[GoofsterStud]

Nah. Not even close. You are forgetting that Raid Finder strips mechanics from boss fights, and if it doesn't strip them, it makes the penalty for handling them incorrectly negligible. Its an order of magnitude easier because of that. No contest. Raid Finders only difficulty is teaching the players who are new or never done anything outside of a 5 man how to handle stuff like jumping platform and other raid staples. After that you can pretty easily cruise through it. Even still, its the best thing they have added to the game in a long time. Its going to be a hit for them with the folks they are aiming it at going forward.

Hmm. I guess we can pug DS10 just fine, other then the ball mechanic and tanks needing to know what they should do. The 30% debuff makes it easier. I doubt our server is that good.

[TucoBenedictoPacifico]

why is no one up for buying activision from vivendi. would it be like catching a falling knife?

Because, while highly profitable, virtually no one can afford them, and the very few who could aren't sure at all that they can grant any additional growth for such a leviathan.

[Heavy]

That's a lot of Diablo 3. I want to see Blizzard All Stars.

I'm really looking forward to that. I need a new moba, one that's different and AAA.

[Orayn]

It was inevitable.

[vocab]

They will gain some back for sure. But I doubt you are gonna see them get all their lost subscribers back. WoW is at the point where it's past it's prime.

Absolutely. I personally think it was past its prime when world pvp was killed off. The only game that will beat it out is their new mmo.

[Coolwhip]

ouch. deserved though. a huge drought of content and a game that gets worse with each patch.

[Berordn]

Absolutely. I personally think it was past its prime when world pvp was killed off. The only game that will beat it out is their new mmo.

Nobody killed world pvp but the players. I feel safer roaming around on pvp servers than I do sitting in home cities now.

[Trickster]

Nobody killed world pvp but the players. I feel safer roaming around on pvp servers than I do sitting in home cities now.

BS, blizzard killed world pvp with battlegrounds and arenas that gave shiny loot.

[Berordn]

BS, blizzard killed world pvp with battlegrounds and arenas that gave shiny loot.

So if they never added organized pvp, you still expect that people would happily run around killing each other while they're off doing whatever? They get bored of raids after a month but they wouldn't mind dancing on each others corpses with no reward?

[davidsaurus]

It is falling, slowly. Mists will bring back some more players, but it won't prolong the death of WoW by much. It's just been too long now, we need something truly new with a different direction but similar ambitions. Hopefully whatever Titan is blows us away.

[V_Arnold]

Perhaps, but it doesn't matter. Raid Finders purpose isn't to be difficult. The absolute removal of certain boss mechanics makes that pretty clear. Its a vehicle to let casual gamers see end game content, it succeeds at that and its a good addition to the game as it doesn't remove Normal and Heroic difficulties from existing. Might not matter to us, but if he is a casual player, he will likely appreciate it, that's why I mentioned it.

Could not have said it better, I absolutely agree with you on this. I never get why removing options is supposed to be great for...someone. Boo.

[Rockandrollclown]

It is falling, slowly. Mists will bring back some more players, but it won't prolong the death of WoW by much. It's just been too long now, we need something truly new with a different direction but similar ambitions. Hopefully whatever Titan is blows us away.

9 million is nowhere near the "death" of this game though. This game could drop to what like 4 million and be the highest populated MMO in history besides WoW at its prime. A decade from now, people will still be playing WoW. That said, this content drought is worse than any other before it.

[fluffydelusions]

9m subs is still WAY more than any other MMO out there.

[Alex]

Probably Diablo cutting into it, that and months of null time. I think they'll spike back up when the expansion hits. It's not likely to ever really rebound past the initial double digits but I think they'll remain fairly stable for awhile.

Could not have said it better, I absolutely agree with you on this. I never get why removing options is supposed to be great for...someone. Boo.

When you add a function like that, it isn't a flat addition, it usually causes ripples in the design and the focus of the playerbase. Some will like the additions, some will not. It's just not cut and dry.

