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Messofanego
Member
(07-15-2013, 03:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by Ultra Magnus

http://youtu.be/1V_ckkZ_HbQ

I know it's late but just watched it today

I could only get through 6 min of that. What a joke, that "shots fired" stuff was not only obnoxious but also hilarious as hell.
MaximusNeo701
Member
(07-15-2013, 08:17 AM)
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The article also fails to point out that most dev's went to college have a 4 year degree and have also been in the industry 5-10 years when hitting 80k salary; at least where I am located. Game dev's are notorious for lots of over time to meet deadlines.

Since when is it absurd that a developer makes that anyways; one could argue it is software engineering or a science that has highly technical skills and creates something. About half of the developers I have worked with are some of the smartest people I know, it all areas not just development. Though a lot of "programmers" aren't really there, there is a big difference between a programmer and a developer.

Also as much as I think police officers are under payed those are the ones who didn't have to invest as much time into obtaining a technical degree and also continue to learn new technologies and is a horrible comparison. The teacher one is fairly more comparable but I think everyone can agree our schools are a mess.

Originally Posted by ZealousD

Outsourcing isn't as popular as it used to be. Employers are discovering that there are all sorts of hidden costs and drawbacks to the practice that end up hurting in the long run. In other words, hiring locally is actually cheaper and better.

Outsourcing is fairly common in the industry for art assets, but not programmers.

Very true, some of my peers work places where they have basically marked all of their old products legacy that were outsourced in the past and are doing a full rewrite with developers here. One very large company that makes a lot of money printing cards had outsourced almost all of their software for many years. One of their current devs is in charge of basically just designing all new versions from the ground up; the business guys at the top wanted them to take the existing code and reuse it but after much debate she explained that it was so bad it would take longer to dissect it figure out what's going on update it and build tests instead of just start from scratch. Many companies that have outsourced in the past are suffering from this now.
Last edited by MaximusNeo701; 07-15-2013 at 08:22 AM.
Halvie
Member
(07-15-2013, 08:30 AM)
fuck off to anyone thinking they make too much
Xander756
Banned
(07-16-2013, 08:51 AM)
Hey guys here is a follow up article: http://realgamernewz.com/14053/devel...n-the-industry

I also appeared on the HipHopGamer Show yesterday to talk about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V_ckkZ_HbQ
Marty Chinn
Member
(07-16-2013, 09:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by Xander756

Hey guys here is a follow up article: http://realgamernewz.com/14053/devel...n-the-industry

I also appeared on the HipHopGamer Show yesterday to talk about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V_ckkZ_HbQ

Oh boy, you're here. Look, the problem that people have with you is not that you're trying to call out the industry on it's issues; there are plenty of people here who do that and there's a reasonable discussion about it. The problem is how you construct your argument by taking facts from all over the place, and try to connect them together to try and fit your argument. You selectively pick some facts while ignoring others and you end up with a scatterbrain argument that doesn't fit logic or reality.

Heck your whole follow up article is a perfect example of how you selectively pick out some things to fit your argument while ignoring the points that point the flaws in it. Heck, your thesis for your argument isn't even accurate. You claim developers make too much which groups all developers together and now you're trying to argue the minority on the high end of the pay grade are the problem. You can't call out developers as a whole and then cry fowl that you meant just the executives. If you want to form a better argument, then your article should be titled "Game executives make too much" and then maybe some people might take you a bit more seriously.

Your problem is you can't formulate a logical argument that holds water that people can get behind. You're misguided to think that game developers are attacking you because they're trying to defend the industry. That's not why they're attacking you.

PS, you keep ignoring the following facts in the chart below when you complain about game developers make too much:

Last edited by Marty Chinn; 07-16-2013 at 09:10 AM.
Valnen
Member
(07-16-2013, 09:09 AM)
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I'd argue that it isn't enough for the abuse they get put through combined with the lack of any real job security.
Tidus_Great
Member
(07-16-2013, 09:14 AM)
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you have to be pretty smart and do alot of school to get the job so I think they deserve the pay.
jimi_dini
Member
(07-16-2013, 09:15 AM)
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Originally Posted by PG2G

I have always been under the impression that game developers get paid less and work longer hours than most other software developers. That is the entire reason I decided I didn't want to do it when I started school

But on the other side, there is no real risk involved. I mean when they include plenty of bugs in the worst case the sales won't be as good as they could be. In other cases, it won't really matter. They can patch it yada yada.

