[Trey]

Wait, so me not wanting to date/have a relationship with a trans woman makes me transphobic?

The general argument is that if you identify a transgender, you're not transphobic if you aren't attracted to him or her. But if you were in a relationship with one, then you found out her or she was trans and broke it off for that reason, it would be consider for transphobic reasons.

[Rayis]

Hey, while we're educating me - do transsexual women have orgasms like a man or like a woman? That is, do they get more powerful orgasms and no resting period?

This is the video that answered this question, she described in great detail and eloquently (NSFW),in summary it depends on how good the surgery is, but more female-like orgasms are usually reached

[OJdaKiller]

Or, y'know, if you like, loved somebody, or something. If my fiance turned out to be trans now, I'd stay with him.

Well, that scenario would be probably be almost impossible. You get to the point of being engaged to someone, and then after the engagement you find out they are trans....And then it rained carrots from the sky...This is most likely an imaginary scenario.

Also, even in such a scenario, would you really want to build a future with someone who's already been deceptive to you at some level? Would you really want to build a future on a foundation of trust concerns? Going through GRS is a big deal and to not mention it is to someone you supposedly love is really questionable at best. In today's day and age an act of omission of this material is used to deceive, thus not allowing you make decisions based on your feelings. I personally wouldn't want to be with someone who'd try to control me. It's not so commonplace (transgender/GRS) in today's society that to omit such information is an "oh, I forgot. Didn't think it mattered at all."

So really, a person should be knowing a significant part of someone's life before it gets serious enough to become engaged. And then in this instance, I fall back to my original statement that heterosexual people would not pursue the relationship, where as gay/bi/curious may be inclined to do so.

[thatbox]

And then in this instance, I fall back to my original statement that heterosexual people would not pursue the relationship, where as gay/bi/curious may be inclined to do so.

This is a poorly expressed sentiment. A man in a relationship with a trans woman is in a straight relationship, and both participants would be heterosexual. It may be a more adventurous relationship than you would be comfortable with (almost certainly, apparently, from this thread), but since trans women are women their partners needn't be "gay/bi/curious."

[Peagles]

Well, that scenario would be probably be almost impossible. You get to the point of being engaged to someone, and then after the engagement you find out they are trans....And then it rained carrots from the sky...This is most likely an imaginary scenario. Also, even in such a scenario, would you really want to build a future with someone who's already been deceptive to you at some level? Would you really want to build a future on a foundation of trust concerns? Going through GRS is a big deal and to not mention it is to someone you supposedly love is really questionable at best. In today's day and age an act of omission of this material is used to deceive, thus not allowing you make decisions based on your feelings. I personally wouldn't want to be with someone who'd try to control me. It's not so commonplace (transgender/GRS) in today's society that to omit such information is an "oh, I forgot. Didn't think it mattered at all." So really, a person should be knowing a significant part of someone's life before it gets serious enough to become engaged. And then in this instance, I fall back to my original statement that heterosexual people would not pursue the relationship, where as gay/bi/curious may be inclined to do so.

Well I would have been the same at any stage in our relationship. As for the "deception", if he was the same honest person I know him to be, I could imagine that not wanting to tell me would have more to do with it being a stigma and having fears about my reaction than him trying to be "deceptive".

On another note, I know I'd be sad about not being able to have our own children, but I'd be sad about that any way it happened, if either of us were infertile or whatever, not particularly about him being trans.

[Karakand]

These really are uncomfortable, plucked out and spread on the table. Thank you.

There were more I should have posted but didn't.

[Tguy]

The general argument is that if you identify a transgender, you're not transphobic if you aren't attracted to him or her. But if you were in a relationship with one, then you found out her or she was trans and broke it off for that reason, it would be consider for transphobic reasons.

Right and if there's this lady that I am interested in and find out that she used to be a male then I'm not really attracted anymore, it's for transphobic reasons right?

[OJdaKiller]

I could imagine that not wanting to tell me would have more to do with it being a stigma and having fears about my reaction than him trying to be "deceptive".

