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Labadal
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(12-02-2012, 05:24 PM)
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Lock if old.

Brian Fargo Acquires Torment IP Rights, Spiritual Successor in the Works? I sure hope so.
The only question is if there is a possibility to have Obsidian folks help in some way, them being busy with Project Eternity and all.

Source: GameBanshee via RPGCodex.

The folks at RPG Codex did some internet sleuthing and came up with some interesting news: apparently inXile's CEO Brian Fargo now owns the Torment IP.

It should be noted that the IP is not tied to the Planescape universe, which is currently discontinued, meaning that even if the company were to work on a successor to the beloved Infinity Engine title, it most likely would be a spiritual follow-up rather than an actual sequel.

Most of our readers will likely remember Colin McComb's write-up on the original title , which in light of this news probably means that he's involved in the project (assuming a project exists, of course) in some measure.

Considering Chris Avellone, who wrote the bulk of the original's dialogue, is probably going to be tied up to Project Eternity after wrapping up his work on Wasteland 2, his potential involvement is at the very least up in the air.

Update: Colin McComb posted on the RPG Codex to specify that the license holder wasn't interested in licensing the Planescape setting:

I'll put up a post later about the relative importance of Planescape to the Torment story, but right here I'll say that WotC has little apparent interest in licensing Planescape. I first approached them in February, and it became clear early on that they didn't seem very interested in talking to me.

That's okay, though. Other, equally cool options exist.

BearPawB
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(12-02-2012, 05:24 PM)
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Lets see how wasteland turns out first
Bomber Bob
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(12-02-2012, 05:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by BearPawB

Lets see how wasteland turns out first

agree'd
AHA-Lambda
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(12-02-2012, 05:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by BearPawB

Lets see how wasteland turns out first

.
HoosTrax
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(12-02-2012, 05:28 PM)
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How exactly does this work.

Take Torment out of the Planescape AD&D campaign setting, and I'm not sure what you end up with. I mean the setting itself is pretty central to the game and plays a big role in setting the game apart from any of the other isometric RPGs of that era. The atmosphere of Sigil, the concept of the multiple planes, the other-worldliness of Planescape in general. I mean, I guess they could create a genericized version of that sort of setting...(Arcanum had its own sort of thing going on)
epmode
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(12-02-2012, 05:29 PM)
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If this happens (and I think it will,) Avellone has to be involved. There's no chance that Fargo would be so stupid as to greenlight a spiritual sequel of a game so loved for its prose without the guy most responsible for writing it.
Xanathus
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(12-02-2012, 05:30 PM)
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Yeah, I'm not sure how I'd feel if he started a Kickstarter for a Torment sequel before Wasteland 2 is released.
Lancehead
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(12-02-2012, 05:31 PM)
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I posted this in the Torment Let's Play thread:http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=301

But yeah, big news, though I wonder how they'll get Obsidian, or specifically, Avellone, involved if/when they make this successor.

There's a second update:

Update 2: Colin has written some more thoughts on the Torment story and the connection a new title would have with Black Isle's classic in an RPG Codex post:

As far as I'm concerned, MCA told a complete and beautiful story. If Chris wants to add sequels, that's his prerogative. If I added direct sequels, that would be fan fiction. I *like* that the question of what happens to his companions after the game has ended remains unanswered. Adding more details cheapens the impact of the original, and the unanswered questions about the companions makes their stories more powerful.

That's why Chris and I have both said that we would not be involved in sequels; we don't need to wrap up every loose end. Spiritual successors, yes - there are Torment stories that are untold. But not sequels, at least not right away (the last clause is just in case Chris discovers a new story he wants to tell with those companions).

So why do I want to use Torment? Because it was a deeply personal, philosophically engaging story that was not tied to the fate of the world - it *is* the end of the world for some characters, and it can sweep across the depths of infinity, but it remained a story about one man and the impact he had on those around him. Using Torment in the title tells you what kind of game it is. It's a specific story about a specific kind of person, a thematic link.

