[dragonelite]

http://www.strategyinformer.com/news...port-windows-8

probably the win8 kernel just like windows phone 8 i think.

[Exuro]

3 - Why is the search divided in 3 different types I need to cycle through? Why can't you give one unified list with separators. Sure, let me cycle through each types, but show me everything before making some arbitrary distinction.

This one annoys the hell out of me.

[alexandros]

At the risk of being blamed once again for other people's opinions, Gamesindustry.biz polled several PC developers to get their opinions on Windows 8.

GamesIndustry International recently polled other PC developers as well to get their respective takes on Windows 8. Is Windows 8 really that bad? Some are attempting to give Microsoft the benefit of the doubt, but many are concerned about the "walled garden" approach.

Fans of Tom Clancy, obviously.

[Rlan]

for instance, why is that Steam icon so small and different compared to those big nice Metro icons? If Microsoft had clear intentions, they would have let devs made them look the same... but now what happens is that Desktop applications have 16x16 icons that make them look like they are Win 3.1 applications while at the same time Metro apps can have beautiful new icons.

Chrome. Not in the Windows 8 App Store, Supports Metro Tile, actually opens in Metro and not desktop if you wish it to.

[derFeef]

Dean "Rocket" Hall, creator of DayZ, acknowledged that he still hasn't "properly reviewed its impact yet" but he noted "there is some legitimate concern there, particularly for complex games that the PC market has a real hedge on."

"It is not good for our ability to produce great games and to be responsive to the needs of players. We don't know yet if Steam, and our products, will be able to operate effectively outside the Windows Store / Metro environment. There's time left and details still to come, so we are staying optimistic and will have to wait and see what the Windows 8 launch brings."

Those are completely oblivious developers I have to say.

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Someone point them to the dev preview that's been around for who knows how long so they can do their job.

[saltywalrus]

Chrome. Not in the Windows 8 App Store, Supports Metro Tile, actually opens in Metro and not desktop if you wish it to.

Chrome is a bad example. It is actually a metro-style enabled desktop browser. Browsers get extra permissions that no other applications can get. In addition, the browser must be set as default in order to work in Metro. Other apps don't get this benefit.

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

MS is gonna force all of their software down our throats.





Except for Internet Explorer.

/tinfoil hat

[alexandros]

All these devs are clueless hacks.

[Chinner]

haven't these devs been reading microsoft pr lol?

[SPDIF]

for instance, why is that Steam icon so small and different compared to those big nice Metro icons? If Microsoft had clear intentions, they would have let devs made them look the same... but now what happens is that Desktop applications have 16x16 icons that make them look like they are Win 3.1 applications while at the same time Metro apps can have beautiful new icons. They are trying to relegate Desktop apps to 2nd choice, but problem is that in a lot of cases, Metro apps are too limited in what they can do, so in your daily work and play, you will mostly have to use the Desktop... it is weird.

Chrome is a bad example. It is actually a metro-style enabled desktop browser. Browsers get extra permissions that no other applications can get. In addition, the browser must be set as default in order to work in Metro. Other apps don't get this benefit.

That's just how they looked in the previews. In the RTM, they've been made bigger, similar to Chrome.

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

All these devs are clueless hacks.

If they can't download a free version of a major software release to test basic compatibility, then that definitely says something about them.

[MrNyarlathotep]

There is a lot of very good real world data on their Win 8 development blog: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2...rt-screen.aspx

Interesting blogpost.

Particularly the feedback saying "I don't want this, and here is why" and the replies being "Yes you do, and here is why your opinion is wrong".

Someone point them to the dev preview that's been around for who knows how long so they can do their job.

there's a difference between "We don't know how to install a preview herp derp" and "We don't know if we will be able to operate effectively under this in the future" you know?

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Only people I've seen shaking over whether or not their software will work under Windows 8 is a very small minority of game developers who seem to be stirring the pot specifically for their own benefit.

No one else seems to have a problem with it.

[MrNyarlathotep]

Only people I've seen shaking over whether or not their software will work under Windows 8 is a very small minority of game developers who seem to be stirring the pot specifically for their own benefit. No one else seems to have a problem with it.

Well, sure, if you define "a very small minority of game developers" as "game developers who work primarily on the PC as their target platform" then you're right, most console developers haven't spoken out about Windows 8.