Withholding information due to fear about your reaction of whatever that information may be is trying to control you. Leading you in one direction, presenting one picture of reality, when you aren't privileaged to the full picture. It doesn't seem like it'd be the behavior of someone truly loving another, but instead of selfishness of one party to manipulate the relationship to one's desires on only his/her terms.

[Black-Wind]

Ehh, IDK :/

Never knowing met one in person.

[ReBurn]

This is the video that answered this question, she described in great detail and eloquently (NSFW),in summary it depends on how good the surgery is, but more female-like orgasms are usually reached

That was a very interesting and informative video.

[Peagles]

Withholding information due to fear about your reaction of whatever that information may be is trying to control you. Leading you in one direction, presenting one picture of reality, when you aren't privileaged to the full picture. It doesn't seem like it'd be the behavior of someone truly loving another, but instead of selfishness of one party to manipulate the relationship to one's desires on only his/her terms.

It could be in some cases (and indeed, in any situation where a partner is withholding information from their SO), but I don't think it's that black and white. Stigma is pretty powerful. What I mean is that I don't believe the reason for withholding something like that is 100% that the person is selfish, malicious, uncaring, etc. There's other forces coming into play here.

[Laughing Banana]

The general argument is that if you identify a transgender, you're not transphobic if you aren't attracted to him or her. But if you were in a relationship with one, then you found out her or she was trans and broke it off for that reason, it would be consider for transphobic reasons.

What difference does it make, when if in the 1st scenario the reason this "you" is not attracted is due to the transgender-ness of the other person?

[Platy]

Right and if there's this lady that I am interested in and find out that she used to be a male then I'm not really attracted anymore, it's for transphobic reasons right?

using your own logic ... she USED TO BE a male. Not anymore. not even close, considering you had atractions for her.

She is as a male as she is a 10 year old or a fetus.
I hope for your beloved deity that you don't have sexual atraction to fetus and 10 year olds... and YET this knowledge didn't changed one bit what you feel for her

edit :

What difference does it make, when if in the 1st scenario the reason this "you" is not attracted is due to the transgender-ness of the other person?

Because in the first scenario you was able to tell .. and that reason might be something that you don't feel atracted to the person. A more masculine shoulder or anything like you might not like also in a cisgender woman

[Tguy]

using your own logic ... she USED TO BE a male. Not anymore. not even close, considering you had atractions for her. She is as a male as she is a 10 year old or a fetus. I hope for your beloved deity that you don't have sexual atraction to fetus and 10 year olds... and YET this knowledge didn't changed one bit what you feel for her

What do you mean my own logic? I'm going based off your post. It's your logic I'm using, i'm just creating a situation around your logic and asking if it makes me a transphobic because I don't want to date her because she was a male in her past.

[Platy]

What do you mean my own logic? I'm going based off your post. It's your logic I'm using, i'm just creating a situation around your logic and asking if it makes me a transphobic because I don't want to date her because she was a male in her past.

If I ever refered to a transwoman to being anything other than a woman was because I was quoting the person that I was explaining.

The maximum I came close of saying (not replying to anyone and using their wording) they are a man is the "post op transwoman are 4/6 biological woman" in the other thread but then again it was because someone WANTED a "black and white" answer and that was the closest I could give

If it slipped me, I feel sorry for that

[OJdaKiller]

I don't believe the reason for withholding something like that is 100% that the person is selfish, malicious, uncaring, etc.

Certainly not malicious or uncaring, but I think it's tough to debate that the person would not be being selfish. They'd be placing their desires/concerns/fears ahead of your right to know who you are involving yourself with without giving you any say in the matter.

[Peagles]

Certainly not malicious or uncaring, but I think it's tough to debate that the person would not be being selfish. They'd be placing their desires/concerns/fears ahead of your right to know who you are involving yourself with without giving you any say in the matter.

Let me say it clearer then. I don't think it's down to the selfishness of the person withholding the information, it's down to how hard a transphobic society makes it for that person.

So for me personally, if my fiance revealed that to me. I wouldn't see it as him being a selfish person, I'd see it as something that he found really difficult to do because of how people generally view that negatively, and glad that he finally felt safe enough to tell me.

