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Glorified G
Member
(11-30-2012, 04:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by Meelow

The thing is this was the difference.

Xbox 360 Core System - $299
• Xbox 360 console
• Wired controller
• Detachable faceplate
• Xbox Live Silver membership
• Standard AV cables

Xbox 360 - $399
• Xbox 360 console
• 20GB detachable hard drive
• Wireless controller
• Wireless Xbox Live headset
• High-definition AV cables
• Ethernet cable
• Xbox 360 Media Remote Control (limited time)
• Detachable faceplate
• Xbox Live Silver membership

I don't get your point.
SolidSnakex
Member
(11-30-2012, 04:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by i-Lo

So you expect the PS4 to be priced $50 above a console that's effectively somewhat better than a 7 year old console. Interesting. Chances that Sony will be taking losses at that price.

Of course they'll be taking a loss. There's really no way around it unless they want another high priced console. And I doubt that they want that after what happened with the PS3.

And like I said above, the Wii U had a $163 controller. That's obviously playing a big role in its pricing. It seems highly unlikely that Sony will ship something even comparable to that price.
BruceLeeRoy
(11-30-2012, 04:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by SlickShoesRUCrazy

what does it being sony have anything to do with it?

the PS1 was the weakest console of its gen.

The PS2 was the second weakest console of its gen.

Sony made a shit ton of money from those two gens and had the most consoles sold.

The one gen they actually push hardware, they are in third place and have lost a shit ton of money.

Why do people forget that this generation is the first generation Sony went balls out on hardware.

You do realize this isn't in any way true whatsoever.

Originally Posted by SlickShoesRUCrazy

still was weaker hardware then both the gamecube and xbox.

Both the Xbox and Gamecube released a year after the PS2. Do you honestly believe that they would take the extra time to release inferior hardware? Even then it wasn't like the PS2 was completely outclassed. By the time both systems released they were up against MGS2 which was one of the best looking games of its time so the differences between the two weren't felt for quite a while though Halo really did look excellent. Sony have shown no matter what though compared to what is currently on the market they aim to be the best. They completely outclassed the Dreamcast and the SS with the PSONE.
Last edited by BruceLeeRoy; 11-30-2012 at 04:34 AM.
i-Lo
Member
(11-30-2012, 04:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by Glorified G

360 was priced $50 above the Wii. It's not like this has been unprecedented. I expect at least one of orbis/durango sku's to be $399.

They are packing in Kinect 2.0 and we have no idea what heck PS Orbis will be doing. That's why I am apprehensive about putting half a century dollars above WiiU. Hey, if they can pull it off then great for everyone.

But like I said, if the price seems nearly as high as it was last time, I expect Sony to do some form instalment payment plan or subscription model.
quest
Banned from OT
(11-30-2012, 04:39 AM)
There will be a 399.99 or less SKU for both 720/PS4 no question about it. I would not be suprised if the PS4 is a more traditional console to go back to its roots and have a 299 SKU. If MS sells a non kinect 2 SKU I could see that going for 299.99. I still think nintendo is cooking the books there is no way the Wii U costs that much to make. The tablet controller is not that expensive. It does not have high res or even multi-touch screen or a SOC to power it. It is a dummy terminal with a big battery and a lot of plastic.
Meelow
Banned
(11-30-2012, 04:40 AM)

Originally Posted by Glorified G

I don't get your point.

The cheaper sku will look horrible compared to the more expensive sku.
BruceLeeRoy
(11-30-2012, 04:43 AM)
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Originally Posted by Meelow

The cheaper sku will look horrible compared to the more expensive sku.

Oh yeah they will be tard packs for sure.
TAJ
Member
(11-30-2012, 04:55 AM)
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Originally Posted by i-Lo

They are packing in Kinect 2.0

Do we even know there's a Kinect 2 for sure?
The existing Kinect is capable of reading four times as much point data as it does now. 360 just doesn't have the USB bandwidth for it.
Anyway, packing it into the lowest-priced SKU would be suicide.

Originally Posted by BruceLeeRoy

Oh yeah they will be tard packs for sure.

The 20GB was the real tard pack. I don't even know anyone else who downloaded any DLC or XBLA games.
Last edited by TAJ; 11-30-2012 at 04:58 AM.
Glorified G
Member
(11-30-2012, 04:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by Meelow

The cheaper sku will look horrible compared to the more expensive sku.

