[grumble]

It's definitely difficult to convey tone in Internet discussions, and after re-reading my post it may have come off as brash, that was not my intention. I can see that you genuinely don't understand the controversy, and that's fine, I was just hoping to convey our position in a reasonable manner after all the 'dick cheese/mutilation' posts. It's also important to note that this procedure that is performed without consent carries health risks. Orayn posted the numbers earlier and they were something like 2-10% (complications ranging from penile damage to extreme cases that can result in death). These can admittedly be reduced if practiced by a professional in the proper environment, yet their is still a risk and we are still talking about irreversible modification to a non-consenting person.

Two points about your (somewhat silly) post:

1. The risk of 'complications' for circumcision is due almost entirely to minor bleeding, which stops when pressure is applied. Think of any small cut. 2-10% (from Wikipedia) is only one guess; another one (also from Wikipedia) is 0.2-0.6%. The complication rate is astronomically low.

2. Parents decide all the time what is in the best interests of their child. That is their JOB as parents. By making choices throughout the child's life, they will cause intentional and unintentional changes in the child's physical and psychological development.

Personally I don't really care about circumcision, but I want an honest debate about this, incorporating a few things:

1. A realistic complication rate
2. Real health benefits or disadvantages
3. Real evidence of changed sexual satisfaction (check Wikipedia, the results are totally mixed up so I'm sure supporters of either side will have plenty to arm themselves with).
4. Avoidance of silliness about 'trauma' a newborn suffers from an extremely minor procedure relative to the rest of their time as a newborn with an undeveloped brain.

[Devolution]

put that thing away! it frightens me

[Wickerbasket]

Uncut dudes seem more sensitive in a lot of ways

It's because they have more nerves on their dicks. Or did I ruin the joke, I'm terrible at noticing jokes.

[Dai101]

As a male that was circumcised as adult I can confirm that the feeling during sex is the same as before, however it looks a lot better, easier to maintain and girls seem to like it a hell of a lot more. I'm not complaining.

Yeah. It's a hassle pull that damn skin...

[Mackenzie 92]

I agree that circumcision is better, but I think they are overestimating the problems and potential cost. Hygiene and safe sex plays a much bigger role in my opinion.

[Rentahamster]

They wanted someone to say that. Family Feud is run by a bunch of tricksters. "We asked 100 men, name a part of your body that is bigger now then it was when you were 16." Cmon, that's like begging for it.

Steve Harvey don't like the word "penis", either.

[Az987]

put that thing away! it frightens me

That's what she said!

Er.. Wait a minute...

[Bulbo Urethral Baggins]

Alright thats it. Sword fight, right now. Lets go! I'll take all of you no-skinners on at the same time.

I'm not going head to head with you. You've got a helmet on. Not fair.

[Beerman462]

How does an uncircumcised penis see where it's going?

[Unknown Fighter Type II]

4. Avoidance of silliness about 'trauma' a newborn suffers from an extremely minor procedure relative to the rest of their time as a newborn with an undeveloped brain.

Slow down there chief. If you keep going along this train of thought, you'll soon find yourself in congressman "Todd Akin" territory. The ignorance of your statement is astounding.

Fortunately for newborns, the 1980's marked a turning point of sorts. They don't do open heart surgery on neonatal infants without anesthesia anymore. They assumed at the time that their lack of development meant no pain. Just paralyze them and cut them open.

You're point about avoiding "silliness" in regards to the topic at hand is laughable. Circumcision isn't heart surgery...but the former procedure is medically unneccessary 99% of the time to begin with. Yeah, let's just assume they don't remember the pain of having their penis crushed and cut without anesthetics....for nothing.

Go watch the procedure done on the tube...minor procedure my ass.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_babies

[Laughing Banana]

Yes I have a girlfriend. Relevant, how?

I take it as Devolution putting up a sign of "So don't bother me anymore please" for you to read, hahaha.

As I am in a place where everybody pretty much accept circumcision as something that is must be done, this thread has been a pretty interesting read.

[nVidiot_Whore]

I take it as Devolution putting up a sign of "So don't bother me anymore please" for you to read, hahaha.

Yeah. I assume it's a passive aggressive way of suggesting somehow I'm only giving her attention because she's a female.

She complained about people not reading her posts, and then spouted blatant lies about the responses people gave her. It's rude and she's a troll. To turn around and try to hide behind her vagina in a conversation is hypocritical and just downright offensive.

But it's the last time I'll talk about how obnoxious your posts are Devolution. No need to beat a dead horse.

