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Karak
Member
(01-11-2013, 10:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by Reallink

I thought the consensus was that 4GB of GDDR5 was impossible in a console as it'd require like 16 sticks and a ridiculously complicated mobo.

New memory configurations take care of things like this.
Baki
Member
(01-11-2013, 10:34 PM)

Originally Posted by Reallink

I thought the consensus was that 4GB of GDDR5 was impossible in a console as it'd require like 16 sticks and a ridiculously complicated mobo.

512MB modules are launching in Q1 2013 for production. So 8 512MB modules gives you 4GB instead of 16 modules. So its far more feasible now.
nib95
Banned
(01-11-2013, 10:35 PM)
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Ok...my brief understanding of this comparison.

PS4 Pro's

- GDDR5 has more than double the bandwidth of DDR3
- Theoretically can be clocked higher
- Should be more energy efficient

720 Pro's

- Double the ram
- GDDR5 bandwidth benefit is only useful with more intensive, pixel hogging games


Does that seem fair?
eighty(one)
Member
(01-11-2013, 10:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by Maximilian E.

Question:
Is GDDR5 twice as fast (or more) to what MS is having in X8OX?

If not, then I would argue that it is better with more RAM.

Or, any devs here.. If you could only choose one thing, what would it be, more ram or fast ram?

Think about RAM like this:

It serves a cache memory. Things load and unload (sound, textures, code) using ram. More ram is good, better for those who are inefficient and sloppy coders. Faster ram, leads to everything optimally unpacking/streaming from memory. It doesn't clog up, or cause loading problems.

Example: if you were syncing pictures from a camera, to PC - do you want the images to compress and then uncompress, which would be efficient (GDDR)? Or do you want to transfer over each full size file one at a time, taking up more space, than is needed(DDR)?

Or like a suitcase: throw clothes in, or fold them? You can fill up the suitcase, in either case, but one is more efficient for the space allowed. The other is a sloppy mess.

My example is not exact, but thing of ram working like that. More RAM is good, but faster - efficient - ram is better. Most developers want more ram, because it's quick and they don't need to be efficient. They can just throw whatever in and not care if it's not optimal.

I don't develop, I understand though
AgentP
Member
(01-11-2013, 10:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by nib95

Ok...my brief understanding of this comparison.

- GDDR5 bandwidth benefit is only useful with more intensive, pixel hogging games

Does that seem fair?

No. This RAM pool is shared for the APU (CPU+GPU) and dedicated GPU. Moving any data around would be much quicker, along with fill rate and rendering related work. The 720 would have to have edram or the equivalent to make up for the DDR3 or it would be in bad shape.
Ryoma-Echizen
Member
(01-11-2013, 10:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Orayn

What I meant was that both of them using AMD CPUs and GPUs from the same series makes the architectural differences much, much smaller than the HD Twins. Hard to say how the memory will pan out.

Jaguar is more less Phenom II + FX instruction set optimized for low power consumption.

Steamroller is gonna be a massive upgrade vs current Vishera FX/Trinity&Richland APU, based on Piledriver cores.

All of this means that major work will be done by the gpu or the gpu+integrated gpu if the designs keeps the gpu of the APU's(physics/AA&AF/Lightning can be offloaded to them).
Last edited by Ryoma-Echizen; 01-11-2013 at 10:43 PM.
TheLight
Member
(01-11-2013, 10:40 PM)
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I'm stupid. What is the problem with the ram again?
Alej
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(01-11-2013, 10:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by Metalmurphy

So many of you making this stupid statement as if speed is actually everything.

