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CrashPrime
Member
(03-17-2013, 03:42 AM)
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So I just received notification that my Oculus Rift developers kit will not be shipping with Doom BFG as "Unfortunately, we’ve been informed that DOOM 3 BFG Edition will not support the Rift development kit by the time we begin shipping".

Like the amazing company they are, they're offering:

- $20 Steam Wallet credit, perfect for buying your next game on Steam (including DOOM 3 BFG Edition without Rift developer kit support if you still want it).

- $25 Oculus Store credit, which can be applied to future purchases at the Oculus Store including Oculus Latency Testers, new Oculus t-shirts, and more Rift development kits.

Bad ass.

No official reasons have been given as to why, however, with any high profile partnerships, rumors and speculation will permeate the conversation.

Update on DOOM 3

When we launched the Kickstarter campaign, we said we’d bundle a copy of DOOM 3 BFG Edition with each development kit as an extra “Thank you.” Unfortunately, we’ve been informed that DOOM 3 BFG Edition will not support the Rift development kit by the time we begin shipping.
Since DOOM 3 won’t be available, we’d like to try and make it up to you.

Replacement Rewards
If you were supposed to receive a DOOM 3 BFG Edition, we’ll replace it with one of the following rewards:

- $20 Steam Wallet credit, perfect for buying your next game on Steam (including DOOM 3 BFG Edition without Rift developer kit support if you still want it).

- $25 Oculus Store credit, which can be applied to future purchases at the Oculus Store including Oculus Latency Testers, new Oculus t-shirts, and more Rift development kits.

- A full refund for your pledge. If you’re unhappy with the options above, we completely understand. Email us at support@oculusvr.com, and we’ll be happy to discuss your specific order or refund your pledge in full.

You’ll need to choose your new reward by logging into the Oculus Order Manager: https://www.oculusvr.com/sales/





You’ll see a new section, Reward Replacement, with instructions on selecting your new reward. Codes for the replacement rewards will be delivered in April. You'll default to the the Oculus Store credit if you don’t make a selection by April 5.

Again, we share your pain. This isn’t a sure-fire remedy for your broken heart, but we hope it helps.

Shipping Update

Development kits begin shipping soon!

Assuming you’re in the first batch of development kits to ship out, the next 24 hours are your absolute last chance to update your shipping address.

Please visit https://oculusvr.com/sales/ one last time to make sure everything’s up to date! Once we begin processing your rewards, your shipping address will be locked.

Once you’ve confirmed that your shipping address is correct and your order status is ‘Ready’, you can kick back and relax; your developer kit will ship without any delays.

Day Zero

If you’re worried that there won’t be any content to to try when your dev kit arrives: fear not. We’re hard at work with Meteor and Adhesive to make sure that Hawken’s an awesome, mech-piloting experience and there are more great developer showcases on the way!



Hold out hope, fellow developers; there’s good news on the horizon.

-- Palmer and the Oculus team

Also, on another positive note, judging from the e-mail it sounds like the first batch of kits are going out EXTREMELY soon!!
Last edited by CrashPrime; 03-17-2013 at 05:19 AM.
GrizzNKev
Member
(03-17-2013, 03:43 AM)
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Ok people, pool together all of your Oculus Store credit and buy me one of these things.
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
(03-17-2013, 03:44 AM)
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I will be there for the Rift with the second model. Hopefully by then they will have worked out the kinks, more devs will be supporting it, and better resolution too.
Alchemy
Member
(03-17-2013, 03:44 AM)
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Got this as well. Getting that $20 Steam credit, though not sure what to do with it.
Agent Ironside
Banned
(03-17-2013, 03:44 AM)
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Just got this email. Wonder what the hold up is...
Neuromancer
The Mayuh of f'n Bawston
(03-17-2013, 03:45 AM)
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I wonder what happened. An issue with Zenimax?
Juan29.zapata
Member
(03-17-2013, 03:46 AM)
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That's a pretty awesome way to make it up! And even 5 bucks more if you use in their site! Pretty great.
Unknown Soldier
Member
(03-17-2013, 03:46 AM)
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The Rift has been delayed quite a lot now but they did add a workaround for glasses-wearing people, so I'm okay with it.