[Porthos]

Just curious, are most of the pro-circumcision Gaffers here Muslim?

The World Health Organization has estimated that 664,500,000 males aged 15 and over are circumcised (30% global prevalence), with almost 70% of these being Muslim

[OldAsUrSock]

It seems as though un-cut people say all of the time how much better the sexual experience is when you are cut. While the un-cut say all of the health benefits or say that the sex is not as worse as the un-cut make it out to be.

For me I do not care about what is cut down there.

[Staccat0]

My mom literally told me that she got me circumcised, because when she was a young lady and snuck looks at dirty magazines it was all she'd ever seen. When she got older, the first time she saw an uncut dick it grossed her out. She didn't want me to go through that.

My mom is weird.

I think it is objectively a silly and weird ritual (circumcision) but I also don't really MIND being circumcised and i certainly seems like the alternative is just one more layer of whatever to deal with in life, so I don't care?

[Devolution]

Yeah. I assume it's a passive aggressive way of suggesting somehow I'm only giving her attention because she's a female. She complained about people not reading her posts, and then spouted blatant lies about the responses people gave her. It's rude and she's a troll. To turn around and try to hide behind her vagina in a conversation is hypocritical and just downright offensive. But it's the last time I'll talk about how obnoxious your posts are Devolution. No need to beat a dead horse.

[Pizarro]

As an uncut I don't see the big deal with circumcision.

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Just curious, are most of the pro-circumcision Gaffers here Muslim?

No, most of them are American.

[Orayn]

As an uncut I don't see the big deal with circumcision.

Me neither. Get one if you want, just don't make the choice for an unconsenting infant.

[MWS Natural]

I enjoy my circumcision, my girlfriend prefers it, and when I showed her an uncircumcised one on the internet, she was severely grossed out. So, basically, I like mine, my gf likes mine, and our kids be like mine. So I guess they'll be in the minority.

Had the same conversation this evening with my girlfriend. Showed her some pics on the net of uncircumcised dicks and she freaked out. Coming from a Muslim country to America she has never seen one in person .

[boutdown]

Dick cheese

[IceCold]

Had the same conversation this evening with my girlfriend. Showed her some pics on the net of uncircumcised dicks and she freaked out. Coming from a Muslim country to America she has never seen one in person .

An erect penis looks practically the same as an uncut one though.

[J2 Cool]

What kind of bullshit is this, Virtually the rest of the world is uncircumcised. Its only majorly popular in USA, Souteast asia and the muslim world. You think the rest of us don't get BJ's ? Enjoy your less sensitive penises. Inb4Itscleanerhurrdurr

You act like we stuck the middle finger up to you guys, and enjoy it. Everybody's just living with the choice their parents decided to make or didn't make.

The whole money thing, really shouldn't be an issue. It should be covered as a pretty strongheld tradition, but I can't think of a reason why it shouldn't be phased out for anyone who wants to. I think the tough part for males who begin to change the tide, will be the slower acceptance. But I know I was pissed when I found out my penis was chopped without my consent. I think at least it looks better, but it might just be familiarity. Sensitivity, morally as a choice - uncircumscized wins.

[nVidiot_Whore]

I feel like many of the Americans here are going out of there way to point out the bias is largely manufactured. It's not meant to be an assault on cultures where circumcision is not predominant to tell stories of American women reacting negatively to un-circumcised penises. It's a real thing and as it's been pointed out, it's simply due to lack of familiarity and expectations.

[Callo Merlose]

Pull back skin, wash. Done. Do you also have issues with washing your arse?

I don't have a foreskin. I don't have a dick. Don't be so hyperdefensive. I don't really care for cut cocks.

[PezDispenser]

It's an interesting argument, because on one hand, uncircumcised men can reap the benefits of vastly improved quality and duration of orgasms for both partners, prehensile abilities, and are guaranteed to never become impotent, whereas circumcised men have VIP status in the afterlife and are immune to all diseases during their time on earth. I only know one thing for sure - we should definitely all keep fighting about it.

[HurricaneJesus]

It is wrong to mutilate the genitals of children.

As for HIV, how about not fucking someone with AIDS? How about using a condom? Don't mutilate children just because you are too retarded to protect yourself.

My female partners have never been bothered by my uncut cock, and always end up with a new understanding and appreciation for it.

As many nerve endings in the head of the penis as there are in a woman's clit. Why the fuck would you cut off the protective covering?

Smegma? I guess we should cut off women's labia so they don't get any smegma build-up in their coochies.

Fucking idiots thinking they have the right to mutilate a child.

