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MrCookiepants
Member
(11-21-2013, 10:51 AM)
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Nobody's forcing you to buy this stuff. It's just another way to get money out of lazy and/or stupid people.

Everyone was up in arms about Dead Space 3 and it turned out to be nothing.
Reila
Member
(11-21-2013, 10:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by mclem

I'm not going to chastise them for this until I know if the balance has changed for the worse from the original version.

I see. I'd rather not support a company that propose such bullshit in their games, but hey, that is just me.
Stone Ocean
Member
(11-21-2013, 11:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by MrCookiepants

Nobody's forcing you to buy this stuff. It's just another way to get money out of lazy and/or stupid people.

Everyone was up in arms about Dead Space 3 and it turned out to be nothing.

If you can pretend the overall design of how the game work won't suffer to force you into actually wanting to buy these things to save time instead of getting frustrated by it, sure, "nobody's forcing you".
Petrae
Member
(11-21-2013, 11:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by Green Yoshi

What happened to cheat codes? I don't want to pay 70$ for a Formula 1 car in Forza 5 that is already on the disc.

Internet connectivity on consoles happened, followed by the introduction of digital content and unlocks. Why give something away for free (which cheat codes did) when you can charge for it and add revenue to your bottom line?

Welcome to console gaming in the 21st century. It's not changing anytime soon-- if ever.
Vorg
Member
(11-21-2013, 11:08 AM)
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Is it true that they took out the Freeplay mode where you could pick the most expensive cars and just race them right away in any track?
Tak3n
Member
(11-21-2013, 11:09 AM)
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I think (apart from the money making element) the idea of providing shortcuts is not an unacceptable one...

it is in all our life's, if you fly for example, you are continually offered pay options to make your journey easier/quicker

In the UK the airports are even about to start to get in on the trick with a 9.99 premium security gate (no queuing) and anyone who has been through a main UK airport recently will know the security queuing is a killer

The argument is

Take John, he works 12 hours a day only gets a couple of hours a week to play BF3

Take Paul, he has a lot more free time on his hands and regularly plays BF3 for 4-5 hours a day

Now, should John be able to pay real money to circumvent the grind to unlock items, or should we say...nope you have to open them up like everyone else..

Now Paul will say, he should not be able to, but part of that is because Paul feels he should be more powerful than Jon ingame because he put the time in to unlock things

John will argue he should be able to as he wants to just enjoy his games, and not feel he is left behind in the race for gear/unlocks et al

The crucial thing here is what do EA think, what they don't want is John thinking that he wont bother buying BF3 because he simply does not have time to play it, they want to offer john a way to 'participate' on a level footing with other players

The only way to do that without offending Paul, is by making John pay

Hope that makes sense.....
legend166
Member
(11-21-2013, 11:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by Tak3n

I think (apart from the money making element) the idea of providing shortcuts is not an unacceptable one...

it is in all our life's, if you fly for example, you are continually offered pay options to make your journey easier/quicker

In the UK the airports are even about to start to get in on the trick with a 9.99 premium security gate (no queuing) and anyone who has been through a main UK airport recently will know the security queuing is a killer

The argument is

Take John, he works 12 hours a day only gets a couple of hours a week to play BF3

Take Paul, he has a lot more free time on his hands and regularly plays BF3 for 4-5 hours a day

Now, should John be able to pay real money to circumvent the grind to unlock items, or should we say...nope you have to open them up like everyone else..

Now Paul will say, he should not be able to, but part of that is because Paul feels he should be more powerful than Jon ingame because he put the time in to unlock things

John will argue he should be able to as he wants to just enjoy his games, and not feel he is left behind in the race for gear/unlocks et al

The crucial thing here is what do EA think, what they don't want is John thinking that he wont bother buying BF3 because he simply does not have time to play it, they want to offer john a way to 'participate' on a level footing with other players

The only way to do that without offending Paul, is by making John pay

Hope that makes sense.....

Or, you know, get rid of stupid grinding mechanics in games!
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
(11-21-2013, 11:17 AM)
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The worst thing about Forza 5 is that without all the grinding there really wouldn't be much to play on career's mode. Drivavatar is a very cool (and needed) addition but man is this game thin on content, so few cars and tracks on the base game, doesn't really add up to a full fledged 60 game to me.