If I on the other hand do shitty work, there could be real consequences to at least one actual human being. That's why it's important that people in jobs like mine get enough sleep and don't do much overtime work.
michaelius
Member
(07-16-2013, 09:16 AM)
Everyone seems to be offended by it but think for a moment

Sniper Ghost Warrior costed less than 1 milion Euro to develop
Witcher 3 will have a budget of 15 milions USD and it's most expensive Witcher game made

so the game development costs could be much lower if companies moved to Eastern Europe or Asia
JDSN
You must walk home naked, dragging behind you the Stone of Shame.
(07-16-2013, 09:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by michaelius

Everyone seems to be offended by it but think for a moment

Sniper Ghost Warrior costed less than 1 milion Euro to develop
Witcher 3 will have a budget of 15 milions USD and it's most expensive Witcher game made

so the game development costs could be much lower if companies moved to Eastern Europe or Asia

"Cost of living", meet mixhaelius.
Gorillaz
sober as a drunk judge
(07-16-2013, 09:20 AM)
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if that story about how shitty Rockstar's development was for RDR and everything else is true then maybe some dev's are still not making enough to be considered "too much"


don't know if that even made sense what I just wrote....meh
Halvie
Member
(07-16-2013, 09:24 AM)

Originally Posted by Sullen

All this does is remind me how little we pay the important working members of our society. I don't think really think it is wrong that a game dev makes 81k a year, but it is ridiculous how much more that is than what a police officer is making for a job that is much, much easier.

Edit: also kinda shocking how many people say 80k isn't that much. Pretty much every grown ass working professional I know in my life would practically kill to make that much.

what? when did the coders jobs become easy?
Artorias
Banned
(07-16-2013, 09:31 AM)
Holy shit at this guy. It's not his fucking business what kind of car a developer drives, and trying to call 80k a year exorbitant is fucking obnoxious.

I absolutely agree that teachers should be paid more, but how on earth can you follow that up by pointing at people making 80k? I mean really, THOSE are the people that are overpaid in the US?
Mael
Member
(07-16-2013, 09:34 AM)
Let's be fair though, if the alternative to dev getting less pay is the customers having to get rid of their consumer's rights well I can tell which one I'd chose...
Although I'm not saying that's the only choice we have.
kurbaan
Banned
(07-16-2013, 09:36 AM)

Originally Posted by Marty Chinn


This table is either VERY old or just plain wrong. Almost all those companies start at 90-100K+ now for new grads.

And I disagree with that dude's article but it's pretty messed up if he got fired to please the publishers/developers. Shows how much the media will bend over.
Marty Chinn
Member
(07-16-2013, 09:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by kurbaan

This table is either VERY old or just plain wrong. Almost all those companies start at 90-100K+ now for new grads.

Ya, it's a couple years old. I did a quick search and that came up first.

And I disagree with that dude's article but it's pretty messed up if he got fired to please the publishers/developers. Shows how much the media will bend over.

The problem is I don't find him credible. He clearly selectively picks information to fit his narrative so I can't trust that this is the exact reason he got fired.

I'm more inclined to believe he got fired because a lot of people called him on his shit and he still ignored it and it just made the site look bad to have such a poorly formed argument that selectively pieced together facts. He probably took that as the industry wanted him fired.
Last edited by Marty Chinn; 07-16-2013 at 09:58 AM.
Xander756
Banned
(07-16-2013, 04:09 PM)
Here is the email explaining the reason for the firing was complaints from major developers and publishers which they did not want to jeopardize their relationships with other writers on the site

http://penguinrungames.com/images/firing.png
PairOfFilthySocks
Banned
(07-16-2013, 04:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Xander756

Hey guys here is a follow up article: http://realgamernewz.com/14053/devel...n-the-industry

I also appeared on the HipHopGamer Show yesterday to talk about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V_ckkZ_HbQ

You're completely fucking clueless and you're basing your daft statement on a single developer whose position you don't even seem to know. No I will not read any more of your shitty, reaction-seeking bullshit to give you hits.
chickdigger802
Banned
(07-16-2013, 04:29 PM)
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I just love how 70k sports car is made out to be a huge deal.