Originally Posted by BruceLeeRoy

Oh yeah they will be tard packs for sure.

Was the ps1/ps2 a tard packs when you had to buy a memory card to save your games, or a multi tap to have 4 players? How is that any different than ms doing the same thing with their memery unit or wireless adapter? ms followed Sony's philosophy and it worked. Offer powerful hardware at a premium-ish price, and milk the consumers with accessories that should have been included in the first place. And it worked.
Meelow
Banned
(11-30-2012, 05:00 AM)

Originally Posted by Glorified G

Was the ps1/ps2 a tard packs when you had to buy a memory card to save your games, or a multi tap to have 4 players? How is that any different than ms doing the same thing with their memery unit or wireless adapter? ms followed Sony's philosophy and it worked. Offer powerful hardware at a premium-ish price, and milk the consumers with accessories that should have been included in the first place. And it worked.

But we live in a new generation, things are more expansive and all the big 3 will make the more expansive sku look much more wanting then the cheaper sku.

in 2006 the $500 PS3 was originally not going to have an HDMI until Sony got pressured into doing it.
TAJ
Member
(11-30-2012, 05:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by Meelow

in 2006 the $500 PS3 was originally not going to have an HDMI until Sony got pressured into doing it.

It was practically nonexistent anyway. They only made some so they could claim the PS3 was $500.
onQ123
Junior Member
(11-30-2012, 06:18 AM)
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could Next Gen see 1 of the biggest improvements between console gens do to GPGPUs?

&

GPGPU Computing & why you should be more excited about Kinect 2 & the Next PS-Eye.,


Sometimes I think I talk about things too early for most people to understand what I'm talking about so it might seem like I'm just talking crazy when I talk about stuff.

But I have a feeling that my threads are going to make a lot of sense in the next year or so especially if the PS4 & Xbox Next is going to be designed the way I think they will be designed with the full APU working as the CPU in the new consoles by having the GPGPU inside of the APU as a computing beast finishing what the SPUs in the Cell started.
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Banned
(11-30-2012, 06:39 AM)

Originally Posted by BruceLeeRoy

You do realize this isn't in any way true whatsoever.



Both the Xbox and Gamecube released a year after the PS2. Do you honestly believe that they would take the extra time to release inferior hardware? Even then it wasn't like the PS2 was completely outclassed. By the time both systems released they were up against MGS2 which was one of the best looking games of its time so the differences between the two weren't felt for quite a while though Halo really did look excellent. Sony have shown no matter what though compared to what is currently on the market they aim to be the best. They completely outclassed the Dreamcast and the SS with the PSONE.

it's been debated here on gaf, and the consensus was the n64 was superior hardware wise.

http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=491693


The ps3/wii released a year after the 360, don't even have to argue the wii hardware, and the ps3 is slightly more powerful then the 360, and for the most part, outside of a game or two on the ps3, the 360 has been on it's heals graphically.
flattie
Member
(11-30-2012, 06:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by SlickShoesRUCrazy

it's been debated here on gaf, and the consensus was the n64 was superior hardware wise.

http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=491693


The ps3/wii released a year after the 360, don't even have to argue the wii hardware, and the ps3 is slightly more powerful then the 360, and for the most part, outside of a game or two on the ps3, the 360 has been on it's heals graphically.

On it's heels? More like the 360 was ahead in the vast majority of cases - graphically and in performance. Although I still think the best of Sony's first party stuff is the top of the console tree for this gen.
gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(11-30-2012, 07:29 AM)
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Posted?





http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20120302347.pdf

Not necessarily going to be commercialised, but interesting to see them tinkering with these things.
Hydrargyrus
Member
(11-30-2012, 07:39 AM)
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Originally Posted by gofreak

Posted?

http://i.imgur.com/zSfHL.png

http://i.imgur.com/t3062.png

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20120302347.pdf

Not necessarily going to be commercialised, but interesting to see them tinkering with these things.

I hope that these balls could be removed...
gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(11-30-2012, 08:48 AM)
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SCEA R&D's apparent love affair with eye tracking also continues:



http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20120300061.pdf

That's several eye tracking patents they've filed over the last 18 months or so, ranging from the tracking itself through application in games and non-game software.

