[Dreams-Visions]

man what is going on.

people angry for a ton of reasons, being given an avenue to channel that anger through and venting it all out.

[Tallshortman]

Radical religious nut makes a movie about a religion and that religion's radical nuts kill people in retaliation. I wish these fucks would just kill each other. They should have locked Bin Laden in a cage with Terry Jones.

Saying offensive things about another religion is certainly not equal to killing thousands of innocent people. While people like Terry Jones are extremists here, they're a far cry from people who plan the systematic murder of all Westerners simply because.

[xbhaskarx]

man what is going on.

Shockingly, for the first time in history, there is unrest in the region, as normally civilized and well behaved people are forced to resort to violence because some dude halfway across the world made a video that they don't like.

[Saadster]

This is getting way out of hand for something so stupid. I have a feeling people are just fed up and pissed about a shit ton of things and are using this to vent.

[dogmaan]

This 'film' is full of lies, slander and hate. An obvious attempt and at sowing sedition among people. I am absolutely against this rubbish. It serves no purpose other than trouble. As a Muslim I stand against any offense to The Prophet.

As a person who has no religion, and due to my education I lean heavily towards the probability that there are no gods, and that in all likelihood most religious material is fictitious or embellished, taking my opinion into account, to me; your argument has the same weight, as saying you stand against any offence to Dumbledore.

Can you express your opinion in a way that people like me can understand and relate to? Because I find the anger truly baffling.

As tone cannot be easily inferred from text alone, the above is me trying to be "matter of fact" not rude.

Thanks.

[Saadster]

As a person who has no religion, and due to my education I lean heavily towards the probability that there are no gods, and that in all likelihood most religious material is fictitious or embellished, taking that into account, to me; your argument has the same weight, as saying you stand against any offence to Dumbledore. Can you express your opinion in a way that people like me can understand and relate to? Because I find the anger truly baffling. As tone cannot be easily inferred from text alone, the above is me trying to be "matter of fact" not rude. Thanks.

If you think like that you will never understand his viewpoint. Religion runs very, very, very deep to people.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Speaking as someone who has seen it (and wholeheartedly favors blasphemy in all its forms), I can safely say that this is one of the worst movies I've ever seen. We're talking "The Room"-bad.

Oh man do I reall want to see it now!

[near]

As a person who has no religion, and due to my education I lean heavily towards the probability that there are no gods, and that in all likelihood most religious material is fictitious or embellished, taking that into account, to me; your argument has the same weight, as saying you stand against any offence to Dumbledore. Can you express your opinion in a way that people like me can understand and relate to? Because I find the anger truly baffling. As tone cannot be easily inferred from text alone, the above is me trying to be "matter of fact" not rude. Thanks.

This makes no sense what so ever. You compared a fictional character out of a book which the author wrote to entertain, to a well known individual who's character and actions have been documented through history. You cannot be serious here? So the Torah, Quran and Bible where all written by an author who came up with amazing stories to entertain the masses, by which eventually millions of people started following religiously. All Prophets mentioned in these religions are equal to Dumbledore. Don't be silly, that's pure ignorance. You argued your case against him in a more neglectful manner than he did.

[dogmaan]

If you think like that you will never understand his viewpoint. Religion runs very, very, very deep to people.

I worded it like that to show how I see the issue, I tried to do it in a succinct way that also carries weight, and is thus hopefully easier to understand.

[ClosingADoor]

As a person who has no religion, and due to my education I lean heavily towards the probability that there are no gods, and that in all likelihood most religious material is fictitious or embellished, taking that into account, to me; your argument has the same weight, as saying you stand against any offence to Dumbledore. Can you express your opinion in a way that people like me can understand and relate to? Because I find the anger truly baffling. As tone cannot be easily inferred from text alone, the above is me trying to be "matter of fact" not rude. Thanks.

You really don't understand why people get upset when you insult their religion? It something they grow up with, something they believe in and which rules a large part of their life. I'm an atheist myself, so I won't pretend to know the feeling or anything, but I can understand why religious people don't like when you insult their God or Prophets.

