[phosphor112]

It would be great, we were expecting the normal HDD models to come down before we knew there was another redesign, $199 is what I would have assumed before we knew there was a 16gb model that was going to arrive too. Would be great for them to reach a $150 price point, and hopefully make upgrading with a HDD easy for those that want to.

I'm thinking 150-200-250.

Though, I think they should just do two SKUs... not 3... Sony has a problem with making 5000 thousand different SKUs. How many Bravias do they have? Lol.

[StevieP]

Can anyone tell me how powerful is the cpu in this apu package?are we talking high-end i5 power here,above that or less?

Depends on the CPU inside the APU.

If it's Steamroller, yeah they're going to be almost comparable to the mid-to-mid-high intel solution of the time.

If they're Jaguars they are more akin to Intel Atom/Bobcat/IBM 47x/etc. Netbook stuff in other words.

[Canis lupus]

Depends on the CPU inside the APU. If it's Steamroller, yeah they're going to be almost comparable to the mid-to-mid-high intel solution of the time. If they're Jaguars they are more akin to Intel Atom/Bobcat/IBM 47x/etc. Netbook stuff in other words.

Netbook stuff in a console with a 10 year life cycle is horrific. It should atleast have a cpu comparable to i5 2500k.

[StevieP]

Netbook stuff in a console with a 10 year life cycle is horrific. It should atleast have a cpu comparable to i5 2500k.

Or perhaps the design paradigm is a bit different to your regular home PC, and the intended silicon budget is spent elsewhere (i.e. GPU) for a reason?

This "10 year lifecycle" business is one of the worst terms to come out of Sony in regards to the video game business. Will some of these consoles sell for 10 years? Yeah, but Sony's going to be taping up its replacement (or just implement PS5 via cloud client software) 6 or 7 years after this console releases. Waiting too long for a product refresh is actually *bad* for the industry.

[Melchiah]

Or perhaps the design paradigm is a bit different to your regular home PC, and the intended silicon budget is spent elsewhere (i.e. GPU) for a reason? This "10 year lifecycle" business is one of the worst terms to come out of Sony in regards to the video game business. Will some of these consoles sell for 10 years? Yeah, but Sony's going to be taping up its replacement (or just implement PS5 via cloud client software) 6 or 7 years after this console releases. Waiting too long for a product refresh is actually *bad* for the industry.

That's what the "10 year lifecycle" meant, just like with PS2.

[StevieP]

That's what the "10 year lifecycle" meant, just like with PS2.

And nobody was concerned past year 5 or 6 that the PS2 could not hold its own visually in comparison to the HD consoles or PCs. The PS3 is also not going to have as much (or anywhere near, imo) the massive sell-through that the PS2 had in its afterlife.

[Melchiah]

And nobody was concerned past year 5 or 6 that the PS2 could not hold its own visually in comparison to the HD consoles or PCs. The PS3 is also not going to have as much (or anywhere near, imo) the massive sell-through that the PS2 had in its afterlife.

Still, the "10 year lifecycle" never meant, that Sony wouldn't release another console during it. Some people just wanted to make it seem that way during the system wars in the beginning of this generation.

[StevieP]

Still, the "10 year lifecycle" never meant, that Sony wouldn't release another console during it. Some people just wanted to make it seem that way during the system wars in the beginning of this generation.

That was the point. "10 year lifecycle" doesn't mean anything in regards to a product refresh that brings the next system up to spec. Realistically, think of a 5-7 year product cycle as your baseline for hardware.

[Melchiah]

That was the point. "10 year lifecycle" doesn't mean anything in regards to a product refresh that brings the next system up to spec. Realistically, think of a 5-7 year product cycle as your baseline for hardware.

Now we're on the same page. =) I think five years is too short personally. The PS3 came just about the right time as far as I'm concerned, as there were still some big titles coming to PS2 later in its life; RE4, FFXII, GoWII, and the same applies to PS3.

