'll add B5 to my list of SF shows to check out.

About a year after I watched DS9, I started watching Babylon 5. Right now I'm in the 5th season and yeah, you should check the show out. While it takes place on a space station, it's handled entirely different than DS9 (or any Trek show, for that manner).

Well, maybe I shouldn't say that. The first season, to me, wasn't as rough as people make it out to be, but it's semi-serial in a Trek sort of way and it's quality ranges between the best of TNG Season 1 and the best of TNG Season 2, so mostly lower-tier in the grand scheme of the show, but still entirely watchable. After finishing Season 1, B5 is hard to recommend, but by Season 3 it's an easy recommendation because the leap in quality and the buildup are really noticeable and keep you engaged.

S1 is all setup, so you have to be patient. I approached it the same way I did with DS9, just sitting back and taking in the setting and characters. Seasons 2-4 are mostly serial and involve a lot of great character arcs and payoffs. Keep your eye out for the characters of Londo and G'kar, because their arc in particular is very satisfying. I haven't finished Season 5 (only 8 episodes in), but I'm accepting it as what it is. Feels like a return to the semi-serial ways of Season 1, but with better quality production. I don't mind it, but some people don't care for it. Then again, I hear the second half is way better than the first.

So yeah, in my experience with B5, it's every bit as worth it as Star Trek shows like DS9 and TNG, which I heavily enjoyed.

Oh god, I totally forgot B5. Now there's a show that's a puzzle. Do you start with the TNT prequel movie, which spoils everything but provides context for the first couple of seasons, or do you start with The Gathering, which sets the pieces but has nearly an entirely different cast, or what?

I'm going to be honest and say...I actually skipped The Gathering and jumped right in with Season 1 Episode 1. Didn't really hurt the experience, since I would eventually gather the important plot points later on.

[BattleMonkey]

Bad stories, really unlikeable characters, "These are the Voyages..." , and "A Night in Sickbay".

Was better than Voyager still :P

[Htown]

Was better than Voyager still :P

Word.

I'll take Enterprise over Voyager any day of the week.

[dogmaan]

I have something that has been bothering me... Why did people hate Enterprise so much? I thought Enterprise was really good, its one of the first Star Trek shows that got me into Trek as much as I am now...

That FUCKING theme tune.

[CarbonatedFalcon]

Wow, I have the exact opposite opinion. Hell, even the same captains are pretty dramatically different at different times. TV Picard is more Romeo whereas film Picard is more Rambo. Early Kirk is Mr. Fisticuffs with a side of optimistic philosophy while late Kirk is mopey and introspective. Younger Dad Sisko is pretty damned different from Older Hawk Asskicker Sisko. You pretty much nailed it on Janeway and Archer, but they didn't really focus much on developing most characters in the latter shows. And don't get me started on 2009 Kirk… edit: "Romeo" as in "Prone to soliloquoy and exaggerated hand motions and emotions a la theatre", not as in young stupid guy who kills himself over a crush.

I should clarify. (Note that I never/haven't watched much of TOS.) While they sometimes do have dramatically different personalities, interests, and quirks, I feel like the way they all react to situations is very similar. Maybe it's just that they're all captains (same position) and have the Starfleet training that would all be the same/similar. They all tend to take a very diplomatic route - there's hardly anything they do that could be considered "bad" and rarely anything that's in the grey area except for the occasional juke/staring contest episode.

[Escape Goat]

That FUCKING theme tune.

Its been a loooong road getting from here to there!!

[Wheeljack539]

That FUCKING theme tune.

Never saw it coming, but I feel like I'm the only one who not only liked it but loved it.

I don't get the hate.

[Captain Ganz]

I should clarify. (Note that I never/haven't watched much of TOS.) While they sometimes do have dramatically different personalities, interests, and quirks, I feel like the way they all react to situations is very similar. Maybe it's just that they're all captains (same position) and have the Starfleet training that would all be the same/similar. They all tend to take a very diplomatic route - there's hardly anything they do that could be considered "bad" and rarely anything that's in the grey area except for the occasional juke/staring contest episode.

How much of DS9 have you seen? I would argue that towards the end of DS9 Sisko's philosophy was nearly the polar opposite of someone like picard. Sisko does some crazily questionable shit as DS9 goes on.

[CarbonatedFalcon]

How much of DS9 have you seen? I would argue that towards the end of DS9 Sisko's philosophy was nearly the polar opposite of someone like picard. Sisko does some crazily questionable shit as DS9 goes on.

I'm only at the start of Season 2, so if he does change dramatically, I've yet to see it.

And another thing: The DS9 Title Credits + Music are kinda ass compared to Voyager and TNG. I don't know what the consensus is, but that's my opinion. I skip the intros 99% of the time though except for the start of a new season though, just to check if anything changed. Interestingly enough, Star Trek isn't a show that ever really did that (changing the credits.)

