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Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer

Dacon

Banned
I'm not speaking to the author's intent. I'm speaking to how most women would interpret this. Most women would look at art of the sorceress, and see it as the statement, "Big boobs are what's desirable in women."

I don't know if that's how the artist feels. But it's what most women would probably think looking at the art. And the more they see messages like this, the more it weighs on them. Hence why so many girls get implants now.

You should stop assuming to know how "most women" feel about things, and why they do the things they do.

You don't. I doubt anyone does possess such knowledge and broad and overt generalizations do nothing to get your point across.


You should also probably make some effort to actually validate the statement that these things "send the message". How do they send these messages? What in particular reduces the image of this character and condenses it into some subliminal message that demeans any just about woman that comes in contact with it?

Honestly if someone sees an attractive woman and her sexual characteristics are some how emphasized in any way and that person automatically sees that woman as just a pair of breasts or an ass, then that seems to be a personal fault on behalf of that person in particular, and they shouldn't assume that everyone else is feeling the same. One would expect that any rational mind would figure that people liking these things and presenting them in media doesn't automatically mean that everyone expects everyone to share the same qualities as that thing. It's kind of an impossible thing.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
There's nothing wrong with the Sorceress' design, but it obviously makes some people uncomfortable. That said, I'm glad that Vanillaware doesn't care who is uncomfortable with it.

Lots of things make people uncomfortable, some are warranted and some aren't.

Anyway, I was really hoping from the first five posts this thread would not devolve into an entire discussion on mysogyny in games. Yes, it's a problem. Yes, discussion should take place. I don't think it needs to saturate every thread.
 
Muggaz, I agree with your point in principle, but this is more of a niche title with established sexualized tropes (Odin Sphere -> Muramasa -> Dragon's Crown) than a mainstream title with lots of exposure. Stuff like Lollipop Chainsaw is more applicable and a high-value target for your sentiments regarding current games culture (which I am completely in agreement with) than this one, I think.

Choose your battles, if you know what I am saying. :)



Exactly.

How is Lollipop Chainsaw considered more mainstream than Dragon's Crown?

I think the no female soldiers in moderm military shooters, the AAA industry's aversion to female leads and how professional women are treated within the gaming industry are the more worthwhile targets.
In my opinion, if women want to confront the issue of sexualization it should be from the angle of demanding men be held to the same standard.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
EDIT: Haly, I think this entire post of mine should clarify my position in regards to this thread.

I agree, which is why I want everyone knocking Kamitani's art to go find a more worthwhile target that might actually make a difference, rather than slander a talented man's obscure work.

Here, I'll do it for you:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=536937

That's the Injustice thread, and Wonder Woman is wearing her usual scandalous clothing. This is a much more mainstream game and is also deeply connected to the actually frequently sexist superhero comics industry (if for no other reason than their using porn stars as models for female poses). You can take down two birds with one stone!

Go and be outraged, thank you very much.
 

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
EDIT: Haly, I think this entire post of mine should clarify my position in regards to this thread.
You should re-bold the blog post to omit the whole 'search for blame in the author thing' - it was the weakest part anyway.

I know it skewed what I thought your stance was. ;-)
 

Gbraga

Member
ayfual.gif

Nice! I heard Muramasa also had a good combat system, is it as good as this seems?

Also, 9 pages to get a combo gif, that's sad :(

It's all about them titteys, nobody cares about the combat :(
 

Cornbread78

Member
So she has big blossoming bossom, so should we be embarrassed about them? See video game history, hell LULU had some primed headlights back in the day. Seriously, over sensationalized irrational responses. They're boobs dammit..... deal with them, or go play some games out there with bare chested men and enjoy.. Sex sells, welcome to the word we live in.... I wouldn't want woman walking around in baggy jump suits everywhere they go. I mean, I see more T&A walking into my local Wal-Mart than is shown in the trailer.

Besides, it looked like they were made with pretty good physics for the art style...
 
There's nothing wrong with the Sorceress' design, but it obviously makes some people uncomfortable. That said, I'm glad that Vanillaware doesn't care who is uncomfortable with it.

Lots of things make people uncomfortable, some are warranted and some aren't.

Anyway, I was really hoping from the first five posts this thread would not devolve into an entire discussion on mysogyny in games. Yes, it's a problem. Yes, discussion should take place. I don't think it needs to saturate every thread.
Well, complaining about the Sorceress has kept the thread bumped, at least. :)
 

Lime

Member
You should re-bold the blog post to omit the whole 'search for blame in the author thing' - it was the weakest part anyway.