Almost reminds me of when a bunch of 'rear-touch' patents popped up in the run up to Vita's announcement...but again, who knows.
Mindlog
(11-30-2012, 08:57 AM)
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The eye tracking would be handy to shift focus and depth in 3D images. It would have to be extremely low latency (standard TV's need not apply) but it sounds like one of the hurdles Carmack was talking about during his Oculus discussions.
gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(11-30-2012, 09:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by Mindlog

The eye tracking would be handy to shift focus and depth in 3D images. It would have to be extremely low latency (standard TV's need not apply) but it sounds like one of the hurdles Carmack was talking about during his Oculus discussions.

It would have to be really really low latency. I wonder if that's possible. The eye can move very quickly.

If such low latency tracking was possible it'd open other opportunities. Like variable resolution distribution across an image - i.e. render the area of focus at a higher resolution than other parts of the screen.

The filing above actually talks about this idea in the context of video - putting the cpu to work on displaying higher resolution video in the area of the screen the user is focussed on. That might be more tolerant of latency in keeping up with the eye than rendering...but for 3D graphics rendering the resolution changes would have to keep up with the eye. Not sure it's possible.
Mindlog
(11-30-2012, 09:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by gofreak

It would have to be really really low latency. I wonder if that's possible. The eye can move very quickly.

If such low latency tracking was possible it'd open other opportunities. Like variable resolution distribution across an image - i.e. render the area of focus at a higher resolution than other parts of the screen.

The filing above actually talks about this idea in the context of video - putting the cpu to work on displaying higher resolution video in the area of the screen the user is focussed on. That might be more tolerant of latency in keeping up with the eye than rendering...but for 3D graphics rendering the resolution changes would have to keep up with the eye. Not sure it's possible.

Another popular topic during the Oculus presentations. But yeah the hurdles are immense and I doubt it can be put to that use any time soon. Certainly not with the average displays out right now anyways.
JJD
Member
(11-30-2012, 09:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by Amir0x

I really hope they're smarter than that because a market with little competition is a bad thing... but I guess time will tell :P

I think MS and Sony can manage to market a 499 machine if the specs are really good and the launching lineup of games is amazing.

I always thought that most people complaining about the PS3 price at release did it because the initial games were not that good (outside a few exceptions) and it took quite some time to get things going.

Imagine if the PS3 launched with Uncharted, God of War 3, Killzone 2 and GT5?

I know, 4 first party games at launch is not realistic, but if the software was there most people would have paid 600 bucks smiling.

There's a lot of people there with money problem that still waste resources to buy new cell phones, tablets and all kinds of shit.
Last edited by JJD; 11-30-2012 at 09:41 AM.
jeff_rigby
Member
(11-30-2012, 09:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by gofreak

SCEA R&D's apparent love affair with eye tracking also continues:



http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20120300061.pdf

That's several eye tracking patents they've filed over the last 18 months or so, ranging from the tracking itself through application in games and non-game software.

Almost reminds me of when a bunch of 'rear-touch' patents popped up in the run up to Vita's announcement...but again, who knows.

This is a big find. I suggest others take the time to read through the patent. It's all about affecting devices based on user(s) gaze (eye tracking).

One example is a large screen TV in a bar with multiple windows in the corners of the screen and a large central window with sound. A computer tracks the attention of viewers and makes the window with the most attention the central window.

A XTV commercial detects the users gaze on a target area and brings up a browser window for more information.

A Car alerts the driver if it detects the drivers eyes are not directed at a potential threat.

A PDF text display outputs audio prompts if it detects the users gaze is not directed at the screen.

This is Sony forward thinking and planning to incorporate new features in their CE products. Sorta goes with their trying to dominate the video imaging sensor market. Eye tracking is also necessary for glassless S3D on 4K TVs to target a users eyes rather than forcing him to move inches to the right or left to be in a sweet spot.

This also pretty much confirms that high resolution cameras will also be IR depth cameras (IR is the primary light source to track eye movement indoors) coming with both game consoles. Eventually most CE products will have embedded APUs and eye tracking.

How accurate and how viable this technique; how much resolution does the IR camera need and how far from the camera in what viewing angle must the user be, processing power etc. is not specified and this may limit applications.

___________________________________________________________________________ ________

"For future reference, the next links a that are merely quotes of Jeff Rigby will be deleted without comment and result in infractions or temp-bans." on Beyond 3D.

Supporting embedded links and Bolding don't make it across with copy & paste, you must put the idea in the cites into your own words and support the cite if you wish to use it.
Last edited by jeff_rigby; 11-30-2012 at 10:56 AM.
DieH@rd
Member
(11-30-2012, 10:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

"For future reference, the next links a that are merely quotes of Jeff Rigby will be deleted without comment and result in infractions or temp-bans." on Beyond 3D.