Look at Wii U, it gets downports whereas it has more RAM (but slower) than the HD twins.
If you can have 4GB GDDR5 (it's insane in 2013, you know), you are the winner. Even if Durango has 32GB DDR3... :D

And, you know, when one guy says: "oh they won't waste GDDR5 with OS" (OS! OS! OS!!!!), he doesn't mean that the GDDR5 will be dedicated VRAM and that another pool will be used for the CPU in the APU (lol ^^)... He just says that they may end up with a small quantity of DDR3 for OS multitasking.
PopcornMegaphone
Member
(01-11-2013, 10:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by AgentP

No. This RAM pool is shared for the APU (CPU+GPU) and dedicated GPU. Moving any data around would be much quicker, along with fill rate and rendering related work. The 720 would have to have edram or the equivalent to make up for the DDR3 or it would be in bad shape.

Just looking at the spec rumors I would expect the ps4 to be more powerful, but all the rumors suggest they are about even. I expect the 720 to have a healthy amount of edram.
USC-fan
aka Kbsmoker
(01-11-2013, 10:43 PM)

Originally Posted by nib95

Ok...my brief understanding of this comparison.

PS4 Pro's

- GDDR5 has more than double the bandwidth of DDR3
- Theoretically can be clocked higher
- Should be more energy efficient

720 Pro's

- Double the ram
- GDDR5 bandwidth benefit is only useful with more intensive, pixel hogging games


Does that seem fair?

nope.
SniperHunter
Member
(01-11-2013, 10:44 PM)
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I wonder if MS will panic and try to switch from DDR3 to GDDR5 now...
gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(01-11-2013, 10:44 PM)
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Just as a side note, the memory setup would be in keeping with the philosophy a Sony VP outlined in a presentation a little while back.

He explained that their opinion was that high bandwidth was a key to rendering performance.

He outlined the PS2 approach - relatively high bandwidth to a relatively small amount of memory.

The PS3 approach - relatively 'medium' bandwidth to a larger amount of memory.

And then said for the future they want the best of both: relatively high bandwidth to a relatively large amount of memory.

I think 4GB-200GB/s would be in keeping with that philosophy.

Microsoft's philosophy, if rumours are true, is obviously different. Relatively small bandwidth to a LARGE amount of memory + high bandwidth to a relatively small amount of memory.

Either could opt for what the other is doing so I think they're both sincerely looking at their own requirements and what developers are asking of them. They've probably come across a lot of various opinions...satisfying all of them would be impossible. Sony was probably told very resoundingly, though, that 2GB was too little, hence the change.

What I'm curious about in Microsoft's case is the talk of Windows 8 and the suggestion that their box might almost present a games machine and a custom W8 'PC' type experience in parallel, each with dedicated resources, perhaps substantial resources for the latter relative to a normal console OS. It would make sense to opt for larger memory over faster memory if that goal is a core one.
Last edited by gofreak; 01-11-2013 at 10:48 PM.
nib95
Banned
(01-11-2013, 10:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by USC-fan

nope.

At least elaborate, else the post is pointless and does nothing to inform anyone.
Karak
Member
(01-11-2013, 10:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by PopcornMegaphone

Just looking at the spec rumors I would expect the ps4 to be more powerful, but all the rumors suggest they are about even. I expect the 720 to have a healthy amount of edram.

Wide bus, edram, the AMD Pre-emption, or a mix of them. Could be anything. Edram for sure.
meta4
Junior Member
(01-11-2013, 10:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by eighty(one)

Think about RAM like this:

It serves a cache memory. Things load and unload (sound, textures, code) using ram. More ram is good, better for those who are inefficient and sloppy coders. Faster ram, leads to everything optimally unpacking/streaming from memory. It doesn't clog up, or cause loading problems.

Example: if you were syncing pictures from a camera, to PC - do you want the images to compress and then uncompress, which would be efficient (GDDR)? Or do you want to transfer over each full size file one at a time, taking up more space, than is needed(DDR)?

Or like a suitcase: throw clothes in, or fold them? You can fill up the suitcase, in either case, but one is more efficient for the space allowed. The other is a sloppy mess.

My example is not exact, but thing of ram working like that. More RAM is good, but faster - efficient - ram is better. Most developers want more ram, because it's quick and they don't need to be efficient. They can just throw whatever in and not care if it's not optimal.

