[Lothars]

Can anyone verify that people posted his real contact information? Did Ben actually see that post or is he just taking the toucharcade guys word for it?

I am still under the impression he took toucharcade's word for it because I still haven't seen any proof that it was ever posted here.

[toythatkills]

I am still under the impression he took toucharcade's word for it because I still haven't seen any proof that it was ever posted here.

Games journalism!!!

[gazele]

I would seriously hope no one would personally attack Eli and especially not his family, but to have opinions about his public persona which he chooses to put out there is perfectly fair.

The article definitely read strange to me, sorta reminded me of the polygon stuff in a way, like there's this misconception about how they are perceived vs how they view themselves. Also, the common trend of being condescending on twitter is not helping.

[Shurs]

I'm amazed that people in the games press don't think what they do is advertising.

Don't you review games?

You consider your work advertising?

[toythatkills]

Don't you review games? You consider your work advertising?

It's not a job but yeah, I do, and yeah, I do.

Or at least, I'm definitely there as an element of a game's marketing. When I review a good game and I rave about it, it's because I want people to buy it and play it. What is that if not advertising? Obviously I'm not being paid specifically to say that the game's good, but I'm clearly "advertising" the game. Game publishers see it that way or they wouldn't provide games for review, the only people who don't are "journalists" who want to think that what they do isn't PR when it basically is.

Of course, I review plenty of shit games as well but even then my role is still the same. I don't have any delusions of grandeur. I'm there because the publisher wants people to know about the game, that's it.

Go to any game website you like and all the news on it will have been provided by publishers. New trailers, new release dates, new games being announced, new features, whatever. It's not journalism, it's marketing. The publishers have something they want the press to write about, and the press writes it, and about 99% of the time that's all they do. Hey, it works and it's fine, but they shouldn't pretend they're something they're not.

[Wario64]

I am still under the impression he took toucharcade's word for it because I still haven't seen any proof that it was ever posted here.

I'm not even sure the whole family threat thing came from GAF

[Zeer0id]

I prefer to think of games reviewers as consumer aides rather than advertisers. Of course there is overlap, but the primary objective is to inform and assist the reader as opposed to the publisher.

If they manage to help on both sides of the business, well that's cool.

[Shaneus]

Don't you review games? You consider your work advertising?

Perhaps "publicity" is a more appropriate word. The request in the KS was asking for publicity, not advertising. So even though there's a fine line between marketing, advertising and publicity, there definitely is a difference.

PS. The only reference I could find in that article that accurately pointed to GAF becoming threatening was where some dude posted that he'd call the number on TA's website (or something). Pretty vague.

[FStop7]

hey guys http://penny-arcade.com/report/edito...rter-promotion

That’s why I was shocked when I, and other writers, received an email that offered us Kickstarter rewards in return for coverage of the Epic Skater campaign.

Kuchera's shocked by this?

Some of the press kits and goodies that get sent out to reviewers might as well be called bribe kits. He hadn't noticed any of this until it started happening through Kickstarter?

The Hodapp stuff I won't even touch but a large part of Kuchera's article is rank horseshit, fairly typcial VGJ apologist material.

[JABEE]

Easier to call out little KickStarter #22 for bribes than EA or Ubisoft. He wouldn't do that because the PA boys get the big bucks from them through co-marketing comics and their convention.

"Bribery" in games journalism isn't a KickStarter issue. Kuchera decided that little upstart game makers was the time to draw the line. Pick on some goliaths if you want to flex and show off your integrity.

[coopolon]

I prefer to think of games reviewers as consumer aides rather than advertisers. Of course there is overlap, but the primary objective is to inform and assist the reader as opposed to the publisher. If they manage to help on both sides of the business, well that's cool.

This might be the ideal, but the reality is a far cry from that. Skyrim PS3 is an obvious example, reviewers couldn't have cared less about assisting their readers in that situation.

[THE NO LIFE KING]

That article was a joke.

[JABEE]

Kuchera's shocked by this? Some of the press kits and goodies that get sent out to reviewers might as well be called bribe kits. He hadn't noticed any of this until it started happening through Kickstarter? The Hodapp stuff I won't even touch but a large part of Kuchera's article is rank horseshit, fairly typcial VGJ apologist material.

It appears according to Kuchera it is okay to do this as long as the publisher doesn't blatantly tell him how and what to cover. It's a weird line to draw, and I think it would make a good new thread.

[toythatkills]

I just went to Eurogamer to see what the latest news story was.

Closure creator on why it didn't come to EU PSN Not SCEE's fault. "It was a lot of inexperience on our part."

