[Piers]

Somebody give me a valid reason why GAF hates Kotaku. I've rolled my eyes at them plenty in the past, but lately every time I'm linked to them (not a regular reader, I'll admit) their articles seem thoughtful and more ahead-of-the-curve than most of the gaming community.

People have a tendency to focus (and be vocal) more on what's been done wrong and pay less to no attention on what's done right. It's something to vent about, maybe.
You are right, though. Their articles have been more insightful as of recent, and I do appreciate how their reviews get straight down to the point.

It's just when the typical journalist sensationalism comes up that pisses me off. I kind of agree with Notch saying how they [Kotaku] are the problem. It also bugs me when they bring up the "Kotaku has reached out to ____ for a comment and will update in response."
They've done this on instances where it borderlines inappropriate (something being leaked) and its redundant as well. Don't tell us you'll reach out for a comment, just update the article when you have.

[NBtoaster]

Why is it bad PR to not correct publications about a cancellation the second it's posted? They couldn't have handled it better, they wrote off the rumors as baseless shit, and in the most cavalier manner, they couldn't have made those publications look worse. They haven't even started marketing the game, it doesn't matter yet.

It is definitely bad PR to let the internet spread stories for days that your 6+ years in development, extremely expensive, exclusive, high profile brand game is cancelled.

Even when the refutation came, it was the personal twitter of the game director, not an official statement from SE. They should definitely care about these things.

edit: oops, Wada isn't the director

[Utako]

I know it's Kotaku and all

People keep saying this.

And they keep posting Kotaku noise.

[StuBurns]

It is definitely bad PR to let the internet spread stories for days that your 6+ years in development, extremely expensive, exclusive, high profile brand game is cancelled. Even when the refutation came, it was the personal twitter of the game director, not an official statement from SE. They should definitely care about these things.

Why should they care? Do you think people wouldn't buy the game because they'd heard it was canceled eighteen months earlier? If anything, it got everyone talking about Versus, without them having to provide anyone any media.

And it wasn't Nomura, it was Wada's twitter, the company president. There is nothing more official than directly from the head of the company.

[NBtoaster]

Why should they care? Do you think people wouldn't buy the game because they'd heard it was canceled eighteen months earlier? If anything, it got everyone talking about Versus, without them having to provide anyone any media. And it wasn't Nomura, it was Wada's twitter, the company president. There is nothing more official than directly from the head of the company.

Guess you have a point.

And my mistake about the twitter.

[AmandaMatricks]

I somewhat agree with this article. I think it represents an aspect of a larger issue: that we as gamers are generally seen by companies as "consumers" and not "fans of their work".

[Pikma]

I get how Kotaku feels now:

Two weeks ago I asked SE if The World Ends With You would get one more print-run, 2 minutes ago I received their answer:



Can't they give me a plain No? I would rather to.

[Meccanical]

I get how Kotaku feels now: Two weeks ago I asked SE if The World Ends With You would get one more print-run, 2 minutes ago I received their answer: Can't they give me a plain No? I would rather to.

Maybe because the answer isn't no?

[StuBurns]

You want exclusive information about the future of the distribution of a game? And you're irritated you're not getting that?

I know it irritates people on GAF, but it is just entitlement, of course SE aren't going to tell you that.

[Veronica]

Gaming's biggest problem is Kotaku.

[jschreier]

It's weird and kind of scary to hear someone saying that it's "entitlement" to want to know whether a game will be available to buy again in the future.

[xJavonta]

Why would it have to be 'new' news? It's as simple as this: "SE, we heard rumors that FF Versus is scrapped" "Nope, still working on it" "OK then" I have to ask why the secrecy also, I mean ... they can't even acknowledge a game they have ALREADY ANNOUNCED? I'm with Kotaku on this one, that was pretty ridiculous nobody would answer a simple question. For games that are unannounced or rumors of "FFXVI to be co-op and in space" sure ... don't respond or laugh ... but this is completely different. "Hey 343, you working on Halo 4 still" "We cannot answer that, it is a secret, we have no information at this time, you have heard wrong, you have heard right, I cannot comment'

I get what you're trying to say. But that's a bad example lol. I guarantee you if you asked 343 if they're still working on halo 4 the answer will simply be yes.

