NeoGAF

Originally Posted by Steroyd

And when that happens and a shitstorm comes and subsequently less game sales of the franchise happens they'll see at what point they crossed the line.

Just because I buy a game where MT's exist doesn't mean I'll be subliminally accepting getting my arse fucked over when they screw up game progression in favour of or advertising the crap out of their MT's in-game just to piss me off.

A shitstorm? Look at Forza 5, full shitstorm mode and nothing has changed.

If you buy a game with MT's and you know about it you are accepting you arse getting fucked. The only difference between Forza and GT6 is, Forza straight knocked you out and mounted you on the spot. GT6 is the a nice meal and a bottle of wine. Setting you up for GT7 to come in and bend you over...

So microtransactions arent as bad in GT6 because the grind is as bad as its always been.

So what is the average time to get the 20 mill car in GT5 without using special case online races(which the majority of players will not partake in) anway?

Originally Posted by Speedloafer

A shitstorm? Look at Forza 5, full shitstorm mode and nothing has changed.

If you buy a game with MT's and you know about it you are accepting you arse getting fucked. The only difference between Forza and GT6 is, Forza straight knocked you out and mounted you on the spot. GT6 is the a nice meal and a bottle of wine. Setting you up for GT7 to come in and bend you over...

Then I'll simply not buy GT7 when they try to bend me over.

Besides we don't know what Forza 5's total sales are compared to it's predecessors so it's too early to say wether it has an adverse reaction in the grand scheme of things and Turn 10 did say they're looking to 're-adjust the economy which is a victory of sorts. GT has a much higher mountain to fall from.

I'm not worried about the grind, because I won't be. B-Spec and Seasonals will get me everything that I want.

Originally Posted by Speedloafer

I cant believe people are defending the inclusion of Mircrotransactions is a full priced game. When the publishers sit down with the devs to talk about profit do you not think the question "Why are people not buying our cars with real money?" will be asked. And when the devs answer "Well they don't need to as its pretty easy to get credits by playing the game". It doesn't take a genius to figure out what happens next.

Well, since in this case that publisher is Sony Computer Entertainment, and the person in particular asking this question would be Shuhei Yoshida, I'd imagine what happens next would be:

1. him congratulating the team on making a game people really enjoy playing and that millions bought at a full $60 MSRP, making Sony significant profit.

2. asking the team to see usage statistics.

3. beginning talks on how they can use the obviously powerful GT brand and the strong 6th entry to fuel PS4 sales, namely a save file roll over to a GT6 up-port, in order to reward the hardcore GT player when they move up to the PS Foursies.

Originally Posted by SmokyDave

Then the numbers look even worse at their end, and the chance of the next game having predatory microtransactions increases :(

It's a lose-lose situation.

All F2P games live off of a very, very small portion of the user base spending absurd amounts of money. The "whales" aren't going away and GT6 will likely grab more than it's fair share of them.

The unobtrusive microtransaction system in The Show hasn't grown into some insidious monster over time. It's stayed the same unobtrusive little option outside of Sony using free baseball bucks as a pre-order perk. Hell, if anything I felt 2013 was one of the easier progression tracks in the series so far.

Originally Posted by Cumpkin Hubris

That's not a loud and clear message.



Just buy it second hand SmokyDave (and obviously don't make any microtransactions). You keep your principles and get to play the game - win/win.

But it is. EA stopped online passes as they didn't have the return in terms of revenue to even bother (they stated users feedback also). If people don't buy into these Sony and other companies will eliminate them and just implement new ways to try to maximize their revenue or just be more creative about it.

Originally Posted by rvy

Buy the game. Don''t buy the credits.

Come on, Dave.

This.

Originally Posted by Speedloafer

If you buy a game with MT's and you know about it you are accepting you arse getting fucked. The only difference between Forza and GT6 is, Forza straight knocked you out and mounted you on the spot. GT6 is the a nice meal and a bottle of wine. Setting you up for GT7 to come in and bend you over...

I've said in other threads why I suspect that won't happen - or, to be a bit more accurate, why I suspect that doing that would be a very unwise decision.

One thing that's overlooked about F2P versus paymium is the sources of revenue. F2P's primary source of revenue is through the microtransactions, primarily big-spending whales. With paymium, though, the primary source of revenue is sales of the game itself, and any decisions about changing the game flow to promote the sale of microtransactions should bear that in mind - you don't want to cripple your primary revenue source in the process of seeking out a secondary revenue source.