I think it's more the situation that someone is in rather than something about their character that means it's hard for them to tell people. That goes for anything else where it's difficult to share that kind of stuff. I mean, it'd be great the earlier you could know in a relationship, sure, but I would understand if my partner found it really hard.

And so I guess these kinds of views are probably part of why my answer to the OP is "Yes I would".

[Tguy]

If I ever refered to a transwoman to being anything other than a woman was because I was quoting the person that I was explaining. The maximum I came close of saying (not replying to anyone and using their wording) they are a man is the "post op transwoman are 4/6 biological woman" in the other thread but then again it was because someone WANTED a "black and white" answer and that was the closest I could give If it slipped me, I feel sorry for that

You aren't really making sense it's like you forgot you posted this.

In my humble opinion, every people that said "is a man" or "was a man" is transphobic, even if they think they are all "you can have all your rights, we just don't see you for what you are". I'm not sure wich one is worst, since "is a man" ignores the identity completly but at the same time don't make it sound like a choice like people who said "was a man". A minor transphobia than those who kill people when they discover they partner is trans( I hope) but still a version of transphobia. It is like those people who say that women should have all the rights, but still curses someone when they do something feminine because they are doing something LOWER and shamefull. You are free to don't date women with masculine features, totaly understandable to refuse to date a women with a penis, will be understood to refuse to date a women with beard shadow .... but if your brain still says "thatisapenis.gif" when you discover AFTER you are atracted, then my friend, your brain is transphobic. And as every discussion related to who we are and specialy who transpeople are show, you are your brain.

Focus on the last paragraph, using that logic you made. I'm just asking if I wouldn't want to date a transgender female because she is a transgender it makes me a tranphobic is basically what you are saying right?

Also, I don't see how if I said that a transgender female used to be a male makes me a transphobic either. If anyone is offended when I say that I'd like to know.

[Osiris]

This is a poorly expressed sentiment. A man in a relationship with a trans woman is in a straight relationship, and both participants would be heterosexual. It may be a more adventurous relationship than you would be comfortable with (almost certainly, apparently, from this thread), but since trans women are women their partners needn't be "gay/bi/curious."

And that is the crux of the issue, a heterosexual relationship is defined as a person attracted to the opposite sex, not a person attracted to the opposite gender. I wouldn't consider, from my perspective, a relationship with a transwoman to be a heterosexual relationship.

If you seperate sex from gender, as indeed we should and have been asked to to accomodate the views and perspective of transgendered individuals, you cannot then conflate the two because it suits on a different point, either sex and gender are seperate, or they are not.

[Platy]

You aren't really making sense it's like you forgot you posted this.

I would love for you to point me when I said transwoman were or are man ... because i'm not seeing.
There might be some problem related to my knowledge in the english language because i'm REALLY curious to what you are talking about.

Focus on the last paragraph, using that logic you made. I'm just asking if I wouldn't want to date a transgender female because she is a transgender it makes me a tranphobic is basically what you are saying right?

If being transgender is THE ONLY feature (in an otherwise perfectly atractive body and "soul" to your standards) that makes her "not date material" than yes, you are a transphobic to me.

Also, I don't see how if I said that a transgender female used to be a male makes me a transphobic either. If anyone is offended when I say that I'd like to know.

It is like saying that gay people used to be hetersexual when they were really gay people in the closet.
You are ignoring the fact that it is an identity and calling it a mere .... state of mind.

[oneils]

I am a heterosexual male. I guess my answer would depend on how successful the trans woman was in her transition to female. Even then, I'm not sure. I'd feel like a giant hypocrite, at the very least. I've said some pretty hateful disgusting things in my time. All the while thinking that I was "just joking around."

[Tguy]

I would love for you to point me when I said transwoman were or are man ... because i'm not seeing. There might be some problem related to my knowledge in the english language because i'm REALLY curious to what you are talking about.

I never said you were, not sure what you aren't getting. That is why my last post said look at the last paragraph, because that's the logic I'm focused on. I said absolutely nothing about you saying transwomen were men. Yet you stay focused on this

It is like saying that gay people used to be hetersexual when they were really gay people in the closet. You are ignoring the fact that it is an identity and calling it a mere .... state of mind.