[StuBurns]

It's weird and kind of scary to hear someone saying that it's "entitlement" to want to know whether a game will be available to buy again in the future.

Anything that a publisher may wish to reveal to the public, is not going to be revealed to an individual, and expecting otherwise is illogical. Maybe it's very small news, maybe it's just a tweet, but it's not going to be a private email response to an individual.

It's not entitlement to want to know, it's entitlement to feel entitled to an answer. A crucial semantic nuance. For example, it's not entitlement to want to know if Versus XIII is in development, it's entitlement to expect SE's PR to tell you.

[Trigger]

I get how Kotaku feels now: Two weeks ago I asked SE if The World Ends With You would get one more print-run, 2 minutes ago I received their answer: [IMG]http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x330/pikmajp/se.png[/IG] Can't they give me a plain No? I would rather to.

Bad example. Maybe a decision hasn't been made? I understand consumer needs and rights, but not every decision they make has to be disclosed to you.

EDIT- StuBurns expressed the point much better.

[jschreier]

Anything that a publisher may wish to reveal to the public, is not going to be revealed to an individual, and expecting otherwise is illogical. Maybe it's very small news, maybe it's just a tweet, but it's not going to be a private email response to an individual. It's not entitlement to want to know, it's entitlement to feel entitled to an answer. A crucial semantic nuance.

Sure, but that's part of what I'm arguing against. Why shouldn't a publisher tell a querying gamer whether there will be another print of a game? This isn't exactly breaking news about a next-gen console; it's a second print.

In fact, I bet if someone had asked a smaller, more open publisher (like, say, XSEED or Atlus) the same question, they would've gotten a direct and straightforward answer.

That cold, corporate, "no comment" mentality is one big reason so many gamers are feeling so disenfranchised today.

[BurnOutBrighter]

Agreed somewhat, it's not the biggest problem but it's a problem. BioWare and Blizzard have treated their customers like shit this year. Too afraid of the community and hiding behind carefully contrived press releases. When criticism or even questioning occurs, they go into lockdown mode, or denial mode.

It's refreshing to see developers that actually care. Last weekend's Path of Exile open beta was eye opening - developers on Twitch streams, on the ground level with real gamers, facing the questions, trolls and criticism.

A personal touch and a genuine regard for customers goes a long way. BioWare and Blizzard have forgotten that, and look how quickly fans have turned on them.

[DaBuddaDa]

I can say one thing's for sure, John Carmack is not afraid to talk. Listening to him right now speaking at Quakecon. He's very humble and honest.

[StuBurns]

Sure, but that's part of what I'm arguing against. Why shouldn't a publisher tell a querying gamer whether there will be another print of a game? This isn't exactly breaking news about a next-gen console; it's a second print. In fact, I bet if someone had asked a smaller, more open publisher (like, say, XSEED or Atlus) the same question, they would've gotten a direct and straightforward answer. That cold, corporate, "no comment" mentality is one big reason so many gamers are feeling so disenfranchised today.

Where is the line drawn? PR will typically not comment on any rumors, this is for a very important reason, if they denied every rumor that wasn't true, and gave the 'we don't comment on rumors and speculation', every time something was true, we'd always know what was true and false. They only confirm or deny a rumor when it directly affects the marketing roll out of a product, or the market force of the company.

What can you expect from a reply to the Versus question? If I remember correctly, it was specifically framed in the context of having a source claiming it was canceled. Would a simple "it's still in-development" have sufficed? Or would Kotaku have responded with "Well our source says team morale is low, etc", "We also heard it had been scrapped and the assets were being used on another project, etc"? I'm imagining no, it would have had lead to responses, at which point, the questions are going to seriously compromise the rereveal of the game. That could be the start of a forty million dollar marketing campaign, totally altered because Kotaku heard from a guy a game was canned. That is entitlement, one man could single-handily cost SE tens of thousands of dollars in marketing strategy development costs.