I know it skewed what I thought your stance was. ;-)

I see your point. I assumed people read the article, as the bolded part referred to instances where e.g. cosplayers or the character itself are targeted as being sexist or reproducing sexist ideals.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Well, complaining about the Sorceress has kept the thread bumped, at least. :)

Yeah, the Sorceress actually looks much more interesting gameplay wise than I had anticipated. Strict magic users are generally boring to me in most games, but she appears to have a great deal of mobility and a lot of options in this game.
 

Hero

Member
I think it is hilarious someone in this thread tried to use Dead or Alive as an example of how Dragon's Crown's character designs is sexist.

A game with female characters all with different body types versus a game filled with female characters that have the same body. Come on.
 

Neiteio

Member
Not everyone has "tits". At least, I've never gone up to a guy (or had one come up to me) and say "nice tits" or "show me your tits". What's your experience with this? ;-)
LOL, I think of all nipples as tits. Male, female, busty, flat. All tits to me! :)

Neiteio, you keep saying that the sorceress alone is the only one designed with a sexual taste in mind, but you fail to understand that not everyone finds overly massive breasts to be attractive. Why aren't the other women seen as sexual to you? One is almost naked, why wouldn't you focus on her?
Of course not everyone finds massive breasts attractive, but the message society constantly sends women is that women are desirable according to the size of their breasts.

Neiteio, you and Lime and some others are incapable of grasping this one point:

Kamitani is an arftist who specializes in female sex traits.

Your criticisms against Dragon's Crown or any of his games are no more valid than if you had levied the same arguments against the European masters who did the same thing in their art. Actually less so, because those paintings and sculptures of women are literally "this what we think our ideal women should look like" and their legacy defined Western aesthetics for generations.

By contrast, Kamitani is a fringe fantasy artist that eschews realism for deformation and style. You shouldn't be able to look at any of his works and think "wow he's really objectifying women" because they're so fantastic and far removed from reality.

That's where the appeal of his art comes from.

All your criticisms just come off as prudish, knee-jerk reactions.

OMG BIG TITS, MUST BE SEXIST.
I'm not saying it's sexist in intent. For all I know, Kamitani might have nothing but the most profound respect for women. All I'm saying is, I feel for women who are affected negatively by the glorification of a trait few of them have, both in this depiction and others. It's something they're constantly bombarded with, leading to plastic surgery and implants in a surprisingly number of girls I've known (many of which are hot by most standards to begin with, but still had crippling self-esteem due to messages).
 

DarkKyo

Member
LOL, I think of all nipples as tits. Male, female, busty, flat. All tits to me! :)

I can't believe we're listening to opinions on sexism from someone with this message. I'm all for breasts of all sizes as well but why would you emphasize a love for breasts yet chastise others for their interest in breasts in the same damn thread? Is your argument a case of self loathing or something? If that's what you focus on when you think of women...
 

7Th

Member
I'm not saying it's sexist in intent. For all I know, Kamitani might have nothing but the most profound respect for women. All I'm saying is, I feel for women who are affected negatively by the glorification of a trait few of them have, both in this depiction and others. It's something they're constantly bombarded with, leading to plastic surgery and implants in a surprisingly number of girls I've known (many of which are hot by most standards to begin with, but still had crippling self-esteem due to messages).

But this is a niche game for male nerds that not many people will play.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I'm not saying it's sexist in intent. For all I know, Kamitani might have nothing but the most profound respect for women. All I'm saying is, I feel for women who are affected negatively by the glorification of a trait few of them have, both in this depiction and others. It's something they're constantly bombarded with, leading to plastic surgery and implants in a surprisingly number of girls I've known (many of which are hot by most standards to begin with, but still had crippling self-esteem due to messages).

Valid argument, but wrong place to bring it up. By making this argument here, you're implicitly saying Kamitani's work is a problem.
 

NEO0MJ

Member
Godlike

I wonder how will the boy wizard will differ from her

Supposedly he's supposed to be a heavy hitter with long spell casting time. I'm having a hard time imagining him having an awesome trailer but they made the sorceress cool even though she's supposed to be the support unit.
 

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
I see your point. I assumed people read the article, as the bolded part referred to instances where e.g. cosplayers or the character itself are targeted as being sexist or reproducing sexist ideals.
Cool. I just figured that was your general takeaway from the whole thing, which I don't completely agree with (especially in this specific case). I found the sex and 'in-universe justification' and agency thing to be a really flimsy point that didn't support the really blame-y conclusions in L1 and L2.
 

Takao

Banned
The complaints about the character design in this game feel a bit unwarranted. It's all over the top and crazy, but it seems to be fairly equal in its character designs between sexes:

Wizard & Elf: Not particularly unattractive, but not trying to be attractive. They're pretty much the plain John/Jane of the group.

Amazon & Dwarf: Over the top muscle definition everywhere.

Fighter & Sorceress: Bishonen, and Bishoujo with one aspect of their design blown up to near comical proportions. The Fighter's shoulders are as out of proportion as the Sorceress' breasts.
 