Interesting analogy. So what you are saying is Bethesda would like more RAM while other dev's will be able to make use of the faster Ram more efficiently.
Karak
Member
(01-11-2013, 10:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by meta4

Interesting analogy. So what you are saying is Bethesda would like more RAM while other dev's will be able to make use of the faster Ram more efficiently.

You were not the only one that thought that:)
Mr.Fresh
Member
(01-11-2013, 10:47 PM)
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Man reading threw this thread gets me hyped for PS4/Durango. I just hope neither block used games and we have at least SOME backward compatibility. E3 surely won't disappoint this year.
Nachtmaer
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(01-11-2013, 10:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Alej

Look at Wii U, it gets downports whereas it has more RAM (but slower) than the HD twins.
If you can have 4GB GDDR5 (it's insane in 2013, you know), you are the winner. Even if Durango has 32GB DDR3... :D

And, you know, when one guy says: "oh they won't waste GDDR5 with OS" (OS! OS! OS!!!!), he doesn't mean that the GDDR5 will be dedicated VRAM and that another pool will be used for the CPU in the APU (lol ^^)... He just says that they may end up with a small quantity of DDR3 for OS multitasking.

You should read this.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...postcount=6256
Ryoma-Echizen
Member
(01-11-2013, 10:51 PM)
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Jaguar 4 cores @1Ghz with GCN 128SP @***Mhz (600Mhz I guess) runs nicely the new Dirt game at nice details 720p.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=FruxOZ9Nfp0
Last edited by Ryoma-Echizen; 01-11-2013 at 10:54 PM.
D23
Member
(01-11-2013, 10:51 PM)
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im gonna be so broke by the end of the year
Psychotext
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(01-11-2013, 10:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by SniperHunter

I wonder if MS will panic and try to switch from DDR3 to GDDR5 now...

Yeah, I bet they only found out what was in Sony's machine today.

They both know exactly what they're up against.
Alej
Member
(01-11-2013, 10:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Nachtmaer

You should read this.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...postcount=6256

What i wanted to say is that having a pool reserved for the OS doesn't imply that the 4GB GDDR5 pool would only be used as dedicated VRAM.
Ashes
Member
(01-11-2013, 10:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ryoma-Echizen

Jaguar is more less Phenom II + FX instruction set optimized for low power consumption.

Steamroller is gonna be a massive upgrade vs current Vishera FX/Trinity&Richland APU, based on Piledriver cores.

All of this means that major work will be done by the gpu or the gpu+integrated gpu if the designs keeps the gpu of the APU's(physics/AA&AF/Lightning can be offloaded to them).

not really...
Ryoma-Echizen
Member
(01-11-2013, 10:56 PM)
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Richland APU vs Trinity APU (these at the same 32nm, with the same VLIW4 based gpu, same Piledriver cores CPU)vs crappy intel GT3 integrated gpu's.

Lion Heart
Member
(01-11-2013, 11:01 PM)
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Will we see an improvement in sound fidelity next gen? I want to hear things crystal clear, a pin drop across the room!
MikeE21286
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(01-11-2013, 11:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by eighty(one)

Think about RAM like this:

It serves a cache memory. Things load and unload (sound, textures, code) using ram. More ram is good, better for those who are inefficient and sloppy coders. Faster ram, leads to everything optimally unpacking/streaming from memory. It doesn't clog up, or cause loading problems.

Example: if you were syncing pictures from a camera, to PC - do you want the images to compress and then uncompress, which would be efficient (GDDR)? Or do you want to transfer over each full size file one at a time, taking up more space, than is needed(DDR)?

Or like a suitcase: throw clothes in, or fold them? You can fill up the suitcase, in either case, but one is more efficient for the space allowed. The other is a sloppy mess.