No I am not, I'm well aware of the whole identity thing but I take into account everything(body, mind, etc).

[Timedog]

It shows where their priorities lie in the context of the relationship, and you know you're not truly getting unconditional love. There's always adoption. Having a child be genetically yours is almost entirely irrelevant. It's sentimental - you can always find a young child that shares your features if that's what you're worried about. And while I'm on this track, why should adoptive parents tell their children that they were adopted? It changes nothing, besides (and here's the connection) perceived biological origin.

This is an interesting point. I just realized that anyone that would end a relationship with someone solely because they found out they were trans is completely incapable of unconditional love. That's kind of side thought though, without much relationship to the topic at hand.

[rCIZZLE]

If other than their aversion to people who have eaten oranges, they were great and we were happy together, I'd easily not tell them that I had ever eaten an orange. Why would I want to ruin something good over something that doesn't actually matter? Wanting a biological child obviously presents a problem that will have to be dealt with, and is a perfectly valid reason for not wanting to be in a relationship with someone who is infertile.

Doesn't matter to the trans person and maybe even their partner but this is some pretty selfish thinking, even if the person is a victim of society. As others have said... they're likely to find out eventually and then not only could the breakup be messy or even violent but also the extremely negative attention the deceptive trans person receives is bad for the whole community.

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

This is an interesting point. I just realized that anyone that would end a relationship with someone solely because they found out they were trans is completely incapable of unconditional love. That's kind of side thought though, without much relationship to the topic at hand.

But what if they did it because they felt betrayed? I mean, that's a heck of a thing to blindside someone with in the course of the relationship, especially in longer ones.

[thatbox]

And that is the crux of the issue, a heterosexual relationship is defined as a person attracted to the opposite sex, not a person attracted to the opposite gender. I wouldn't consider, from my perspective, a relationship with a transwoman to be a heterosexual relationship. If you seperate sex from gender, as indeed we should and have been asked to to accomodate the views and perspective of transgendered individuals, you cannot then conflate the two because it suits on a different point, either sex and gender are seperate, or they are not.

Frankly, you're wrong, or at the very least you're out of step with modern usage of terms. Wikipedia refers to trans women attracted to men as straight, and trans men attracted to men as gay, as does most of the rest of the internet. In the past, trans women have been denied treatment if they admitted to liking other women (not being straight or feminine enough). Anything you find referring to your stated conception of these ideas is likely going to be over twenty or thirty years old, as most recent literature bases such determinations off of gender identity or uses the label-agnostic terms androphilic and gynophilic.

Real talk, if you have a distaste for trans women, don't try to hide behind technical meanings you never employ in your daily life to claim that semantics dictate your actions and preferences or deny trans people their identities and experiences. Just honestly state your feelings.

[OriginofHysteria]

Frankly, you're wrong, or at the very least you're out of step with modern usage of terms. Wikipedia refers to trans women attracted to men as straight, and trans men attracted to men as gay, as does most of the rest of the internet. In the past, trans women have been denied treatment if they admitted to liking other women (not being straight or feminine enough). Anything you find referring to your stated conception of these ideas is likely going to be over twenty or thirty years old, as most recent literature bases such determinations off of gender identity or uses the label-agnostic terms androphilic and gynophilic. Real talk, if you have a distaste for trans women, don't try to hide behind technical meanings you never employ in your daily life to claim that semantics dictate your actions and preferences or deny trans people their identities and experiences. Just honestly state your feelings.

This would be a lot easier if people's morals weren't questioned.

[Roland Deschain]

This is an interesting point. I just realized that anyone that would end a relationship with someone solely because they found out they were trans is completely incapable of unconditional love. That's kind of side thought though, without much relationship to the topic at hand.

So the person who gets blindsided is some afwul person unable to possess unconditional love? But the person witholding this significant information is free of blame? That's what you're saying right?

[JokerOfSpades]

This is the video that answered this question, she described in great detail and eloquently (NSFW),in summary it depends on how good the surgery is, but more female-like orgasms are usually reached

Very interesting, thank you!

[ajim]

Id date a transgendered person. Most certainly would.