Neiteio

Member
I can't believe we're listening to opinions on sexism from someone with this message. I'm all for breasts of all sizes as well but why would you emphasize a love for breasts yet chastise others for their interest in breasts in the same damn thread? Is your argument a case of self loathing or something? If that's what you focus on when you think of women...
Eh? I was just saying the word "tits," as used in my avatar, refers to all nipples in all mankind, male and female. It wasn't stating a preference or anything of the sort. It's just a funny word to me.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Wizard & Elf: Not particularly unattractive, but not trying to be attractive. They're pretty much the plain John/Jane of the group.

Lies, Archer and Wizard are my waifu and husbando, respectively.
 

OSHAN

Member
Fighter & Sorceress: Bishonen, and Bishoujo with one aspect of their design blown up to near comical proportions. The Fighter's shoulders are as out of proportion as the Sorceress' breasts.

He's tall, too.

I've seen research that states tall, broad shouldered men with big dicks turn on women.
 

NEO0MJ

Member
He's tall, too.

I've seen research that states tall, broad shouldered men with big dicks turn on women.

He's missing the last part of the equation, though. Some of the males in this game seem to have no crotch, such as the dwarf.
 

Mugaaz

Member
Again, I think you're on the right track (dislike due to taste, theme) but you take it too far. Sex, sexuality, anatomy - you're automatically attributing negative connotations that may not be there. You also don't need that to justify why you don't like it.

I agree, but if I don't I feel like people have no idea where my view is coming from. I don't really think about it as deeply as I am trying to articulate here. The idea is more along the lines of consistency, believability, etc. I like to come back to the armor example in video games. Guy goes from 5 armor Tshirt and shorts, 20 armor leather shirt and pants, 35 armor chainmail jumpsuit and coif, 50 armor full plate with gloves and closed visor. There is some internal logic of protecting body from injury by covering it with a hard layer of defense. Then the woman's final armor set is 7 inch Stilleto heels, one sock, thong, nipple shields, and two belts. What is this? What is my brain supposed to do with that? Obviously, this doesn't fit into normal logic, in game logic, the idea behind armor, or anything. I guess this is intended purely to be sexual. Why? There is no gameplay reason for this, it doesn't make the game better in anyway. I guess it must be for purely marketing reasons? I guess they think this will cause me to be more likely to buy their game? This is what they think of me? That's pretty insulting.

I think I've said all I have to say on this subject now. I'm not going to continue reiterating same point over and over. I feel like this game looks awesome, and I think it would be ever more awesome if they didn't sell it with the sorceress trailer. I'm probably going to buy it, short of hearing the actual gameplay is terrible.
 

NEO0MJ

Member
I just noticed something funny about the sorceress idle stance in that she looks at the player and then shakes her jugs.

tumblr_mk0quyiMsR1r8ououo1_250.gif


Pretty funny.
 
I agree, but if I don't I feel like people have no idea where my view is coming from. I don't really think about it as deeply as I am trying to articulate here. The idea is more along the lines of consistency, believability, etc. I like to come back to the armor example in video games. Guy goes from 5 armor Tshirt and shorts, 20 armor leather shirt and pants, 35 armor chainmail jumpsuit and coif, 50 armor full plate with gloves and closed visor. There is some internal logic of protecting body from injury by covering it with a hard layer of defense. Then the woman's final armor set is 7 inch Stilleto heels, one sock, thong, nipple shields, and two belts. What is this? What is my brain supposed to do with that? Obviously, this doesn't fit into normal logic, in game logic, the idea behind armor, or anything. I guess this is intended purely to be sexual. Why? There is no gameplay reason for this, it doesn't make the game better in anyway. I guess it must be for purely marketing reasons? I guess they think this will cause me to be more likely to buy their game? This is what they think of me? That's pretty insulting.

If the world you're describing is as over the top as Dragon's Crown than the problem in that scenario is the guys are not dressed consistantly with the world. Why do developers feel the need to cover up their male characters?
 
I just noticed something funny about the sorceress idle stance in that she looks at the player and then shakes her jugs.

tumblr_mk0quyiMsR1r8ououo1_250.gif


Pretty funny.

GOTY. She also winks twice.

I am in favor of art or "art" being offensive or "offensive", depends on the beholder I guess. Barriers should break, shores should be explored.

That said though, I am not easily offended, so I do see this topic as the carnival of sexless today.
 
Id understand the complaints if every woman in the game looked like her. There is just 1, and the other two women look totally different. To me, it looks like they were trying to go extreme in all directions. Overly-muscled, overly-sexualized, overly-miniature.
 