The Carmack wasn't happy about the head-tracking latency. So why not just turn that off and ship DOOM3 BFG anyways so we can at least play it with VR support?
epmode
Member
(03-17-2013, 03:48 AM)
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Will id still be adding Oculus support to Doom 3 BFG?
Blueblur1
Member
(03-17-2013, 03:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by CrashPrime

Like the amazing company they are, they're offering:

Uh, if you say so...
SalsaShark
Trust no one!
Keep your laser handy!
(03-17-2013, 03:51 AM)
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Oculus Rift has no game
CrashPrime
Member
(03-17-2013, 04:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by Blueblur1

Uh, if you say so...

Well, they said they were going to throw in a freebie game, and it turned out they had a problem doing that, so ... they offered up credit for the best PC gaming store, or their store, for the aprox. value of said freebie.

That's pretty good PR in my book.

Originally Posted by SalsaShark

Oculus Rift has no game

Oculus Rift has one game, down from two.

Hawken still on track.
Last edited by CrashPrime; 03-17-2013 at 04:06 AM.
jett
Member
(03-17-2013, 04:11 AM)
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This is...weird. They demo the Rift with Doom 3.
Übermatik
Member
(03-17-2013, 04:13 AM)
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How much does one of these cost? And it plugs into your PC right? I just wanna play amazing HAWKEN.
Fried Food
Member
(03-17-2013, 04:16 AM)
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oh please oh please don't let this squabble ruin the rift.

edit:Now that I read both links I don't see where the squabble lies.

Poor interpretation of whats going on OP.
Last edited by Fried Food; 03-17-2013 at 04:20 AM.
SalsaShark
Trust no one!
Keep your laser handy!
(03-17-2013, 04:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by CrashPrime

Hawken still on track.

oh that's right

really should have backed. Got scared because i'd probably get a crazy customs fee if they shipped it here.
LemonGremlin
Member
(03-17-2013, 04:19 AM)
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I can't believe this would actually be because of an argument about latency between John Carmack and Oculus. Got to be a Zenimax/IDTech 5 thing surely?
SalsaShark
Trust no one!
Keep your laser handy!
(03-17-2013, 04:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by LemonGremlin

I can't believe this would actually be because of an argument about latency between John Carmack and Oculus. Got to be a Zenimax/IDTech 5 thing surely?

you really dont know Carmack do you
statham
be hot
be naughty
be Xbox
(03-17-2013, 04:21 AM)
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I want one, what can I trade to get one.
Fried Food
Member
(03-17-2013, 04:22 AM)
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Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

The Rift has been delayed quite a lot now but they did add a workaround for glasses-wearing people, so I'm okay with it.

The Carmack wasn't happy about the head-tracking latency. So why not just turn that off and ship DOOM3 BFG anyways so we can at least play it with VR support?

Head tracking is the main feature of this thing :|
Agent Ironside
Banned
(03-17-2013, 04:24 AM)
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Whoa, just saw the rest of the email. So is this a little sooner than their target ship dates?
alphaNoid
Banned
(03-17-2013, 04:24 AM)
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This sounds like Zenimax/iD have some serious reservations about Rift. That might elude that there are some serious problems with the hardware since they don't want to associate themselves with it.

Originally Posted by statham

I want one, what can I trade to get one.

Quality and precision? Ask Zenimax
epmode
Member
(03-17-2013, 04:25 AM)
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Does anyone know if the Oculus support has been permanently canceled or just delayed?
Somnid
Corporate Ballwasher
Ignore everything I say
(03-17-2013, 04:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by LemonGremlin

I can't believe this would actually be because of an argument about latency between John Carmack and Oculus. Got to be a Zenimax/IDTech 5 thing surely?

Carmack is really gung-ho about VR. He managed to ramble on about it for 3 hours at Quake-con and took a sabbatical to just research it. If he's bailing on Rift then I'm kinda worried about it, the man knows what he's talking about.
Fried Food
Member
(03-17-2013, 04:27 AM)
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Zenimax and ID didn't mind that inferior port getting released on consoles.
Zukuu
Banned
(03-17-2013, 04:29 AM)
Wait, there is latency now? Since when?
Clevinger
Member
(03-17-2013, 04:32 AM)
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nm, I think I misunderstood
Feep
Second-hand Citizen
(03-17-2013, 04:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by Zukuu

Wait, there is latency now? Since when?