[mrklaw]

Or perhaps the design paradigm is a bit different to your regular home PC, and the intended silicon budget is spent elsewhere (i.e. GPU) for a reason? This "10 year lifecycle" business is one of the worst terms to come out of Sony in regards to the video game business. Will some of these consoles sell for 10 years? Yeah, but Sony's going to be taping up its replacement (or just implement PS5 via cloud client software) 6 or 7 years after this console releases. Waiting too long for a product refresh is actually *bad* for the industry.

Is GPGPU stuff powerful and flexible enough that you could use a GPU for the things SPEs do now?

And is steamroller out at all? I thought all the AMD APUs were pretty low powered, with a promise of better things to come

[onQ123]

And nobody was concerned past year 5 or 6 that the PS2 could not hold its own visually in comparison to the HD consoles or PCs. The PS3 is also not going to have as much (or anywhere near, imo) the massive sell-through that the PS2 had in its afterlife.

I think PS3 & Xbox 360 can make it to 100 million

could all 3 Consoles (Wii ,PS3 ,360 ) make it over the 100 million mark?


I'm sticking to it. & if they don't make it it will only be short of about 10 million at the most.

[Manmademan]

I think PS3 & Xbox 360 can make it to 100 million could all 3 Consoles (Wii ,PS3 ,360 ) make it over the 100 million mark? I'm sticking to it. & if they don't make it it will only be short of about 10 million at the most.

Oh yeah. Ps3 and 360 will sell a truckload when they hit $99.

[Gemüsepizza]

Maybe this was already posted, but I just realised that they could use the same 16 GB flash storage in the new PS3 and PS4.

Edit: I wonder if there will be a PS4 model without HDD, if they have integrated flash storage. This way they could save a lot of money and would have more flexibility regarding future price cuts. They will probably have a faster Blu-ray drive than the PS3 for streaming.

[phosphor112]

Maybe this was already posted, but I just realised that they could (and probably will) use the same 16 GB flash storage in the new PS3 and PS4.

Hmmm... yes... mass producing stuff like that would work well.

EDIT: It would also be fantastic if they had that 1PPU 4SPE modules being used in the PS3 Super Slim to reduce costs AND to put it in the PS4 for audio... or BC.. whatever. More mass production... less costs involved.

[Ramblin]

Oh yeah. Ps3 and 360 will sell a truckload when they hit $99.

if

[onQ123]

Maybe this was already posted, but I just realised that they could (and probably will) use the same 16 GB flash storage in the new PS3 and PS4.

That's what I said but I just can't remember where I said it.

but I don't think we will get to use the 16GB of flash in the PS4 for storage it might be just like the 4GB of flash in the PlayStation Vita that no one knew about.

[phosphor112]

That's what I said but I just can't remember where I said it. but I don't think we will get to use the 16GB of flash in the PS4 for storage it might be just like the 4GB of flash in the PlayStation Vita that no one knew about.

That'll be exactly what it's for. Multi-tasking. Can keep boat loads of stuff in that storage space too...

[ekim]

I just got confirmed from someone working for ubisoft, that watch_dogs will(!) be released on nextgen consoles. In addition it was added that the game will be released earliest 2013. So I assume it is slated as a launch title for nextbox/ps4 - so we can be sure one of them will be out 2013. Nothing really shocking here though.

[Übermatik]

I just got confirmed from someone working for ubisoft, that watch_dogs will(!) be released on nextgen consoles. In addition it was added that the game will be released earliest 2013. So I assume it is slated as a launch title for nextbox/ps4 - so we can be sure one of them will be out 2013. Nothing really shocking here though.

Wii U

I kid, I kid... or do I?

[RoboPlato]

I just got confirmed from someone working for ubisoft, that watch_dogs will(!) be released on nextgen consoles. In addition it was added that the game will be released earliest 2013. So I assume it is slated as a launch title for nextbox/ps4 - so we can be sure one of them will be out 2013. Nothing really shocking here though.