It's just much easier, and cleaner to be zero tolerance.

[Kagari]

I get how Kotaku feels now: Two weeks ago I asked SE if The World Ends With You would get one more print-run, 2 minutes ago I received their answer: Can't they give me a plain No? I would rather to.

Reminds me of when in June 2010 I asked them about Versus XIII and a North American release:

Dear Customer, Regarding your request for console support. Please find your answer below.
Our parent company, SQUARE ENIX Co., Ltd. of Japan, has not announced a North American release date for that particular title at this time. This is not to say that it will never happen, it's just that SQUARE ENIX of Japan is currently focusing on numerous other projects. Please stay up to date on www.square-enix.com/na for more information on our upcoming titles.
Thank you for contacting the SQUARE ENIX Support Center. For additional assistance with this issue, you can reply to this email directly. For assistance with a new issue, please visit the SQUARE ENIX Support Center at http://support.na.square-enix.com.

[diamount]

Duh, I game to get away from talking to people. People are boring.

[Pikma]

Using that "entitled" word again, huh? I didn't ask them for the FFIX source code, I didn't ask about FFXV, I asked them if would I be able to buy one of their games in the near future, as it's currently out of stock everywhere, and didn't want to pay $70 for it on eBay, I wanted to know if a product made by them would be available AGAIN in the future, guess I'm the one to blame, because asking for product availability is being entitled and arrogant now.

In fact, I bet if someone had asked a smaller, more open publisher (like, say, XSEED or Atlus) the same question, they would've gotten a direct and straightforward answer.

Back then when the Wii was alive, I asked XSEED about any plan to localize a title called Fragile, the answer I got? -Yes it-s coming but we don't have anything to announce yet. I mean I'm not saying that I want them to let me in their Buildings and let me be the first person in the world to see how's Just Cause 3 going, all I wanted was basic product availability info.

[John Rabbit]

Sure, but that's part of what I'm arguing against. Why shouldn't a publisher tell a querying gamer whether there will be another print of a game? This isn't exactly breaking news about a next-gen console; it's a second print. In fact, I bet if someone had asked a smaller, more open publisher (like, say, XSEED or Atlus) the same question, they would've gotten a direct and straightforward answer. That cold, corporate, "no comment" mentality is one big reason so many gamers are feeling so disenfranchised today.

except that the response wasn't "no comment", it was a long-winded "we don't know".

it's entirely possible they don't actually know. why would customer support know about manufacturing anyway?

[StuBurns]

Using that "entitled" word again, huh? I didn't ask them for the FFIX source code, I didn't ask about FFXV, I asked them if would I be able to buy one of their games in the near future, as it's currently out of stock everywhere, and didn't want to pay $70 for it on eBay, I wanted to know if a product made by them would be available AGAIN in the future, guess I'm the one to blame, because asking for product availability is being entitled and arrogant now.

And what if they said no, then four months later there is a reprint, it's not in the pipeline now, but they effectively lie to you. You'd be fine with that? Or would you bitch about it on GAF?

They can't say no, because it could happen, even if it never will, and they couldn't say yes, because if it was about to happen, they'd need to announce it publicly. They couldn't give you either answer logically.

[Pikma]

I wasn't even bitching guys, I was kidding, I was having a laugh at Kotaku, they're sensationalist at best, it's no big deal to me, I will end up buying that game, but you coming out to tell me I'm entitled, that feels funny, as you are the ones that are taking it too seriously.

[StuBurns]

I wasn't even bitching guys, I was kidding, I was having a laugh at Kotaku, they're sensationalist at best, it's no big deal to me, I will end up buying that game, but you coming out to tell me I'm entitled, that feels funny, as you are the ones that are taking it too seriously.

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting you are bitching, I was asking if you would bitch if they said it's not getting a reprint then it did, the implication being that would in turn be worse for SE than them just not answering, as they did.