[Enco]

This is an interesting point. I just realized that anyone that would end a relationship with someone solely because they found out they were trans is completely incapable of unconditional love. That's kind of side thought though, without much relationship to the topic at hand.

Eh? Totally unfair thing to say. Pretty ridiculous.

If someone has hidden the fact that they are transgender then you have the right to feel hurt. It's not something you hide. Especially if you have unconditional love like you're talking about.

Finding out your SO used to be another gender can be fucking weird and very easily ruin a relationship. As unreasonable as it may be, it will feel to most people like they have to change their sexuality if they stayed with the person. Sure it might be odd but it's true.

It's like saying if you marry a woman who ends up being a murderer, you can't leave her without being able to truly love. Hidden things that can change a dynamic can ruin any relationship.

Telling someone you date that you're transgender is pretty fucking important. There's this thing called trust.

[AdventureRacing]

This is an interesting point. I just realized that anyone that would end a relationship with someone solely because they found out they were trans is completely incapable of unconditional love. That's kind of side thought though, without much relationship to the topic at hand.

That's not true at all. Trust is probably the most important aspect of a relationship and finding out that your partner has been hiding something that important kind of show a lack of trust really.

I wouldn't leave my partner if she told me she was transgender. However if i did that doesn't mean i'm not capable of unconditional love.

[Yagharek]

This is a poorly expressed sentiment. A man in a relationship with a trans woman is in a straight relationship, and both participants would be heterosexual. It may be a more adventurous relationship than you would be comfortable with (almost certainly, apparently, from this thread), but since trans women are women their partners needn't be "gay/bi/curious."

I have a serious question here, and I'm going to try and phrase it sensitively. The context of the questions is that marriage equality in Australia was just voted down in our parliament.

So, here's the scenario.

Let's say two people want to get married. One of them is, for the sake of argument, biologically male, with XY chromosomes, etc etc and has always been male and recognised as such.

Now let's say their partner is a transgender woman, who is legally recognised as such (I understand they have to go through multiple legal hoops to get recognised, at least in Australia).

In Australia, the marriage act as it is now says "marriage is a voluntary union etc etc etc entered into life between a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others"

So you have two people, one legally male, one legally female.

They can get married, surely? Can they get married in any other western country that has yet to legislate for marriage equality?

Or does the discrimination extend to *all* GLBTI people??

[Despera]

If they were feminine enough (hormone treatment) and non-op, my answer would be: probably yes.

Really though, it depends on other more important stuff like the chemistry between us, personality and some such.

[iirate]

The trans woman knew she was a woman prior to transition. The cis woman did not know she was a woman. Fuck off with the "poor cis people boohoo" as if a trans person gets a free pass to be an asshole to whoever they want because they were born into a shitty situation. You're really hurting your cause if you see nothing wrong with it. The trans woman and society both deserve some of the blame for making a new victim. I can empathize with the trans woman until the point where she lied about her gender for 20+ years to someone she supposedly loves. Trans people who act like that should be called out on it by their own community.

Whoa now, as has been said before, it is a shitty situation for both parties. It is REALLY unlikely that the trans woman in this scenario was being selfish or malicious; many of us don't know that we're trans until later in our lives and I'd definitely say that those that always knew and insisted are in the minority. Even if someone knows they are trans, they may think that not transitioning is the better path, and the repercussions of not doing so may eventually catch up to them.

I have to admit, there was a point when I knew I was trans and was considering not transitioning because of a woman I was interested in. Not every trans person transitions and I'm sure that decision works out for some. The fact that others have to eventually confront their own denials doesn't make them monsters, just human. Please note that I'm not discounting any of the turmoil this hypothetical cis woman might go through, but it is seriously shortsighted to call the trans person an asshole here.

Ladyboy is not offensive at all. GAF jumps on this shit like a cult wearing new uniforms, giggling while pulling out babies from under their shirt.

I have no idea what this post means, and even though I'm sure I disagree with it, I recognize that it probably was hilarious.

[linkboy]

Yes, I would.