Not surprising but good to hear. I hope that if Sony releases later than MS that the won't be as big of a gap in the early months' libraries. Hopefully Ubi, EA, Activision, etc port everything over even if it is a few months later.

[Graphics Horse]

That's what I said but I just can't remember where I said it. but I don't think we will get to use the 16GB of flash in the PS4 for storage it might be just like the 4GB of flash in the PlayStation Vita that no one knew about.

Probably.

But if they can afford to launch a PS4 with a small (32-64GB) amount of solid state storage, they probably will. It wasn't feasible when the PS3 launched needing mandatory HDD space, but PS4 could be a different kettle of bananas.

[phosphor112]

Wii U I kid, I kid... or do I?

I don't see why it wouldn't be on Wii U. Sure.. I don't like calling it "next gen" because of the lack of a significant power jump... but it is "next gen."

[ekim]

Wii U I kid, I kid... or do I?

Well... I will ask him. :p

[Übermatik]

I don't see why it wouldn't be on Wii U. Sure.. I don't like calling it "next gen" because of the lack of a significant power jump... but it is "next gen."

Yeah, this is pretty much my point. It is nixt-gen. There's no denying that. But power-wise, whether it's what we expect from next-gen or not is another matter. I do hope it makes an appearance - will soften the blow of the inevitability that is Sony/Microsoft's superiority in power come 2013.

Well... I will ask him. :p

Do that! :)

[Glorified G]

I just got confirmed from someone working for ubisoft, that watch_dogs will(!) be released on nextgen consoles. In addition it was added that the game will be released earliest 2013. So I assume it is slated as a launch title for nextbox/ps4 - so we can be sure one of them will be out 2013. Nothing really shocking here though.

I hope the 720/ps4 versions look just as good as the e3 build.

I don't see why it wouldn't be on Wii U. Sure.. I don't like calling it "next gen" because of the lack of a significant power jump... but it is "next gen."

If it's coming out for 360/ps3, can't see why it wouldn't be available for the Wii U also.

[jeff_rigby]

CoWoS is the process to be used by TSMC to assemble the overflow that AMD's Global Foundry can't handle in next generation SOC (PS4 and probably Xbox720)

CoWoS is an integrated process technology that attaches device silicon chips to a wafer through a chip on wafer (CoW) bonding process. The CoW chip is attached to the substrate (CoW-On-Substrate) to form the final component. By attaching the device silicon to the original thick wafer silicon before it finishes the fabrication process, manufacturing-induced warping is avoided. TSMC plans to offer CoWoS as a turnkey manufacturing service. “Heterogeneous 3D ICs are one of the innovations enabling the industry’s move beyond Moore’s Law by stacking various technologies within a single device, including analog, logic and memory.” Another point is that this test vehicle should really only be classed as a 2.5D IC, because it involves a number of die being attached to a silicon interposer, which is in turn attached to the package substrate using Thru Silicon Via (TSV) technology. A true 3D IC involves die being stacked on top of other die (see also The challenges of 2.5D versus 3D).

The following is about 32nm SOI chips being produced for "Gaming" among other uses starting in Dec 2011. This is too early and at 32nm not the rumored 28nm for PS4 and Xbox720. My guess is WiiU as well as Xbox361 or PS3 4000 chassis or both. Charlie at SimiAccurate stated that he heard Oban using this node size and process was being manufactured for Microsoft. He speculated/heard it was for the Xbox720 which NOW does not seem likely.

http://www.globalfoundries.com/newsr.../20120109.aspx
http://www.advancedsubstratenews.com...ibms-32nm-soi/

The SOI technology vastly improves microprocessor performance in multi-core designs and speeds the movement of graphics in gaming, networking, and other image intensive, multi-media applications.

My guess is all one SOI chip that includes Processors as well as GPU and eDRAM (larger than 10 megs and not dedicated to GPU?) This is 100% doable with little effort for Xbox360 as the Xbox360S refresh was already half way to this. An all on one silicon wafer would be cheaper that the Xbox 360S SOC that 2.5D attached multiple chips on a substrate.

