[gate777]

I just read the red wedding chapter again through my yearly re-read. It still hurts like the first time :'(

[PhoenixPause]

I never get the Cersei hate in AFFC. Her chapters are amazing, and in hindsight are even more interesting now that ADWD is out. Both books, which at one time were one, feature a lot of thematic focus on leadership. In both books we're presented with the reign of Cersei, Jon Snow, and Dany - and each of which fails to varying degrees.

[tmdorsey]

I never get the Cersei hate in AFFC. Her chapters are amazing, and in hindsight are even more interesting now that ADWD is out. Both books, which at one time were one, feature a lot of thematic focus on leadership. In both books we're presented with the reign of Cersei, Jon Snow, and Dany - and each of which fails to varying degrees.

Her chapters were interesting in the sense that it was like watching a trainwreck being able to read her thoughts and see first hand what a terrible "ruler" she was.

[Veelk]

It's a startling contrast really. Dany ruined things because she was too generous and kindhearted while Cersei was too cold and self serving.

[_Keiichi_]

PROMISE ME NED

[Massa]

It's a startling contrast really. Dany ruined things because she was too generous and kindhearted while Cersei was too cold and self serving.

The good rulers are supposed to die so the two at least have that going for them, they both suck.

[rando14]

Her chapters were interesting in the sense that it was like watching a trainwreck being able to read her thoughts and see first hand what a terrible "ruler" she was.

Bingo. She's a complete disaster, which makes her chapters fun to read.

[Veelk]

The good rulers are supposed to die so the two at least have that going for them, they both suck.

They didn't fair much better. Cersei had to do the walk of shame and she's never going to rule again. Dany was all but kicked out of the city.

[PhoenixPause]

It's a startling contrast really. Dany ruined things because she was too generous and kindhearted while Cersei was too cold and self serving.

I don't think Dany was too generous, per se. She essentially crash landed into a completely new society/culture and refused to respect or acknowledge many of their laws. Banning slavery made sense from a moral perspective, but was carried out so idealistically that it became a bloody mess to implement. Similarly she refused to re-open the fighting pits for no decent reason, which earned her even more resentment.

In terms of Jon, he willingly surrounded himself with dissenters by sending all his friends away, and didn't seem to articulate his Wildling plan well enough. And of course he blatantly broke his vows towards the end, which was the final straw.

Cersei simply ruined everything she touched. She seemed somewhat competent in the first three books, at least to a certain degree (lol), yet completely lost it after Joffery's death. I don't believe the ACOK/early ASOS Cersei would have let Taena Merryweather get so close to her for instance, given her Tyrell connections. Interestingly we won't know just how much Cersei fucked up for awhile. Was Dragonstone really taken? Where did Waters take her newly built fleet? Will Merryweather come forward as a witness during the upcoming trials? etc. She is sooo boned lol

[Veelk]

I don't think Dany was too generous, per se. She essentially crash landed into a completely new society/culture and refused to respect or acknowledge many of their laws. Banning slavery made sense from a moral perspective, but was carried out so idealistically that it became a bloody mess to implement. Similarly she refused to re-open the fighting pits for no decent reason, which earned her even more resentment.

The fighting pits are backed by the same moral logic that she had in banning slavery: They were basically making people fight to the death for entertainment. Even if some were willing, I'm guessing many were not or had to resort to it through desperation.

In terms of Jon, he willingly surrounded himself with dissenters by sending all his friends away, and didn't seem to articulate his Wildling plan well enough. And of course he blatantly broke his vows towards the end, which was the final straw.

This wasn't actually dumb. The alternative was to send them away to other castles, where they could disobey him at their leisure. He needed people who'd listen to man those walls. His problem, in my opinion, is that he followed Ned's advice and stopped being a friend to his people, so they began to view him coldly. We know he respected Bowen because we're in his head, but Bowen just thought he was an asshole through and through. And remember that the main reason he failed is because he could not convince the watch to not be racist towards the Wildlings.

Cersei simply ruined everything she touched. She seemed somewhat competent in the first three books, at least to a certain degree (lol), yet completely lost it after Joffery's death. I don't believe the ACOK/early ASOS Cersei would have let Taena Merryweather get so close to her for instance, given her Tyrell connections. Interestingly we won't know just how much Cersei fucked up for awhile. Was Dragonstone really taken? Where did Waters take her newly built fleet? Will Merryweather come forward as a witness during the upcoming trials? etc. She is sooo boned lol

Yeah, Cersei sucked beyond all hope.