[maharg]

I'm only at the start of Season 2, so if he does change dramatically, I've yet to see it. And another thing: The DS9 Title Credits + Music are kinda ass compared to Voyager and TNG. I don't know what the consensus is, but that's my opinion. I skip the intros 99% of the time though except for the start of a new season though, just to check if anything changed. Interestingly enough, Star Trek isn't a show that ever really did that (changing the credits.)

Voyager and DS9 both have incredibly boring and tired intros music. As much as Faith of the Heart was a stupid choice for Enterprise, I at least give them credit for trying something different.

[GameplayWhore]

Never saw it coming, but I feel like I'm the only one who not only liked it but loved it. I don't get the hate.

The theme to "Star Trek: Enterprise" rather succinctly describes what the show should have been. I also have absolutely no problem with it and in fact think that it's pretty snappy. And it helps that the previous three shows were really getting samey after what was initially a pretty stark departure to the more vocalized (at least initially) Classic Trek series theme.

I think that people didn't like that it was apparently a pop song. I don't really follow popular culture much, so it was the first time I'd heard it.

I'm only at the start of Season 2, so if he does change dramatically, I've yet to see it. And another thing: The DS9 Title Credits + Music are kinda ass compared to Voyager and TNG. I don't know what the consensus is, but that's my opinion. I skip the intros 99% of the time though except for the start of a new season though, just to check if anything changed. Interestingly enough, Star Trek isn't a show that ever really did that (changing the credits.)

He does some pretty big dick moves. In vague but spoilery terms: He becomes an close accessory to the assassination of a Federation ally, and he made a planet's atmosphere uninhabitable to people who were basically the good guys essentially just to prove a point. Basically, that scene when he punches Q? That's what Sisko becomes. Distilled bad-ass.



edit:

SF Debris occasionally has some really good insight as to the faults of each of the Star Trek series. He does a good job of putting things in perspective as to certain fundamental issues with both Voyager and Enterprise. I wish I knew which particular episodes to point you to, though, because mostly he just does bad impressions of Janeway's voice, and it's just now and then that he really goes into heavy detail on his concerns.

[lunarworks]

I have something that has been bothering me... Why did people hate Enterprise so much? I thought Enterprise was really good, its one of the first Star Trek shows that got me into Trek as much as I am now...

I didn't mind Enterprise. It was waaaay better than Voyager.

[Gray Man]

Bad stories, really unlikeable characters, "These are the Voyages..." , and "A Night in Sickbay".

You thought the characters were unlikeable? How in gods name can you hate Trip, or Dr. Flox :(.

Now the ending was bad, but they got canceled and probably panicked, I don't blame them. One episode really makes you hate the series that much ?

[isny]

You thought the characters were unlikeable? How in gods name can you hate Trip, or Dr. Flox :(. Now the ending was bad, but they got canceled and probably panicked, I don't blame them. One episode really makes you hate the series that much ?

The whole last season or two were great. The stuff with Andorians and the Nazi stuff were great. All of the mirror universe episodes were great as well.

[Gray Man]

The whole last season or two were great. The stuff with Andorians and the Nazi stuff were great. All of the mirror universe episodes were great as well.

I really liked first episode as well, Broken Bow. Shame that temporal stuff went no where.

[DrForester]

SF Debris occasionally has some really good insight as to the faults of each of the Star Trek series. He does a good job of putting things in perspective as to certain fundamental issues with both Voyager and Enterprise. I wish I knew which particular episodes to point you to, though, because mostly he just does bad impressions of Janeway's voice, and it's just now and then that he really goes into heavy detail on his concerns.

Few of his best reviews for Enterprise and Voyager that go into things would be...

Caretaker - All the things wrong with the show are here and keep going...

Also recommend his Voyager Q Episode Reviews.
Death Wish, The Q And The Grey, Q2


Voyager: The Thaw - Shows that he will give Voyager credit when it does well.

Enterpise: Dear Doctor
Enterprise: A Night In Sickbay




Good Voyager Vs. DS9 Set. Looking and comparing DS9 and Voyagers 30th anniversary episodes. There's a 2nd video below both of these comparing the two.

Voyager: Flashback
DS9: Trials and Tribbleations

Also recommend the following review for just being totally hilarious at times.
Voyager: One
DS9: The Siege of AR-588

[isny]

Few of his best reviews for Enterprise and Voyager that go into things would be... Caretaker - All the things wrong with the show are here and keep going... Also recommend his Voyager Q Episode Reviews. Death Wish, The Q And The Grey, Q2 Voyager: The Thaw - Shows that he will give Voyager credit when it does well. Enterpise: Dear Doctor Enterprise: A Night In Sickbay Good Voyager Vs. DS9 Set. Looking and comparing DS9 and Voyagers 30th anniversary episodes. There's a 2nd video below both of these comparing the two. Voyager: Flashback DS9: Trials and Tribbleations Also recommend the following review for just being totally hilarious at times. Voyager: One DS9: The Siege of AR-588

Most of the Doctor Voyager episodes were great. (Not the ones involving him singing...but the ones where he takes charge/command) Those and the Q episodes were definitely stand outs. I also enjoyed all of the time travel episodes that involved the timeship.