For PS3 this is not easily possible. Dumb PS3 shrink is not possible due to the Flex I/O and Rambuss connectors on either side of the Cell so a total redesign is needed and RSX was not designed to work on SOI. My guess is to use the Sony patent 1PPU4SPU elements and something like the AMD GPU being used in the Xbox refresh SOC. Xbox had to emulate it's old GPU in the Xbox360S SOC refresh which was a multi-chip on substrate more expensive SOC. No reason the refreshed PS3 can't do the same.

[ekim]

Yeah, this is pretty much my point. It is nixt-gen. There's no denying that. But power-wise, whether it's what we expect from next-gen or not is another matter. I do hope it makes an appearance - will soften the blow of the inevitability that is Sony/Microsoft's superiority in power come 2013. Do that! :)

Done that - not known to date. :-/

[SonnyBoy]

PS: For some reason I'm bounded by 80 characters per line.

I really enjoyed your post.

[jeff_rigby]

From BY3D and an interesting catch from TheWretched about the pastebin PS4 article:

A lot of rumors are flying around about next gen consoles. Most of the rumors have some truth to them, based on what I have seen, worked with, or heard. However I am extremely annoyed by all the bitching and moaning that is going around the Internet atm about how pathetic rumored spec's are. So much that I have to reveal SOME of the things that are really going on behind closed doors. Spec numbers that IGN posted are from first/early dev kits that have been replaced in mid January. Now I repeat what I know is based on second dev kits that DO NOT represent the final product. Kits will mosT definitely change. Before I reveal SOME of the specs let me tell you that based on what we have heaRd in our studio from our publisher is that Sony was undecided if they should go for a high end machine and take On MS or go for 1.5 leap. According to rumors a couple of Sonys first party studios are asking for high end machine to make games that are going to have noticeable generation leap. While Hirai and other heads over in Japan think it's time to think about profitability. For now "fight" is some where in between, edging more towards higher end. RAM has been raised from 2GB to 4GB when most of bigger publishers and first party studios that have saying went mental. CPU yes it is true Sony is moving away from the CELL. Will there be BC? Our publisher doesn't care and we haven't heard a word about it. Again since these are dev kits we can't know more than that 99% ceLL is done and dusted. Second dev kit uses APU design AMD A8-3870k redesigned to have HD 6850 on board. And yes SI rumors are true. APU is paired with the HD Radeon HD 7900. No HDD rumors are untrue since it has aLready been confirmed that just like PS3, every "Orbis" SKU will have large HDD since Sony is very eager to make Orbis the media hub. O and one more thing Orbis will support 4 layer BR discs from day 1. Next dev kit is hitting after E3. Emphasis by me... those "typos" spell "Troll lo". Dunno what to make of it.

First paragraph gives us "all rumors have some truth" so some of this is true. Annoyed about bitching about specs points to what is a Troll, the infighting at Sony about final specs. My read anyway.

[gundamkyoukai]

From BY3D and an interesting catch from TheWretched about the pastebin PS4 article: First paragraph gives us "all rumors have some truth" so some of this is true. Annoyed about bitching about specs points to what is a Troll, the infighting at Sony about final specs. My read anyway.

Jeff that was posted on gaf a good while ago if i remember right .

[jeff_rigby]

Jeff that was posted on gaf a good while ago if i remember right .

Did they catch the TROLL spelled out in the article? I thought that was new.

[Meelow]

I don't see why it wouldn't be on Wii U. Sure.. I don't like calling it "next gen" because of the lack of a significant power jump... but it is "next gen."

I feel the Wii U will be the PS2 power of next gen, while the PS4 will be the GameCube and the Xbox 720 will be the Xbox.

[Glorified G]

I want the Wii U to be the PS2 power of next gen, while the PS4 to be the GameCube and the Xbox 720 to be the Xbox.

fixed.