For the people who insist the game be a Planescape game, I have two points:
1. As I said, WotC does not appear to be interested in licensing Planescape.
2. Anyway, countless people told us that a Planescape game would never succeed, because it was "too weird." We just had to tell them to trust us - we had it handled. As you've seen, we did.

I'm not going to ask you to trust me just yet (I enjoy not having feces flung at me), but I will ask that you keep an open mind until you see what I'm thinking.

Last edited by Lancehead; 12-02-2012 at 05:36 PM.
Labadal
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(12-02-2012, 05:38 PM)
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It can work without the Planescape rights. I do agree that they have a bigger challenge because they would need to create stuff from scratch, but I personally never wanted Planescape 2. All I've wanted is a spiritual successor. I'm not getting super hyped yet, but it is still interesting and good that the rights to Torment is now in the hands of someone who wants to do something with it.
WorstUsernameEver
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(12-02-2012, 05:41 PM)
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I'd expect Avellone's involvement is heavily dependent on how much time he has to spend on Eternity. Likely most of his time, given that he's one of Obsidian's co-founder and Project Eternity is probably their most important project period, and by far too.

That said, I still hope he's involved! Other competent people can work on similar themes and created settings as interesting as Planescape, but it would still feel weird to see him not working on the spiritual successor of the title that defined his career.
Bomber Bob
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(12-02-2012, 05:42 PM)
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BTW, no more wasteland 2 updates?
Lancehead
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(12-02-2012, 05:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by WorstUsernameEver

I'd expect Avellone's involvement is heavily dependent on how much time he has to spend on Eternity. Likely most of his time, given that he's one of Obsidian's co-founder and Project Eternity is probably their most important project period, and by far too.

That said, I still hope he's involved! Other competent people can work on similar themes and created settings as interesting as Planescape, but it would still feel weird to see him not working on the spiritual successor of the title that defined his career.

Yeah, I expect Avellone's involvement to be along the lines of his involvement in Wasteland 2.
SkyandSun
Banned
(12-02-2012, 05:45 PM)
Potentially exciting. Though I don't know how much of PS:T is Colin McComb's - I've always thought it was mainly Avellone's lead and direction that made it into the game it is.

Avellone's pretty busy at the moment, with Eternity and W2 (though I think his work there is coming to an end).
Labadal
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(12-02-2012, 05:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bomber Bob

BTW, no more wasteland 2 updates?

Think there'll be one early next year.

@SkyandSun: Think he wrote that his involvement in Wasteland 2 is over now.
epmode
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(12-02-2012, 05:48 PM)
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I don't understand this story. It won't use the Planescape universe, obviously, and it won't even use the same characters as the original. There even seems to be a chance that Avellone won't be involved.

So they just bought the rights to the name "Torment?" Seems pretty cynical to me. Especially since Avellone has been so vocal about creating a spiritual sequel sometime in the future.

But I guess I don't know how important Colin McComb was to the original game.
SkyandSun
Banned
(12-02-2012, 05:48 PM)

Originally Posted by Labadal

Think there'll be one early next year.

@SkyandSun: Think he wrote that his involvement in Wasteland 2 is over now.

Well, let's wait and see the Kickstarter. It's not the name that matters - it's the ideas & talent behind the game that make it into something special.

I've asked Chris Avellone if he can shed any light on the situation, who knows if I'll get a reply, but he's generally pretty open when he's able to be.

And I agree with @epmode - it would be good to get clarity on how influential McComb was on the original game. I believe he did do a lot of work on the story, but have never really looked into it deeply.

Finally - given recent cancellations, it's possible Obsidian would be keen for any sort of work at the moment, so maybe they'll get involved in some official capacity too.
Last edited by SkyandSun; 12-02-2012 at 05:51 PM.
Brother None
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(12-02-2012, 06:10 PM)
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So they just bought the rights to the name "Torment?" Seems pretty cynical to me. Especially since Avellone has been so vocal about creating a spiritual sequel sometime in the future.

But I guess I don't know how important Colin McComb was to the original game.