You read the headline and you might think it's an interesting interview about a deal that went wrong, but no, it's mainly about the upcoming release of their game on Steam and it is sure to mention that it will cost $10 and release on September 7th, by the way.

[FStop7]

It appears according to Kuchera it is okay to do this as long as the publisher doesn't blatantly tell him how and what to cover. It's a weird line to draw, and I think it would make a good new thread.

Honestly, all but a select few VG journos aren't worth the time to bother with. When the Polygon crew were getting upset over the negative reaction to their video trailer someone summed up their attitudes by tweeting "'Please take me seriously!' says the giant talking baby who burps in mid sentence." That's video game journalism in a nutshell and why I crack up when words like 'entitlement' get thrown around by them or when they get pissy and dismissive of "the Internet" when things aren't going their way.

[iammeiam]

Can anyone verify that people posted his real contact information? Did Ben actually see that post or is he just taking the toucharcade guys word for it?

I just went back through the thread, and this was the closest I could find to references of his info being posted. Based on replies to that, the OP once had a screencap of his website on it. The website's "Contact Me" section includes a contact phone number that based on some quick Googling belongs to some kind of landline, not a cellphone, so is probably actually his home number (since also according to that website he works from home.)

If that's what he's talking about, GAF's big sin amounts to reposting information he made and still today makes public. Additionally, if that phone number is the number in question, there is literally no reason to believe the GAF community generated the calls given that I'd imagine his "shitfarter" comments pissed off people on some more actively trollish communities.

[JABEE]

I just went back through the thread, and this was the closest I could find to references of his info being posted. Based on replies to that, the OP once had a screencap of his website on it. The website's "Contact Me" section includes a contact phone number that based on some quick Googling belongs to some kind of landline, not a cellphone, so is probably actually his home number (since also according to that website he works from home.) If that's what he's talking about, GAF's big sin amounts to reposting information he made and still today makes public. Additionally, if that phone number is the number in question, there is literally no reason to believe the GAF community generated the calls given that I'd imagine his "shitfarter" comments pissed off people on some more actively trollish communities.

A good journalist would research that and not just take Hodapp's word for it. There was no mention of Hodapp publishing his own phone number in the article. Marketers (journalists) got to stick together I guess. Example of games journalism: When you criticize something, you better make sure it's the little guy. Protect your media friends because you never know when you'll need a job or protection from the next shitstorm.

[MrNyarlathotep]

I'm not sure if you realize this, but most major outlets get shit on if they are releasing reviews for games "late". So, at that point, you really have one option: If we want to review X game, we need to get that game from the publisher/developer before release. If you don't, it's kind of impossible to have a review done in time for the game's launch. On a personal level, I have—depending on the game—asked for a retail copy of game that I reviewed if I liked it. I typically ask for this after my review is done, and in the case that the copy I was given to do my review wasn't a retail copy (which happens when publishers get their retail copies early enough to be usable for a review). If anybody wants to look down on me for doing that, that's fine. ... Media outlets and freelancers will often ask for debug versions of consoles—because otherwise, you're never going to be able to play pre-release games for preview/review purposes. At that point, you might have a few consoles for office needs, but typically people aren't just getting free debug consoles for their personal home use. (Freelancers with enough clout are the exception.) I personally have never known anybody who has gotten a retail system from a company simply by being media, with the exception of that one E3 where Microsoft gave everybody at the press conference an Xbox 360 Slim when they were new. The one retail console I've received for free due to being media was a DSi. We got an office one when I was working for Play, and given I was the person to do a majority of the DS reviews, I just kind of ended up with it after we'd talked about its new features. ... Every year of Xbox Live that I've had I've paid for myself. I did get a free year of PS+ from this year's E3, as everybody at the press conference received that. I do believe some in the media do end up with free Xbox Live subscriptions, but you also have to understand that that can help in the process of doing reviews. Parties are going to exist no matter if you're giving somebody coverage or not. If you get invited to one or not depends on how big of an outlet you are. I have never been in any situation where game coverage in print/online/whatever was exchanged for any sort of party invite. I've been to a number of events that were held for showing off games. Given the fact that media groups may not have the budget to fly people out to every event that's going on, there are absolutely times when it could be a "we need airfare/hotel paid for or we can't cover the event" type of situation. That's less some sort of behind-closed-doors trade, and more a simple fact of budget. ... People really, really over-estimate the amount to which swag is a part of this business. Do we get stuff sometimes as promotional items? Sure—but most of the time it's some interesting marketing item we get, and in no way something we'd to any degree based our coverage around the reception of (unless, of course, the coverage we're talking about is directly tied to that swag, as we can't cover what we don't have). Personally, just like retail games, I have at times specifically asked for something that was swag. At E3, I asked Atlus for one of the Persona 4 t-shirts that they were giving out. My actually asking for a particular piece of swag isn't a common occurrence, and if I don't get it, I'm usually not heartbroken. ... Yes, because when you're going to an event because it's your job, it can be annoying when people are there just for fun and they get in the way of doing your job. Sorry if that makes me sound like an elitist.