[Meelow]

fixed.

If you don't want agree that's up to you but from what everyone is saying it seems like it is.

[Glorified G]

If you don't want agree that's up to you but from what everyone is saying it seems like it is.

Even if your choosing to go off by those vague rumors, the comparison is not there at all. For example, they're rumors of the ps4 having some advantages over the 720 (gpu), while the og xbox had a clear advantage overall over the ps2/gc. I remember there was even a debate about ps2 pushing more polygons than the gc, based on what little we know now, I doubt the Wii U will have any hardware advantage over the ps4.

Seems like it's one of those comparisons that people will repeat over & over so they'll hopefully start to believe it.

[BruiserBear]

Even if your choosing to go off by those vague rumors, the comparison is not there at all. For example, they're rumors of the ps4 having some advantages over the 720 (gpu), while the og xbox had a clear advantage overall over the ps2/gc. I remember there was even a debate about ps2 pushing more polygons than the gc, based on what little we know now, I doubt the Wii U will have any hardware advantage over the ps4. Seems like it's one of those comparisons that people will repeat over & over so they'll hopefully start to believe it.

I agree. This talk of the WiiU's power is going to end the moment those next consoles are unveiled. The next Xbox and Playstation will be massive leaps over the WiiU.

[bgassassin]

Did they catch the TROLL spelled out in the article? I thought that was new.

I think the "troll lo" says it all.

I agree. This talk of the WiiU's power is going to end the moment those next consoles are unveiled. The next Xbox and Playstation will be massive leaps over the WiiU.

Define massive.

[BruiserBear]

Define massive.

The moment games are shown on those consoles no rational person will bother debating the WiiU's power is comparable.

[Ashes1396]

The moment games are shown on those consoles no rational person will bother debating the WiiU's power is comparable.

well logically speaking, they'll be comparable. You can compare an amiga's power with modern mobile phones.

[bgassassin]

The moment games are shown on those consoles no rational person will bother debating the WiiU's power is comparable.

No one has expected Wii U to be on par with the other two coming out. Doesn't mean Wii U can't get the same games.

[Ashes1396]

No one has expected Wii U to be on par with the other two coming out. Doesn't mean Wii U can't get the same games.

You should start naming the weaker systems that have won gens so to speak. Wii, DS, PS2 etc etc

[bgassassin]

You should start naming the weaker systems that have won gens so to speak. Wii, DS, PS2 etc etc

Who has been the sales leader is a different debate as to what is being discussed though.

[BruiserBear]

No one has expected Wii U to be on par with the other two coming out. Doesn't mean Wii U can't get the same games.

The conversation I just engaged in was directly related to someone moments ago comparing the WiiU's power to the PS4 and next Xbox. I'm not sure how you missed that.

[bgassassin]

The conversation I just engaged in was directly related to someone moments ago comparing the WiiU's power to the PS4 and next Xbox. I'm not sure how you missed that.

Comparing the power is not the same as saying it's on par. I'm not sure how you missed that.

[BruiserBear]

Comparing the power is not the same as saying it's on par. I'm not sure how you missed that.

Please direct your attention to this post.

I feel the Wii U will be the PS2 power of next gen, while the PS4 will be the GameCube and the Xbox 720 will be the Xbox.

This person was suggesting they believe the WiiU will be in a similar situation to the PS2, during the prior generation. That prior generation featured 3 consoles that were all very comparable. None of them had significant advantages over the other 2.

This suggestion is going to be proven unwarranted when the PS4 and next Xbox are formally unveiled. That is what I posted about. You seem to be having a different discussion with yourself and you're attempting to bring me into it by force. No thank you.

[bgassassin]

This person was suggesting they believe the WiiU will be in a similar situation to the PS2, during the prior generation. That prior generation featured 3 consoles that were all very comparable. None of them had significant advantages over the other 2. This suggestion is going to be proven unwarranted when the PS4 and next Xbox are formally unveiled. That is what I posted about. You seem to be having a different discussion with yourself and you're attempting to bring me into it by force. No thank you.