I see nothing wrong with this. The only thing that they are enforcing is proper descriptions for leaving links that lead to outside source who really likes to speculate. And no, NeoGAF is not a place for you to vent your frustrations about their decisions.
jeff_rigby
Member
(11-30-2012, 10:24 AM)
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Originally Posted by DieH@rd

I see nothing wrong with this. The only thing that they are enforcing is proper descriptions for leaving links that lead to outside source who really likes to speculate. And no, NeoGAF is not a place for you to vent your frustrations about their decisions.

It's not a problem for me, I'm just making sure that others are aware of policies as cites I've found and paraphrasing of my posts here make it into BY3D. The problem is the supporting embedded links and Bolding don't make it across with copy & paste. This sometimes makes it difficult to support speculation and BY3D is not open minded for the most part. People citing me then have a choice to link to NeoGAF or click on every embedded link in my text and edit them into a BY3D post. That takes work.....

It's also safer on BY3D to let me take the flak for speculation rather than post it as their own.

An example of the misunderstandings that can occur is the criticism of Seronx's BIG.little speculation because "EPA Energy Star third Tier requirements and impact on Game Consoles" is something I found and I don't think has been discussed in BY3D. BIG.little is supported by my thread and is one of the reasons I found merit in the speculation.

Compare my post on NeoGAF with the cite on BY3D. The embedded links and cites in my posts are for the most part NOT speculation. Those are the valuable parts of my posts not the sometimes wild speculation (noise as Shifty calls it).

The linkedin cite I found 7) Elizabeth Gerhard's Projects (IBM employee) and an International project involving the Xbox 360 @ 32nm and NO design work for a PS3 refresh at 32nm was also used by Eurogamer in an article.

The 3) Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint document from 9/2010 I found was cited everywhere including BY3D.

They are all in this thread for reference.
Last edited by jeff_rigby; 11-30-2012 at 11:40 AM.
Maxrunner
Member
(11-30-2012, 10:39 AM)

Originally Posted by Amir0x

Yeah, $400 is the ceiling I expect too. I think Sony is at least smart enough to not replicate the prices that drove PS3 into the ground early on.

I think Microsoft will be the interesting one here. It's going to have the next-gen Kinect tech built-in from the start, right? So if you add that into the package alongside a moderately competent technical package, things can start to get quite expensive indeed...

Which is why MS is already out for me...
mrklaw
MrArseFace
(11-30-2012, 10:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by onQ123

could Next Gen see 1 of the biggest improvements between console gens do to GPGPUs?

&

GPGPU Computing & why you should be more excited about Kinect 2 & the Next PS-Eye.,


Sometimes I think I talk about things too early for most people to understand what I'm talking about so it might seem like I'm just talking crazy when I talk about stuff.

But I have a feeling that my threads are going to make a lot of sense in the next year or so especially if the PS4 & Xbox Next is going to be designed the way I think they will be designed with the full APU working as the CPU in the new consoles by having the GPGPU inside of the APU as a computing beast finishing what the SPUs in the Cell started.

Sounds good to me. If they do that then perhaps they can get away with simpler CPU cores
StevieP
Member
(11-30-2012, 11:58 AM)

Originally Posted by quest

There will be a 399.99 or less SKU for both 720/PS4 no question about it. I would not be suprised if the PS4 is a more traditional console to go back to its roots and have a 299 SKU. If MS sells a non kinect 2 SK

I don't think they will. It's integral.

U I could see that going for 299.99. I still think nintendo is cooking the books there is no way the Wii U costs that much to make. The tablet controller is not that expensive. It does not have high res or even multi-touch screen or a SOC to power it. It is a dummy terminal with a big battery and a lot of plastic.

They're selling it at a per-unit loss, confirmed by the CEO. So no book cooking. Ever wonder why there hasn't been any real price drops on the current HD consoles in awhile, and why the new PS3 costs... the same? lol

Originally Posted by TAJ

Do we even know there's a Kinect 2 for sure?
The existing Kinect is capable of reading four times as much point data as it does now. 360 just doesn't have the USB bandwidth for it.
Anyway, packing it into the lowest-priced SKU would be suicide.

Kinect will be very important to MS.

Originally Posted by gofreak

Posted?





http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20120302347.pdf

Not necessarily going to be commercialised, but interesting to see them tinkering with these things.