[bluemax]

I don't think Dany was too generous, per se. She essentially crash landed into a completely new society/culture and refused to respect or acknowledge many of their laws. Banning slavery made sense from a moral perspective, but was carried out so idealistically that it became a bloody mess to implement. Similarly she refused to re-open the fighting pits for no decent reason, which earned her even more resentment. In terms of Jon, he willingly surrounded himself with dissenters by sending all his friends away, and didn't seem to articulate his Wildling plan well enough. And of course he blatantly broke his vows towards the end, which was the final straw. Cersei simply ruined everything she touched. She seemed somewhat competent in the first three books, at least to a certain degree (lol), yet completely lost it after Joffery's death. I don't believe the ACOK/early ASOS Cersei would have let Taena Merryweather get so close to her for instance, given her Tyrell connections. Interestingly we won't know just how much Cersei fucked up for awhile. Was Dragonstone really taken? Where did Waters take her newly built fleet? Will Merryweather come forward as a witness during the upcoming trials? etc. She is sooo boned lol

Yeah Cersei in AFFC is sort of, I dunno, frustrating? Like I read her chapters and I go, what was her end game when she conspired to kill Robert? Was it simply to raise Joffrey to king?

It felt like she had all these plans and schemes and then we get to book 4 and suddenly she's just mind bogglingly incompetent.

[Veelk]

Keep in mind that Cersei's delusions went deep. Even if she seemed passingly competent before AFFC, she thought that Joffrey was a perfectly reasonable boy. "Robert beat him over some silliness with a cat." she said spitefully at one time. That 'silliness' was him cutting open the stomach of a pregnant cat and taking out the fetus' to show Robert.

[Basileus777]

I never get the Cersei hate in AFFC. Her chapters are amazing, and in hindsight are even more interesting now that ADWD is out. Both books, which at one time were one, feature a lot of thematic focus on leadership. In both books we're presented with the reign of Cersei, Jon Snow, and Dany - and each of which fails to varying degrees.

Maggie the Frog was an awful plot device, and the way GRRM handled all of that was very clumsy.

[ZeroRay]

I think the difference between Cersei in the first three books compared with the later two can be attributed to a combination of grief, arrogance, the opportunity to finally rule without opposition, and the fact that the main players (Varys, Littlefinger) weren't directly working against her during Robert's/Joffrey's reign.

[Nlroh]

I think the difference between Cersei in the first three books compared with the later two can be attributed to a combination of grief, arrogance, the opportunity to finally rule without opposition, and the fact that the main players (Varys, Littlefinger) weren't directly working against her during Robert's/Joffrey's reign.

We should also consider that her son and father died.

[suzu]

I hate Cersei, but I liked reading her chapters. haha.

[Veelk]

Maggie the Frog was an awful plot device, and the way GRRM handled all of that was very clumsy.

I liked it if for no other reason than that it added another dimension to Cersei, though it possibly removed the last shred of her humanity.

She loved her children. That was her only positive quality. Now you find out about the prophecy and it's possible to interpret that the only reason she cares for them is because her well being depends on theirs. If they die, then she dies, so she wants to protect them.

[Atolm]

They didn't fair much better. Cersei had to do the walk of shame and she's never going to rule again. Dany was all but kicked out of the city.

You think so? I know what Kevan says, but who's going to rule? The Tyrells? The king is a Lannister.

[Pkaz01]

You think so? I know what Kevan says, but who's going to rule? The Tyrells? The king is a Lannister.

Maergery is probably just going to control him and tell him what to do, so pretty much the tyrells. Unless cersei makes a power grab using robert strong and varys pulls some strings to get her crazy ass back in control so she can fuck things up even more.


Another possibility is the new high septon pretty much running the show and pulling a religion vs king power struggle

[Puddles]

Why is GRRM working on other projects that aren't TWOW? He needs to finish that shit first.

[Basileus777]

Why is GRRM working on other projects that aren't TWOW? He needs to finish that shit first.

He can't wait 4 years before working on the other things he's committed to doing.

[CassSept]

Why is GRRM working on other projects that aren't TWOW? He needs to finish that shit first.

Because the world can't wait for new Wild Cards, to hell with ASoIaF

[Tim the Wiz]

Hey, I'm sure there are plenty Wild Cards fans somewhere out there, in places we don't know, in populated numbers we might be shocked over, saying the exact opposite. "Quit this Song of Ice and Fire lark, get cracking with more Wild Cards, GRRM!" Or not.