Of understand the complaints if every woman in the game looked like her. There is just 1, and the other two women look totally different. To me, it looks like they were trying to go extreme in all directions. Overly-muscled, overly-sexualized, overly-miniature.

I don't get it...I don't even like big boobs but think she looks like she's a lot of fun to play. I like this a lot better than the knight. Can't wait to see more. The girlfriend also thought that her game play looks fun.
 
I don't get it...I don't even like big boobs but think she looks like she's a lot of fun to play. I like this a lot better than the knight. Can't wait to see more. The girlfriend also thought that her game play looks fun.

didn't you get the memo? sexy girls are evil and you hate women for wanting this game.
 

GraveRobberX

Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Damn this thread blew up since last night lol

Same people coming and complaining, what is the 4th thread to do this regarding with Dragon's Crown

OMG the BEWBS ARE HUGE LIEK XBOX!, *complain, complain complain*, yet no one ever goes into other gaming threads and goes yo Princess Peach needs to get her cup check upped a size, don't feel her itty bitties

Give it a fucking rest, if you feel ashamed don't buy, move the fuck on
Some of you are so puritanical in your posts, I still can't believe you live such a social dynamic bubble that a Video Game Character Boobs makes you ashamed and people around you feel shame for seeing you playing something of that nature... WTF?

I sweat to god if any of you come and try to derail Amazon reveal trailer, I will RAGE so fucking hard and eat a ban if I have too

Don't you fucking mess with my Amazon, those Thighs are mine to be admired, loved and to be played with

Seriously every fucking game is now get fucking dissected for the wrong reasons
If it doesn't float your boat, move the fuck on!
Maybe out there in the gaming industry is a game that has Vanillaware's art style without the sexual undertones, and hopefully you enjoy it

Everyone knows what Dragon's Crown is by now, if any of you show up in others threads created for it, I'm going to call you out in it, cause by then your just fucking trolls
 

Labadal

Member
Do people really find it strange that some people don't like her design? I don't like it, but I'll still play as her if she is the most fun to use.

I know that everything and everyone are exaggerated in this game, this goes for the amazon's uber hips to the dwarf and his muscles or the fighter and his broad shoulders.

I can't deny that I like big boobs, it's just looks comical to me when I see her in motion. I'm not as much offended as I think it looks ridicilous with them bouncing all over the place.
 

Sgblues

Member
Would be sick if she could do tag spells with the wizard or even a full team spell like final strike like from D&D Shadows of Mystara
 

Labadal

Member
Damn this thread blew up since last night lol

Same people coming and complaining, what is the 4th thread to do this regarding with Dragon's Crown

OMG the BEWBS ARE HUGE LIEK XBOX!, *complain, complain complain*, yet no one ever goes into other gaming threads and goes yo Princess Peach needs to get her cup check upped a size, don't feel her itty bitties

Give it a fucking rest, if you feel ashamed don't buy, move the fuck on
Some of you are so puritanical in your posts, I still can't believe you live such a social dynamic bubble that a Video Game Character Boobs makes you ashamed and people around you feel shame for seeing you playing something of that nature... WTF?

I sweat to god if any of you come and try to derail Amazon reveal trailer, I will RAGE so fucking hard and eat a ban if I have too

Don't you fucking mess with my Amazon, those Thighs are mine to be admired, loved and to be played with

Seriously every fucking game is now get fucking dissected for the wrong reasons
If it doesn't float your boat, move the fuck on!
Maybe out there in the gaming industry is a game that has Vanillaware's art style without the sexual undertones, and hopefully you enjoy it

Everyone knows what Dragon's Crown is by now, if any of you show up in others threads created for it, I'm going to call you out in it, cause by then your just fucking trolls

I'd just like to say that you'll keep your dirty fingers to yourself or I'll have the Amazon chop off your head.
 
GOTY. She also winks twice.

I am in favor of art or "art" being offensive or "offensive", depends on the beholder I guess. Barriers should break, shores should be explored.

That said though, I am not easily offended, so I do see this topic as the carnival of sexless today.

shes blinking.
 

Sgblues

Member
You almost made me tear up there. Fantastic idea. How did those work in D&D:SM?


Well you needed 3-4 people playing, then have at least a total of two million experience points(fighting the red dragon in the cave of Rafael the immortal would put you over that) and most importantly someone has to be playing the Magic user with the staff of wizardary equipped. The Staff will glow, and you are ready to perform it. To do the spell, everyone else besides the Magic-user would hit and hold their ABC buttons(which were Attack, Jump and Item selection)down first. The M.User with the Staff of Wizardry would then hit their ABC buttons too, the spell would kill everything in the game except the last boss in one hit(would remain with like one more hit to kill), it was a great way to kill off the last boss in style when you had the people to do so.

So I'm hoping some aspects of that make it into this game.
 
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