It should be easily affordable after working as a programmer/developer within 10 years if a nice car is important to ya over a house or w/e.
MotherFan
Member
(07-16-2013, 04:40 PM)
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I don't think developers are making too much money when we see how many of them leave the industry altogether. Honestly, they are overworked and get burnt out.
quickwhips
Member
(07-16-2013, 04:54 PM)
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So developers who work long hours to meet deadlines and without pay sometimes should be payed less but million dollar paychecks for executives is ok...bullshit.
Mugaaz
Member
(07-16-2013, 05:36 PM)
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This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. The idea that labor is payed due to social need or importance is just provably false. All jobs are payed at least the minimum needed to attract sufficient talent to make the enterprise financially successful (or accomplish its goal), and possibly more if they have goals beyond financial success.

There are just fewer people out who have the skills to be a software developer, than there are to be a teacher. I don't see how that fact is degrading to anybody. If unskilled labor could develop games, then people would hired unskilled employees to do it.

The amount of training and skill needed to perform a job skillfully is *usually* a good metric for determining it's compensation. Not to compensate the employee for that investment, but because that investment by definition means fewer people will qualify, and the pool of applicants will be much smaller. There's simply more people out there that meet qualification to be a police officer than there are to be a top tier game developer.

Finally, the cost of games is such a fucking stupid thing to argue about. This is entertainment, its not needed. There is a simple solution to it being overly expensive - don't buy it. If it gets to expensive they will drive themselves out of business. People's ability or inability to buy games does not have a meaningful impact on their survival or health, and other forms of entertainment can be easily substituted. I'm not entitled to be able to buy games at $xx.99, no matter how much a community deludes itself into believing so. The only thing they're entitled to do is not buy it and put the company out of business by doing so.
cpp_is_king
Member
(07-16-2013, 05:52 PM)
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This guy is such a tool. I do think he deserved to be fired, but he was aparently fired for the wrong reasons. He *should* have been fired for writing an article that demonstrated that he had no idea how life, or the world worked. I mean he basically proposed that we go full Marxist. Or something...

I mean the guy uses a few particularly successful and rich developers and then somehow concludes that "most developers" are like that while in the same breath citing the reference that they make, on average, $81,000 / year. How incompetent do you have to be think that $80k is "too much money". Half of these developers probably live on the West Coast, where $80k *might* get you something in a housing project. But even if you live in a cheap part of the country, $80k puts you soundly in the lower middle class. Not even the upper middle class. You certainly cannot afford a $68,000 car on an $80k salary.

I don't even know what this guy wants. Should we should pay all these game developers $50k? Good luck with that, when all the engineers can just jump shimp and head over to Google / Facebook for more than triple that (literally), and then where's your industry now, Einstein?

Software engineer salaries are high because software engineering as a whole requires a tremendous amount of education and skill and they are the foundation of the entire technology boom of the past 15 years. To suggest that they should be making $50k or whatever this guy wants them to make just because he doesn't like games to be expensive is not only a slap in the face to years of education and training they've put into perfecting their craft, but it also demonstrates such a fundamental misunderstanding of how business and society in general works that I wonder if this guy has a legitimate neuropsychological condition that prevents his brain from functioning correctly.
Last edited by cpp_is_king; 07-16-2013 at 05:57 PM.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
But not of thinking first
(07-16-2013, 05:58 PM)
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The article is stupid but one thing i will say is this. Its funny how game development works its ass to follow the budget model of hollywood when 90% of a films crew are not employees but freelancers, that can go months and months between jobs with no pay.

Game developers have it somewhat cushy in comparison.
Last edited by ThoughtsOfSpeaking; 07-16-2013 at 06:01 PM.
SmokyDave
His head smashed in and his heart cut out and his liver removed and his bowels unplugged and his nostrils raped and his bottom burned off and his penis...
(07-16-2013, 06:01 PM)
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Why are developers making so much money? Their job isn't life threatening like a police officer's is and it's not important to the future of the nation like a teacher's job is.

Let's hope this dude never finds out how much professional sportsmen earn.
soulassssns
Member
(07-16-2013, 06:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by androvsky

Why isn't he comparing game developers to other computer programming jobs?