Depends on the context of how you view that comparison. I've used it and I've done it using the "KISS" method. Instead of focusing on the specific areas of performance, the overall performance had PS2 as the weakest and Xbox as the strongest and all three consoles could handle the same games "easily". In that context, Wii U would be the PS2 next gen. Weakest of the three and still being able handle the same games without the same limitations that Wii had.

[Reallink]

I feel the Wii U will be the PS2 power of next gen, while the PS4 will be the GameCube and the Xbox 720 will be the Xbox.

Nintendo have a justifiable reason to release the U, but I'm not sure how Sony/MS would explain away iterating PS360 hardware (or whatever it is you're proposing). They will have wasted years and billions of dollars for what? To run CoD in full 720p rather than 600p? What would be the point, why would anyone ditch their current boxes for that? If this was their aim, it would make much more sense to just rebrand their current hardware (Jeff Rigby style) and focus on cloud streaming and media center gimmicks. There would be no reason to leave 120+ million current PS360 owners high and dry for some worthless generational leap.

[BruiserBear]

Depends on the context of how you view that comparison. I've used it and I've done it using the "KISS" method. Instead of focusing on the specific areas of performance, the overall performance had PS2 as the weakest and Xbox as the strongest and all three consoles could handle the same games "easily". In that context, Wii U would be the PS2 next gen. Weakest of the three and still being able handle the same games without the same limitations that Wii had.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that then. I believe the WiiU will be in a similar position to the Wii this gen. It will occasionally get ports of huge franchises, and they'll usually be handled by a "B team" developer hired by the publisher for the task, ie, the Call of Duty games on Wii.

Triple A developers are not going to be saddled with the responsibility of significantly altering their game engine to run on the WiiU, so the B Team is brought in to do a port.

[onQ123]

I think there is a few Wildcards with the PS4 & Xbox Next & they will pull off things that you wouldn't expect once the devs dig into them. same with the Wii U.

[JohnnySasaki86]

I feel the Wii U will be the PS2 power of next gen, while the PS4 will be the GameCube and the Xbox 720 will be the Xbox.

Even if your choosing to go off by those vague rumors, the comparison is not there at all. For example, they're rumors of the ps4 having some advantages over the 720 (gpu), while the og xbox had a clear advantage overall over the ps2/gc. I remember there was even a debate about ps2 pushing more polygons than the gc, based on what little we know now, I doubt the Wii U will have any hardware advantage over the ps4. Seems like it's one of those comparisons that people will repeat over & over so they'll hopefully start to believe it.

I believe you two are getting a little off track here and I'm not sure where your going with it(to bgassassin and bruiserbear).

So anyways.... I believe Glorified brought up a good point here. PS2/GC/Xbox were all relatively comparable with there own strengths and weakness. RE4 on PS2 and GC is a perfect example. The PS2 version was like a worse port, but largely the same. NO WAY should Wii U be able to replicate a PS4 game like PS2 replicated a GC game. I remember articles stating PS2 had very a powerful CPU with the VU's in the EE and was in some ways more powerful than the CPU in the Xbox, and GC had some sort of device in it that allowed it to render twice as many triangles vs Xbox. Ill admit im not sure of either of those and my memory is very fuzzy, but the point was even though there was a pretty clear hierarchy of most powerful console to least, they were all very comparable and had there own strengths and weaknesses. I agree with the fact that I dont think Wii U will share any of those similarites with the 6th gen consoles, and seriously doubt it will have ANY advantages or strengths when compared to PS4/720(technically speaking, the tablet controller if u consider that an advantage doesnt count on this bases).

Therefor the comparison of Wii U as PS2 vs gc/xbox isnt a good one. The gap will be bigger than that. It shouldnt be like the Wii to 360/PS3 but you could make the argument thats the closer comparison.