My example is not exact, but thing of ram working like that. More RAM is good, but faster - efficient - ram is better. Most developers want more ram, because it's quick and they don't need to be efficient. They can just throw whatever in and not care if it's not optimal.

I don't develop, I understand though


So wouldn't the DRR be more friendly to developers? This is assuming that the amount of DDR is relatively equal in usefulness to the amount of GDDR...
Eppy Thatcher
Member
(01-11-2013, 11:03 PM)
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Hyyyyyyyyyyype!

I gotta start looking for my second job now cause i'm copping that PS4 day 1 no doubt.
Oersted
Junior Member
(01-11-2013, 11:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by shinobi602

Much more advanced Kinect 2.0+ Illumiroom+set top box+hopefully more exclusives+different controller?

Average joe will definetly invest such amounts of money^^.

Originally Posted by Backfoggen

Good games.

Angry Birds 4k version confirmed^^?

Originally Posted by DieH@rd

At start? Same thing as with every console.

Exclusive games.

Seriously, can we expect a game / games which will attract enough customers to the new systems at this economy state?
Jason's Ultimatum
Americans out of Mexico! The Border Tax Equity Act
(01-11-2013, 11:14 PM)
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So 720 has more ram, but it's slower, while PS4 has less ram, but faster? If so, which one has the advantage?

If Team ICO leaves Sony and goes multiplatform, then I'll definately get 720.
DieH@rd
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(01-11-2013, 11:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jason's Ultimatum

So 720 has more ram, but it's slower, while PS4 has less ram, but faster? If so, which one has the advantage?

Both have advantages and disadvantages. Both architectures are viable for gaming.


edit - Im so glad that both systems looks to have similar performance [on paper]. People will be way more civil with one another when there is no clear "winner".
Baconsammy
Banned
(01-11-2013, 11:15 PM)

Originally Posted by Oersted

Average joe will definetly invest such amounts of money^^.



Angry Birds 4k version confirmed^^?



Seriously, can we expect a game / games which will attract enough customers to the new systems at this economy state?

The same economy in which millions upon millions of people not only buy iPads, Kindles, iPhones etc but continue buy the updated versions each and every year? Yeah, I think they'll be fine.
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
(01-11-2013, 11:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Metalmurphy

So many of you making this stupid statement as if speed is actually everything.

speed isn't everything and neither is large amounts. they need to achieve a balance. what if they have some sort of edram too? what if they have some sort of low performance ram for the os features?

Originally Posted by Ryoma-Echizen

Richland APU vs Trinity APU (these at the same 32nm, with the same VLIW4 based gpu, same Piledriver cores CPU)vs crappy intel GT3 integrated gpu's.

not this stuff again...
1stStrike
Banned
(01-11-2013, 11:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Oersted

Average joe will definetly invest such amounts of money^^.



Angry Birds 4k version confirmed^^?



Seriously, can we expect a game / games which will attract enough customers to the new systems at this economy state?

Can people afford it? Yes, people are still dropping tons of cash on electronics. Will they? Who knows. I can't predict the future, but I expect there to be millions of units being moved in the first few months no questions asked.

The only real problem I can see for them right now is digital games bleeding money away from the retail game market. I believe it was in September or so that NPD claimed that somehing like 12 million gamers "mysteriously disappeared". But, they didn't disappear, they just got an ipad / android device and play Angry Birds now instead of dropping $60 on console games.
Carlbeego
Member
(01-11-2013, 11:17 PM)
Ima get both systems and end up not buying games like I did this generation.
Punkster_NY
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(01-11-2013, 11:20 PM)
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About damn time some PS4 info gets leaked. Thanks for posting this my good sir. <3
Psychotext
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(01-11-2013, 11:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by DieH@rd

People will be way more civil with one another when there is no clear "winner".