That's why I think we'll get a period of experimentation - Forza and GT6 as examples of that currently - and when all's said and done, we'll end up with a grind balanced much like it always was, with microtransactions allowing you to skip parts if you so wish.

Of course, that's a prediction; it's going to be somewhat dependent on how the economy of things pans out, but I doubt it'll go to the extent that the microtransaction revenue exceeds the revenue from actual sales.

why do people mention cheat codes..? has there EVER been a cheatcode in Gran Turismo games..? no.. then keep that out of the discussion..

Originally Posted by sajj316

Couldn't you just buy the game and not entertain micro transactional purchases? I think Sony will hear loud and clear if nothing is bought in-game.

f2p games are 90 percent non payers a few percent paying players and 1-2 percent whales who spend thousands

they don't care if the majority doesn't pay, as long as the wales do their thing, the f2p crowd is only tolerated/accomodated to provide someone for the whales to play against.

This is a full priced game though... so designing it around whales while everyone else also already paid 60-70 euros is disgusting

The naivety in this thread of 'this time it'll be different' is hilarious.
No it won't be. They'll ease you into getting fleeced

Originally Posted by SneakyStephan

f2p games are 90 percent non payers a few percent paying players and 1-2 percent whales who spend thousands

they don't care if the majority doesn't pay, as long as the wales do their thing, the f2p crowd is only tolerated/accomodated to provide someone for the whales to play against.

This is a full priced game though... so designing it around whales while everyone else also already paid 60-70 euros is disgusting

The naivety in this thread of 'this time it'll be different' is hilarious.
No it won't be. They'll ease you into getting fleeced

We're hearing that it isn't designed in such a way (or hasn't changed from GT5), I'm waiting on reviews personally, but right now it sounds like people aren't buying a game on the probability that the next iteration may be worse because "Sony to".

Originally Posted by Hanmik

why do people mention cheat codes..? has there EVER been a cheatcode in Gran Turismo games..? no.. then keep that out of the discussion..

But you did used to be able to download file saves that had all cars unlocked. Point is, instead of charging people for these things, those options should be available free of charge.

Ugh....will wait to hear more tomorrow from reviews and impressions before I pick up my reserve.

Originally Posted by Corto

But it is. EA stopped online passes as they didn't have the return in terms of revenue to even bother (they stated users feedback also). If people don't buy into these Sony and other companies will eliminate them and just implement new ways to try to maximize their revenue or just be more creative about it.

The monetisation is supported by ~3% of users. If you're not in that 3% (i.e. not a whale) the devs made all the money they were ever going to make as soon as you purchase the game new. They do not care if you stoicly don't buy microtransactions in the game, just so long as you bought it.

If you really want to play the game, at least buy it used. Don't support this shady business model with your money.

I'm beginning to wish last gen never ended...

Originally Posted by SneakyStephan

f2p games are 90 percent non payers a few percent paying players and 1-2 percent whales who spend thousands

they don't care if the majority doesn't pay, as long as the wales do their thing, the f2p crowd is only tolerated/accomodated to provide someone for the whales to play against.

This is a full priced game though... so designing it around whales while everyone else also already paid 60-70 euros is disgusting

The naivety in this thread of 'this time it'll be different' is hilarious.
No it won't be. They'll ease you into getting fleeced

They'll ease you into it if you let them to.

Originally Posted by nib95

But you did used to be able to download file saves that had all cars unlocked. Point is, instead of charging people for these things, those options should be available free of charge.

Bang on, G.

Fuck that shit.

Instead of adding micro-transactions, they should have added all cars to the arcade garage. I don't get why I need to grind, just to try out a car in a game that I already payed a full price for. I get why there is a progression system in career mode, but I don't get why cars have to locked away in every single game mode. This is just hurting "casuals" who just don't have the time to grind.

And even if you have the time, it's no fun. If you just want to have an individual car, you won't drive those tracks and cars that are fun, but those that yield the most credits per hour. I remember grinding credits in GT5 (Indianapolis) just to get the F1 cars, and I hated it. But driving my favorite car on my favorite track would just have taken much longer.

Originally Posted by Speedloafer

I cant believe people are defending the inclusion of Mircrotransactions is a full priced game. When the publishers sit down with the devs to talk about profit do you not think the question "Why are people not buying our cars with real money?" will be asked. And when the devs answer "Well they don't need to as its pretty easy to get credits by playing the game". It doesn't take a genius to figure out what happens next.