McComb was one of the two main guys on the Planescape setting after Zeb Cook left (with Monte Cook) and the second-most important designer on Torment. I did an interview with MCA and McComb years ago that should clarify some things here: here and here.

On Planescape setting: as McComb commented, it's basically retired as a setting by TSR, and have no interest in licensing it out. Any Torment sequel would be very unlikely to use AD&D, no matter who did it. MCA commented as much himself.

MCA is indeed done with Wasteland 2, but will be fully occupied with Eternity for a while. He also still needs to do his WL2 novella, haha.
nonadventurer
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(12-02-2012, 06:10 PM)
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Wasn't McComb one of the writers on the pen and paper Planescape? Cool if so.

Fake edit: He was:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

He is primarily known for his work on the Planescape line, for which he and Monte Cook were the primary designers after the departure of David "Zeb" Cook from TSR.

So yeah, great news.

e:f,b
Brother None
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(12-02-2012, 06:12 PM)
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Here's McComb's comments as posted on the Codex:

As far as I'm concerned, MCA told a complete and beautiful story. If Chris wants to add sequels, that's his prerogative. If I added direct sequels, that would be fan fiction. I *like* that the question of what happens to his companions after the game has ended remains unanswered. Adding more details cheapens the impact of the original, and the unanswered questions about the companions makes their stories more powerful.

That's why Chris and I have both said that we would not be involved in sequels; we don't need to wrap up every loose end. Spiritual successors, yes - there are Torment stories that are untold. But not sequels, at least not right away (the last clause is just in case Chris discovers a new story he wants to tell with those companions).

So why do I want to use Torment? Because it was a deeply personal, philosophically engaging story that was not tied to the fate of the world - it *is* the end of the world for some characters, and it can sweep across the depths of infinity, but it remained a story about one man and the impact he had on those around him. Using Torment in the title tells you what kind of game it is. It's a specific story about a specific kind of person, a thematic link.

For the people who insist the game be a Planescape game, I have two points:
1. As I said, WotC does not appear to be interested in licensing Planescape.
2. Anyway, countless people told us that a Planescape game would never succeed, because it was "too weird." We just had to tell them to trust us - we had it handled. As you've seen, we did.

I'm not going to ask you to trust me just yet (I enjoy not having feces flung at me), but I will ask that you keep an open mind until you see what I'm thinking.

EDIT: aww crap, this was posted above. Sorry, didn't see. It does address some concerns, but honestly there's a lot of details about this project that aren't public yet but should make RPG fans more excited.
Last edited by Brother None; 12-02-2012 at 06:15 PM.
SkyandSun
Banned
(12-02-2012, 06:23 PM)
Cool, thanks for the clarity BN. I had read most of the above on Codex but nice to have it summarised (Mr TT here).

Looking forward to the inevitable kickstarter. Hopefully they have learnt the lesson of Tom Hall, and to an extent Braben and Molyneux: don't just say 'give us money for a game'; pitch it properly, have stuff to show, treat your potential backers with respect.

Having said that, if they intend to trade off the Torment name to any extent, I really feel Avellone should be involved. Otherwise... well, I can't see how a small part of me would feel it is a bit cynical, no matter how honourable their intentions.
Last edited by SkyandSun; 12-02-2012 at 06:27 PM.
Lancehead
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(12-02-2012, 06:49 PM)
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My feelings are pretty mixed on this one. I'd really like Fargo to make a statement on what were his intentions acquiring "Torment", what he intends to do with it, and how it would involve Avellone. Because while McComb had a big role in the Planescape setting, Torment was "Chris' baby", to refer to McComb.

On the other hand, I already got two spiritual successors to Torment from Obsidian, so the attachment to the name Torment is somewhat irrelevant.
diamount
Banned
(12-02-2012, 06:51 PM)

Originally Posted by Lancehead

Yeah, I expect Avellone's involvement to be along the lines of his involvement in Wasteland 2.