Exactly what I was thinking
Xander756
Banned
(07-16-2013, 06:03 PM)
The phrase "most developers" does not appear in the article. Why did you put it in quotes? You realize this article is criticizing the top earners, not the underlying majority? I recommended you re-read the article, and the subsequent follow up here: http://realgamernewz.com/14053/devel...n-the-industry

Poor reading comprehension skills does not mean the author of the article is an idiot. Keep in mind the vast majority of people agreed and liked this article so if you think I'm stupid, you're in the minority.

There are just fewer people out who have the skills to be a software developer, than there are to be a teacher.

Wouldn't that logic also dictate there are fewer people out there with the skills to be a CIA Agent? Yet the average CIA salary is lower.

Finally, the cost of games is such a fucking stupid thing to argue about. This is entertainment, its not needed. There is a simple solution to it being overly expensive - don't buy it. If it gets to expensive they will drive themselves out of business.

Well, they ARE driving themselves out of business. The gaming industry is currently collapsing. Google it if you don't believe me. I don't want this to happen. Do you? Better to point out the reason why it's crumbling before it's gone than after.
Xander756
Banned
(07-16-2013, 06:04 PM)


Originally Posted by androvsky

Why isn't he comparing game developers to other computer programming jobs?


Exactly what I was thinking

I did. Here you go: http://penguinrungames.com/images/averages.png

Averages are higher for gaming industry jobs than comparable non-industry jobs.
RPGCrazied
Member
(07-16-2013, 06:06 PM)
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I'd believe it for when they say they need $100 million to break even. Yeah, no, someone is getting paid way to much.
Marty Chinn
Member
(07-16-2013, 06:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Xander756

I did. Here you go: http://penguinrungames.com/images/averages.png

Averages are higher for gaming industry jobs than comparable non-industry jobs.

Did you just completely miss the nice easy to read chart I posted that is 2 years outdated and has gone up even higher? See this is your problem. You selectively reply to things that fit your narrative and then you ignore the stuff that doesn't. That is why you don't have credibility.

You argue that you never said most developers and yet you said:

In addition to a high salary, the majority of game developers also receive a myriad of fringe benefits including stock options, annual bonuses, project bonuses, royalties for games they have worked on, medical benefits, dental coverage, and even pension plans.

Every time you say developers, which is at least six times, you're grouping all developers as whole and not once do you sit there and specify you're talking about the executives. You keep crying foul that people can't comprehend your article but the problem lies on you who cannot properly convey who you're targeting.
Xander756
Banned
(07-16-2013, 06:21 PM)
Um it clearly says as of June 30, 2013. 2 years outdated...? Wat?

Every time you say developers, which is at least six times, you're grouping all developers as whole and not once do you sit there and specify you're talking about the executives. You keep crying foul that people can't comprehend your article but the problem lies on you who cannot properly convey who you're targeting.

The article is about people making six figure salaries. It says so right in the article. Not my fault if you didn't understand that.

Again, keep in mind you're in the minority. If a majority of people understood it fine, then ti is obviously not the fault of the writer or the writing when some people don't. It's on their shoulders.
Xander756
Banned
(07-16-2013, 06:22 PM)
Also, as for the line about the majority of developers receiving other financial benefits, that is cited. If you were to click the cited source, you would see that over 70% receive financial benefits in addition to a salary. Last I checked, 70% is a majority, is it not?

If you disagree with that, take it up with the source, not me.
ultrazilla
Member
(07-16-2013, 06:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Xander756

Well, they ARE driving themselves out of business. The gaming industry is currently collapsing. Google it if you don't believe me. I don't want this to happen. Do you? Better to point out the reason why it's crumbling before it's gone than after.

While I don't think the industry is collapsing yet, I do agree it is the developers and
publishers who are fucking up the industry.

I can't begrudge anyone who wants to make as much money as they can and work
hard for it.

No, my beef is with the "Hollywood celebrity/rock star" mentality that has become the
scourge of the industry.

I don't know. I just never witnessed Atari 2600 developers bragging about
sports cars or hanging out at "exclusive v.i.p" parties. I guess what I'm getting
at is that they stayed humble.

You'll get little sympathy from me when you bitch about the rental market and why
DRM is good for us(it's not btw).

I guess that's why I tend to gravitate towards Nintendo and Indie devs. They just
seem more humbled and actually care about the industry.
cpp_is_king
Member
(07-16-2013, 06:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by Xander756

I did. Here you go: http://penguinrungames.com/images/averages.png

Averages are higher for gaming industry jobs than comparable non-industry jobs.

