Chittagong
Gold Member
it has? When?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer
- Thread starter Globox_82
- Start date
it has? When?
Sweetvar's earlier posts were removed.
Or they realised that removal played into the hands of the people searching for info and have decided to let it lie?
Hydrogen Bluebird
Member
bigtroyjon
Member
Explain the 360 GPU then.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
The fact that devkit has 4GB of GDDR5 doesn't mean that console will have as much. Sadly it's almost never true, I think one of X360's devkits is the only that has same amount of ram as the console. With PS3 devktis, it's had 50-100% more memory (console 512, kit 768 or 1GB)
Could be anything but it's nice to hear about the progress.
Brad Grenz
Member
I believe Bkilian specialized in audio at MS, so I think we can assume one is an audio processor of some kind. Useful, sure, not magic. We can probably assume the one in the GPU is the embedded memory. Again, useful, especially is the main memory bandwidth is not hig, but again: not magic. That leaves the "more general purpose" hardware that can help with graphics. Possibly a vector co-processor, or some enhancement to the Jaguar architecture's FPUs. OK. Potentially useful, but not magic. None of these things are the "force multiplier" some are trying to imply the Durango's "custom silicon" will be. We already have rumored equivalents to 2/3 of those for the Orbis: some kind of hig bandwidth memory (GDDR5 or Stacked DDR3/4) and an audio processor capable of "200+ mp3 streams", and potentially full HSA, or higher single threaded performance (if they went with Steamroller) addressing the last point to some degree.
Everyone knew unified shaders were coming. ATI had tried and failed to design a unified shader GPU once already and the standards for DX10 were in the process of being laid out when the 360 was being created. There is no equivalent revolution in GPU design on the horizon.
Think we need to clarify.
I believe thuway's claim is of the target spec being changed to 4GB - i.e. the spec for the final box. Which would align with VG247's rumour a while ago of more recent kits have 'either 8 or 16GB'.
...
Going back to the idea of blocks of silicon for doing specific tasks fast, it's entirely possible. It won't make like-for-like performance in the general case similar to some faster chip but could certainly help for some specific common cases. Blend into a closed box and yeah, things punch above their weight, and perhaps more than average above their weight in targeted tasks.
audio DSP makes sense, I guess MS had some constructive criticism from devs on not wanting to burden the CPU with audio.
edram also makes sense but the rumours should cover that.
vector units don't really make sense when you have a dedicated GPU. Maybe a smaller set more tuned to physx type stuff? But then thats still similar to when we were talking about APU/GPU + Dedicated GPU.
so perhaps some overlap with what has been discussed before.
edram also makes sense but the rumours should cover that.
vector units don't really make sense when you have a dedicated GPU. Maybe a smaller set more tuned to physx type stuff? But then thats still similar to when we were talking about APU/GPU + Dedicated GPU.
so perhaps some overlap with what has been discussed before.
Karak
Member
I see that a few people are really getting ahead of themselves without actually knowing how these things work. There's this "I want to close the deal" attitude which is totally unwarranted at this point.
4GB of unified GDDR5 alone doesn't make any sense. About 1GB of that will need to be allocated to the OS and multitasking (browser, in-game applications, cross game functions and such).
It's completely poor design to pay for an expensive memory and waste it like that to hold almost static datas. At the same time it sounds weird that Sony was shooting for 2GB of total memory and that's it, it's obvious to everyone that that was not enough to run next gen games on top of other OS functionalities in the background.
These things are not designed by amateurish PC assemblers, but by the best engineers in the industry.
Also you can make all the customizations you want but there's no thing as magic or violating basic phisics principles. There aren't magic components which can multiply the performance, there are tricks which allow developers to take shortcuts to do things more efficiently but that's it. Also if those things existed, they wouldn't be invented now, they would be already used in more high end products in different ways.
So yeah, there's a bit of misinformation here, I bit "I want to believe" there. And then there's the fact that we're still stucked with old confusing information.
Personally I'm going to wait for more rumors and details to unfold, right now things don't sound clear to me.
4GB of unified GDDR5 alone doesn't make any sense. About 1GB of that will need to be allocated to the OS and multitasking (browser, in-game applications, cross game functions and such).
It's completely poor design to pay for an expensive memory and waste it like that to hold almost static datas. At the same time it sounds weird that Sony was shooting for 2GB of total memory and that's it, it's obvious to everyone that that was not enough to run next gen games on top of other OS functionalities in the background.
These things are not designed by amateurish PC assemblers, but by the best engineers in the industry.