Hahaha.

This is why people don't take gaming journalism seriously.

Replace your position with that of a financial reporter, and replace all of your 'well I only asked for a few freebies' with 'I only asked for a few share tips and inside deals'.

Replace your position with that of a political reporter, and replace all of your 'they only paid for the flights and hotel rooms and parties because they were doing it anyway' with 'of course I can still be objective about the subjects of my writing, I only went to a handful of fundraiser dinners as a friend'

Influence peddling is influence peddling, and you can justify being an extended arm of a publishers PR firm to yourself, but actual, genuine, ethical, respected journalists don't take free stuff from the subject of a story they're writing because it compromises them. Sorry, it does.

Pretty much the point of PR is to make you think warm fuzzy thoughts about who they represent, and they do that by showing you a good time, buying you drinks, fluttering their prettiest girls (or boys) eyelashes at you, and genuinely making you think 'wow, these guys are so cool' so you feel bad if you need to lay down a 5/10 score, because, hey, those devs I partied with were all pretty cool guys.

Just because they're not explicitly saying 'you're totally gonna give this next title a minimum 7/10 right?' doesn't mean they're not compromising your objectivity. They're just smart enough to do it in a way where you're sat there thinking you still have integrity. Unlike these naive epic skate guys in this article.

[Shaneus]

Easier to call out little KickStarter #22 for bribes than EA or Ubisoft. He wouldn't do that because the PA boys get the big bucks from them through co-marketing comics and their convention. "Bribery" in games journalism isn't a KickStarter issue. Kuchera decided that little upstart game makers was the time to draw the line. Pick on some goliaths if you want to flex and show off your integrity.

To be honest, it probably wouldn't have been worth writing the article if they couldn't find a way to shoehorn in the Hodapp article. It wasn't even shoehorned in, I don't think... because what happened with him ("journalist" makes childish remark, gets called out, cries) is barely fucking related to the whole "bribery" thing.

The moment the gaming media as a whole start acting less like they're the bastion of ethics and more like objective, professional journalists who work for the public and not each other, the better. But they have a long way to go before they eliminate this us vs. them mentality.

[Lost Fragment]

Hahaha. This is why people don't take gaming journalism seriously. Replace your position with that of a financial reporter, and replace all of your 'well I only asked for a few freebies' with 'I only asked for a few share tips and inside deals'. Replace your position with that of a political reporter, and replace all of your 'they only paid for the flights and hotel rooms and parties because they were doing it anyway' with 'of course I can still be objective about the subjects of my writing, I only went to a handful of fundraiser dinners as a friend' Influence peddling is influence peddling, and you can justify being an extended arm of a publishers PR firm to yourself, but actual, genuine, ethical, respected journalists don't take free stuff from the subject of a story they're writing because it compromises them. Sorry, it does. Pretty much the point of PR is to make you think warm fuzzy thoughts about who they represent, and they do that by showing you a good time, buying you drinks, fluttering their prettiest girls (or boys) eyelashes at you, and genuinely making you think 'wow, these guys are so cool' so you feel bad if you need to lay down a 5/10 score, because, hey, those devs I partied with were all pretty cool guys. Just because they're not explicitly saying 'you're totally gonna give this next title a minimum 7/10 right?' doesn't mean they're not compromising your objectivity. They're just smart enough to do it in a way where you're sat there thinking you still have integrity. Unlike these naive epic skate guys in this article.

Certainly, there are a lot of areas where gaming journalism is lacking. Things that should change, but haven't yet because there either isn't enough public outcry, or the current climate of the field makes some evils necessary.

But one of the reasons that gaming journalists themselves don't hold themselves to the standard of political/financial/etc journalists is because...gaming journalists write about video games. It's silly to compare gaming journalists to journalists that cover things that influence the well-being of hundreds of millions of people in profound ways.

[MrNyarlathotep]

Certainly, there are a lot of areas where gaming journalism should improve. Things that should change, but haven't yet because there either isn't enough public outcry, or the current climate of the field makes some evils necessary. But one of the reasons that gaming journalists themselves don't hold themselves to the standard of political/financial/etc journalists is because...gaming journalists write about video games. It's silly to compare gaming journalists with journalists that cover things that influence the well-being of hundreds of millions of people in profound ways.

I can see that side of the argument.

But then don't call yourself a journalist. Call yourself an entertainment writer or something.