[Platy]

I have a serious question here, and I'm going to try and phrase it sensitively. The context of the questions is that marriage equality in Australia was just voted down in our parliament. So, here's the scenario. Let's say two people want to get married. One of them is, for the sake of argument, biologically male, with XY chromosomes, etc etc and has always been male and recognised as such. Now let's say their partner is a transgender woman, who is legally recognised as such (I understand they have to go through multiple legal hoops to get recognised, at least in Australia). In Australia, the marriage act as it is now says "marriage is a voluntary union etc etc etc entered into life between a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others" So you have two people, one legally male, one legally female. They can get married, surely? Can they get married in any other western country that has yet to legislate for marriage equality? Or does the discrimination extend to *all* GLBTI people??

If the country has a way for a transwoman to be seeing legaly as woman, then sure, why not ?

The problem happens when a transwoman is married to a woman and then she changes sex on documents.
Then the marriage is nullyfied if the country don't acept homosexual marriage.

[thatbox]

I have a serious question here, and I'm going to try and phrase it sensitively. The context of the questions is that marriage equality in Australia was just voted down in our parliament. So, here's the scenario. Let's say two people want to get married. One of them is, for the sake of argument, biologically male, with XY chromosomes, etc etc and has always been male and recognised as such. Now let's say their partner is a transgender woman, who is legally recognised as such (I understand they have to go through multiple legal hoops to get recognised, at least in Australia). In Australia, the marriage act as it is now says "marriage is a voluntary union etc etc etc entered into life between a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others" So you have two people, one legally male, one legally female. They can get married, surely? Can they get married in any other western country that has yet to legislate for marriage equality? Or does the discrimination extend to *all* GLBTI people??

In the US it depends on the state, and in some Republican-controlled states it's possible for trans people to use the system against itself and get married where cis gay people can't. For example, it's possible for a lesbian trans woman to marry a lesbian cis woman if the state is crappy enough to both forbid gender marker changes on birth certificates (two do so) and attempt to prevent gay marriage. Generally, if a state allows gender marker changes on birth certificates, but disallows gay marriage, a trans person who had changed their gender marker would be limited to straight marriage the same as everybody else. One dumb judge in Oklahoma realized this weakness of being slightly too backwards and uses it in his hilarious decision (he even cites the old testament) to deny name changes to people he doesn't like.

[GungHo]

Oh, so more of a fetish thing, instead of actually liking the person for who they are.

Precisely. She wants to be loved and accepted for the person she is, not objectified and demeaned because some creeper wants a toy.

For example, suppose someone who eventually desires children is dating a woman and really likes her. She hears him talking about wanting to start a family and so she takes a fertility test and finds out she can't give birth. She wasn't born XY, she's just infertile. Would someone that eventually wants children break up with her or would they date for a while longer?

I've seen difficult fertility situations burn up fortunes and destroy families. This can be a major deal breaker for some people... sometimes more than they realize until they're actually in the situation. Failures to produce children can be humbling and humiliating beyond the point where frustrations can simply be internalized.

[yeoz]

The Freethought Blog community has been going over this issue and related issues (generally, violence against trans women) this past week as well. It's fairly intriguing for being a (more eloquent, longer-form) bizarro iteration of the thread we had here. Where GAF starts with premise A, and the majority employs it against premise Z, this community starts with premise Z and employs it against premise A. Both are (fairly) well-moderated, while at the same time allowing for dissenting viewpoints. I'll link some of the entries and provide some snippets, but I think that they're worth reading, along with their comment sections, for anyone who had more than a passing interest in this thread, if for no other reason than to see how things like this are discussed on the progressive cusp of the blogosphere.

It started here, with a critique of an interview done by a trans man with Salon.