Originally Posted by Tak3n

I think (apart from the money making element) the idea of providing shortcuts is not an unacceptable one...

it is in all our life's, if you fly for example, you are continually offered pay options to make your journey easier/quicker

In the UK the airports are even about to start to get in on the trick with a 9.99 premium security gate (no queuing) and anyone who has been through a main UK airport recently will know the security queuing is a killer

The argument is

Take John, he works 12 hours a day only gets a couple of hours a week to play BF3

Take Paul, he has a lot more free time on his hands and regularly plays BF3 for 4-5 hours a day

[..]

Hope that makes sense.....

Why not have both Paul and John have everything fucking unlocked from Day1. Unlockable perks in competitive games are FUCKING STUPID.
Last edited by Dash Kappei; 11-21-2013 at 11:19 AM.
Tak3n
Member
(11-21-2013, 11:20 AM)
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Originally Posted by legend166

Or, you know, get rid of stupid grinding mechanics in games!

Progression (Fair progression not unfair) is very popular, gamers tend to want that sense of achievement, not all

But if suddenly all weapons etc were unlocked from the get go, the game would be awful as the community would quickly find the best set up and you would have 64 players all running with the same gear

Devs have never been good at balancing games, and with a unlock system it allows them to not worry to much
mclem
Member
(11-21-2013, 11:50 AM)

Originally Posted by Reila

I see. I'd rather not support a company that propose such bullshit in their games, but hey, that is just me.

If the balance is unchanged, in this statement you are arguing that you will boycott a company who sells a product you wish to purchase (Bravely Default) simply because they also sell a product you do not wish to purchase (the timesaving microtransactions).

This seems confusing to me. I'm not a great fan of Parma Violets, but I'll still happily purchase a pack of Refreshers.
Basileus777
Member
(11-21-2013, 11:56 AM)
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Any game where you can purchase items with a random chance should be forced to have an M (or equivalent) rating and be slapped with a gambling warning label on the box and splash screen. Using alternative currencies should be banned, everything should be in real money. Unfortunately governments/platform holders aren't going to implement such regulations, at least not yet. As devs keep pushing the envelope on these gambling schemes in games, we're going to see regulators start stepping in.
Last edited by Basileus777; 11-21-2013 at 12:01 PM.
Reila
Member
(11-21-2013, 12:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by mclem

If the balance is unchanged, in this statement you are arguing that you will boycott a company who sells a product you wish to purchase (Bravely Default) simply because they also sell a product you do not wish to purchase (the timesaving microtransactions).

This seems confusing to me. I'm not a great fan of Parma Violets, but I'll still happily purchase a pack of Refreshers.

It is not that hard to understand, but let me try to explain it a bit: Bravely Default seems to be a sweet game, but it isn't a must for me, therefore there is no reason for me to go out of my way to buy it, if Square Enix is planning to fuck it up with microtransatctions. I refuse to support that.
BlackBuzzard
Member
(11-21-2013, 12:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by legend166

Or, you know, get rid of stupid grinding mechanics in games!

We have a winner.
Brian Fellows
Pete Carroll Owns Me
(11-21-2013, 12:30 PM)
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It's my fault guys. I just gave Activision another $50 for a season pass to Ghosts.
Petrie
Member
(11-21-2013, 12:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by Abounder




RIP NFL2k, and fuck you EA for your anti consumer bullshit. EA being one of the biggest video game companies around just makes me a sad panda for the industry

What you mean to say is fuck the NFL, as they were the ones who wanted to go exclusive to maintain more control and make more cash. EA did not go to them looking for the exclusive license.
Reila
Member
(11-21-2013, 12:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by NewGame

When it comes to DLC I vote with my wallet

...by not even buying the game in the first place! Pikmin 3 pulled a fast one on me though, I figured it'd be a finished game. I also avoided Fire Emblem: Awakening for the same reason. It seems even the ultra conventional Nintendo is not immune to money grubbing trends.