The Kotaku article is strange, because it makes very unusual statements about the nature of other industries. Hollywood are open about their projects? No, they're not. Due to the nature of a project starting when a producer picks up a script, it's naturally more open to begin with, but once production starts rolling, it's exactly as tight as it is in gaming. They very often go to extremes to try and prevent people seeing anything before hand. And they don't provide anything to the media until they are fully happy with it. It links Peter Jackson's little video thing, the games industry does that stuff all the time. They do talk about canceled games too, look at the fantastic 1up article about LMNO, that game didn't even make it to being announced, and EA (probably the most conservative publisher outside of Rockstar) were surprisingly open about it.

Other statements like popular gaming figure heads being open isn't really true at all. Gabe Newell could tell us everything about Half-Life 3, he doesn't even dare speak it's name. CliffyB will never speak about any game before it's officially revealed. They're just more open to talk shit about other companies because they're rich and beyond being fired.

All high profile media is the same, very controlled, very limited, very 'cold'.

[Stan Smith]

This is essentially an ill-advised defensive article of their practices as "journalists".

We don't mind talking about games, or even speculating. But when you cross the line and feed outright lies to the public you forfeit your right to be a part of the conversation.

[Iztli]

The biggest problem in gaming today is that the gaming industry thinks we're all out to get them. They think gamers are the enemy, a group that needs to be treated with disdain and avoided whenever possible

Isn't that the same case with the gaming press...

Whenever gamers voice their opinions/complaints they are met with hate and the "E" word.

[scitek]

Isn't that the same case with the gaming press... Whenever gamers voice their opinions/complaints they are met with hate and the "E" word.

Like that asshole from IGN that made a video calling out fans of Mass Effect. I couldn't believe what I was watching. It was easily one of the most immature things I've ever seen. ...and this is an industry dedicated to man-children.

[Riggs]

Isn't that the same case with the gaming press... Whenever gamers voice their opinions/complaints they are met with hate and the "E" word.

No shit man the irony is so thick ....

[Codeblue]

I wasn't even bitching guys, I was kidding, I was having a laugh at Kotaku, they're sensationalist at best, it's no big deal to me, I will end up buying that game, but you coming out to tell me I'm entitled, that feels funny, as you are the ones that are taking it too seriously.

In some other thread someone pointed out that you could still get it new at SE's online shop for $20, so they could have just directed you to their own store.

[The Bookerman]

I'd love to speak a ton about stuff I've seen, heard in the industry, and I can't. Why? cause it's a small world. You speak too much and they'll find another kid off the street ready to keep their mouth shut. Trust me, it's like any other industry, there's stupid shit done every day.

[StuBurns]

The irony of this article is they're asking for greater transparency while referencing their recent lack of transparency. They want the dirt on projects, they could give their own up. What happened when Wada bitch slapped them down? Nothing, a correction to the story, but there was no public explanation for how the story made it out. For what exactly their vetting process is. For who this source actually turned out to be. For if this same person had been responsible for any other information they've posted, etc.

A week later, they linked to rumoured screenshots of Monster Hunter Vita and they seemingly hadn't even clicked the link themselves, they certainly didn't cast a critical eye over the screenshots or they'd have seen the glaring issues it took gaffers all of a minute to spot and mock.

Practice what you preach, you want dirty laundry to be shared openly, let's see yours.

[SatelliteOfLove]

We are not stock holders (who already have a bad track record with using company secrets information wisely...). We are not entitled (LIGHTNING ROD WORRRRRRRRRRD) to be privy to that information unless we own stock in THAT company or have kickstarted THAT company and that company only. Anything else is their business and ours and games media types' skill at sussing out information from the tells.

Of all the things to fixate on...