The problem with these numbers is that you don't don't know how to interpret them. "Programmers" is a VAST and highly general bucket encompassing all levels of skill. The skill variance is much lower among game programmers, and without exception, 100% of them can make 30-50% more out of the games industry.


And if you want to call me out on the fact that I quoted a phrase which you didn't actually say in the article, you might as well have said it with all your implications.

statements like this make one start to wonder if game developers and consequently publishers really should be making enough money to afford $70,000 sports cars to begin with.

So what does this mean then, if not that most developers are making enough money to afford $70,000 sports cars? Does it mean that you think exactly 0 game developers should be making enough to afford $70,000 sports cars? What about the CEOs of game development shops? What about programmers who grow into CEOs? What about the guy who founded the company out of his garage and it went on to make games that sell 10 million copies every time? Should that guy also not be able to affored a $70,000 car? Why should they be treated differently than every other industry in the world, where there are success stories?

And yet, the publisher has been raising the prices on their in-game items lately. Why? So people working there can afford more $70,000 sports cars?

Again with the implication. If you're not talking about "most", then what quantity are you talking about? 1 or 2? 10? "An insignificant number"? "A few"? Guess what, there's "a few" rich people in every profession.

I can count the number of Cliffy B's and John Carmack's on 2 hands. That's not a very high number for an entire industry. Go drive around the parking lot of your favorite game company and see how many $70,000 cars you see. Then count the number of Toyota Priuses, Honda Accords, and Toyota Camry's. Get back to me when you're done.

Are we to believe there isn't an equally qualified person out there willing to do this guy's job for less pay?

And here you've hit the nail on the head. Because that is EXACTLY what we are to believe, since it is the truth. The difference between a $50,000 engineer and a $120,000 engineer is so vast that it can't even be quantified with a dollar value. Unless maybe we're talking about the dollar value that the entire game brings in in revenue, since it is precisely because of the $120,000 engineers that the game is even able to ship at all. A single $120,000 engineer is FAR CHEAPER than 2.4 $50,000 engineers. In fact, I would go so far as to say that 2.4 $50,000 engineers (or even 1 for that matter) are a straight up liability and will put your game at risk of not even shipping at all.

But of course you don't know or understand any of this, because you don't know anything about the industry other than what you've collected from some unscientific, meaningless aggregated data that you don't know how to interpret.
Last edited by cpp_is_king; 07-16-2013 at 06:33 PM.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
(07-16-2013, 06:24 PM)
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I don't get why guys like Clifford are making all this money but the rest of the people who make the game are basically slave laborers.
Kysen
Member
(07-16-2013, 06:24 PM)
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Game developers make the lowest out of all programming jobs here in the UK. You should see the starting salaries for any financial related job. Glad I dodged a bullet and went straight into server related programming. Then there is the issue of job security, Game dev studios are getting shut left and right lately none are safe.
Marty Chinn
Member
(07-16-2013, 06:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Xander756

Um it clearly says as of June 30, 2013. 2 years outdated...? Wat?

It's funny how you're attacking people for not being able to comprehend, but you yourself could not read a simple sentence. I said, the chart I posted is 2 years out of date and already shows higher wages at a median level than your quote of average. An average would skew the figures I showed even higher. Those figures are two years out of date and they're even higher now. That's what you should be comparing it to. Heck, here it is again just since you can't see it. These stats are from 2011 and are median not average.



Plus going to YOUR source, this is the current average wage for a Software Engineer in San Jose:

software engineer in San Jose, CA
$125,000

The article is about people making six figure salaries. It says so right in the article. Not my fault if you didn't understand that.

No it doesn't. You not once specifically say you're targeting only six figure salaries. You at best claim the average salary is over six figures once you factor in benefits. At all times you keep saying developers though, not developers at the high end of the scale or developers who make six figures. It is your fault since you are the author of the article and you're trying to convey a point. You're the one responsible and you're wondering why you're getting so much flack.

Again, keep in mind you're in the minority. If a majority of people understood it fine, then ti is obviously not the fault of the writer or the writing when some people don't. It's on their shoulders.