Also you can make all the customizations you want but there's no thing as magic or violating basic phisics principles. There aren't magic components which can multiply the performance, there are tricks which allow developers to take shortcuts to do things more efficiently but that's it. Also if those things existed, they wouldn't be invented now, they would be already used in more high end products in different ways.
So yeah, there's a bit of misinformation here, I bit "I want to believe" there. And then there's the fact that we're still stucked with old confusing information.
Personally I'm going to wait for more rumors and details to unfold, right now things don't sound clear to me.
specialguy
Banned
yeah, i totally agree. to expect a rumored 1.1-3 tf gpu to perform like a 680 seems foolhardy. There may be some optimizations but they probably wont do miracles.
they may indeed get it to perform closer to the ps4's rumored higher flop count, though.
Patrick Bateman
Member
Yes!
Info at this point in time is really "sensitive" and subject to removal. I would say close to E3 spec leaks will start to get more accurate.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Any way you cut it, these AMD based x86 CPU's in both consoles, suck donkey balls in terms of very low IPC performance.
And they're not even real cores, just 'modules' which share resource's..kind of like hardware assisted hyper threading.
It's why AMD are so uncompetitive in the PC enthusiast market.
And they're not even real cores, just 'modules' which share resource's..kind of like hardware assisted hyper threading.
It's why AMD are so uncompetitive in the PC enthusiast market.
systemfehler
Member
Stacked DDR4 with 1024bit bus could reach 192 GB/s... and we all know that Sony likes stacking.GDDR5 is maybe present only in early devkits.
It would be amazing if Sony could pull off interposer with great APU and 192GB/s memory on it.
Yes that would work if the memory runs at 1.5GHz like in a 7970GHz edition. I wouldn't mind if Sony/AMD achieve the rumoured bandwidth with DDR4 and that AMD wants to show off the technology they bet their company on but the result has to speak for itself and so far I see a rather conservative console which could have launched yesterday.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I do agree. Not magic, but not as bad as the specs suggest. Once we see games it will give a much better indication of where things stand.
specialguy
Banned
For whatever it's worth I was told the ESRAM stuff was *not* counted in the special blocks...
My latest rampant speculation/rumors speculate the GPU one may be something to do with textures. Just rumors though nothing concrete.
edit: i guess this is kinda the wrong thread though, lol.
Close to E3 would be kinda useless, I mean, I'd just watch the official presentation LOL
But at this point I still see big holes and inconsistencies in the different rumor theories.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
That would be pretty great indeed. I think BF3 for example uses approx 1GB of GDDR5 and 1GB of DDR3 ram even on ultra settings (unless you go to some stupid high resolutions or multi monitors, that is).Correct. His excited
I think it uses 1.5GB GDDR5 on ultra @ 1080p.
Bobcat/Jaguar doesn't use modules. Get your facts straight.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Bobcat/jaguar are just refined piledrivers, yes they have extra hardware, but they will still share resources unlike Intel Quad's.
A definite improvement over what's out there now, but still 2nd best.
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
that would mean a 4gb or 8gb confirmation for the final unit i think.
TheGreyHulk
Member
since when was the 720's gpu rumored to be 1.1-1.3 TF? Its rumored to be an HD 8800. The 7800 chip is a 2.5 TF chip at spec's speed. Its mobile variant, named the 7970M, runs at 850mhz and is a 2.17TF chip @ 212mm^2.
the 8800 is the refined GCN architecture and should be better slightly.
MS is rumored to have a monster size chip north of 500mm^2 and we all know jaguar cores are small.
I have a feeling it will be 8GB just a "feeling"....
Evolution_1ne
Banned
feelings are for husbands who beat their wives with golf trophies, professionals have standards.....and that standard needs to be 8gb
Forget any APU you have seen to date.
If these systems carry a single APU they'll be in a different performance class to APUs released thusfar.
(Also, the closest thing to 'a' steambox shown so far has been a system in the same performance class as a vanilla A10 APU so...
)TheGreyHulk
Member
APU doesn't indicate anything of its performance. All it means is that the cpu/gpu is on one die. It has nothing to do with AMD's retail apus that are geared towards laptops.
pharmboy044
Member
For PS4? Then you're contradicting Thuway. Who should I believe?
I love console launches.
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
We're not talking about trinity AMD 5800k APU's here with an inbuilt GPU, at least I hope we're not, what we're talking about is a CPU and shrunken down 7800/8800 class discrete GPU on one single physical package sharing a load of fast RAM, in the same way the WiiU has it's CPU & GPU on a single chip.