Extremely interesting find...

Originally Posted by mrklaw

Sounds good to me. If they do that then perhaps they can get away with simpler CPU cores

Such as 4-8 Jaguars? :p
jeff_rigby
Member
(11-30-2012, 01:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by StevieP

I don't think they will. It's integral. Kinect will be very important to MS.

Yes very important to both as the Sony patent found by gofreak and this earlier Sony depth camera patent shows.

They're selling it at a per-unit loss, confirmed by the CEO. So no book cooking. Ever wonder why there hasn't been any real price drops on the current HD consoles in awhile, and why the new PS3 costs... the same? lol

For the PS3, it's nearing EOL and perhaps custom GDDR3 and XDR memory as well as wireless "G" and the current HDMI port are more expensive than newer memory etc. Try to buy DDR2 DIMM and compare the price of DDR3 DIMM, DDR3 DIMM is MUCH cheaper. This is another point indicating either the PS3 is soon dead or there will be a refresh using newer cheaper more powerful hardware with energy saving features built in.

Such as 4-8 Jaguars? :p

Grin yup.... 1 or 2 packages not 4 for 16 Jaguar CPUs? What else could use the free Xbar CPU slots if only two Jaguar CPU packages are used?

If I remember correctly each SPU = 16 ALUs = 1/4 GCN CU and 4SPUs = 1CU = 1SPE4SPU MPA CPU package but GPU CUs are stream processors and are only optimal for multiple same "stream" processing because the setup time for few small calculations is too high compared to CPUs. http://www.simbiosys.ca/blog/2008/05...-gpu-and-fpga/



All this gives us it that Sony can look at GCN CUs as MPA 1PPU4SPU cell elements and might explain dropping Cell or the MPA cell patent vision. On the other hand GPUs may still suffer from cache setup which CPUs do better and a couple of Cell MPA packages can support BC and faster code for non-stream processing.

So if looking for 18 CUs in a PS4 GPU it could be 16 GPU CUs plus 2 "mini" Cell MPA CUs, does this work with any of the rumored GPUs for PS4?

Cell/B.E. has demonstrated benchmark results (e.g. for real-time ray tracing application) far superior to that of the G80 GPU despite the theoretical throughput being lower than the GPU.

This is from a old paper so I don't know how GCN CUs compare. If they are very similar to Cell then the end game might be more ray tracing than rastorized images with OpenGL 5.

Originally Posted by http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=44885833&postcount=1229

The next Xbox and PlayStation are not "GPU-centric." There are pretty significant things happening with their processor architectures

Interesting discovery while looking for a possible confirming OpenGL 5 roadmap:

Originally Posted by http://www.bestofandroid.com/2012/08/07/khronos-announces-the-opengl-es-3-0-specification/

However, considering that next year we should start seeing mobile GPU’s that are already more powerful than current-gen consoles, I expect Khronos to release the OpenGL ES 4.0 standard with geometry shaders a lot sooner than having to wait another 5 years. My guess is that we’ll see OpenGL ES 4.0 in 2014, or 2015 at most. Since OpenGL 4.0 supports tessellation, I wouldn’t be surprised if they added that feature in OpenGL ES 4.0 as well.

Last edited by jeff_rigby; 11-30-2012 at 05:03 PM.
SolidSnakex
Member
(11-30-2012, 02:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by gofreak

Posted?

[IG]http://i.imgur.com/zSfHL.png[/IMG]

[IG]http://i.imgur.com/t3062.png[/IMG]

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20120302347.pdf

Not necessarily going to be commercialised, but interesting to see them tinkering with these things.

Are those balls required to make Move work (even its successor)? The idea of a detachable controller with Move isn't so bad, but the balls on the top are just awful.
bigboss370
Junior Member
(11-30-2012, 02:33 PM)
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so why isn't the cell being used again? wasn't it supposedly a type of super computer? or is it too hard to program with?
StevieP
Member
(11-30-2012, 02:33 PM)

Originally Posted by bigboss370

so why isn't the cell being used again? wasn't it supposed a type of super computer? or is it too hard to program with?

It's a dead end as far as CPU technology goes...

So Jeff... what would you say to an 8-core Jaguar-based APU in conjunction with a dedicated still Pitcairn-ish GPU?
Graphics Horse
graphics horse
graphics horse
does whatever a
graphics horse does
(11-30-2012, 02:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakex

Are those balls required to make Move work (even its successor)? The idea of a detachable controller with Move isn't so bad, but the balls on the top are just awful.