Wouldn't put money on that one. :D
Azure J
Member
(01-11-2013, 11:23 PM)
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Oh man, I need this E3 to hurryup and happen already. Shit's going to be so exciting.
Striek
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(01-11-2013, 11:25 PM)
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Both systems sound like they're shaping up to be more powerful than a lot of people were predicting last year :)

I just hope there is no gimmicks attached to either system.
Jhriad
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(01-11-2013, 11:26 PM)
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2013 Q4 launch

Take all of my money Sony. as long as it has BC
Zophar
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(01-11-2013, 11:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jason's Ultimatum

So 720 has more ram, but it's slower, while PS4 has less ram, but faster? If so, which one has the advantage?

If Team ICO leaves Sony and goes multiplatform, then I'll definately get 720.

It won't be very different from this generation. There will be a handful of things one platform does better than the other, and vice versa. In fact the disparity will probably even be smaller than the one between the PS3/360. My bet is that it'll be software support and interface that defines the differences more than anything.

Assuming these rumors become realized, of course.
i-Lo
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(01-11-2013, 11:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by eighty(one)

Think about RAM like this:

It serves a cache memory. Things load and unload (sound, textures, code) using ram. More ram is good, better for those who are inefficient and sloppy coders. Faster ram, leads to everything optimally unpacking/streaming from memory. It doesn't clog up, or cause loading problems.

Example: if you were syncing pictures from a camera, to PC - do you want the images to compress and then uncompress, which would be efficient (GDDR)? Or do you want to transfer over each full size file one at a time, taking up more space, than is needed(DDR)?

Or like a suitcase: throw clothes in, or fold them? You can fill up the suitcase, in either case, but one is more efficient for the space allowed. The other is a sloppy mess.

My example is not exact, but thing of ram working like that. More RAM is good, but faster - efficient - ram is better. Most developers want more ram, because it's quick and they don't need to be efficient. They can just throw whatever in and not care if it's not optimal.

I don't develop, I understand though

Isn't this the same kind of thinking which was detrimental to development of PS3 ports by third parties? Sloppy or not, where time is money, you want to make a piece of tech as developer friendly as possible so that the bad ones can do good a job and the good ones do a great one.
Gorillaz
sober as a drunk judge
(01-11-2013, 11:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Baconsammy

The same economy in which millions upon millions of people not only buy iPads, Kindles, iPhones etc but continue buy the updated versions each and every year? Yeah, I think they'll be fine.

The apple craze is unmatched tho. Same for mobile/tablet I cant see video gane consoles doing numbers like that....

Unless they go for broke and just focus on OS features and shit
Last edited by Gorillaz; 01-11-2013 at 11:33 PM.
DevilWillcry
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(01-11-2013, 11:40 PM)
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I think Sony is in a better position for early internal software output for the next generation. On the software side of things we can probably expect first year PS4 titles from:

Guerrilla Games (Last major game was KZ3 in early 2011)
Sucker Punch (Last major game was Infamous 2 in mid 2011)
Naughty Dog (Last major game was Uncharted 3 in late 2011)
Evolution Studios (Last major game was MS:Apocalypse in mid 2011)

Then you also have Sony developers who are likely already working on PS4 titles but are not as far along as the above studios:

Polyphony Digital (Last major game was GT5 late 2010)
-This studio is notorious for having ridiculously long development cycles.

Sony Santa Monica (Last major game was GOWIII in early 2010)
-Stig and team #1 has been rumored to be working on a new IP since GOWIII released.

Media Molecule (Last major game was LBP2 in early 2011)
-They are also developing Teraway for PSVita

Of course, this is all based on when these studios last shipped PS3 games along with knowledge regarding how many teams each studio has as well as the timing of previous output from these studios.