Thought this would be about online gaming I never talk online :/

I never get talk online. :/

[NoirVisage]

The irony of this article is they're asking for greater transparency while referencing their recent lack of transparency. They want the dirt on projects, they could give their own up. What happened when Wada bitch slapped them down? Nothing, a correction to the story, but there was no public explanation for how the story made it out. For what exactly their vetting process is. For who this source actually turned out to be. For if this same person had been responsible for any other information they've posted, etc. A week later, they linked to rumoured screenshots of Monster Hunter Vita and they seemingly hadn't even clicked the link themselves, they certainly didn't cast a critical eye over the screenshots or they'd have seen the glaring issues it took gaffers all of a minute to spot and mock. Practice what you preach, you want dirty laundry to be shared openly, let's see yours.

ouch, i forget this was so soon after. they're journalist when it suits them.

[OldJadedGamer]

The irony of this article is they're asking for greater transparency while referencing their recent lack of transparency. They want the dirt on projects, they could give their own up. What happened when Wada bitch slapped them down? Nothing, a correction to the story, but there was no public explanation for how the story made it out. For what exactly their vetting process is. For who this source actually turned out to be. For if this same person had been responsible for any other information they've posted, etc. A week later, they linked to rumoured screenshots of Monster Hunter Vita and they seemingly hadn't even clicked the link themselves, they certainly didn't cast a critical eye over the screenshots or they'd have seen the glaring issues it took gaffers all of a minute to spot and mock. Practice what you preach, you want dirty laundry to be shared openly, let's see yours.

The rule should be that any anonymous source should be exposed if the rumor is untrue. That way, they get one chance to get it right and if they lie they are exposed.

[Satchel]

I actually agree with the article.

I'd love it if devs we're more open about the process.

The secretive "we can't reveal that yet" stuff pisses me off.

[Dreams-Visions]

Gamings biggest problem is uninformed consumers only paying attention to the games that are forced in front of their faces, and shying away from new experiences. They stifle creativity by forcing people to make marketable retreads.

No.

Consumers will play what they fucking want to play. We're not better than people who only want to play CoD or Madden just because we buy Bastion or Okami.

If you want to blame someone, blame executives for refusing to fund games that can't sell more than 3 or 4 million. Or contracts that keep developers from making real money until after the million threshold.

There was a day when a couple hundred thousand copies was enough. Those same customers are still buying those unique games...but their money isn't enough for publishers who want millions of sales.

It's not the customers fault that gaming is becoming increasingly dominated by a couple of genres; it's the demand of those signing the paychecks pushing devs towards the flavor-of-the-month genres and types.

[vireland]

yea, good points. it's annoying and doesn't build hype. it builds frustration instead.

On the flipside, hearing that "Delays are temporary, medocrity is forever" a lot was frustrating to some people, too. Timing the starting flow of communication about a specific project is equally important. :)

[Trigger]

The rule should be that any anonymous source should be exposed if the rumor is untrue. That way, they get one chance to get it right and if they lie they are exposed.

I'm not too fond of this idea if only because the burden is on the journalist to do great research. A source in ideal is a jumping off point for a larger investigation. Kotaku shouldn't be using unnamed sources as the linchpin of their stories.

[videotape]

We are not stock holders (who already have a bad track record with using company secrets information wisely...). We are not entitled (LIGHTNING ROD WORRRRRRRRRRD) to be privy to that information unless we own stock in THAT company or have kickstarted THAT company and that company only. Anything else is their business and ours and games media types' skill at sussing out information from the tells.

Yeah I read through the whole article and this was my thought. I can't think of any industry where the amount of information about unreleased products is so available

Look at the Iphone 5, leaks have happened but Apple has confirmed nothing. Hell it was unexpected when they released the 4S as a modest improvement when everyone was expecting an Iphone 5. They're stock ended up moving when the 4S was released because they let people speculate it would be the Iphone 5.

I kind of have a tough time comprehending what the author wants, because business can't work that way. With the arts, it makes even less sense to talk about your work until it's complete.

[OldJadedGamer]

On the flipside, hearing that "Delays are temporary, medocrity is forever" a lot was frustrating to some people, too. Timing the starting flow of communication about a specific project is equally important. :)

Vic, wouldn't you agree that talking about a game only when it was playable to people outside of the company would be a great starting point? Sure there will be delays here and there but at that point to be playable you are super late alpha and early beta so not much is going to change and you have a great idea of when your dates will be.