Here, I found someone in the thread who shares the same opinion as me. If the game is fucked up with DLC/microtransitctions, I'd rather just avoid it entirely. Of course exceptions can be made, if it is from a franchise that I really love, but so far that is yet to happen.
mclem
Member
(11-21-2013, 12:51 PM)

Originally Posted by Reila

Here, I found someone in the thread who shares the same opinion as me. If the game is fucked up with DLC/microtransitctions, I'd rather just avoid it entirely. Of course exceptions can be made, if it is from a franchise that I really love, but so far that is yet to happen.

Here's the problem I have: You are assuming that the presence of DLC/microtransactions will inherently fuck up a game. I believe that's something that should be appraised on a case-by-case basis, rather than prejudging.
MrCookiepants
Member
(11-21-2013, 12:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stone Ocean

If you can pretend the overall design of how the game work won't suffer to force you into actually wanting to buy these things to save time instead of getting frustrated by it, sure, "nobody's forcing you".

It didn't affect Dead Space negatively at all.

In fact, it would be a GOOD thing if Forza became more of a grind. They just gave you everything in Forza 4 and it took away half the fun.
Kosma
Member
(11-21-2013, 12:56 PM)
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I really don't like F2P games, because the game is skewed in favour of microtransactions.

I won't play full priced games either that have this mechanic, as it ruins the gameplay totally.
Basileus777
Member
(11-21-2013, 01:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by mclem

Here's the problem I have: You are assuming that the presence of DLC/microtransactions will inherently fuck up a game. I believe that's something that should be appraised on a case-by-case basis, rather than prejudging.

It's not a wrong assumption most of the time. F2P mechanics are inherently bad when they effect game design, and most of the time they are implemented, they do indeed alter the design of the game. The cases where they don't are usually the exception, because publishers/devs like money. There's nothing wrong with being predisposed against micro-transactions.
Petrie
Member
(11-21-2013, 01:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by Kosma

I really don't like F2P games, because the game is skewed in favour of microtransactions.

I won't play full priced games either that have this mechanic, as it ruins the gameplay totally.

That's an awful blanket statement. What do cosmetic alterations do to ruin gameplay? Look at a game like Dota 2.

Blanket statements are pure ignorance.
Basileus777
Member
(11-21-2013, 01:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by Petrie

That's an awful blanket statement. What do cosmetic alterations do to ruin gameplay? Look at a game like Dota 2.

Blanket statements are pure ignorance.

It's good that the game design isn't changed, but even Dota 2 uses gambling mechanics to sucker people.
Mxrz
Member
(11-21-2013, 01:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by MrCookiepants

Nobody's forcing you to buy this stuff. It's just another way to get money out of lazy and/or stupid people.

Everyone was up in arms about Dead Space 3 and it turned out to be nothing.

Problem there is when the game looks designed make those micro transactions more appealing.

Originally Posted by Tak3n

But if suddenly all weapons etc were unlocked from the get go, the game would be awful as the community would quickly find the best set up and you would have 64 players all running with the same gear

Dunno. It was always good enough for us in UT.
SaSliXCII
Banned
(11-21-2013, 01:06 PM)
Just the idea of micro transactions in GT6 means I won't ever purchase it, I have never bought DLC in my entire gaming life and never will, I think if companies release DLC, it should be free to enhance the game I already paid 40/$60 for. Otherwise they can suck my 3 inch erect dick.

Fuck Sony for putting in micro transactions, fuck Microsoft, fuck EA, Fuck 2K. I'll just stop gaming altogether if this continues or just play old titles.
jediyoshi
Banned
(11-21-2013, 01:07 PM)
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Originally Posted by Reila

I see. I'd rather not support a company that propose such bullshit in their games, but hey, that is just me.

Somehow I think the implication was that it being 'bullshit' was reliant on its implementation, but hey, that is just me.
PedroLumpy
Member
(11-21-2013, 01:09 PM)

Originally Posted by legend166

Or, you know, get rid of stupid grinding mechanics in games!

WHAT A CRAZY IDEA. I'd much rather have a completely artificial and unnecessary grind attached to all my games and then be charged money to bypass it.

But hey, grinds are 'not that bad', that justifies them right? It's not like they should be expected to make the game better in some way?