EDIT:
Not to mention wildcards like Team ICO moving The Last Guardian to PS4 similar to Ico going PS1->PS2. There are also many "second party" deals Sony likely has in place with studios like Quantic Dream and Insomniac for PS4.
Last edited by DevilWillcry; 01-11-2013 at 11:47 PM.
Duffyside
Banned
(01-11-2013, 11:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by DevilWillcry

I think Sony is in a better position for early internal software output for the next generation. On the software side of things we can probably expect first year PS4 titles from:

Guerrilla Games (Last major game was KZ3 in early 2011)
Sucker Punch (Last major game was Infamous 2 in mid 2011)
Naughty Dog (Last major game was Uncharted 3 in late 2011)
Evolution Studios (Last major game was MS:Apocalypse in mid 2011)

Then you also have Sony developers who are likely already working on PS4 titles but are not as far along as the above studios:

Polyphony Digital (Last major game was GT5 late 2010)
-This studio is notorious for having ridiculously long development cycles.

Sony Santa Monica (Last major game was GOWIII in early 2010)
-Stig and team #1 has been rumored to be working on a new IP since GOWIII released.

Media Molecule (Last major game was LBP2 in early 2011)
-They are also developing Teraway for PSVita


Of course, this is all based on when these studios last shipped PS3 games along with knowledge regarding how many teams each studio has as well as the timing of previous output from these studios.

Well, someone else mentioned that MS has been on a hiring spree (and clearly they're all working on 720, if the 360's 2013 release schedule is any indication). But I think I agree with you... if... Sony are smart enough to realize they need new IP. Other than Gran Turismo, and MAYBE Uncharted 4, Sony needs a fresh breath of air. No Killzone, no LBP, no Infamous (to my despair), and DEFINITELY no Motorstorm. All these teams' games should be something new, otherwise we're just looking at prettier versions of things we already know.
Pachterballs
Banned
(01-11-2013, 11:44 PM)
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can't wait for both consoles.

uncharted 4 baby!!!!

hnnnngggghhhhhhhh
MikeE21286
Member
(01-11-2013, 11:45 PM)
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So we're talking $400-$500 I'm guessing right?
Proelite
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(01-11-2013, 11:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by DevilWillcry

I think Sony is in a better position for early internal software output for the next generation. On the software side of things we can probably expect first year PS4 titles from:

Guerrilla Games (Last major game was KZ3 in early 2011)
Sucker Punch (Last major game was Infamous 2 in mid 2011)
Naughty Dog (Last major game was Uncharted 3 in late 2011)
Evolution Studios (Last major game was MS:Apocalypse in mid 2011)

Then you also have Sony developers who are likely already working on PS4 titles but are not as far along as the above studios:

Polyphony Digital (Last major game was GT5 late 2010)
-This studio is notorious for having ridiculously long development cycles.

Sony Santa Monica (Last major game was GOWIII in early 2010)
-Stig and team #1 has been rumored to be working on a new IP since GOWIII released.

Media Molecule (Last major game was LBP2 in early 2011)
-They are also developing Teraway for PSVita

Of course, this is all based on when these studios last shipped PS3 games along with knowledge regarding how many teams each studio has as well as the timing of previous output from these studios.

Way too early next generation listwars commence.
Kazuma Kiryu
Member
(01-11-2013, 11:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jason's Ultimatum

If Team ICO leaves Sony and goes multiplatform, then I'll definately get 720.

team ico is already dead as we used to know it. ueda already said he's going to leave sony after the last guardian. if he ends up sticking around, creates another studio or just goes away to do something else, it's anyone's guess.
gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(01-11-2013, 11:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Duffyside

Sony needs a fresh breath of air. No Killzone, no LBP, no Infamous (to my despair), and DEFINITELY no Motorstorm.

Media Molecule & Evolution are working on new IPs for sure. Killzone won't be going anywhere though. LBP? MM isn't working on it anymore but I'd be kind of surprised if there wasn't at least one outing for it on PS4 from another dev. But MM are working on something new.
DevilWillcry
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(01-11-2013, 11:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Proelite

Way too early next generation listwars commence.

Hey I'm just trying to get an idea of what the playing field is going to look like in terms of first-party software early on. For MS I can see Turn 10, Epic, Crytek, and many of the new start-up studios pumping out early Durango titles.

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