My opinion on the LFR/LFD, etc complaints is that it's usually just Blizzard's lack of ambition in compensating for the flaws of it. They've really dropped the ball on middle ground content and having to climb to the apex of the game just to be challenged in a way that players in an aging game may not have time for anymore isn't really the greatest of design choices.

But I don't play anymore either, so it's not really my place to say. I liked the game a lot but I've had my fill and it's just not for me anymore.

[fluffydelusions]

9*15=135m per year on just wow subscriptions...not bad imo.

[RPGCrazied]

I'm sure it'll get most if not all of them back for MoP. We were out of content for how long this time? 1 1/2 years?

[Gentleman Jack]

So if they never added organized pvp, you still expect that people would happily run around killing each other while they're off doing whatever? They get bored of raids after a month but they wouldn't mind dancing on each others corpses with no reward?

Blizzard killed world pvp by allowing players at max level to spend 99% of their time airborne and unattackable. Nobody is trundling about on ground mounts or on foot anymore, making spontaneous skirmishes extremely few and far between.

There is a reason they never let you mount on a flier in Wintergrasp or Tol Barad.

That said Blizzard is still playing pretty fast and loose with what constitutes a 'subscriber' in Asian regions right? Something like 'logged in at a net cafe for a few hours in the last 30 days' counts as an active subscription?

[RSLAEV]

I quit months ago. I can't believe 9 million people are *still* playing.

[davidsaurus]

9 million is nowhere near the "death" of this game though. This game could drop to what like 4 million and be the highest populated MMO in history besides WoW at its prime. A decade from now, people will still be playing WoW. That said, this content drought is worse than any other before it.

It's just going to get worse and worse. I agree, in 3 years time it'll still have 5m subscribers but it is dying. Previously when people said it was dying, they were wrong it was staying stable but now I think it's on the downwards slope.

[BigDug13]

WoW seems to still be the one thing Blizzard gets kinda right, and nobody is going to touch their model as the last truly successful subscription fantasy MMO. ES Online is destined for failure by providing WoW-style gameplay with an engine that can't provide WoW-level performance in a world that people are used to exploring in a different way with the Bethesda single player ES games.

If Blizzard devoted more people to continuing to release content on WoW, I think people would still keep it going for longer. New classes, new races, with the new zones...all of those things make people come back to level a new character.

I was in WoW Beta and I haven't played WoW since before their first expansion dropped when my character was level 50, and yet the thought of leveling a monk...their first class addition (without requiring a max level character to unlock) since the game released, is making me think about coming back.

[dimb]

9*15=135m per year on just wow subscriptions...not bad imo.

That's not how WoW subs work. The lion's share of subs are in Eastern countries that don't pay a full sub fee.

[fluffydelusions]

Does anyone know the 2nd most played MMO and the numbers for that?

[Gentleman Jack]

It's just going to get worse and worse. I agree, in 3 years time it'll still have 5m subscribers but it is dying. Previously when people said it was dying, they were wrong it was staying stable but now I think it's on the downwards slope.

They are only really competing with their own products, so it's not so much on a downwards slope as much as the world seems to have reached a plateau of between 11-12 million fans of blizzard products who buy and play a mixture of their games at any one time.

But naturally, to investors a lack of real growth in your market is no different than a downwards slope

[Trickster]

So if they never added organized pvp, you still expect that people would happily run around killing each other while they're off doing whatever? They get bored of raids after a month but they wouldn't mind dancing on each others corpses with no reward?

I can't answer that, because that's not something that ever happened. I can however tell you that When blizzard introduced battlegrounds. World pvp pretty much died because battlegrounds gave more honor, and was a much easier way of getting honor since you were guaranteed honor even if you lost the bg. World pvp required you to find players, and then you had to actually win. It was slower and riskier.

Players pretty much always choose the path of least resistence. Whether it's for PvP or PvE.