You know, we'll shit on a developers over framerate, resolution etc. which they don't even do on purpose. But this shit they'll do intentionally and somehow that's ok.
Nyx
Member
(11-21-2013, 01:10 PM)
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I actually don't mind ''pay to prevent a grind'' for singleplayer purposes.

People with less free time but more money can be able to see upper tier stuff in games too, and who am I to tell them not too?

But, when it's for multiplayer purposes, it stinks, very!
Respawn
Member
(11-21-2013, 01:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by BakedSardine

I think it's reasonable of gamers to not accept $60 games launching with $50 of DLC out of the gate.

Agreed.
Respawn
Member
(11-21-2013, 01:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Gucci Messiah

Why aren't more reviewers pointing this BS out?

After all the shit we've caught and called them on you're surprised at this? Why would they bite the hand that feeds them? Whatever spines they had have long since shriveled up and turned to dust.
Captain Star
Junior Member
(11-21-2013, 01:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Nyx

I actually don't mind ''pay to prevent a grind'' for singleplayer purposes.

People with less free time but more money can be able to see upper tier stuff in games too, and who am I to tell them not too?

But, when it's for multiplayer purposes, it stinks, very!


When developers design their game around excessively grindy elements just so that they can sell anti grind dlc, there's a huge problem.
mclem
Member
(11-21-2013, 01:48 PM)

Originally Posted by Respawn

Agreed.

Even if it's a $90 game being sold for $60?

Originally Posted by Captain Star

When developers design their game around excessively grindy elements just so that they can sell anti grind dlc, there's a huge problem.

Agreed. The point where I take issue with is the assumption that this is always the case. It's possible to do this *without* affecting game balance, and I'd argue that it's a healthier approach, too. If it really *is* necessary to have the average revenue per player higher than it currently is - and unless there's a big change to budgeting, that's likely to be the case - I think implementing microtransaction mechanics while still retaining balance without the mechanics in place is a healthy long-term plan for doing so safely.

Remember: If it's not *free* to play, the whales have less of an influence.
Last edited by mclem; 11-21-2013 at 01:52 PM.
Petrie
Member
(11-21-2013, 01:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by Basileus777

It's good that the game design isn't changed, but even Dota 2 uses gambling mechanics to sucker people.

Sucker people?

GAF continues the crazy.
Basileus777
Member
(11-21-2013, 02:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by Petrie

Sucker people?

GAF continues the crazy.

It's not crazy, that's how gambling works.
Petrie
Member
(11-21-2013, 02:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by Basileus777

It's not crazy, that's how gambling works.

A ponzi scheme is suckering people.

Gambling is people taking a chance based on odds.
Basileus777
Member
(11-21-2013, 02:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Petrie

A ponzi scheme is suckering people.

Gambling is people taking a chance based on odds.

Hah, you have an overly optimistic view of how the gambling industry works.
Petrie
Member
(11-21-2013, 02:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by Basileus777

Hah, you have an overly optimistic view of how the gambling industry works.

No. i know exactly how it works. People being foolish with their money doesn't mean they were "suckered". Anyone with half a brain knows exactly what they are getting.
Aeneas
Member
(11-21-2013, 02:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Joni

I have no problem with it if you can unlock them without problem. Say instead of playing half an hour you can just buy it, OK. You make it like that for lazy gamers.

This model is disgusting for full priced games. The fact that you can pay to save time will make designing the game to be more grindy result in more profits... This should be forbidden outside of free games.

Even when a developer says they the in game market model the same, I can't believe there wont be pressure inside the team analyzing how grindy vs how much profit from micro-transactions. And it would make me as a player enjoy playing less when there is a doubt in my mind as I am grinding credits that what I am doing is engineered to make me give up and grab my credit card. Makes me sick.
michaelx
Banned
(11-21-2013, 03:02 PM)
So, have any idea on which other titles we could see micros?

The worst thing is they usually never tell that ahead.
Delusibeta
Junior Member
(11-21-2013, 07:03 PM)
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Might as well stick this here. Thanks to alr, LiquidRain and Longinus00 over on Something Awful for posting the following, which I will now shamelessly steal.

This is prices for Forza 5's car tokens for mainland Europe.