[Souless_PJ]

I haven't read the whole thread so Im not trying to fuel the flames but has there been any significant survey published amongst women with different pictures etc as to which they prefer the look of. I mean there is a reason 99% of porn has cut penises. It simply looks nicer aesthetically?

[Beerman462]

It's an interesting argument, because on one hand, uncircumcised men can reap the benefits of vastly improved quality and duration of orgasms for both partners, prehensile abilities, and are guaranteed to never become impotent, whereas circumcised men have VIP status in the afterlife and are immune to all diseases during their time on earth. I only know one thing for sure - we should definitely all keep fighting about it.

[milanbaros]

I haven't read the whole thread so Im not trying to fuel the flames but has there been any significant survey published amongst women with different pictures etc as to which they prefer the look of. I mean there is a reason 99% of porn has cut penises. It simply looks nicer aesthetically?

I think you're confused.

[B-Dex]

I prefer cut ones myself.

Half the time uncut guys don't know how to clean themselves. (personal experience)

But they do look the same when erect pretty much.

[Souless_PJ]

I think you're confused.

How am I confused. I think that cut looks nicer and the porn industry agrees. I was asking if any sort of definitive survey had been conducted over the years that confirmed women's preferences either way.

[milanbaros]

How am I confused. I think that cut looks nicer and the porn industry agrees. I was asking if any sort of definitive survey had been conducted over the years that confirmed women's preferences either way.

Sorry, I was talking about your 99% comment.

[Ledsen]

How am I confused. I think that cut looks nicer and the porn industry agrees. I was asking if any sort of definitive survey had been conducted over the years that confirmed women's preferences either way.

I'm pretty sure it's just Americans. Erect penises look basically the same cut or uncut, so I don't know how you could say one or the other looks better in porn.

[numble]

I haven't read the whole thread so Im not trying to fuel the flames but has there been any significant survey published amongst women with different pictures etc as to which they prefer the look of. I mean there is a reason 99% of porn has cut penises. It simply looks nicer aesthetically?

Does 99% of the porn you watch show non-erect penises? That's the only way you could conclude that 99% of porn has circumcised penises.

[Souless_PJ]

Lol ah ok I wasn't aware that it was nigh impossible to tell once erect. I presumed you still had to pull back the skin somewhat. Carry on gentlemen.

[Atrus]

I haven't read the whole thread so Im not trying to fuel the flames but has there been any significant survey published amongst women with different pictures etc as to which they prefer the look of. I mean there is a reason 99% of porn has cut penises. It simply looks nicer aesthetically?

Actually, most pornography conveyed in English is primarily directed at older predominantly heterosexual White male consumers, hence why non-white groups are treated as a fetish.

It's unlikely that such subject matter was therefore created with the interests of women in mind, though many do find value in what is produced, likely from the similarity in relationships or motivators.

Factor that the US produces a significant amount of pornography for the English speaking world or world in general and you'll find an over-representation of actual circumcision. However, since an erect penis looks the same regardless of whether or not you are circumcised, it also adds to the over-representation, as with European pornography where the men should be predominantly uncut but appear cut because being erect is what they're paid for.

[questionmark]

Not completely off topic but kinda, penis is such an awful word. Vagina isn't much better though.

Vajayjay

[J2 Cool]

I disagree, penis is fine as a word. Cock seems unnecessarily agressive, but penis is all about context. There's nothing disturbing about a guy saying, "- so I told him I'm sold out, and he punched me in the penis, man!". Just hilarious.

Vagina would probably be milder funny in the same context, it's less talked about, more kept secret. Something like Urethra is an awful word though, not penis and vagina. Just stop being a pussy about using them.

[tsumineko]

Dick cheese, seriously? Do you people really believe uncircumcised people don't clean up down there?

You know what I find most alarming? Is that some circumcised people believe they *don't* get "dick cheese" as well, and so probably *don't* clean up down there themselves. Oh god...

[Steelrain]

You know what I find most alarming? Is that some circumcised people believe they *don't* get "dick cheese" as well, and so probably *don't* clean up down there themselves. Oh god...

I'm sure that happens....in your mind.

[Trent Strong]

It is wrong to mutilate the genitals of children. As for HIV, how about not fucking someone with AIDS? How about using a condom? Don't mutilate children just because you are too retarded to protect yourself. My female partners have never been bothered by my uncut cock, and always end up with a new understanding and appreciation for it. As many nerve endings in the head of the penis as there are in a woman's clit. Why the fuck would you cut off the protective covering? Smegma? I guess we should cut off women's labia so they don't get any smegma build-up in their coochies. Fucking idiots thinking they have the right to mutilate a child.