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Right.

Because game developers are the only ones who develop software.

[MrNyarlathotep]

Right. Because game developers are the only ones who develop software.

I'm not aware of any .NET, silverlight or XNA developers particularly happy about it either.

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Yeah. Every day a high profile software developer announces how they're just not sure they can write a program for Windows 8.

[MrNyarlathotep]

Yeah. Every day a high profile software developer announces how they're just not sure they can write a program for Windows 8.

Mozilla and Google are both pretty big, and have both expressed deep concerns about Windows RT, to the point that Mozilla are seeking counsel about it.

If you genuinely believe the only people with concerns are a couple of game developers, you need to actually pay attention beyond a customer preview on some techblog desperate to get their free Surface.

[spwolf]

That's just how they looked in the previews. In the RTM, they've been made bigger, similar to Chrome.

so they are awful looking 32x32 now? :-).

Look how bad they look compared to Metro icons... they are literally making you think you are clicking on something from stone age.

Just look at that screen - Desktop, reason you actually got that PC, is one tile out of many in Windows 8 startup screen... It will confuse the hell out of many users.

I am sure we will find ways to improve it, from probably hacking up Metro tile for Desktop app, to booting straight into Desktop, Start menu, etc, etc... most are already available, but problem people have is that this is going to change how normal user acts and it is changing the whole ecosystem for Win8.

[Exuro]

I am sure we will find ways to improve it, from probably hacking up Metro tile for Desktop app, to booting straight into Desktop, Start menu, etc, etc... most are already available, but problem people have is that this is going to change how normal user acts and it is changing the whole ecosystem for Win8.

Do you mean instead of having the start menu with live tiles, have the desktop apps use the live tiles? After using 8 for a while I'd have loved if they did this, to combine the two UIs into one.

[JaggedSac]

I was test-driving using both Metro and desktop apps as part of an everyday workflow scenario. Just the fact that you can only have two Metro apps on screen at a time is problematic to say the least, as the OS forces you to flick constantly between applications and between the desktop and Metro if you want to have all the information available to you. Then there's the issue of unintuitive mouse gestures for common things like closing an app or getting access to specific settings. I also had trouble coping with the inconcistency between Metro and desktop when it came to things such as the function of right-clicking.

What Metro apps were you needing information from as part of a workflow? Why were you flicking constantly between applications? What were those applications?

I can give a concrete example of an issue I was noticing. I wanted to run windows explorer as administrator but I could not. Should have been able to from the Metro start screen and from the desktop, but to no avail. I looked at my user profile and it said I was an admin. Ended up having to switch back to Windows 7 for a minute and give the folder on an external hard drive more open permissions. I am sure there was a better way, but I had no idea what it was.

[Mammoth Jones]

Windows 8 will be fine. This is a bunch of fear mongering to get gamers to fret on their behalf against Microsoft for nothing.

Microsoft will have its appstore but in the end it'll never hold a candle to specialized online offerings (i.e. Steam, Indie development...etc)

[D3RANG3D]

What Metro apps were you needing information from as part of a workflow? Why were you flicking constantly between applications? What were those applications? I can give a concrete example of an issue I was noticing. I wanted to run windows explorer as administrator but I could not. Should have been able to from the Metro start screen and from the desktop, but to no avail. I looked at my user profile and it said I was an admin. Ended up having to switch back to Windows 7 for a minute and give the folder on an external hard drive more open permissions. I am sure there was a better way, but I had no idea what it was.

Go to c:/windows and find explorer.exe, right click run as admin, you can also run as admin on metro if this version of explorer is pinned to start (metro).

[spwolf]

Do you mean instead of having the start menu with live tiles, have the desktop apps use the live tiles? After using 8 for a while I'd have loved if they did this, to combine the two UIs into one.

yes... and other improvements to Metro that people want.

Windows devs have always been good at working the system to their liking, BUT this is why Metro is bad - it completely forbids anything unofficial. Or else you dont get listed on their app store.

[DTKT]

yes... and other improvements to Metro that people want. Windows devs have always been good at working the system to their liking, BUT this is why Metro is bad - it completely forbids anything unofficial. Or else you dont get listed on their app store.