Here's how many tokens per Euro you'll get in each bundle:

100 Pack = 100 Token per Euro
8000 Pack = 80
325 Pack = 65
1250 Pack = 62.5
575 Pack = 57.5
2700 Pack = 54

Note that the recommended bundles are also the worst value, and despair,
mackattk
Member
(11-21-2013, 07:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by Decarb

I don't understand why people call it grinding. Isn't the term used for something you hate doing repeatedly in a game? If that's the case then why are you playing sim racers? People call GT5 too grind-y, but as someone who reached lvl 40 in both A and B-spec and did all endurance races in real time, I thoroughly enjoyed putting 800+ hours (not counting online) in it. It's very easy to ignore microtansactions in a sim racing if you actually like playing the game instead of just unlocking stuff.


Sometimes things that are fun can be turned into a grind given the proper circumstances.
tsef
Member
(11-21-2013, 07:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Delusibeta


Here's how many tokens per Euro you'll get in each bundle:


Note that the recommended bundles are also the worst value, and despair,

WHAT !
If that picture is real that' a fucking disgrace.
Delusibeta
Junior Member
(11-21-2013, 07:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by tsef

WHAT !
If that picture is real that' a fucking disgrace.

Genuine, there's another thread about this that I completely blanked over.
SonyToo!
Member
(11-21-2013, 07:20 PM)
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Can someone correct me over Forza? Considering there are ppl denying what OP and Eurogamer are saying is true. Does the game still give free cars when you level up? In Forza 4 those free cars were a godsend keeping the game from getting too grindy.

Originally Posted by Delusibeta

This is prices for Forza 5's car tokens for mainland Europe.

It's only right super cars cost more than before, I mean real Ferrari's and Porches are expensive to buy, so it's only fitting that the game be more realistic!

Originally Posted by michaelx

So, have any idea on which other titles we could see micros?

The worst thing is they usually never tell that ahead.

I think atm just about anything with a progression system isn't safe, and considering they put in a progression system into a rail shooter, nothing is safe.

Really scummy of MS to have kept all of this under raps to get ppl hyped and preorder. I almost respect EA for been upfront about their games in the past.

Now we know why Jim Sterling was kicked out of Destructiod and black listed from getting review copies of MS games. Atleast Eurogamer still has the balls to call a spade a spade even if they had to kept to the embargo
Last edited by SonyToo!; 11-21-2013 at 07:29 PM.
tsef
Member
(11-21-2013, 07:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Delusibeta

Genuine, there's another thread about this that I completely blanked over.

Well I hope there will be a shitstorm, or as you sayI will despair :(
legend166
Member
(11-21-2013, 08:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by Tak3n

Progression (Fair progression not unfair) is very popular, gamers tend to want that sense of achievement, not all

But if suddenly all weapons etc were unlocked from the get go, the game would be awful as the community would quickly find the best set up and you would have 64 players all running with the same gear

Devs have never been good at balancing games, and with a unlock system it allows them to not worry to much

You can have progression mechanics without grinding mechanics.

For a racing game, you can just tie car/track unlocks to actual game progression.

Win a race? Unlock a car! Instead of win a race? Get points that you can put towards unlocking cars!

One allows you to have a progression mechanic. The other, when combined with microtransactions, is going to be a recipe for disaster.
Seanspeed
Member
(11-23-2013, 09:30 AM)
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After learning a bit more about how Forza 5 works, I must say, they definitely have made some changes that are, without a doubt, designed to encourage people to buy cars with real money to the detriment of the game experience.

Seems like earning potential and car prices haven't changed. That's the good news.

But these few things all combine to make a pretty big and noticeable difference:

- No cars unlocked as you level. There is no logical, game-enhancing reason this was taken out. Its something that most everyone enjoyed. Some tweaks could have been to the 'progression' of cars you unlocked, but certainly no one wanted the whole system taken out.

- Manufacturer affinity is gone. This was something that also could have used some tweaking, but was otherwise a very good idea. Before, you could basically get free upgrades quite quickly. That could have used changing. It was definitely too quick. But again, people liked the system and it didn't warrant taking out. The fact that you can use tokens to buy upgrades now makes it blatantly obvious what the intentions were here.