Look at the perfect example of how Nintendo revealed Punch Out for the Wii. Brilliance.

[JABEE]

The irony of this article is they're asking for greater transparency while referencing their recent lack of transparency. They want the dirt on projects, they could give their own up. What happened when Wada bitch slapped them down? Nothing, a correction to the story, but there was no public explanation for how the story made it out. For what exactly their vetting process is. For who this source actually turned out to be. For if this same person had been responsible for any other information they've posted, etc. A week later, they linked to rumoured screenshots of Monster Hunter Vita and they seemingly hadn't even clicked the link themselves, they certainly didn't cast a critical eye over the screenshots or they'd have seen the glaring issues it took gaffers all of a minute to spot and mock. Practice what you preach, you want dirty laundry to be shared openly, let's see yours.

100% correct. There is no accountability for Kotaku because they appear to have very little roadblocks in the way of publishing false news. It almost seems like fakes are just a cost Kotaku can push onto their readership, because they can just slap *RUMOR* on any piece of "news" they scrape off of NeoGaf, Reddit, or other sites and profit off the page views without their readership holding them responsible for lack of original, sourced content. Kotaku makes a mockery of legitimate journalism. It's tabloid level pleas for attention and nothing else.

[KingItachi]

I have never been of Kotaku aka Joketaku but their article does have some good points, I always laugh when entitled is bought up it's just too funny.

[JABEE]

The rule should be that any anonymous source should be exposed if the rumor is untrue. That way, they get one chance to get it right and if they lie they are exposed.

I don't think they should reveal their anonymous sources, but we should have an understanding of how reliable the source was and how many other sources confirmed such information. What evidence did you have to determine this was an article that was worth writing. There should be more than one source to a story before you publish it and if they should be checked with your own sources. Kotaku seems to lack a editorial checks that prevent their salaried writers from posting unconfirmed or dishonest articles. It appears to be encouraged.

[vireland]

Vic, wouldn't you agree that talking about a game only when it was playable to people outside of the company would be a great starting point? Sure there will be delays here and there but at that point to be playable you are super late alpha and early beta so not much is going to change and you have a great idea of when your dates will be. Look at the perfect example of how Nintendo revealed Punch Out for the Wii. Brilliance.

The crazy part is that the way I did it at WD, while not intentionally stretched out or some master marketing plan, actually worked to raise awareness substantially more than it would have otherwise been. I don't know the correct answer, and I'm not sure there is one. It's an absolute question in an inexact and always-changing world.

[Haunted]

It's a real catch 22 situation, publishers won't start opening up because they're afraid of sensationalist headlines, gaming journalists won't stop doing sensationalist headlines because they get so few actual news bits to write (which aren't carefully pre-selected PR bs).

Then you get into the whole publishers -> enthusiast press ecosystem and how no one actually gets rewarded from investigative journalism in the industry and combine that with the lacking professional training of the journalists working in this industry as well as the untrained-in-PR developers leading to the official PR people wanting everything to be super safe.


Just ask the Tomb Raider guys how their off-the-cuff interviews have been working out for them recently.

[Pikma]

In some other thread someone pointed out that you could still get it new at SE's online shop for $20, so they could have just directed you to their own store.

Oh shit, I just bought it for $40...

[Dalauz]

Devolpers TALK TOO MUCH THESE DAYS

in my time they shot at you. And things like Strike Commander, Syndicate, Populous, X-Wing, Doom, Comanche, Star Control, Super Metroid, Gunstar heroes and etc were forged

[TheSeks]

How is this gaming's biggest problem ?

Because if devs won't stop speculation, it's going to be the speculation that becomes truth. See the P4U Region-lock thread: People thought it was Arc or a Japanese company wanting the region lock when it was really Atlus.

[Codeblue]

Oh shit, I just bought it for $40...

Sorry dude. If it makes you feel any better, it's totally amazing.