Welcome to a closed marketplace.

[Raoh]

I think these devs really over estimate how many people are going to buy 8. Just because it's cheap doesn't mean people are going to buy it. People aren't stupid.

I LOL'd


a lot.

[JaggedSac]

Go to c:/windows and find explorer.exe, right click run as admin, you can also run as admin on metro if this version of explorer is pinned to start (metro).

Thanks, but I tried both of those, the option for admin was not on either.

[D3RANG3D]

Thanks, but I tried both of those, the option for admin was not on either.

[JaggedSac]

Sorry, I know where it was supposed to be. But for ME it was not there.

[charsace]

Welcome to a closed marketplace.

There have always been closed market places on pc. Steam is one of them.

[D3RANG3D]

Sorry, I know where it was supposed to be. But for ME it was not there.

c:\windows\explorer.exe

I am not talking about the one that is pinned by default on the desktop taskbar, but the one that is in c:\windows.

[watership]

There have always been closed market places on pc. Steam is one of them.

SHHHH!! Steam and Valve and Gabe are AWESOME!

[JaggedSac]

c:\windows\explorer.exe I am not talking about the one that is pinned by default on the desktop taskbar, but the one that is in c:\windows.

Oh, crikey, that one worked. I must have been trying it on the shortcut before. Did a search for windows explorer, then went to file location. Thanks dude.

[D3RANG3D]

Oh, crikey, that one worked. I must have been trying it on the shortcut before. Did a search for windows explorer, then went to file location. Thanks dude.

No problem.

[StudioTan]

I have to say I admire you, I couldn't stomach it after a couple of days. Did you try and do some work inside Metro or did you just ignore it and use the desktop instead?

So wait. You're making it sound like using the desktop is somehow using the OS wrong and against MS's wishes. You're SUPPOSED to be using the desktop on a desktop PC. The main function of Metro on desktop is as a launcher. Now, there are some cool Metro apps that work well on a desktop PC and we will see better and better Metro apps in the future but you're acting like using the desktop is somehow admitting defeat for....something.

Did you futz around with the Metro stuff for a couple of days and assume that was what the OS was?

[alexandros]

What Metro apps were you needing information from as part of a workflow?

To give you the simplest and most common example: Email app, Instant messaging app, Microsoft Office.

Windows 8 will be fine. This is a bunch of fear mongering to get gamers to fret on their behalf against Microsoft for nothing.

Who are you referring to with "their behalf"? Are you saying that there's a conspiracy to badmouth Windows 8 and these devs are in on it?

There have always been closed market places on pc. Steam is one of them.

The Windows Store is the only store allowed within Metro.

Did you futz around with the Metro stuff for a couple of days and assume that was what the OS was?

You do know the meaning of the word "experimenting", right? I wanted to figure out what Metro brings to the desktop, why Microsoft is making it mandatory for every copy of Windows 8. Honestly, I couldn't find a single reason.

[derFeef]

To me Metro is an advanced startmenu with more information if you want it. But I agree that there should be an option of where to boot into.

[Mudkips]

The Windows Store is the only store allowed within Metro.

The Steam Store is the only store allowed within Steam.

[alexandros]

To me Metro is an advanced startmenu with more information if you want it. But I agree that there should be an option of where to boot into.

Actually, I'd prefer if Microsoft had taken things further and fully unified Metro with the desktop. Both modes have their uses and Metro is quite effective as a touch UI. Why not merge the two organically, with tweaks here and there that accomodate specific usage scenarios? For instance, enable the use of Metro apps in a windows and not full screen. Allow more than two metro apps on screen at a time if the computer has a sufficiently high-resolution screen. And of course, allow anyone to create a store or publish a program on Metro.

As it stands now, Metro and the desktop are two halves of a real OS, awkwardly cobbled together. I do want a truly unified OS, one that I can use on both a tablet and a desktop. What I don't want is that rushed Frankestein of an OS that Windows 8 clearly is.

The Steam Store is the only store allowed within Steam.

You really don't see the difference, do you?

[StudioTan]

You do know the meaning of the word "experimenting", right? I wanted to figure out what Metro brings to the desktop, why Microsoft is making it mandatory for every copy of Windows 8. Honestly, I couldn't find a single reason.