If society is so willing to believe, contrary to available evidence, that a cis man would never be knowingly attracted to or interested in a trans woman, couldn't this man just say that in the middle of consensual sex, he "found out I had a penis, flipped out, beat me up and killed me"�? (to paraphrase one Buck Angel). Given my experiences about how society tends to think around these issues, I can't help but feel extremely vulnerable realizing that many people would be inclined to believe that that was true, even if there was evidence that contradicted that narrative. So we see that what's happening in these situations: there is an unresolved tension between the imagination of a cissexist society that heterosexual, cis men are only attracted to cis women, and the real-world fact that heterosexual, cis male sexual attraction to trans women is far from an uncommon phenomenon. Given that this larger cissexist imagination often emerges from voices with greater power in society, that tension tends to be resolved by assuming that such attraction never happens, and that even if it does, it is the just the result of some "deceptive tr*nny" who probably deserves whatever violent "retribution"� she receives -- even in the case that this violence was never retributive in the first place. Now, this isn't to say that there are not instances in which a cis man does discover a woman's trans status "in the moment" then reacts in a violent manner. But this is to say, first of all, that the 'disclosure'� myth hands this man respect and power that he does not deserve, in the form of a ready-made, socially palatable alibi for violence against a woman with whom he willingly decided to engage in sexual relations. And secondly, given that this hypothetical cis man is indeed attracted to a trans woman, we cannot allow ourselves to buy into the cissexist imagination that she has somehow 'disrespected'� him merely by accepting or encouraging his very real sexual desires. The fact is that regardless of what this man likes to imagine about himself, or what any of us might be inclined to tell ourselves, he is indeed attracted to a trans woman. That is an undeniable fact, and there's no manner of obsessing, or fidgeting over it, and certainly no amount of blood splattered across the wall that is going to change that. So from the point that the man realizes that he is in fact attracted to a trans woman, he has two choices: get up and leave the room if he so desires, or else get the fuck over it.

Someone else then links to and affirms that post. Most of the meat is in the comments.

The violence part is and always will be bullshit but I think it's reasonable to want to know if your partner's secondary sexual characteristics have changed to match their psyche. If I wanted my own biological children with a specific partner's genes in play it would matter to me immensely that I knew before I got in any way emotionally involved with someone who couldn't provide me with that. Same with a vasectomy or tubal ligation or hysterectomy or some sort of cancer that has knocked that option out of play. If something changes your reproductive ability I think it's respectful to mention that very early on in the relationship if the relationship is going to be heterosexual. Gay or lesbian couples will already have some fertility work done outside of just regular PIV sex for babies, so I can't see why it would matter there. Hell, then it's kind of useful to have originally different reproductive organs. That is the only topic where I think mentioning being trans matters. Hopefully in the future medical science will make getting your own genetic organs in the correct reproductive option to match the new body as well or figure out petri dish babies better so that issue will just disappear.

Other people have made the good point, as above, that if hypothetical bigot Y has decided to sleep with trans woman X, he's obviously found her attractive, and if he can't deal that's his own problem, and one of those situations where we can blame both the individual bigot as well as broader societal bigotry which makes cis men feel like being attracted to a trans woman makes them somehow less of a man.

No, I understand that. But there's a difference between, say, a gay man ruling out women, and a straight dude ruling out trans women, since the latter is him saying "you are actually a dude". Note the problem here -- a straight dude who automatically rules out trans women. The problem is not a straight dude who doesn't want to sleep with A trans woman. As I said, while it's the the same thing, since there's a ton of different context, it is reminiscent of white guys who say they aren't attracted to black women. It's one thing to say you don't find a particular black woman attractive (though, per usual standards of politeness, it's best to keep your mouth shut in that circumstance), but it's entirely another to say you don't find an entire heterogenous group of people attractive. It means you think you can typify them sufficiently well to rule out all permutations of the group, which is why people talk about sexual racial preferences as racist. Similarly, saying "I'd never sleep with a trans* person"� makes so many assumptions about trans* people that it's essentially a transphobic statement.

Then one last post.

When someone tries to invalidate our genders by saying that, sexually, they consider us less than 'real'� women and thus unacceptable by their standards, the error in this argument is deeper than the surface-level result that they don’t want to sleep with us. It's easy to think this is where they're mistaken, but that's still not the core of it. The underlying error is the assumption that whether people accept or reject us as sexually desirable has any bearing on the reality of our womanhood. Failing to recognize and reject this can lead to counterarguments of the "Well, I'd fuck you"� variety, which are equally irrelevant and only solidify that flawed assumption.

How about finding people attractive or unattractive, rather than grouping entire classes of people into 'fuckable' and 'unfuckable'?

Anyway, just figured this might be interesting to participants in this thread as a slice of another part of the internet.