In cooking, a chef can range from the owner of a michelin starred restaurant in new york, to a guy working in bar frying hamburgers, but I expect the basic ethics of their trade - sanitation, health and safety, hygenic food preparation - to apply to them all no matter what their level or the specifics of their medium.

[dLMN8R]

There is very little games journalism out there. Stuff like this comes the closest I've seen:

http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/...turn-back-time
http://www.theverge.com/2012/8/28/3274739/onlive-report

Kuchera's done some good journalism too. But for the most part, they need to accept the fact that 99% of what they do isn't "journalism".

They're the enthusiast press, and there's nothing wrong with that. But it is what it is, they should accept what it is, and stop it with these lofty proclamations of importance unless they start doing stuff like what I linked above full-time and exclusively.

[The Boat]

I can see that side of the argument. But then don't call yourself a journalist. Call yourself an entertainment writer or something. In cooking, a chef can range from the owner of a michelin starred restaurant in new york, to a guy working in bar frying hamburgers, but I expect the basic ethics of their trade - sanitation, health and safety, hygenic food preparation - to apply to them all no matter what their level or the specifics of their medium.

To be fair, if you're reporting news and stuff, you can be considered a journalist, at least according to Wikipedia. If breaking ethics means they're not journalists (maybe it does, I dunno), don't think this isn't abundant in any other segment of the press or pretty much every job.

I'm gonna be the devil's advocate, but just because you're not covering actually important things or because you're getting some free swag and games, it doesn't necessarily mean you're not working on bringing good content to readers. Especially for those who actually bother to do research and strive to write good articles, it seems unfair to laugh in their faces when they get called journalists because they get free stuff and aren't writing about famine and war.

Don't get me wrong, the gaming press is appallingly bad, there's a shortage of good writers, barely any investigation and a lot of the gifts being thrown around raise questions, but let's not go to extremes.

P.S.: I'm not saying I'm not guilty of putting the word journalist in quotation marks when I read something really bad, I probably did that a number of times.

EDIT: Oh and I'm not a journalist, nor do I intend to be- I write in my spare time (haven't done that in a while), but that's about it.

[Tmdean]

But one of the reasons that gaming journalists themselves don't hold themselves to the standard of political/financial/etc journalists is because...gaming journalists write about video games. It's silly to compare gaming journalists to journalists that cover things that influence the well-being of hundreds of millions of people in profound ways.

That's fine, and I agree that it's not a big deal if ethics are much looser in videogame journalism. The fact remains that they are, and Kuchera is deluding himself into thinking that the gulf between "here's some free stuff, give us some coverage if you feel like it" and "here's some free stuff if you feel like giving us some coverage" is much, much bigger than it actually is.

Influence peddling is influence peddling, and you can justify being an extended arm of a publishers PR firm to yourself, but actual, genuine, ethical, respected journalists don't take free stuff from the subject of a story they're writing because it compromises them. Sorry, it does.

Exactly! A game journalist might be able to convince themselves that they have superhuman levels of impartiality and that the freebies don't have any influence on their objectivity, but I guarantee you that the companies furnishing those freebies have a differing opinion. I tend to side with the party who isn't greatly financially benefiting from this arrangement when determining who is correct.

[EleventhDoctor]

Honestly, all but a select few VG journos aren't worth the time to bother with. When the Polygon crew were getting upset over the negative reaction to their video trailer someone summed up their attitudes by tweeting "'Please take me seriously!' says the giant talking baby who burps in mid sentence." That's video game journalism in a nutshell and why I crack up when words like 'entitlement' get thrown around by them or when they get pissy and dismissive of "the Internet" when things aren't going their way.

Out of curiousity, what's this?

[iammeiam]

Out of curiousity, what's this?

This thread, about this and later this which at least gave the world this.

[EleventhDoctor]

This thread, about this and later this which at least gave the world this.

Oh for Christ's Sake.

[Shaneus]

This thread, about this and later this which at least gave the world this.

That's meant to be a pisstake, is it? Or is it serious? It's so borderline I can't tell one way or the other.

And that's not a good thing.

[FStop7]

Certainly, there are a lot of areas where gaming journalism is lacking. Things that should change, but haven't yet because there either isn't enough public outcry, or the current climate of the field makes some evils necessary. But one of the reasons that gaming journalists themselves don't hold themselves to the standard of political/financial/etc journalists is because...gaming journalists write about video games. It's silly to compare gaming journalists to journalists that cover things that influence the well-being of hundreds of millions of people in profound ways.

Except that it's a multi-billion dollar industry and the people who write the reviews wield a lot of influence. Especially when things like meta scores are used by publishers to determine bonuses, if a title will have a sequel, etc.