Of course, they should just ignore stuff like this stupid movie and continue with their lives instead of this bullshit, which saladine also said.

[dogmaan]

This makes no sense what so ever. You compared a fictional character out of a book which the author wrote to entertain, to a well known individual who's character and actions have been documented through history. You cannot be serious here? So the Torah, Quran and Bible where all written by an author who came up with amazing stories to entertain the masses, by which eventually millions of people started following as a region. All Prophets mentioned in these religions are equal to Dumbledore. Don't be silly, that's pure ignorance. You argued your case against him in a more neglectful manner than he did.

I'm very sorry, I did not mean to upset you, the reason I put it like that is because that is how I see the issue, that is my opinion, it would be dishonest of me and less respectful, if I was to dance around the issue with platitudes.

[Tence]

If you think like that you will never understand his viewpoint. Religion runs very, very, very deep to people.

I understand exactly what you mean. You can not simply make a comparison between a prophet or god and santa because in the eyes of an atheist they are all make-believe.
It is simply not the same to insult santa (who we all know is a myth) and a god (who many of us believe is a myth, yet others believe is real)

However, I as an atheist, will also never truely be able to understand his viewpoint... even in respecting the fact he believes in God and Mohammed, simply because I have no comparison. I have no entity or prophet to 'defend'.

[near]

I'm very sorry, I did not mean to upset you, the reason I put it like that is because that is how I see the issue, that is my opinion, it would be dishonest of me and less respectful, if I was to dance around the issue with platitudes.

I'm not upset, and I don't think anyone expects you to dance around with platitudes either. But there is no need to argue your viewpoint across in a way that you insult someone's faith. It would be more acceptable to encourage a more insightful argument through the sharing of knowledge not opinions complimented with spite of interest. You are more than entitled to your opinion, sharing yours will help others understand your perspective on the topic, and he'll share he's too, but when you call someone out, call them out with decency and intent of educating them if you disagree with there statements.

[Bit-Bit]

I say American's should respond by making as many depictions of Mohammad as we can. Free speech, bitch!

[~Devil Trigger~]

I say American's should respond by making as many depictions of Mohammad as we can. Free speech, bitch!

i never get this, and maybe muslim GAF can answer

Why the fuck you care about non-Muslims doing non-Muslim things???

Its Islamic law that you can depict Mohammad in images, for Muslims.

Why dont they protest(and I know there's more behinds the protest than this...) about me eating porc, i loves me some grio.

[effingvic]

so fucking stupid. goddamnit dudes stop burning shit

This is getting way out of hand for something so stupid. I have a feeling people are just fed up and pissed about a shit ton of things and are using this to vent.

for real. way to lose all that good will from last year. so much disorder and chaos.

[Yoritomo]

If you think like that you will never understand his viewpoint. Religion runs very, very, very deep to people.

So does the love one has for their mother but cooler heads have been able to realize that a your mama joke isn't worth killing people over.

[Ra\/en]

People are stupid.

I have nothing further to add to this thread.

[Foxy Fox 39]

Radical religious nut makes a movie about a religion and that religion's radical nuts kill people in retaliation. I wish these fucks would just kill each other. They should have locked Bin Laden in a cage with Terry Jones.

This is just a bad post. Just a really bad post.

[Bit-Bit]

i never get this, and maybe muslim GAF can answer Why the fuck you care about non-Muslims doing non-Muslim things??? Its Islamic law that you can depict Mohammad in images, for Muslims. Why dont they protest(and I know there's more behinds the protest than this...) about me eating porc, i loves me some grio.

Just another way of showing that their violent protests won't change how we view FREEDOM. And if they don't like it, they can GET OUT.

[near]

The problem here is that we have a product that insults a religion. We then have a group of people react in a very horrific manner in an act of justice, and are seeking further justification - we're to assume they're 'Muslim'. Why are we to assume they're 'Muslim'? Because they're attacking and harming innocent people in the 'defence' of there religion that the product has caused. This line of thinking is ignorant and stupid. Most Muslims and non-muslim's that are educated will know that the translation of 'Islam' is peace. In no chapter in the Quran does it encourage the act of violence and the massacre of innocent people without reason. If a couple priests commit paedophilia abusing children are we to assume Christianity has caused them to commit the crime? No. It was an act out of self desire, we have free will, and one man's actions does not equate to a nations or a group of people. It's wrong to make that assumption.