I suppose it's to be visible from as many angles as possible, but I still think they could go for something more discreet with an arrangement of small IR LEDs.
The new patent could be I/R I haven't looked. Edit: sheet 24 of 28 shows a bunch of different shaped 'ball' designs I think.
Last edited by Graphics Horse; 11-30-2012 at 02:46 PM.
phosphor112
Banned
(11-30-2012, 02:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by SlickShoesRUCrazy

it's been debated here on gaf, and the consensus was the n64 was superior hardware wise.

http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=491693


The ps3/wii released a year after the 360, don't even have to argue the wii hardware, and the ps3 is slightly more powerful then the 360, and for the most part, outside of a game or two on the ps3, the 360 has been on it's heals graphically.

Lmao, come on there buddy. Of course the PS1 was outclassed by the 64, because it came out almost a year later. It also featured outdated carts that were (yes, fast, but) small and expensive.

Just like the PS2, GC and Xbox came out nearly TWO YEARS later.
jeff_rigby
Member
(11-30-2012, 02:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by StevieP

It's a dead end as far as CPU technology goes...

So Jeff... what would you say to an 8-core Jaguar-based APU in conjunction with a dedicated still Pitcairn-ish GPU?

Great in a 2013 game console but it has no legs to last the distance. Either we get refreshes every 3 years with more performance (not the current Console model with fixed performance) or something more is coming that perhaps GCN can do like more than the bundled ray tracing that AMD is currently talking about.

RE: Cell is dead?; The advantage of APUs (CPU + GPU) is that they are cheap building blocks, the same is true of GPU CUs. It boils down to cost and efficiency. GCN CUs may be able to take on CELL as to perf/watt. Then again, Cell which has an internal memory bandwidth of 200gb/sec and required very fast external memory in 2006 may come into it's own with TSV supported wide IO memory of 266 Gb/sec.
Last edited by jeff_rigby; 11-30-2012 at 06:34 PM.
KageMaru
Member
(11-30-2012, 03:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakex

When the PSone and PS2 were released they were the most powerful consoles on the market. They made a big deal of the tech with the PS2. Don't you remember the Emotion Engine?

I keep seeing this posted (always in defense of Sony) but it makes no sense. The Saturn and DC were the most powerful consoles at launch, does that mean Sega was a technical leader with hardware?

IMO Sony were VERY smart with the design of the PS1. It was fast enough, had relatively great libraries, and was a beautiful design from the performance per cost perspective. The PS2 was alien in design, but necessary to reach that performance level. If they went with a more standard architecture, the leap over the DC wouldn't have been as large. As for the PS3. It's an awesome console, running some of today's best looking games, but it was a design lead by corporate agendas more than developer needs. On top of that, the year older competition has kept up with it throughout this generation.

Sony is a great hardware company, but they are the Gods of engineering like some make them out to be.

*fully expects to get flamed since I'm in a PS4 thread =p

Originally Posted by bigboss370

so why isn't the cell being used again? wasn't it supposedly a type of super computer? or is it too hard to program with?

That was all PR hyperbole.

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

Great in a 2013 game console but it has no legs to last the distance. Either we get refreshes every 3 years with more performance (not the current Console model with fixed performance) or something more is coming that perhaps GCN can do like more than the bundled ray tracing that AMD is currently talking about.

RE: Cell is dead?; The advantage of APUs (CPU + GPU) is that they are cheap building blocks, the same is true of GPU CUs. It boils down to cost and efficiency. GCN CUs may be able to take on CELL as to perf/watt. Then again, Cell which has an internal memory bandwidth of 200gb/sec and required very fast external memory in 2006 may come into it's own with TSV supported wide IO memory of 200+ mb/sec.

This makes no sense to me. How can something be good for 2013 but have no legs?
omonimo
Member
(11-30-2012, 03:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by gofreak

Posted?





http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20120302347.pdf

Not necessarily going to be commercialised, but interesting to see them tinkering with these things.

Isn't it pretty old? From what I remember is the first prototype of the Move.
Graphics Horse
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(11-30-2012, 03:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by omonimo

Isn't it pretty old? From what I remember is the first prototype of the Move.

I don't think so, wasn't that with the guy with early move controllers strapped to his feet as he did a bicycle kick?
Some of it could be old, I find these things so difficult to read.