Since physics
RadicalVelocity
Member
(03-17-2013, 04:36 AM)

Originally Posted by CrashPrime

Bad ass. I think Palmer Luckey and John Carmack are having a squabble, as Carmack had a fairly lengthy blog post basically laying it out on the line saying the latency on the Oculus was going to be a deal breaker, and Palmer basically responded saying "we got this John, stay out of my way"

Not seeing it. I read the original blog post back when Carmack originally posted it, but i remember no such thing. If you don't mind, can you point me to the parts that made you suspect such a thing?

Otherwise, no reason this is anything more than bfg not supporting the changes implemented for the latest iteration of the kit (5.6" -> 7" screen requiring different warping shader, different sensor....)
CrashPrime
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(03-17-2013, 04:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by Zukuu

Wait, there is latency now? Since when?

Since computer interfaces were invented, and not hardwired into physical sensors on our bodies?

The belief is that latency will be nearly imperceptible if proper predictive algorithms are developed for the software end of things. The hardware itself is beyond what anything has been before it.

What reassures me about this, is the fact that Luckey and the Oculus team aren't pretending like this isn't an issue. They're making latency testers available for developers for under $100, and it looks like a pretty elegant solution compared to Carmacks high-speed camera measurement method.

Even at the current "not good enough for Carmack" latency levels, it's still blowing everyones mind in every demo that managers to pop up on Youtube.

Originally Posted by RadicalVelocity

Not seeing it. I read the original blog post back when Carmack originally posted it, but i remember no such thing. If you don't mind, can you point me to the parts that made you suspect such a thing?

Otherwise, no reason this is anything more than bfg not supporting the changes implemented for the latest iteration of the kit (5.6" -> 7" screen requiring different warping shader, different sensor....)

Oh it's just wild speculation on my behalf, I don't know either of them personally, but I just see this little passive aggressive blog posting on both ends, followed by an announcement of non-support, and I put 2+2 together. Could be (probably am) totally off base.

Palmer has said many times that the developer version of the Rift has about 50ms of lag and he wants to cut it to less than 30ms. John put up his blog post saying that 50ms isn't good enough and he had his own ideas about how to make it better.

To me it seems this was a little egotistical on John's behalf (*gasp* The Carmack has an ego, SHOCKING NEWS!) to post the blog entry about something he's been quite intimately involved with (the Rift) instead of discussing this with OculusVR themselves, and keeping the conversation private.

John put the whole team on blast by posting that up, almost as a way to say "hey, it's not as good as you're saying it is", and also saying "hey I have the better solution, and you guys don't".

Palmer put up the blog entry himself discussing the proper solutions, almost as if to say "John brings up these points, but we aren't ignoring the problem, and have our own solution, different from what John's is telling everyone".
Last edited by CrashPrime; 03-17-2013 at 04:47 AM.
YuShtink
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(03-17-2013, 04:59 AM)
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He's probably just having to focus all of his attention and time on Doom 4 and the next engine. The early backer community will be sure to get it working with the rift as soon as possible (it's open source), they are already planning and talking about it now.

Oculus has stated the latency has been reduced even more since John Carmack was saying it was the greatest VR demo in the world with the old sensor/display, so I highly doubt he's suddenly changed his opinion on the Rift's overall quality.
Zukuu
Banned
(03-17-2013, 05:00 AM)
I know there is latency, but I didn't know that it is an "issue" now, like someone mentioned above. I can't remember, but how many frames latency was mentioned it will have?
CrashPrime
Member
(03-17-2013, 05:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by Zukuu

I know there is latency, but I didn't know that it is an "issue" now, like someone mentioned above. I can't remember, but how many frames latency was mentioned it will have?

Sounds like aprox. 50ms on the current production developer kits, with a goal of >30ms for the consumer version.

To put that in terms of "frames" assuming a locked 60fps with consistent frame latency, 1 frame renders at about 16ms. That's about 3 frames of latency for the developer kit, and 2 frames of latency for the consumer version.
TheExodu5
(03-17-2013, 05:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by Fried Food

oh please oh please don't let this squabble ruin the rift.

edit:Now that I read both links I don't see where the squabble lies.