9*15=135m per year on just wow subscriptions...not bad imo.

it's 15 bucks per month, not year though. But like someone else said. That price model only applies to US and EU I believe. With a very large % of player being in other regions.

[Berek Halfhand]

SW Galaxies, LOTRO, and any other MMO out there would be salivating if they had half those numbers.

[davidsaurus]

They are only really competing with their own products, so it's not so much on a downwards slope as much as the world seems to have reached a plateau of between 11-12 million fans of blizzard products who buy and play a mixture of their games at any one time. But naturally, to investors a lack of real growth in your market is no different than a downwards slope

It's not a wow killer, but guild wars 2 will definitely take quite a few people away.

[diamount]

Hmm, no new content and content that is just plain bad for nearly a year (up until MOP releases in September, DS was released in November). No wonder people are leaving - seriously, even Wrath had some decent filler until Cata was relesed and even when you had to farm ICC for a year, it was original content. Not bland, reused crap.

Hopefully this teaches them a lesson not to continue with the content drought, make it more original, varied and actually put work into it or F2P games that have consistently better content for FREE will look like a much better option for a lot of people.

[Duxxy3]

I hate to blame the guy, but since greg street took over the series WoW has lost 3 millions subs.

[PsychoSoldier]

It's not a wow killer, but guild wars 2 will definitely take quite a few people away.

Temporarily, most likely, though some might just quit MMO's altogether.

[Haunted]

D3 over 10 million already, wow.


WoW has clearly peaked, upcoming expansion or not, but there's probably no need for them to go F2P anytime soon-ish, except the bleeding has come from the western territories exclusively.

[Berordn]

I can't answer that, because that's not something that ever happened. I can however tell you that When blizzard introduced battlegrounds. World pvp pretty much died because battlegrounds gave more honor, and was a much easier way of getting honor since you were guaranteed honor even if you lost the bg. World pvp required you to find players, and then you had to actually win. It was slower and riskier. Players pretty much always choose the path of least resistence. Whether it's for PvP or PvE.

So the players decided. Players chose that they'd rather do organized objective-based PvP rather than random skirmishes, and players stopped participating in World PvP.

Flying mounts are a legitimate concern against it, since after Wrath there was rarely any reason to go out into the world and outside of one or two zones you never put 85 characters in the same place. Pandaria might finally change that, since even though you'll get to fly at 90 again, there's still an absolute massive amount of stuff to do in the world, on foot.

[Khezu]

I hate to blame the guy, but since greg street took over the series WoW has lost 3 millions subs.

They should scrap Titan and have the A team come back and fix ghostcrawlers mess.

[diamount]

D3 over 10 million already, wow. WoW has clearly peaked, upcoming expansion or not, but there's probably no need for them to go F2P anytime soon-ish, except the bleeding has come from the western territories exclusively.

I thought they did not handle things over in Asia and only got paid royalties and the like. Still, I can only imagine WoW going F2P only once their next MMO is out, and subs for WoW have dropped to the 500k or so mark.

[Seiru]

To be honest, they really needed MoP out this summer, and I'm pretty sure that was what the original plan was. The last raid of this expansion has gone on way too long, especially since Blizzard has specifically said that they are trying to shorten the dead time between content.

That being said, this isn't a huge deal, the game will make back the subscribers lost this quarter and then some when MoP comes out.

I hate to blame the guy, but since greg street took over the series WoW has lost 3 millions subs.

Or there are about five hundred other factors that correlate with when WoW has started losing subscribers. Most notably the game getting much older.

[KingKong]

To put this in perspective, WoW came out in 2004.

Games are just going to naturally lose subs due to people getting tired of playing and newer players not subbing because the game is old/there's too much content to go through, it's still incredibly impressive that they have 9 million people playing and shrugged off every MMO that has come out since then

[Trickster]

So the players decided. Players chose that they'd rather do organized objective-based PvP rather than random skirmishes, and players stopped participating in World PvP.