Old split controller:
Last edited by Graphics Horse; 11-30-2012 at 03:11 PM.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
(11-30-2012, 03:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by gofreak

SCEA R&D's apparent love affair with eye tracking also continues:



http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20120300061.pdf

That's several eye tracking patents they've filed over the last 18 months or so, ranging from the tracking itself through application in games and non-game software.

Almost reminds me of when a bunch of 'rear-touch' patents popped up in the run up to Vita's announcement...but again, who knows.

SCEA is working Porn simulator game confirmed.
gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(11-30-2012, 03:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakex

Are those balls required to make Move work (even its successor)?

Not necessarily. They've recently filed for patents around alternative systems that could let them get positioning in other ways (see: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...4&postcount=62). But that doesn't mean they wouldn't still use them over alternatives, depending on bang-for-buck etc.

Originally Posted by omonimo

Isn't it pretty old? From what I remember is the first prototype of the Move.

I remember pre-Move there was a rumour that the controller would be a break-apart dual shock.

Then I remember in one of the videos promoting Move they showed an early thing they were playing about with that was literally a dualshock sawed in half?

This patent application is newly published though, I think, and is from 2011. It seems to go into more detail about what a real controller would need vs their prototype (e.g. the mechanism for latching them together, how the system would know when they're together and apart, tracking them together etc).

It might well be just a tidy up 'just in case' application covering earlier prototype work though.

edit - and yeah, there was that patent Graphics Horse has linked...but it's a bit different and messier than what's presented here. Latches two moves together via a front plate basically...whereas this is a more thorough dual shock/move hybrid.
Last edited by gofreak; 11-30-2012 at 03:17 PM.
Rösti
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(11-30-2012, 03:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Graphics Horse

I suppose it's to be visible from as many angles as possible, but I still think they could go for something more discreet with an arrangement of small IR LEDs.
The new patent could be I/R I haven't looked. Edit: sheet 24 of 28 shows a bunch of different shaped 'ball' designs I think.

The patent reads:

The first portion 12 includes a light controller 130 for controlling the operation of a light source 132. The light source 132 is used to illuminate the reference object 22, and may be activated during tracking of the reference object 22. In some embodiments, the light source 132 can include multiple LEDs to enable the illumination of the reference marker 22 with various colors.

Portion 12 is the right part of the controller, with 130 being the light controller and 132 being a light source (emitter). The same applies for the left part of the controller, then with different reference numbers.

As far as I can tell, the balls have no other purpose than this, but the patent seems to suggest that they can be detached in one way or another. Though I think this may just be a misinterpretation on my side
Graphics Horse
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(11-30-2012, 03:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Rösti

The patent reads:


Portion 12 is the right part of the controller, with 130 being the light controller and 132 being a light source (emitter). The same applies for the left part of the controller, then with different reference numbers.

Thanks, I guess the multi LED they mention there is simply for blending different colours, hard to know what's just copy and pasted from the Move.

Originally Posted by Rösti

As far as I can tell, the balls have no other purpose than this, but the patent seems to suggest that they can be detached in one way or another. Though I think this may just be a misinterpretation on my side

Fig 19 A shows a removable ball attatchment and all the possible components it could contain, although the patent says a real one would only use a subset of those, just covering all bases.


This shape appears in the patent and I'd guess it would be more representative of a final product shape than the literal take on a split dual shock.


edit: some more:
Last edited by Graphics Horse; 11-30-2012 at 03:43 PM.
AranhaHunter
Banned
(11-30-2012, 03:40 PM)

Originally Posted by gofreak

Posted?





http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20120302347.pdf

Not necessarily going to be commercialised, but interesting to see them tinkering with these things.

Those balls on top of the controllers are ugly as sin. They need to be removable or made smaller.

I fully expect something like this for the PS4 controller though. The PS4 Eye camera will probably be an HD camera that is more advanced than Kinect and close to Kinect 2.0. The DS4 will be the break apart DS3/Move combo. That's my guess.

For the WiiU like counter they will use the vita and its subsequent iterations/models. Possibly even non vita os (android) tablets. Same with 720.
jeff_rigby
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(11-30-2012, 04:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by KageMaru

This makes no sense to me. How can something be good for 2013 but have no legs?

You saw the quote that in 2014 portable GPUs will be as powerful as current game consoles.