Poor interpretation of whats going on OP.

Same here. Where's the squabble? If it's just speculation, it has no place in the OP, as people will take it at face value.
border
Banned
(03-17-2013, 05:18 AM)
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So what games will support the Occulus Rift now?

I was mostly interested hearing about Mirror's Edge as a soft launch title.
TheExodu5
(03-17-2013, 05:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by border

So what games will support the Occulus Rift now?

I was mostly interested hearing about Mirror's Edge as a soft launch title.

Several games will support it thanks to a third party driver being written, but I would expect the support to be less than ideal (mostly the scale of the game might be off).
CrashPrime
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(03-17-2013, 05:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheExodu5

Same here. Where's the squabble? If it's just speculation, it has no place in the OP, as people will take it at face value.

I didn't intend for the speculation of a squabble between Carmack/Luckey to be dominating conversation, so I edited the OP.

Originally Posted by TheExodu5

Several games will support it thanks to a third party driver being written, but I would expect the support to be less than ideal (mostly the scale of the game might be off).

VorpX (closed source) has stated that the following games with 3D-support are: Crysis, Bioshock, Skyrim, Fallout 3, COD: Black Ops, Mass Effect 2+3, Flight Simulator X, Race Driver Grid (no headtracking for now), Far Cry, Half-Life 2, Metro 2033, rFactor

Vireio Perception (open source) has: Left 4 Dead, Half-Life 2, Portal 2, Skyrim, Mirror’s Edge, AaAaAA!!!, Unreal Tournament 3, Dear Esther, and DiRT 2
Last edited by CrashPrime; 03-17-2013 at 05:26 AM.
Punisher
Junior Member
(03-17-2013, 05:25 AM)
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It's a bummer but oh well, it will probably be supported in the end. I don't mind getting the 20 dollar steam credit.

I don't think that Carmack is suddenly of the bandwagon because his 20ms treshold can't be met. We're talking about the first big step in VR, latency is definitely going to be improved on from here on out. It might have been too much work (and cost to much money) to make a polished official version for the rift...I think that the bigger screen that the final developer kit has also caused some more work.
CambriaRising
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(03-17-2013, 05:25 AM)
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PREORDER CANCE- Oh.
knighthonor
Junior Member
(03-17-2013, 05:27 AM)
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What's the controls like for this thing?
jacksepticeye
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(03-17-2013, 05:28 AM)
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I reeeaaally want this thing to be good and do well. I think it could be a really really cool device for gamers and really drive immersion like nothing else.
But if those latency problems are there at launch then it will be very annoying to use.

Originally Posted by knighthonor

What's the controls like for this thing?

What do you mean? You still use a gamepad or mouse and keyboard. This just tracks head movement and gives you a 110 degree FOV and 3D. It doesn't have any controls
YuShtink
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(03-17-2013, 05:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by knighthonor

What's the controls like for this thing?

Whatever PC input device you care to implement.
Unknown Soldier
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(03-17-2013, 05:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by Fried Food

Head tracking is the main feature of this thing :|

I was under the impression the main feature was the immersive 160 degrees or whatever FoV, giving you a true VR experience. I wouldn't even care if there wasn't head tracking, I just want the visual field this thing gives me.
YuShtink
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(03-17-2013, 05:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by jacksepticeye

I reeeaaally want this thing to be good and do well. I think it could be a really really cool device for gamers and really drive immersion like nothing else.
But if those latency problems are there at launch then it will be very annoying to use.

I think you guys are overblowing this latency "issue." First of all, we have no real evidence whatsoever that Doom 3's delay has anything to do with Carmack's latency threshold. I've heard different numbers from different people regarding the Rift's current latency. I'm hearing 50-60ms but I've also read that the old prototype was clocking in around 38ms and that was before the improved 1000hz tracker was developed.

Either way, everyone who has tried the rift agrees it is at the very least compelling and at most a religious experience. The current rate is a fine jumping off point, the Rift is still far and away the most responsive consumer VR device ever made. It's current latency is one of it's MAJOR selling points! He was just pointing out that improvments can and should be made for the consumer version and going forward in VR in general.
Zukuu
Banned
(03-17-2013, 05:44 AM)
I'm very excited for the near future, when this kind of VR is implemented into the mainstream game market. Just imagine this combined with move for PS4 / PS5. When games split "cross hair" from "camera". You look left and right with your head without pointing the center of your gun / sword in that direction as well.