Sony is the publisher and Sony cares about it's gamers. They won't force game design changes just to make more money.

Originally Posted by nib95

But you did used to be able to download file saves that had all cars unlocked. Point is, instead of charging people for these things, those options should be available free of charge.

EHHH,,people made that happen.. not Polyphony Digital..

I get your point.. but yóu have NEVER been able to unlock anything in a Gran Turismo game before (as an added option). The game is still exactly the same as the other games in the series.. you can play it like you always have, there are no changes to that ..

Originally Posted by Kiraly

Because the prices and payouts are exactly the same as in GT5 and it tells you nowhere in-game you can buy credits with real money? Ok.

The economy in GT5 was gawd awful. Instead of addressing the issue they just added microtransactions.

Originally Posted by nib95

Fuck you Polyphony. This shit disgusts me. I can't buy in to this. My most hyped game and I'm on the verge of cancelling my pre order.

GT always had you grind for the best cars, if people want to pay to skip the grind let them.

No one is saying that you can't have these cars if you don't pay.

They should make two GT6 editions with the same price point! One with all microtransactions and dlc included and one without them so people with to much money still can waste it if they want :)

Originally Posted by LeeRoyBrown

I bought GT5 and stopped playing because of the grinding, over 1000 cars and it takes fucking 10 years to earn 1.

I also purchased the Special Edition for $250 I was that pumped, and put maybe 10 hours into the game max.

I get the feeling GT6 will be worse now.

No deal.

Want a Lexus Cherpreder?

$100 plox!

That's not really true, unless you want to unlock the best cars early on in the game. Once you get your A/S licenses, money comes easy. With hundreds of thousands being available at different events, sometimes more. There was one very short (1 minute or so?) Daytona race you could do in GT5 that netted like 50k or so.

Originally Posted by Hanmik

I get your point.. but yóu have NEVER been able to unlock anything in a Gran Turismo game before (as an added option). The game is still exactly the same as the other games in the series.. you can play it like you always have, there are no changes to that ..

And now they even have the "best" motivation imaginable to never change its damn grinding mechanics, or soften them by adding all cars to the arcade mode.

Originally Posted by daniels

They should make two GT6 editions with the same price point! One with all microtransactions and dlc included and one without them so people with to much money still can waste it if they want :)

That would be great, except there ARE NO MICRO-TRANSACTIONS IN THE GAME. You can merely buy points if you are lazy on the SEN/PSN Store. Everyone who has the game has said the in game economy is the same. Nothing in game tells you about these purchasable points. You can obtain everything via just playing the game. Furthermore, there will be plenty of free DLC cars. This thread is seriously rife with misinformation/jumping to conclusions.

Originally Posted by ElTorro

And now they even have the "best" motivation imaginable to never change its damn grinding mechanics, or soften them by adding all cars to the arcade mode.

If you think anything in Gran Turismo is "grinding" then Gran Turismo is not for you.

Originally Posted by ElTorro

And now they even have the "best" motivation imaginable to never change its damn grinding mechanics, or soften them by adding all cars to the arcade mode.

the grinding is something that has always been in Gran Turismo.. it´s part of the game.

The cars in Arcade mode though.. I wonder how that works in GT6..?

The grind in GT5 was already no fun so i dont want this game at all.

Originally Posted by SmokyDave

Then the numbers look even worse at their end, and the chance of the next game having predatory microtransactions increases :(

It's a lose-lose situation.

That's really the only way to send the message though. Even one fewer sale from you would add a tiny grain of sand to the "do not want" side of the scale. And you wouldn't even need to miss out on the game by buying used.

If it's like you say, and the choice really is microtransactions now or worse microtransactions later, then yeah that's a shitty choice. Even so, I say we make the stand now and point blank refuse to tolerate microtransactions in full price games, not just the predatory ones.

Originally Posted by Prophane33

If you think anything in Gran Turismo is "grinding" then Gran Turismo is not for you.

I disagree. I enjoy the driving very much, I just don't enjoy that I have to invest time to earn $12.500.000 (in GT5) to drive an F10. I get why I don't get those cars for free in career and online mode, and that's fine. What I don't get is why I don't get them for free in arcade mode, if all I want is to just try them, precisely because I enjoy the driving mechanics in the game the most, and not the career.