There are several coming technical revolutions;

1) New battery technology
2) 3D stacking and very fast migration from 20nm to 5nm in four steps all on the 20nm plane but impacting transistor efficiency/speed.
3) Magnetic memory at 20nm is supposed to be as cost efficient as DRAM but retains memory even with power interruption and it does not require a refresh, another power savings.

The above should make the PS4 just a ho hum performing obsolete console not able to keep up with 2020 or earlier portables that when connected to the power grid have the performance of a 2014 game console.

AMD promises 10 teraflop notebooks by 2020 and we are ecstatic with a 1.8 Tflop game console in 2014?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Tick-Tock

http://ir.amd.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=74...rol-news&nyo=0
Last edited by jeff_rigby; 11-30-2012 at 04:47 PM.
SolidSnakex
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(11-30-2012, 05:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by KageMaru

I keep seeing this posted (always in defense of Sony) but it makes no sense. The Saturn and DC were the most powerful consoles at launch, does that mean Sega was a technical leader with hardware?

The whole discussion kicked off with Reiko laughing at the idea that Sony would release a new console that's only slightly more powerful than the Wii U. He ended it by saying "This is Sony". Which means that he feels that there's an obvious consumer expecation that Sony won't put out unimpressive hardware. SlickShoesRUCrazy replied to that by basically saying that the PS3 was really the only time that Sony has pushed their hardware. But that isn't true as both the PSone and PS2 were very impressive at the time of their launch.

The point was that Sony's hardware has always been technically impressive when they're put on the market. Sure they (the PSone and PS2) were both outclassed by consoles that came out after them, but for a time they were the best on the market. Not just the best, but also universally viewed as being impressive hardware for the time. And that's all you can really ask for. So there is an obvious consumer expectation that they'll keep that up.
DieH@rd
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(11-30-2012, 05:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

AMD promises 10 teraflop notebooks by 2020 and we are ecstatic with a 1.8 Tflop game console in 2014?

2020 is 7 years away. Just look what he had 7 years ago. I mean Broadwell will come soon and it will be produced in freaking 14nm. Who knows what we will have in 2020, stacking and shit. :)
Last edited by DieH@rd; 11-30-2012 at 05:19 PM.
thuway
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(11-30-2012, 05:16 PM)
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Even with 20 teraflops, ray tracing is still an order of 3 to 4 magnitudes away.
Meelow
Banned
(11-30-2012, 05:19 PM)

Originally Posted by KageMaru

This makes no sense to me. How can something be good for 2013 but have no legs?

It would be annoying and cost a lot for Sony to add legs to the PS4, I wouldn't want my PS4 to walk away from me.

Jokes
KageMaru
Member
(11-30-2012, 05:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakex

The whole discussion kicked off with Reiko laughing at the idea that Sony would release a new console that's only slightly more powerful than the Wii U. He ended it by saying "This is Sony". Which means that he feels that there's an obvious consumer expecation that Sony won't put out unimpressive hardware. SlickShoesRUCrazy replied to that by basically saying that the PS3 was really the only time that Sony has pushed their hardware. But that isn't true as both the PSone and PS2 were very impressive at the time of their launch.

The point was that Sony's hardware has always been technically impressive when they're put on the market. Sure they (the PSone and PS2) were both outclassed by consoles that came out after them, but for a time they were the best on the market. Not just the best, but also universally viewed as being impressive hardware for the time. And that's all you can really ask for. So there is an obvious consumer expectation that they'll keep that up.

I see, sorry I tried to follow the context but obviously didn't catch it all. Fair points and I agree. I expect Sony to launch a very impressive console next gen and so far it's likely I'll get the ps4 at launch.
jeff_rigby
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(11-30-2012, 06:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=44885833&postcount=1229

The next Xbox and PlayStation are not "GPU-centric." There are pretty significant things happening with their processor architectures

By no stretch can Jaguar CPUs be considered significant things happening with their processor architectures.

Is he talking GPU as CPU?
User Name Here
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(11-30-2012, 09:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Graphics Horse

Thanks, I guess the multi LED they mention there is simply for blending different colours, hard to know what's just copy and pasted from the Move.



Fig 19 A shows a removable ball attatchment and all the possible components it could contain, although the patent says a real one would only use a subset of those, just covering all bases.


This shape appears in the patent and I'd guess it would be more representative of a final product shape than the literal take on a split dual shock.


edit: some more:

If they use the same number of sensors as the WII U controller, as well as that data filter, they probably wouldn't need the balls. At least I hope they wouldn't....

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