These people who are causing all these attacks on the US embassies in Islamic countries are ignorant and blaming the wrong people if this is their response to the film (assuming this is the true reason). Just as many others are ignorant in questioning Muslims and the Islamic laws/principles based on a handful of peoples actions.

Islam in my opinion has been suffering from bad media publicity for a long time, just as Christianity has. I think its wrong to make the assumption that the actions of these protests are encouraged by there faith, just as its wrong to assume they're even practising Muslims.

[Tence]

I think its wrong to make the assumption that the actions of these protests are encouraged by there faith, just as its wrong to assume they're even practising Muslims.

Then how do you explain the protests in Indonesia of the Hizbut Tahrir



Could you explain to me (and to the Hizbut Tahrir) that it is wrong to assume they are encouraged by their faith.... or better yet...to assume they're even practising muslims?

And don't get me wrong...these protests are peacefull and they have every right to do so... but I'd love to see you explain to them they aren't practising muslims.

[SmokyDave]

I think its wrong to make the assumption that the actions of these protests are encouraged by there faith, just as its wrong to assume they're even practising Muslims.

And with that, the shark was jumped.

I have literally read it all now. My capacity for disbelief has been expanded to breaking point.

I'm going to save this post as a reminder that reality is utterly subjective.

[near]

Then how do you explain the protests in Indonesia of the Hizbut Tahrir Could you explain to me (and to the Hizbut Tahrir) that it is wrong to assume they are encouraged by there faith.... or better yet...to assume they're even practising muslims? And don't get me wrong...these protests are peacefull and they have every right to do so... but I'd love to see you explain to them they aren't practising muslims.

Two different scenarios. One is an act of violence and the other is an ordinary protest. I see what you're trying to say however. Still who am I to judge someones character? A practising muslim is one who follows he's religion properly and very well. That is down to the character and individuals intentions, it would be wrong of me to make the assumption that someone who is a practising Muslim to judge them as if they weren't but why are we making the assumption in the first place? That is the point I'm trying to get across.

And with that, the shark was jumped. I have literally read it all now. My capacity for disbelief has been expanded to breaking point. I'm going to save this post as a reminder that reality is utterly subjective.

I don't know what you're on about, care to explain?

[Ydahs]

i never get this, and maybe muslim GAF can answer Why the fuck you care about non-Muslims doing non-Muslim things??? Its Islamic law that you can depict Mohammad in images, for Muslims. Why dont they protest(and I know there's more behinds the protest than this...) about me eating porc, i loves me some grio.

I can assure you that while a large sum of Muslims will understandably find the video offensive, they'll stop there. There's over a billion Muslims in the world. There are, what, five thousand protesting? Ten thousand worldwide? A minority, most of which are probably not religiously driven anyway. Mob mentality kicks and the number grows, similiar to those riots in London a couple years back.

And we eat bacon too y'know. I had some vegetarian bacon from the first time a few days back!

[BocoDragon]

I can assure you that while a large sum of Muslims will understandably find the video offensive, they'll stop there. There's over a billion Muslims in the world. There are, what, five thousand protesting? Ten thousand worldwide? A minority, most of which are probably not religiously driven anyway. Mob mentality kicks and the number grows, similiar to those riots in London a couple years back. And we eat bacon too y'know. I had some vegetarian bacon from the first time a few days back!

That is NOT bacon! I feel compelled to riot now!

;)

[Devolution]

man what is going on.

US has been fucking around in the middle east since post WWII. There is a lot of blowback and tensions under the surface. If anything we should be cautious about "oh it's just in relation to the movie" rather than taking a hard look at the current situations in these countries. It's not far removed from "they just hate our freedoms" talk that preceded the wars.

[Kuroyume]

What's the point of burning an American flag? Like that's supposed to be offensive to us?