- Free Play no longer allows you to drive any car in the game. Before, while some cars were quite expensive, it didn't stop people from the enjoyment of driving them if they wanted to. You just wouldn't own the car, couldn't customize it or race it in career. This was a fantastic compromise, as you could test drive anything you wanted and even if you couldn't afford an expensive car you really liked, you could still get to experience it out on-track. With that gone, it really pushes at the car collector types to pay real money.

- No buying/selling paints/setups/vinyls. You can still make some money off of this, but there will clearly not be any sort of ecosystem built around this like before. No reason for this to have happened. People *loved* the way it was.

- Buying cars and upgrades, the game definitely treats 'car tokens' as an equally viable way of bartering. Every step of the way, prices are given in credits and tokens, with equal font size and all, even going as far as having a little pop-up menu to 'confirm' whether you're going to buy with credits or tokens.

It all amounts to a blatant attempt at encouraging people to spend more money. All at the detriment of the game from several important angles.

So I was wrong here guys for defending this. I didn't realize it was going to be that bad. Its definitely not like previous Forza's at all and is totally shameful.
Izayoi
(11-23-2013, 09:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by Seanspeed

So I was wrong here guys for defending this. I didn't realize it was going to be that bad. Its definitely not like previous Forza's at all and is totally shameful.

All that I feel is sadness. My favorite racing franchise ruined by microtransactions.

:(
jabuseika
Member
(11-23-2013, 09:25 PM)
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Any reviewers that makes it a point to tells us which games do this, and negatively mark on their final score these practices, will start getting my views.

They're hampering the experience of a customer that pays $60, in order to get more money from a few suckers.

Nothing will change if you just chose not to buy these games. There needs to be a backlash against games that have these "fee to enhance enjoyment" systems.
viveks86
Member
(11-23-2013, 10:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by Seanspeed

After learning a bit more about how Forza 5 works, I must say, they definitely have made some changes that are, without a doubt, designed to encourage people to buy cars with real money to the detriment of the game experience.

Seems like earning potential and car prices haven't changed. That's the good news.

But these few things all combine to make a pretty big and noticeable difference:

- No cars unlocked as you level. There is no logical, game-enhancing reason this was taken out. Its something that most everyone enjoyed. Some tweaks could have been to the 'progression' of cars you unlocked, but certainly no one wanted the whole system taken out.

- Manufacturer affinity is gone. This was something that also could have used some tweaking, but was otherwise a very good idea. Before, you could basically get free upgrades quite quickly. That could have used changing. It was definitely too quick. But again, people liked the system and it didn't warrant taking out. The fact that you can use tokens to buy upgrades now makes it blatantly obvious what the intentions were here.

- Free Play no longer allows you to drive any car in the game. Before, while some cars were quite expensive, it didn't stop people from the enjoyment of driving them if they wanted to. You just wouldn't own the car, couldn't customize it or race it in career. This was a fantastic compromise, as you could test drive anything you wanted and even if you couldn't afford an expensive car you really liked, you could still get to experience it out on-track. With that gone, it really pushes at the car collector types to pay real money.

- No buying/selling paints/setups/vinyls. You can still make some money off of this, but there will clearly not be any sort of ecosystem built around this like before. No reason for this to have happened. People *loved* the way it was.

- Buying cars and upgrades, the game definitely treats 'car tokens' as an equally viable way of bartering. Every step of the way, prices are given in credits and tokens, with equal font size and all, even going as far as having a little pop-up menu to 'confirm' whether you're going to buy with credits or tokens.

It all amounts to a blatant attempt at encouraging people to spend more money. All at the detriment of the game from several important angles.

So I was wrong here guys for defending this. I didn't realize it was going to be that bad. Its definitely not like previous Forza's at all and is totally shameful.

Good post, Seanspeed. This definitely should go in the OP. This is getting ridiculous and I hope this doesn't become a trend.
akira28
am I an eager baby bird?
am I a cute baby bunny?
(11-23-2013, 10:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Petrie

No. i know exactly how it works. People being foolish with their money doesn't mean they were "suckered". Anyone with half a brain knows exactly what they are getting.

one man's fool is another man's sucker. encouraging people to be foolish with their money isn't really that much better.

Are you the gaffer who used to work on slot machines?

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