If you wanna look at it that way, sure. You can also look at it like this; Blizzard actively focused only on making instanced pvp. Which gave players more and easier obtainable honor points. Leading to people towards the path of least resistence.

What do you think people would choose to do, if blizzard changed honor gains, so the easiest way to get honor was open world pvp?

[Duxxy3]

If you wanna look at it that way, sure. You can also look at it like this; Blizzard actively focused only on making instanced pvp. Which gave players more and easier obtainable honor points. Leading to people towards the path of least resistence. What do you think people would choose to do, if blizzard changed honor gains, so the easiest way to get honor was open world pvp?

AOE fest outside of org.

[diamount]

To put this in perspective, WoW came out in 2004. Games are just going to naturally lose subs due to people getting tired of playing and newer players not subbing because the game is old/there's too much content to go through, it's still incredibly impressive that they have 9 million people playing and shrugged off every MMO that has come out since then

That's obviously for a variety reasons.

1. People have been playing on the same characters for over 5 years now and don't like investing time in another MMO/character.

2. WoW runs on pretty much anything, so they don't feel the need to upgrade if WoW or low req games is all they play see LoL.

3. WoW's combat is some of the smoothest on the market and for good reason if it's bee nout for that long.

There are also reasons for people leaving that particular MMO, but that kinda incites flame wars so probably not best to go down that road.

[Trickster]

AOE fest outside of org.

Don't see how that's different than AV.

But you know very well what I mean.

[Gez]

[TwiztidElf]

8 year old game is 8 years old.

[mysteriousmage09]

Lol it's more shocking that 1.1 million is all the drop off is. The last content patch came out in December ffs. Over 7 months ago. Mists will pull everyone back, even those that vowed to never go back to it as the case with every expansion to release for the game. They will get all the lost subs back with interest.

[GoofsterStud]

Lol it's more shocking that 1.1 million is all the drop off is. The last content patch came out in December ffs. Over 7 months ago. Mists will pull everyone back, even those that vowed to never go back to it as the case with every expansion to release for the game. They will get all the lost subs back with interest.

Not suprising at all. $10 wow sales combined with recruit-a-friend? Doing this all when announcing a new recruit a friend mount. LOL What people will spend on mounts is amazing, why not boost subscription account to look better, instead of just releasing it in the blizzard store.

PS: I'm sure the Resurrection benefits are still helping.

[Mr Swine]

Still disappointed that they never added ogres as playable race in WOW :/

[GoofsterStud]

Still disappointed that they never added ogres as playable race in WOW :/

I really wanted Naga or Ethereal. :-/

Hell you could play as a Naga during a quest chain, why...why must we only get Pandas?

[DeathNote]

I'm currently subscribed because of annual pass, but I'm not playing and don't intend to.

[StickSoldier]

I'll definitely go back when it goes f2p

[shintoki]

There is no need to go F2P anytime soon. They could lose 3/4 of that and still be top dog. Its 8 years old, simple as that. Mists will boost those numbers once more, but they'll be back down and lower.

[Berordn]

Don't see how that's different than AV. But you know very well what I mean.

Well, that's exactly what would happen. How do you make the act of world pvp into an activity on par with battlegrounds and arenas instead of the natural result of two enemy players interacting? How are they even comparable, really?

Players get rewards from PvE, from everything they defeat. The rewards scale based on what they're killing. You could spend hours upon hours, killing mobs to level up or farm gold and loot, but it's more practical to work toward goals or group up with players to tackle larger obstacles and get greater rewards from it. PvP follows the same scale. You could spend hours killing other players and get the same amount of honor you do from BGs or Arena matches, but to compensate for the task being larger and more involved, the reward for doing those is greater.

[Schweinehund]

I'll probably resub when the panda patch goes live.

Thinking of doing an orc arms warrior in preparation for expansion.

Comparing to the rate in which they pumped out content in tbc and vanilla, it seems to have come to a crawl. Then again, content was a lot more buggy in tbc/vanilla.