As I said, I can earn the money by driving my favorite car on my favorite track, but if my time budget only allows for 2 hours per week of gaming, all I can realistically do to get this car is to make a grinding session on a free day using the most efficient grinding track/car combination. And that's no fun.

And now with micro-transactions, Polyphony won't change that situation. Why should they? Monetizing on people like me is better for them.

Originally Posted by Prophane33

That would be great, except there ARE NO MICRO-TRANSACTIONS IN THE GAME. You can merely buy points if you are lazy on the SEN/PSN Store. Everyone who has the game has said the in game economy is the same. Nothing in game tells you about these purchasable points. You can obtain everything via just playing the game.

Dont be angry i just like to complain :)

Originally Posted by ElTorro

I disagree. I enjoy the driving very much, I just don't enjoy that I have to drive the equivalent of $12.500.000 (in GT5) to drive an F10. I get why I don't get those cars for free in career and online mode, and that's fine. What I don't get is why I don't get them for free in arcade mode, if all I want is to just try them, precisely because I enjoy the driving mechanics in the game the most, and not the career.

.

this is a very good point..

Originally Posted by maniac-kun

The grind in GT5 was already no fun so i dont want this game at all.

Seriously. I like how people are saying, "don't worry they didn't change anything, the grind is just as it was in GT5!" That is quite possibly the worst news for GT6 ever.

Originally Posted by ItIsOkBro

Seriously. I like how people are saying, "don't worry they didn't change anything, the grind is just as it was in GT5!" That is quite possibly the worst news for GT6 ever.

but look back at GT1 GT2 GT3 GT4 .. did you not have to grind exactly like in GT5 to get a car..? the only difference is the amount of cars available in GT5.

Let me attempt to apply logic here.

GT's have always been very "grindy" games
The grind was often mitigated/lessened by a specific event which would either provide a large payout for a short exercise or provide a car which could be sold for a significant amount of cash.

This changed in GT5 since events only gave you prized cars once making the game even more "grindy". To address this PD patched the rewards system so events paid out more which made the grind slightly less painful.

Fast forward to GT6 and we have a similar payout system to GT5 (post patch). I.e. still a painfully "grindy" experience however in this case the option exists (though it is not advertised in game) to purchase credits online for actual cash.

To some extent the actual cash required to purchase some cars appears ridiculous but only in isolation. The reason being the economy of GT6 (and 5) is rather vast with cars of similar performance having massive differences in prices.

Basically if you ignore the "macro"transactions then this GT is exactly like GT5 - and you should because, unless you're interested in performance for your buck (buying the cars with the best price/performance ratio), it just doesn't make any sense to purchase credits online.

In other words the ability to buy credits does not fix nor break (any further) GT's already broken "grindy" progression/payout system. My main issue with GT has always been that cars should be attainable based on skill not price. This has been the case sometimes but not always - also credit caps are retarded

Originally Posted by daniels

Dont be angry i just like to complain :)

It's all good. :-)

The 1.01 day 1 patch also adds more prize cars, among other tweaks.

Also, I completely agree that all (most?) cars should be available in Arcade mode.

Originally Posted by Hanmik

but look back at GT1 GT2 GT3 GT4 .. did you not have to grind exactly like in GT5 to get a car..? the only difference is the amount of cars available in GT5.

The grind in GT5 was much worse than previous GTs.

Originally Posted by ItIsOkBro

The grind in GT5 was much worse than previous GTs.

any examples..? were the cars more expensive than in previous games..? was the payout from events much lower than in previous games..?

Originally Posted by nib95

That's not really true, unless you want to unlock the best cars early on in the game. Once you get your A/S licenses, money comes easy. With hundreds of thousands being available at different events, sometimes more. There was one very short (1 minute or so?) Daytona race you could do in GT5 that netted like 50k or so.

It was really true for me.

The license tests were BORING AS HELL. Honestly driving those combi vans on the Top Gear track was one of the most robotic, boring and frustrating experiences of my gaming life. You had to drive those slow as shit cars perfectly or you couldnt win.

Pretty much summed up my experience with the game, I just don't understand where the love or fun was, I dont want to drive around in circles for $50k. Progression should be progression, not repeating the same nausiating experience over and over for a new car. I wanted new challenges but had to grind to get the car to do them. So I had to grind to get cars I didn't even want to buy, and then grind just to do challenges that were boring in themselves.

Nice graphics though :S

I've seen nothing in GT6 that makes me want to buy. News like this just makes me fear the worst. I'll wait for reviews I guess.