[BenjaminBirdie]

Hey, I'm sure there are plenty Wild Cards fans somewhere out there, in places we don't know, in populated numbers we might be shocked over, saying the exact opposite. "Quit this Song of Ice and Fire lark, get cracking with more Wild Cards, GRRM!" Or not.

Obviously he wants to bring it into the forefront and ride his GoT prominence to another big franchise. He puts out a new WC book now that GoT is massif, everyone reads it, he gets another adaptation series deal, $_$

Seems obvious to me at least.

[jayb]

Hey, I'm sure there are plenty Wild Cards fans somewhere out there, in places we don't know, in populated numbers we might be shocked over, saying the exact opposite. "Quit this Song of Ice and Fire lark, get cracking with more Wild Cards, GRRM!" Or not.

well there's at least one: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291868

[gutshot]

I don't mind that he is writing the World book. I've been waiting for the World book longer than Dance. I also don't mind him writing Dunk & Egg since those stories are awesome, and this one in particular sounds great. Other than that, yeah, he needs to be writing Winds.

[Necrovex]

I never get the Cersei hate in AFFC. Her chapters are amazing, and in hindsight are even more interesting now that ADWD is out. Both books, which at one time were one, feature a lot of thematic focus on leadership. In both books we're presented with the reign of Cersei, Jon Snow, and Dany - and each of which fails to varying degrees.

I don't hate Cersei's chapters as much as other people do. Sometime, I don't understand the hatred, I may hate her, but her chapters are fun to read because she is batshit insane.

[Veelk]

well there's at least one: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291868

Wow, a real life case of forever alone

[Necrovex]

Wow, a real life case of forever alone

That's almost depressing.

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

well there's at least one: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291868

Awww, poor guy. The only non - Ice and Fire GRRM book I've read is Fevre Dream, and it was alright.

[Veelk]

I've read some of his short stories. A Song for Lya and Sandkings were both excellent. Ice Dragon was pretty good too. Did GRRM ever mention ice dragons in ASOIAF? Because if so, they might be like the ones described in that short story. Which would make things...interesting.

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

I've read some of his short stories. A Song for Lya and Sandkings were both excellent. Ice Dragon was pretty good too. Did GRRM ever mention ice dragons in ASOIAF? Because if so, they might be like the ones described in that short story. Which would make things...interesting.

Don't think so. But they may show up now that winter has come and the others are doing shit.

[Tim the Wiz]

Obviously he wants to bring it into the forefront and ride his GoT prominence to another big franchise. He puts out a new WC book now that GoT is massif, everyone reads it, he gets another adaptation series deal, $_$ Seems obvious to me at least.

Haha, maybe. I doubt it though. It's frustrating definitely, but he's been editing Wild Cards since the 80s and its content is obviously never going to be mainstream. The sf/f community can be pretty insular and I'm sure he's doing it to please his clique and OG fans who were following him pre-Song of Ice and Fire. It's a shared-universe series based on a RPG campaign so I bet the sense of community around it makes it a personal project for him. Wish he'd just acknowledge that ASoIaF has to get done first and let someone else hold its reigns for a while.

[Altazor]

I've read some of his short stories. A Song for Lya and Sandkings were both excellent. Ice Dragon was pretty good too. Did GRRM ever mention ice dragons in ASOIAF? Because if so, they might be like the ones described in that short story. Which would make things...interesting.

I don't think so, but he mentioned Ice Spiders which gives me the creeps, big time.

I don't even want to imagine them U_U

[gdt]

Jaime is such a boss throughout Feast. Punching Brienne's betrothed, and telling Peck to be kind to Pia. Fucking Jamie Lannister, who would've figured?

[Diablos54]

Jaime is such a boss throughout Feast. Punching Brienne's betrothed, and telling Peck to be kind to Pia. Fucking Jamie Lannister, who would've figured?

I sure as well didn't. When I started his POV's I thought I'd hate him, but Jamie is just too damn awesome to hate, even with only 1 hand.

[Wray]

Out of curiosity, does anybody remember how much it cost "in actual dragons/coins" to hire sellsword companies in Westeros or Essos? Like the Golden Company, Stormcrows, or Second Sons. I've been wondering why the warring houses never hired more than they did in the books.

[PhoenixPause]

Jaime is such a boss throughout Feast. Punching Brienne's betrothed, and telling Peck to be kind to Pia. Fucking Jamie Lannister, who would've figured?