2F is perfectly acceptable for a non-competitive environment.
Tain
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(03-17-2013, 05:48 AM)
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Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

I was under the impression the main feature was the immersive 160 degrees or whatever FoV, giving you a true VR experience. I wouldn't even care if there wasn't head tracking, I just want the visual field this thing gives me.

Yeah, I've always been significantly more excited about the clean, high-FOV 3D than the head tracking. I'm sure the head tracking is awesome in combination, but 30ms delay for head tracking doesn't seem like a dealbreaker to me when the actual implementations of head tracking in 99% of the games that support it will be pretty secondary. As in, you won't see many games built around it and requiring it any time soon.
TheExodu5
(03-17-2013, 05:48 AM)
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Carmack is not specifically attacking the Rift. He's just saying that latency is a challenge that will have to be overcome to achieve true to life VR in the future. What we have now with the Rift is good, but there are still artifacts that results from the latency. It's not a simple challenge to overcome, and it's going to take many iterations, for both software and hardware, to get it right.

Software is going to be the biggest challenge. They'll get the hardware to really low latency in time. With software, it's not as simple, because it's dependent on the individual developers making it a focus in their games. Sadly, a lot of developers just don't have the expertise to fix these issues or even the ability to perceive them in the first place. I just look at the countless games on PC and console that have such horrid input lag. I complain about input lag not because of what it says in my tag, but because so many games get it so wrong. It's quite frustrating.
Last edited by TheExodu5; 03-17-2013 at 05:52 AM.
James-Ape
show some balls, man
(03-17-2013, 05:50 AM)

we’ve been informed that DOOM 3 BFG Edition will not support the Rift development kit by the time we begin shipping

that suggest to me that it will be happening, just not on release as they initially expected.
Blizzard
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(03-17-2013, 07:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheExodu5

Carmack is not specifically attacking the Rift. He's just saying that latency is a challenge that will have to be overcome to achieve true to life VR in the future. What we have now with the Rift is good, but there are still artifacts that results from the latency. It's not a simple challenge to overcome, and it's going to take many iterations, for both software and hardware, to get it right.

Software is going to be the biggest challenge. They'll get the hardware to really low latency in time. With software, it's not as simple, because it's dependent on the individual developers making it a focus in their games. Sadly, a lot of developers just don't have the expertise to fix these issues or even the ability to perceive them in the first place. I just look at the countless games on PC and console that have such horrid input lag. I complain about input lag not because of what it says in my tag, but because so many games get it so wrong. It's quite frustrating.

I've worked with low latency video encoding in the past, which is not the same situation, but I can understand that it's super difficult to work all the way through to a PC without adding latency along the way. I would expect Doom support eventually, and it just wasn't ready yet, but it is concerning because I guess I felt like low-latency head tracking was one of the absolute most important features about the device, since it is the aspect that would help fool your brain into feeling as though you were looking around a virtual world. I didn't realize Carmack had expressed concerns about the existing latency on the Rift.

Also, where do you go to update the reward information? After a delay, I got the email once I went to the /sales link as the instructions say, but the second email just links me to the order info page and I do not see anything about the reward options.

*edit* Quote from Carmack back in January:

Originally Posted by Twitter

The new Oculus head tracking sensor is the fastest responding sensor I have tested, and at 1khz updates, it is smooth without interpolation.

Were his concerns about latency before or after that point in time?
Last edited by Blizzard; 03-17-2013 at 07:05 AM.
TheExodu5
(03-17-2013, 07:23 AM)
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Realize that he's not just talking about hardware latency. He's talking about rendering latency as well. His concerns aren't specifically with the Rift. They're not even really concerns. He's just saying that latency needs to be a big focus for VR. His stance is the same as it was during his keynote speach at QuakeCon. Carmack realizes that this is a first iteration and that latency is a big focus for Oculus.

We don't know what the delay is about either. For all we know, Carmack is having issues reducing the rendering latency in Doom.

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