You keep saying anyone attacking you is in the minority. Based on what evidence? A majority of the responses in public have been negative against you. There is a huge overwhelming negative response across the board from here and other sites about the article you wrote being poorly written. Heck, just look at this thread alone on who is being positive and who is being negative towards your article. You have the problem of selectively choosing what fits your argument and ignoring stuff that doesn't and just shrugging it off at best. Hell you didn't even address my original response to you. You're grasping for anything that makes you look right and can't admit you're wrong or your argument was flawed.
Last edited by Marty Chinn; 07-16-2013 at 06:35 PM.
cpp_is_king
Member
(07-16-2013, 06:37 PM)
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the majority of game developers also receive a myriad of fringe benefits including stock options, annual bonuses, project bonuses, royalties for games they have worked on, medical benefits, dental coverage, and even pension plans.

Oh and here we go again.

1) Almost no game developers receive stock options. What percentage of game developers even work for publicly traded companies? Let me know when you've found the answer. (BTW, Activision, or at least Blizzard anyway doesn't give stock even though they are public)

2) Even fewer game developers receive royalties.

3) Probably exactly 0 game developers receive pension plans.
Last edited by cpp_is_king; 07-16-2013 at 06:41 PM.
Xander756
Banned
(07-16-2013, 06:38 PM)

Originally Posted by ultrazilla

While I don't think the industry is collapsing yet, I do agree it is the developers and
publishers who are fucking up the industry.

I can't begrudge anyone who wants to make as much money as they can and work
hard for it.

No, my beef is with the "Hollywood celebrity/rock star" mentality that has become the
scourge of the industry.

I don't know. I just never witnessed Atari 2600 developers bragging about
sports cars or hanging out at "exclusive v.i.p" parties. I guess what I'm getting
at is that they stayed humble.

You'll get little sympathy from me when you bitch about the rental market and why
DRM is good for us(it's not btw).

I guess that's why I tend to gravitate towards Nintendo and Indie devs. They just
seem more humbled and actually care about the industry.

Yes! This +100!
SublimeO12
Junior Member
(07-16-2013, 06:40 PM)

Originally Posted by Kysen

Game developers make the lowest out of all programming jobs here in the UK. You should see the starting salaries for any financial related job. Glad I dodged a bullet and went straight into server related programming. Then there is the issue of job security, Game dev studios are getting shut left and right lately none are safe.

This I think is *exactly* the right point that needs to be made. As a programmer in the industry, the fact is that developers are underpaid compared to what they could be making with the same skillset outside the games industry. The reason we put up with it is because we love games, simple as that.

The original article seems to have completely failed to address the real issue of why games are so expensive, and it has nothing to do with the 70k dollar sports car being driven by executives. Every industry has overpaid executives. The real issue is the ballooning of team sizes at the studios owned and run by major publishers. When it takes 1000s of devs at multiple studios internationally to ship a big budget game, you quickly start to realize why the nickle&dime DLC and annual sequels pop up this generation.
Xander756
Banned
(07-16-2013, 06:41 PM)

You keep saying anyone attacking you is in the minority. Based on what evidence? A majority of the responses in public have been negative against you.

The article had over 9,000 FB likes before it was finally taken down. The "counter" had less than 1,000.

I've received a lot of twitter comments and email comments of people thanking me for writing this and for "taking the hits other journalists are too afraid of taking" and for exposing this for happening. Some have even gone so far as to call me a hero which is probably a little overboard lol.

Like I wrote in the follow up article yesterday, it doesn't matter how many comments from developers there are saying I'm wrong because it would like me writing an article about overspending in congress. The people applaud it and love it but congressmen all comment on the article saying I'm wrong and stupid. How much weight should comments from congressmen about an article criticizing congressmen truly have?
Marty Chinn
Member
(07-16-2013, 06:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by ultrazilla

I don't know. I just never witnessed Atari 2600 developers bragging about
sports cars or hanging out at "exclusive v.i.p" parties. I guess what I'm getting
at is that they stayed humble.

This happened; we just didn't have the Internet back then to brag about it. It definitely happened though. The Atari 2600 era was the wild wild west and so many people got rich and blew all their money away on things.
Xander756
Banned
(07-16-2013, 06:42 PM)

Originally Posted by cpp_is_king

Oh and here we go again.

1) Almost no game developers receive stock options. What percentage of game developers even work for publicly traded companies? Let me know when you've found the answer. (BTW, Activision, or at least Blizzard anyway doesn't give stock even though they are public)

2) Even fewer game developers receive royalties.

3) Probably exactly 0 game developers receive pension plans.