Just as a fact check - are Wii U's on one die or on two dies in one package?
APU = one die.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Wii U is a MCM. Separate chips on the same package.
systemfehler
Member
I wonder why Sony settles for the 6GBit/s GDDR5 modules is there a big price difference? According to that Micron PDF 5/6/7 modules have all the same voltage requirements. But a 7Gbit/s module would result in 224GB/s instead of 192.
We don't even know what kind of memory system they're gonna use, let alone the definitive frequency
DeFiBkIlLeR
Banned
Oh, I may have got my terminology wrong, but I was correct in what we're talking about in terms the tech I described, wasn't I.?
systemfehler
Member
We don't even know what kind of memory system they're gonna use, let alone the definitive frequency
Well if the 192GB/s rumour is true it has to be a GDDR5 combination with 6Gbit/s modules at 1500MHz on a 256Bit Bus.
1500 x 4 x 256 / 8 / 100 = 192
7Gbit modules would be 1725MHz.
And for DDR4 it would be 1500MHz and 1024Bit Bus.
jeff_rigby
Banned
http://www.gslb.cleanrooms.com/index/packaging/packaging-blogs/ap-blog-display/blogs/ap-blog/post987_8253609600977646002.html said:
Yields? On one wafer probably vast majority of working chips can work on 6GBit/s but only handful of picked ones can reliably work at 7. I'm just speculating.
Also heat.
Rumor is a rumor, we still don't know the bus width they're using and which kind of modules they will be using.
The former of course has been already decided, the latter should be finalized really late depending on costs and contracts with suppliers.
Also using a 1024 bus with DDR is kinda insane, it misses the point of using DDR in first place.
Right now unfortunately we still haven't clear infos on the memory system or at least something that makes sense (and both 2GB of GDDR5 and 4GB GDDR5 as total memory don't make sense for different reasons).
It's just speculation on my part but I think that the best and most obvious thing to do is to have a memory split which still is unified for game programming purposes.
OS datas, background and non-gaming applications datas will go into a smaller pool (2GB) of cheap DDR3 memory over a 128 bit bus accessed by the CPU.
All the game datas will go into a unified bigger pool of GDDR5 memory which is accessed by both the CPU and GPU through a wider bus (256bit at least).
Still we'll see what they come up with =)
systemfehler
Member
Heat should be the same since all use 1.5V. I can also speculate about yields so your guess is as good as mine. It is hard to find prices for different modules or GDDR5 at all.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
The way I understand it is a MCM/SoC are basically the same. Multiple separate dies on a large package.
An APU is a single die that contains everything.
I'm sure the more technical gaffer can explain it better than me.
I think it can't be overstated what a waste it would be to use a chunk of that expensive GDDR5 for OS, reducing the amount available to games to perhaps 3GB. In a few years time, it'll look a lot less enticing for development. Then again, we must remember that the earliest rumour came with 2GB GDDR5. Now we can assume that that amount was prior to deduction for OS. So following that logic, the first generation/launch games were being designed with around <2GB in mind. So if anything, these devs are experiencing a surplus now. As aforementioned, it's a rosy situation that may quickly sour as developers try to get extract more from the system. It's also a reason why I think there may be more to this. I know it's Sony and they generally make the best or worst of choices but can they be really this short sighted (unless they think the memory footprint of the OS, much like this gen, can be reduced significantly)?
I think (as I had this hunch before) that 8GB dev kit perhaps points to a 4GB GDDR5 and 16GB dev kit points to a 8GB DDR3 (much like MS's configuration).
dr_rus
Member
Not really. In a longer run (and consoles are a long living products) it's better to have a UMA architecture with simplier board than a NUMA architecture with several memory buses/types on board. Memory prices will go down, board complexity is fixed cost mostly.
It's not weird for a platform holder with financial troubles to shoot for the cheapest setup possible.
There are some things you can do in a closed console hardware dedicated to just one main goal and intended to work in a rather small range of screen resolutions. Off chip eDRAM is one such thing, large on chip memory is another. It all comes down to having more bandwidth for less money anyway and that's probably the only place where we can expect something that's not avialable in a high end PC space.
On a side note, I don't believe that even with these customisations next gen consoles will be able to beat high end PCs of 2013 in raw processing power.
Iirc an SoC is just one big die, an APU is just AMD's term for a CPU + GPU in one die. You're right about the MCM though.
it also means nothing when you consider that they could just be a co-gpu for low power usage (OS video usage)