You'd think I'd be mad that I was mutilated as a child. I mean, being mutilated is pretty bad. You'd think I'd go hunt down the doctor that mutilated me and burn his house down or something, because, hey, we're talking mutilation here. I don't think a court would even convict me if I burned down that doctor's house, because the guy mutilated me. And yet, the strange thing is, I...don't even care that I was mutilated as a child. In fact, I'm glad that I was mutilated as a child, I'm much better off for this mutilation and if I could go back in time to the time I was an infant, I'd go ahead and get mutilated all over again. Pretty strange, that I'd want to mutilate myself and that I'm glad I was mutilated. I mean, this is mutilation we're talking about here, so that's pretty shocking. Huh.

[Kong Fisso]

I prefer circumsized women.

If I take home a woman and she is uncircumsized I tell her to take her ugly shit and walk her nasty ass home instead of wasting my time.

[Scrow]

I'm uncircumcised and I don't really care for blow jobs. Am I like the only guy to ever say that?

blow jobs are nice when you're feeling lazy and just want to get a load off with minimal effort

but i agree. intercourse is far more pleasurable

i'm uncircumcised

You'd think I'd be mad that I was mutilated as a child. I mean, being mutilated is pretty bad. You'd think I'd go hunt down the doctor that mutilated me and burn his house down or something, because, hey, we're talking mutilation here. I don't think a court would even convict me if I burned down that doctor's house, because the guy mutilated me. And yet, the strange thing is, I...don't even care that I was mutilated as a child. In fact, I'm glad that I was mutilated as a child, I'm much better off for this mutilation and if I could go back in time to the time I was an infant, I'd go ahead and get mutilated all over again. Pretty strange, that I'd want to mutilate myself and that I'm glad I was mutilated. I mean, this is mutilation we're talking about here, so that's pretty shocking. Huh.

thousands of years of societal conditioning will make you think like that

[Phantast2k]

I prefer circumsized women. If I take home a woman and she is uncircumsized I tell her to take her ugly shit and walk her nasty ass home instead of wasting my time.

True dat. I like my women numb. No need for cunnilingus either. Labia grosses me out anyways..

Might go bride shopping in Egypt soon:
Female genital mutilation rife in Egypt despite ban

Astonishingly, in 21st Century Egypt, the latest figures suggest that more than 90% of the women have been subject to female genital mutilation (FGM). The figure comes from a Unicef approved survey carried out in 2008, the year that the practice was banned.

Altough that might not suffice my mutilation thirst..



Mhh, Musri Mursi chicks
/edit
She lacks the lip plate there. My point is: male circumcision is just an archaic ritual.

[Kurtofan]

Just curious, are most of the pro-circumcision Gaffers here Muslim?

How do gaffers feel about supporting a religious practice?

[Trent Strong]

blow jobs are nice when you're feeling lazy and just want to get a load off with minimal effort but i agree. intercourse is far more pleasurable i'm uncircumcised thousands of years of societal conditioning will make you think like that

Well, I'm American, so my society has only been around for a couple of hundred years or so. And half of my ancestors come from Germany, and the other half England, and I don't know what Germany and England were doing in the 1800's as far as circumcisions were concerned.

[Scrow]

Well, I'm American, so my society has only been around for a couple of hundred years or so. And half of my ancestors come from Germany, and the other half England, and I don't know what Germany and England were doing in the 1800's as far as circumcisions were concerned.

oh, no no no...

i thought you were thousands of years old

[AnathemicOne]

So I'm part of cut-GAF, been that way since birth.

I'm also an ex-Catholic and am aware that this procedure has religious connotations associated with it.

My opinion? I'm pretty glad I was circumcised at brith. It looks better to me, don't have to worry about an extra layer of skin, and enables me to last longer in sex. And the major plus is that I don't have to get this procedure during adulthood, I couldn't imagine the pain I'd have to endure.

[Grim1ock]

So I'm part of cut-GAF, been that way since birth. I'm also an ex-Catholic and am aware that this procedure has religious connotations associated with it. My opinion? I'm pretty glad I was circumcised at brith. It looks better to me, don't have to worry about an extra layer of skin, and enables me to last longer in sex. And the major plus is that I don't have to get this procedure during adulthood, I couldn't imagine the pain I'd have to endure.

I agree. My cousins were circumscsied at 10 and it was not a pleasant experience. That's why most muslims have their boys circumcised at birth as it's easy and straight forward as you get.