Over? The game isn't coming out until 2014 supposedly, I can see a lot changing in terms of game mechanics.
Basileus777
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(12-02-2012, 06:54 PM)
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Without the Planescape setting, what's the point? If you want to make something similar, you don't need to buy the name, hell Avellone has heavily borrowed from Torment in writing for other games.
nonadventurer
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(12-02-2012, 07:09 PM)
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Two more comments from Brian Fargo that have been posted at RpgCodex:

I commend the sleuthing abilities of the Codex. There are many other pieces to the pie on this project that I can't speak to yet which prevents me from much comment. I need to get the other elements in order so you can fully understand the detail, team, approach and reasoning first. There will lots of pleasant surprises but I had not planned on talking about it yet.

I will say that it has nothing to do with any of Interplay/Black Isle's efforts. I noticed some concern with that.

So basically he says that RpgCodex's sleuthing came as a suprise to him, and that Herve Cain isn't involved. Thank god for the latter - and lol at the former.
Labadal
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(12-02-2012, 07:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by Basileus777

Without the Planescape setting, what's the point? If you want to make something similar, you don't need to buy the name, hell Avellone has heavily borrowed from Torment in writing for other games.

He wouldn't go out of his way to get the rights if he didn't think it would be beneficial for the project.

So this will most probably be a Kickstarter project. The question now is: When will they put up a possible kickstarter? They have Wasteland 2 in the works, and the company they could possibly collaborate with are busy working with Eternity. On the other hand, I don't know of any other Inexile projects being worked on at the moment. And Obsidian has Project Eternity and South Park (releasing next year). There might also be a next gen RPG being worked on at Obsidian. Then there is also a comment from Fargo that he wants California to become the new RPG empire. (Don't remember his words, but you get the point.)
Lancehead
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(12-02-2012, 07:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by nonadventurer

So basically he says that RpgCodex's sleuthing came as a suprise to him, and that Herve Cain isn't involved. Thank god for the latter - and lol at the former.

Well, he should've expected the sleuthing, McComb's blog post was pretty transparent.
Brother None
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(12-02-2012, 07:33 PM)
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My feelings are pretty mixed on this one. I'd really like Fargo to make a statement on what were his intentions acquiring "Torment", what he intends to do with it, and how it would involve Avellone. Because while McComb had a big role in the Planescape setting, Torment was "Chris' baby", to refer to McComb.

Yip. Definitely aware of that. As mentioned by others, this came a little bit as a surprise. They know what they want to do and why, but expect some quiet for a while. Fargo is definitely going to explain the how and why of what he's doing though, why use the Torment IP, etc. It's cool to see this initial feedback though, I think there's definitely something to say for the "so why do it without Planescape?" viewpoint.

Colin and/or Fargo will definitely talk more exactly about this stuff. And plans can be changed if the concerns simply turn to be too substantive. But y'know, in due time!
Grayman
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(12-02-2012, 07:48 PM)
I really hope Fargo or anyone else isn't starting a second project and running back to the crowdfunding well.
epmode
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(12-02-2012, 07:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by Grayman

I really hope Fargo or anyone else isn't starting a second project and running back to the crowdfunding well.

Fargo has already said that he will stick to crowdfunding for his next project like Wasteland. I suppose it would be possible to fund a game himself if Wasteland 2 does well but he's pretty much fed up with traditional publishers.
Labadal
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(12-02-2012, 08:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by Grayman

I really hope Fargo or anyone else isn't starting a second project and running back to the crowdfunding well.

The question is what else they can do? Probably not many publishers interested. I can think of maybe two that would have the slightest interest in an isometric rpg like Torment.
Brother None
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(12-02-2012, 08:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by epmode

Fargo has already said that he will stick to crowdfunding for his next project like Wasteland. I suppose it would be possible to fund a game himself if Wasteland 2 does well but he's pretty much fed up with traditional publishers.

Well, you gotta plan ahead and figure your crowdfunding "sales" will cut into your final sales. Wasteland 2 is paid for but will it then sell enough to completely fund a new title? I'd be careful with that.