And it's not done in a convoluted manner, or rushed in a manner that makes it unbelievable. The transition is gradual and makes perfect sense

[LuchaShaq]

Out of curiosity, does anybody remember how much it cost "in actual dragons/coins" to hire sellsword companies in Westeros or Essos? Like the Golden Company, Stormcrows, or Second Sons. I've been wondering why the warring houses never hired more than they did in the books.

Even the great houses don't have infinite wealth. Outside of the Tyrells and the Lannisters hiring the Golden Company would have hurt the pockets of the major houses even pretty hard.

Also Say you are Robb Stark fighting lannisters and manage to get enough coin to hire a big sell sword company. Odds are they will betray you for more money and all your banner men who mistrusted them will think you foolish as fuck if you even survive.

There are a shit ton of "free riders" who are essentially sell swords but less official and less organized than the groups in the east.

[Kenak]

I am current re-reading the series, and am working my way through Storm of Swords. In one of the Jon chapters, where they scale the wall, Ygrette says at the end of the chapter that they disturbed a bunch of graves looking for the horn of winter. But she also says they "let all of those shades loose into the world". Does this mean the Wildlings released the Others?

[Basileus777]

I am current re-reading the series, and am working my way through Storm of Swords. In one of the Jon chapters, where they scale the wall, Ygrette says at the end of the chapter that they disturbed a bunch of graves looking for the horn of winter. But she also says they "let all of those shades loose into the world". Does this mean the Wildlings released the Others?

The disturbed corpses probably became wights.

[Jezabel]

Re reading SOS, I found the chapter where Mormont died really chilling especially when the wives tell Sam to take Gilly and run because Crasters boys are coming.

[LAUGHTREY]

I am current re-reading the series, and am working my way through Storm of Swords. In one of the Jon chapters, where they scale the wall, Ygrette says at the end of the chapter that they disturbed a bunch of graves looking for the horn of winter. But she also says they "let all of those shades loose into the world". Does this mean the Wildlings released the Others?

Probably just a coincidence, or the others just raise the nearest corpses when they need to.


Still know next to nothing about them. What they came for, what they want, what woke them up again. Nadda.

[gdt]

So, for after my series read is done, which do I pick up next, Way of Kings, or The Name of the Wind?

[Veelk]

So, for after my series read is done, which do I pick up next, Way of Kings, or The Name of the Wind?

I only read the synopsis of Way of Kings, but it sounds like a very typical fantasy novel, so I'd go for Name of the Wind.

[Kenak]

The disturbed corpses probably became wights.

Do we have any other reference to the wildlings referring to the white walkers as shades? If they were just simple corpses, wouldn't they have burned them as to their tradition?

EDIT: Wait, I am kind of confused on the names for the others. We have the main Others, which aren't dead but ice creatures. Then we have the white walkers/wights, who are re-animated corpses?

[ezrarh]

So, for after my series read is done, which do I pick up next, Way of Kings, or The Name of the Wind?

Don't listen to what anybody says, Name of the Wind is bad.

[CrunchyB]

I am current re-reading the series, and am working my way through Storm of Swords. In one of the Jon chapters, where they scale the wall, Ygrette says at the end of the chapter that they disturbed a bunch of graves looking for the horn of winter. But she also says they "let all of those shades loose into the world". Does this mean the Wildlings released the Others?

They were pillaging the graves in order to escape the Others. So no, they did not release them.

The "Shades" Ygritte mentioned seemed like superstition to me. Disturbing a grave would be similar to breaking guest right. It is odd that the bodies were buried and not burned. Maybe that was just for plot purposes though, otherwise the Wildlings would have nowhere to search for the horn.

That whole Horn of Juramun business is fishy as hell btw. A ton of conflicting stories and accounts. Yet we know a magical dragonhorn exists. So we can't rule out the real Horn of Winter will still pop up somewhere.

[gdt]

I don't think I like this Lady Stoneheart business. It will lead to lots of despair for anyone who Catelyn had good relations with. Shes just a being of pure evil and vengenace at this point, it kind of shits on Catelyn. Maybe thats the point though.

Dollars to donuts, Arya kills Lady Stoneheart.

God, starting writing faster GRRM.

[moojito]

So, for after my series read is done, which do I pick up next, Way of Kings, or The Name of the Wind?

They're both excellent, but way of kings is more epic like soiaf. It depends if you want more of a similar grand type of thing or a change of pace, something more focussed on one person.