[alphaNoid]

US has been fucking around in the middle east since post WWII. There is a lot of blowback and tensions under the surface. If anything we should be cautious about "oh it's just in relation to the movie" rather than taking a hard look at the current situations in these countries. It's not far removed from "they just hate our freedoms" talk that preceded the wars.

I think its time we just bail out and let that part of the world implode.

[SmokyDave]

I think its time we just bail out and let that part of the world implode.

Pakistan has nukes.

[Tence]

Two different scenarios. One is an act of violence and the other is an ordinary protest. I see what you're trying to say however. Still who am I to judge someones character? A practising muslim is one who follows he's religion properly and very well. That is down to the character and individuals intentions, it would be wrong of me to make the assumption that someone who is a practising Muslim to judge them as if they weren't but why are we making the assumption in the first place? That is the point I'm trying to get across.

Ok, you wrote 'protests' so I assumed you meant all, not just the violent ones.

'We' are making the assumption these protests are by muslims because they are bringing sings, chanting the Prophet shouldn't be insulted and raising islamic flags.

I think there are other motives though, ultimately political and I think instigators probably have ulterior motives, but that doesn't change the facts that these protesters are muslims and act on feelings on being hurt because their prophet is being ridiculed.

[SoulPlaya]

But I was told that Tunisia was a modern secular country where this type of stuff couldn't possibly happen, lol.

Before people jump on me, let me clarify. I know this is a small minority, but in so man of these countries, these small minorities are so radical and violent that they hold the quiet majority hostage. The others in these countries need to stand up against these elements, and no that doesn't mean small protests. They have to stomp these people out. It's unfortunate, but it seems like all the Arab spring has done is turn these countries more radical, as the minority extremists that were held in check by secular governments are now let loose.

[Ydahs]

^ If anyone's up to the task, it's Kane. Also there is nothing wrong with having a non-secular government. The issue stems from culture, politics and corruption.

That is NOT bacon! I feel compelled to riot now! ;)

Meh, it's not as good as the real stuff anyway (turkey bacon).

[GillianSeed79]

What's the point of burning an American flag? Like that's supposed to be offensive to us?

Did you forget all the proposed constitutional ammendments that attempted to ban flag burning? I don't get it, but some Americans view “Old Glory” like it's a living thing.

[pgtl_10]

My guess? Almost none. They were interviewing protesters and no one had seen anything, they just heard that the movie insults the prophet. One guy said he wouldn't even seek to watch such a thing. I suspect he isn't alone in that. Some people said they've seen pictures from the movie, or they read about it, or they were told about it. This is all about outrage and angst and I say let them burn themselves out before we act. Don't be hasty and remove funding or support, because that's what the Islamists want us to do. They want America to leave in a huff, or maybe even the Russians or Iran want this to happen so they can fill that power vacuum with their influence instead. Now is the time for sensible discussion, sensible trolling, and sensible watching of the spectacle and shaking of the head.

Nope we shouldn't fund these countries. Too sensitive and leads to a blowback. I say we should leave this area alone.

[pgtl_10]

Weren't vast swaths of these countries populations all pro-West during the Arab Spring? What happened?

Not really.

[Nesotenso]

But I was told that Tunisia was a modern secular country where this type of stuff couldn't possibly happen, lol. Before people jump on me, let me clarify. I know this is a small minority, but in so man of these countries, these small minorities are so radical and violent that they hold the quiet majority hostage. The others in these countries need to stand up against these elements, and no that doesn't mean small protests. They have to stomp these people out. It's unfortunate, but it seems like all the Arab spring has done is turn these countries more radical, as the minority extremists that were held in check by secular governments are now let loose.

autocratic regimes

[Saadster]

Pakistan has nukes.

Pakistan isn't that part of the world.

[razorman]

Pakistan isn't that part of the world.

Indeed, although that point is often lost on a lot of people in the West. Interesting to note that there has been hardly any protest in Pakistan as well.