And yeah, publishers aren't even interested in doing a top-down Wasteland title when interest should be high after Fallout 3 (raising interest in the setting and arguably highlighting a niche). Torment isn't just old-school style, it's also inevitably going to be a weird setting and subverting tropes and non-epic story. No publishers would touch that with a 10' pole.
Zeliard
(12-02-2012, 08:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by epmode

But I guess I don't know how important Colin McComb was to the original game.

Colin McComb was hugely critical to Planescape: Torment's development, and is a veteran of Planescape in general.

Having said that, if there's one thing I don't want, it's a continuation of the original Torment's story. Take it the spiritual successor route. They don't have access to the Planescape setting, anyway. It shouldn't have anything to do with the original characters.
Brother None
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(12-02-2012, 08:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zeliard

Having said that, if there's one thing I don't want, it's a continuation of the original Torment's story. Take it the spiritual successor route. They don't have access to the Planescape setting, anyway. It shouldn't have anything to do with the original characters.

Both MCA and McComb have already said they will not do a direct continuation of Torment's story. Torment's story is complete. *Maybe* a spinoff for one of the companions, like Dak'kon's story, but even that, both in any recent comments have said they'd do any follow-up a) without AD&D and b) not as a direct continuation.
Acosta
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(12-02-2012, 08:36 PM)
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I'm confused. I have read McBomb post and all but I don't understand very well what's the use of Torment without Planescape. Sigil was a really important element of what made Torment especial (or it was for me at least, only second to the writing of course). And it would plain silly to use any of the characters of Torment for a sequel or a spiritual sequel ( I COULD be convinced of having Morte around once again).

Exited, confused and scared at the same time, I hope they don't do anything stupid.

BTW: bow to the Almighty Codex for this one.
Zeliard
(12-02-2012, 08:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Brother None

Both MCA and McComb have already said they will not do a direct continuation of Torment's story. Torment's story is complete. *Maybe* a spinoff for one of the companions, like Dak'kon's story, but even that, both in any recent comments have said they'd do any follow-up a) without AD&D and b) not as a direct continuation.

Aye, that's good to hear. Torment's story is about as complete as it gets. Even when it comes to following Dak'kon's escapades afterwards, they'd be hard-pressed to do so without access to the Planescape setting given Dak'kon's relationship to Limbo.

I do think Torment is one of those types of games that lends itself nicely to a "spiritual successor" because it's so unique and immediately recognizable. We aren't exactly overloaded with games of Torment's style and demeanor.

You don't necessarily need the Planescape setting itself, as well, though I would have loved to see more games use such a strong setting. They ultimately only have to transfer over certain key concepts and philosophical underpinnings, and the requisite strangeness, and they've already done most of the job. Avellone wrote a nice bit for Kotaku a while back saying what he'd ideally like to see in a Torment successor.

http://kotaku.com/5935737/the-guy-wh...ould-look-like
Lancehead
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(12-03-2012, 01:26 PM)
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New development!: http://www.gamebanshee.com/news/1102...-director.html

Thanks to a reply to an anonymous question on his Formspring account, we learn that Kevin Saunders, an industry veteran who among other things worked at Obsidian on Neverwinter Nights 2 and its expansions [project director on Mask of the Betrayer - ed], has joined inXile permanently, and will be the project director on their next title:

Are you working at InXile now then?

Yes! I was contracting at inXile in November, but have recently joined full time as a project director. Itís great to be involved in RPGs again and I love the route inXile is taking Ė making games directly for the players. It allows us to explore ideas and gameplay that many, including us, are passionate about, but that arenít mainstream enough for the big publishers (with Wasteland 2 as an obvious example =) ).

Iíll be leading the development of the next game. The writers are finishing up their roles on WL2 and we want to keep that talented group together. Also, by the time WL2 is completed next fall, weíll want preproduction done for the next game so that the development team can rollover to it (after a well-deserved break, of course!). You need different size teams at various points in a project, and having multiple projects in development is important to allow you to keep your team together. So itís time to plan for whatís next!