Take that up with the cited source from the article then if you don't believe their findings.
dankir
Member
(07-16-2013, 06:43 PM)
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CliffyB has a Gallardo no?
cpp_is_king
Member
(07-16-2013, 06:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Xander756

Take that up with the cited source from the article then if you don't believe their findings.

Everyone on the internet can be a source. You can cite me as saying it's false. See how easy this is? Like everything else in your article, your sources are garbage (partly because they're garbage, and partly because you don't know how to interpret their findings)
Xander756
Banned
(07-16-2013, 06:44 PM)
@Marty Chinn Also, I see your graph shows the median pay for jobs. What bearing does this have on the article? The article is about the average salary, not the median salary. Do you understand there is a difference between average and median? This is a very basic mathematical principle. The fact you're showing a graph about median pay suggests you don't understand the difference. How can that be blamed on me? I shouldn't have to teach you math, should I?
Xander756
Banned
(07-16-2013, 06:45 PM)

Originally Posted by cpp_is_king

Everyone on the internet can be a source. You can cite me as saying it's false. See how easy this is? Like everything else in your article, your sources are garbage (partly because they're garbage, and partly because you don't know how to interpret their findings)

Those particular numbers came from Game Developer Magazine. They are garbage?
Marty Chinn
Member
(07-16-2013, 06:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Xander756

The article had over 9,000 FB likes before it was finally taken down. The "counter" had less than 1,000.

I've received a lot of twitter comments and email comments of people thanking me for writing this and for "taking the hits other journalists are too afraid of taking" and for exposing this for happening. Some have even gone so far as to call me a hero which is probably a little overboard lol.

Like I wrote in the follow up article yesterday, it doesn't matter how many comments from developers there are saying I'm wrong because it would like me writing an article about overspending in congress. The people applaud it and love it but congressmen all comment on the article saying I'm wrong and stupid. How much weight should comments from congressmen about an article criticizing congressmen truly have?

Once again, you selectively cherry pick what to talk about. That's your problem. There are huge problems with the industry and I'm all for articles that do an intelligent analysis and call them out on it based on evidence. You didn't do that. You gathered a bunch of facts, and pieced them together because they sounded good. You did the equivalent of, it was cloudy on the first day of the month, therefore it will always be cloudy on the first day of the month. See that fact that it was cloudy on the first day of the month this month? It's a true fact, you can't dispute the fact. It's not the facts that is the problem; it's your interpretation and how you try to fit it all to form an argument that is flawed. You still continue to ignore that the median salary for a middle tier software engineer at companies in the silicon valley have a higher salary than even your average quoted salary for a game developer. The point that you can't seem to every want to admit is that game developers make less than comparable jobs in other industries. You still can't admit that despite the facts being thrown at you.

Originally Posted by Xander756

@Marty Chinn Also, I see your graph shows the median pay for jobs. What bearing does this have on the article? The article is about the average salary, not the median salary. Do you understand there is a difference between average and median? This is a very basic mathematical principle. The fact you're showing a graph about median pay suggests you don't understand the difference. How can that be blamed on me? I shouldn't have to teach you math, should I?

No, I understand the difference. The thing though is that average often skewers the stat higher, not lower. But you don't seem to understand that. The fact that even at the median stat, they are already higher is very telling. I understand the difference; what you can't seem to do is comprehend how it's meaningful. Plus I also showed you a stat of AVERAGE salary for a software engineer in San Jose from the source you used and it's at 125k. So either way there are stats that show game developers/programmers make less than they would in another industry.
Last edited by Marty Chinn; 07-16-2013 at 06:49 PM.
Xander756
Banned
(07-16-2013, 06:47 PM)
Cliffy B is worth $15 million.
abrack08
Member
(07-16-2013, 06:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Xander756

@Marty Chinn Also, I see your graph shows the median pay for jobs. What bearing does this have on the article? The article is about the average salary, not the median salary. Do you understand there is a difference between average and median? This is a very basic mathematical principle. The fact you're showing a graph about median pay suggests you don't understand the difference. How can that be blamed on me? I shouldn't have to teach you math, should I?

Hahahahaha this guy can't be serious. Marty even said himself that it was a median, not average, and that the average would likely skew higher. And you just ignored that so you could insult him. It's not hard to see how you could write such a poor article, seeing the way you post.

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