Originally Posted by MDX

For those that don't seem to get why this is a problem:

We went from free games with microstransactions to retail priced games with microtransactions. Think about that.

They have just moved the bar.

Maybe GT6 implements microtransactions in a benign way, but what about
GT7? Or any other future title- this gen -after the public accepts the concept of retail
games and microtransactions?

Its about increments. Its about getting you used to a casino mentality, accepting DRM, paying for shoddy hardware and incomplete software, and every other policy and practice that we would have never stood for years ago.

We are worried about the "slippery slope". If we don't stop it now, it will grow like
weeds and kill the garden we call the game industry.

what the heck are u talking about? You Are a consumer, stop talking like there's some movement to be had here. The industry will go in whatever way makes the most money. If you think we can stop different business models from happening keep dreaming, but there's no need to push ur agenda or preference on anyone. Don't buy it, that's pretty much your only option as million of people will gladly just play the game for long hours to unlock everything that's kinda the point to gran turismo for one. Ppl are gonna be in for a ride awakening. I think this whole drm deal went to peoples heads. Ms changed there tune because of money. New business models work or fail based on money. Surely we understand how much this dictates things by now

Originally Posted by ItIsOkBro

The grind in GT5 was much worse than previous GTs.

I definitely don't remember cars costing 20,000,000 in GT games prior to GT5.

Originally Posted by Hanmik

any examples..? were the cars more expensive than in previous games..? was the payout from events much lower than in previous games..?

GT4: rewinning all prize cars (even single race events), b-spec 3x speed
GT5: can't rewin prize cars, b-spec 2x the laps of a-spec, experience blocking...

More people should know and love the glory of B-spec.
Credit acquisition has never really been a concern, at least, not in my personal view.
You want a nice car, get on the track and earn it. You don't have to spend a dime.

Welp, this is just great. Instead of fixing the grind, they included microtransactions.

Man, this generation is promising! /s

Originally Posted by IISANDERII

I definitely don't remember cars costing 20,000,000 in GT games prior to GT5.

I think the Bentley speed 8 race car costs 5.650.000 credits in GT4.. (I seem to remember that car as the most expensive)

And in GT3 it was the Panoz Esperante GTR-1 for 2.000.000 credits.

so you are right..

Originally Posted by ItIsOkBro

GT4: rewinning all prize cars (even single race events), b-spec 3x speed
GT5: can't rewin prize cars, b-spec 2x the laps of a-spec, experience blocking...

ohh forgot about the rewin´s ..

They should have 'fixed' dat grind

Originally Posted by Cumpkin Hubris

That's really the only way to send the message though. Even one fewer sale from you would add a tiny grain of sand to the "do not want" side of the scale. And you wouldn't even need to miss out on the game by buying used.

If it's like you say, and the choice really is microtransactions now or worse microtransactions later, then yeah that's a shitty choice. Even so, I say we make the stand now and point blank refuse to tolerate microtransactions in full price games, not just the predatory ones.

Sad reality is you've either got to learn to live with the ones that don't affect directly/piss you off indirectly (Horse Armour dlc), or just quit that franchise and alot of other games altogether.

If I took your stance on MT's merely existing in games in the same manner as Horse Armour type dlc existing in games I'd probably only have a handful of titles at most for the PS3.

Originally Posted by LeeRoyBrown

I bought GT5 and stopped playing because of the grinding, over 1000 cars and it takes fucking 10 years to earn 1.

I also purchased the Special Edition for $250 I was that pumped, and put maybe 10 hours into the game max.

I get the feeling GT6 will be worse now.

No deal.

Want a Lexus Cherpreder?

$100 plox!



That dead set has nothing to do with it.

The grinding is fucking mind numbing as it is in GT5.

You need to compete in the online seasonal events. I've seriously hit 20 million credits 4 different times now. Because of the 20 million credit limit you can't earn more, so I have no choice but to keep spending it all.

Originally Posted by Fried Food

Sony is the publisher and Sony cares about it's gamers. They won't force game design changes just to make more money.

Sony want to and have to make money. That is why they make all the stuff they do. They may care about the gamer to an extent but they care about their money more. You do see a price tag in Sony products they don't give them away for free.

You notice they now charge for online play on the PS4? I wonder where they got that idea from? It didn't come from their "care of the gamer".

I'm not suggesting in any way they don't have a right to make money, They do and they should, but to suggest everything they do is for us and is in our benefit is just absurd.