It should be noted that it's likely that inXile's next title will be a spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment, with (likely significant) contributions from PnP Planescape buff and Torment designer Colin McComb, and set in another game universe (whether licensed or a totally original IP is up in the air at this point).

nonadventurer
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(12-03-2012, 02:06 PM)
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Interesting. Wasn't it George Ziets who was responsible for everything that was great about Mask of the Betrayer, though?
tmarques
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(12-03-2012, 02:12 PM)
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Am I to understand he used money from the Wasteland KS to buy the rights to Torment?
Lancehead
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(12-03-2012, 02:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by nonadventurer

Interesting. Wasn't it George Ziets who was responsible for everything that was great about Mask of the Betrayer, though?

Ziets was key, yes, for the story and plot, and Avellone wrote some major characters.

Originally Posted by tmarques

Am I to understand he used money from the Wasteland KS to buy the rights to Torment?

Most likely not. Also, it's not like 3 million+ is hoards of money that he can afford to divert part of it from Wasteland 2 development.
wrowa
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(12-03-2012, 02:25 PM)
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On a related note, I've just read a Brian Fargo interview in a German print magazine where he's teasing that inXile's next project will be a great surprise to people.

So, yeah, Torment successor fits the bill. I'm really not sure what to think of this, though, considering that Avellone probably won't be all that much involved with it.
Brother None
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(12-03-2012, 02:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by tmarques

Am I to understand he used money from the Wasteland KS to buy the rights to Torment?

No. No money from the Wasteland 2 KS is going to anything involved in this project. He snapped up the rights for free. The name had been abandoned so all he needed to do was register it.

Interesting. Wasn't it George Ziets who was responsible for everything that was great about Mask of the Betrayer, though?

Arguably. Ziets was definitely the man on the writing side. But Saunders deserves a ton of credit for how well managed the project was. Less exciting, admittedly, but it's very important to have someone like that on your team.

Ziets himself has given Saunders a ton of props for his work. Here's some interviews:

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum...hp?topic=468.0
http://www.gamebanshee.com/interview...-betrayer.html
http://www.gamebanshee.com/interview...-betrayer.html
Lancehead
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(12-05-2012, 10:20 PM)
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This is by now old news, but McComb has informed that Avellone has no problems with this new Torment game: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...ment-successor

Colin McComb told me this moments ago:

"As you may recall, Chris [Avellone] mentioned his ideas for a spiritual successor to Torment with some frequency over the summer. This stemmed (at least in part) from discussions he and I were having about the possibility of resurrecting the IP, and this led to my reaching out to Wizards of the Coast. That did not yield fruit, but it did get the two of us talking about what we'd like to see in any regard, and we both agreed that Planescape was not the best route for us to take anyway, due to the mechanical issues and editorial oversight WotC would want.

"The Project: Eternity Kickstarter took them in a different direction than a direct successor. I told Chris that I would not work on a Torment successor without his approval. We talked about it for a bit, and he told me that he was entirely comfortable with me moving forward on a Torment game without him, and he gave me his explicit blessing to do it.

"Right now he's incredibly involved with Project: Eternity, and I do not want to distract him from a project that is incredibly important to his company. With that said, I would be happy - no, wait, overjoyed - to have him on board in any capacity whatsoever."

The project itself is still "waaaaaaaay early in pre-production", McComb told me. The team is still being put together.

Will it be funded via Kickstarter as Wasteland 2 was? "No comment," answered McComb. But it's very likely.

epmode
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(12-05-2012, 10:21 PM)
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We talked about it for a bit, and he told me that he was entirely comfortable with me moving forward on a Torment game without him, and he gave me his explicit blessing to do it.

That is not the news I wanted to hear about a Torment successor.
Lancehead
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(12-05-2012, 10:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by epmode

That is not the news I wanted to hear about a Torment successor.

I don't mind, honestly. McComb wants to explore themes similar to that in PS:T. The only reason Avellone had to be asked about it was because of the use of "Torment".
PFD
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(12-09-2012, 12:58 AM)
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Not sure what I feel about this
Zeliard
(12-09-2012, 04:15 AM)
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If there's one person I would trust to helm a Torment-style game without Avellone, it'd be Colin McComb.

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