[near]

Ok, you wrote 'protests' so I assumed you meant all, not just the violent ones. 'We' are making the assumption these protests are by muslims because they are bringing sings, chanting the Prophet shouldn't be insulted and raising islamic flags. I think there are other motives though, ultimately political and I think instigators probably have ulterior motives, but that doesn't change the facts that these protesters are muslims and act on feelings on being hurt because their prophet is being ridiculed.

If we see a couple men in the midst of a women's rights protest, what are you going to assume? That he is a bisexual maybe? No. The natural assumption should be that he agrees with the movement he is participating in. That is why it's wrong to make an assumption when we know nothing of that person and why he is there. He might be there to perv on the women, but none of us will know he's intentions, what is clear is that he stands in protest with them.

I agree there maybe other motives, and political gain may be involved somewhere.

In the end yes a lot of Muslims are hurt, and they have every right to be hurt. But each individual should be held accountable to there own actions, if they stay at home and do nothing, if they go out and protest, or if they kill innocent people out of justification, each will be held accountable for there separate actions, that is where the line is drawn on what is right and wrong. But in the end what we can agree on is that what drove them to there actions was a product of provocation.

[elrechazado]

This 'film' is full of lies, slander and hate. An obvious attempt and at sowing sedition among people. I am absolutely against this rubbish. It serves no purpose other than trouble. As a Muslim I stand against any offense to The Prophet. Having said that, killing innocent people half way across the world who had absolutely nothing to do with the film is absolutely atrocious and unacceptable. Setting fire to embassies and establishments is idiotic. Burning flags and effigies is ignorance. There is a minority of hardcore extremists who keep fucking things up for everyone else. It's up to the leaders to put a stop to these mad men and bring back a sense of rationality to the world..

I'm curious, would killing the people who do have something to do with the film be ok to you?

[SmokyDave]

Pakistan isn't that part of the world.

I assumed we were describing the Islamic world, rather than conventional borders.

[speculawyer]

Weren't vast swaths of these countries populations all pro-West during the Arab Spring? What happened?

They no longer have their crappy governments to complain about . . . so . . . complain about the Americans!

[GillianSeed79]

autocratic regimes

Exactly. For too long too much of our foreign policy in the middle east was about propping up autocratic regimes to protect our own strategic interests. Mubarack in Egypt is a perfect example. It's not good when the tear gas canisters they fired on protestors said made in the USA. The majority of our funding to Egypt was essentially a bribe to make sure they remained supportive of the peace treaty with Israel. These protests are moronic and I can't believe people are being killed over an internet video, but it's nieve to think our past and current support of autocratic regimes in the region hasn't created more enemies than friends.

[Kurtofan]

Weren't vast swaths of these countries populations all pro-West during the Arab Spring? What happened?

Libya was the only one where the West was directly involved, and there was demonstrations by Muslims to denounce the attacks (the photos float around in this thread and the previous, it's infuriating how the medias ignore those) I'd say they're pro-West.

Western countries weren't involved directly with Tunisia, Egypt and Yemen, so no reason for these countries to turn pro-West all of a sudden.

[mercenar1e]

now imagine something like this happening 40 years from now when the population of muslims increases by millions..

[AlimNassor]

For Muslims this is pretty serious. Specially when they view the Western world as imperialists destroying their countries for their own gain. Gotta understand many muslims would react violently to this. They aren't radical extremists, they're normal everyday folk.

[Clay Davis]

now imagine something like this happening 40 years from now when the population of muslims increases by millions..

the Muslim population is over 1 billion' what difference will a few more million make?

[pigeon]

People are crazy and lack the basic understanding that a moron's opinion is not the opinon of an entire nation or its government. There was idiot on CNN shouting at Ben Wedeman that Obama sanctioned this because with " all his intelligence agencies " should have known about its existence.

In their countries, this would be true. This is a big reason for the confusion on both sides here.

now imagine something like this happening 40 years from now when the population of muslims increases by millions..

...can you elaborate on your point here?

[Kurtofan]

now imagine something like this happening 40 years from now when the population of muslims increases by millions..

It won't change anything since it's always a minority of people who go out of their way to attack people.