I know the meaning of "experimenting", do you know the meaning of "evolution"?

Desktop PCs are the not the only kind of personal computers these days. You have desktops, laptops, tablets and whole host of hybrids. Metro is designed as a UI to allow for function and efficiency on any PC platform.

You can't say "let's have one UI on a desktop and one UI on a tablet" when you can dock a tablet, plug in a keyboard and mouse and it's now a desktop. The Metro UI is designed to make using touch, trackpads and k/m equally viable and user friendly.

You mentioned trying email and messaging and determining via those unfinished preview apps that Metro is useless. Well here are some of the advantages:

Faster access to programs - more tiles on screen plus muscle memory and our ability to scan and pinpoint visual information quickly means you can launch stuff faster than the Start menu
Faster and easier access to your friends and colleagues - since you can pin people to your Start screen you are always 3 mouse clicks away from sending a message, email or call
Faster access to information - unified search means you can search through apps (like Wikipedia), messages, mail and more in one interface quickly and easily
Information at a glance - live tiles display up to date information for things that are relevant to you

Anyway, I'll leave it at that, I'm sure nothing I say will convince you of anything. You did experiment with it for a couple of days after all whereas I've only been using it as my daily OS for about 6 months.

[Monumental]

The funny thing is that "power users" are the ones who have such trouble seeing the benefits of thousands of little tweaks that make the OS better, yet will complain about one extra click to go to the desktop or hitting down on the keyboard to cycle through search fields.

I mean, just such minor shit that it's not even worth responding to anymore.

[kruis]

The Steam Store is the only store allowed within Steam.

Groan.

[MrNyarlathotep]

You can't say "let's have one UI on a desktop and one UI on a tablet" when you can dock a tablet, plug in a keyboard and mouse and it's now a desktop.

What? That's a logical non-sequitur.

Of course you can say that.
The vast majority of usage cases are one or the other, not a hybrid.

That's like saying "music player" should be the default state of all phones because all phones can play music, and hey, it's not that big a deal to have to go to 'other phone apps' everytime you want to use your phone as something that's not a music player, so there's not even any reason to not have your phone always in music player mode.

[MaulerX]

I've been using Windows 8 for six months. I have seen apps in the W8 app store that are not metro (traditional desktop). They take you to the web page and have you install them the traditional way (again, from within the W8 app store).

Also, I have Steam on my W8 machine and I can tell you that not only does it have a traditional icon on the desktop, but also has a tile within the metro interface. In fact, I have the Steam tile right next to the W8 app Store tile. When you click on the metro style Steam tile, it automatically opens Steam in desktop mode.

I just don't see what the big deal is.

[PubbyMcbrosef]

Didn't MS make the free version of visual studio only able to development Metro apps? That's step 1 right there, and leads credence to the above poster who said that, in the future and not necessarily in W8, Microsoft wants to stop that and start getting some royalties coming their way.

No, both c#sharp express and c++ express compile into regular exe's that simply require the .net framework it was compiled on.

[yn-neko hates a cat]

I'm not aware of any .NET, silverlight or XNA developers particularly happy about it either.

I'm not sure why .Net and Silverlight people would care.

[alexandros]

Desktop PCs are the not the only kind of personal computers these days. You have desktops, laptops, tablets and whole host of hybrids. Metro is designed as a UI to allow for function and efficiency on any PC platform.

Oh I know that, I've had my eye on Asus's Transformer Book ever since it was announced. I agree that the basic idea behind Windows 8 is very cool and I do want to see it realized properly. Windows 8 doesn't do that. It's at best an interim solution, an awkward stop-gap by Microsoft to ensure that Apple doesn't gain even more market share. Plus I strongly object to the closed nature of Metro in regards to the distribution of apps.

[Chev]

No, both c#sharp express and c++ express compile into regular exe's that simply require the .net framework it was compiled on.

Yes, but only because they backpedaled after trying to restrict express to metro apps.

[Mammoth Jones]

Who are you referring to with "their behalf"? Are you saying that there's a conspiracy to badmouth Windows 8 and these devs are in on it?

I'm saying companies like Steam are preemptively bitching about the Windows App Store shutting them out of business and/or competing with them for sales. Which they obviously don't want.

Seems pretty obvious. Steam will be fine.