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Kampfheld · Jul 23, 2014

Mael said:
Conker is Seavor, without him there's no need to even begin to entertain the idea of making a sequel or anything.
Proof of that is that they actually contacted him to do the voicework because even at MSFT they know that without Seavor Conker is nothing that interesting to begin with.
Better ask for a Banjo sequel or something else entirely, Conker without Seavor is pretty much not Conker.
I'm not speaking about the VA here but the script really and everything about it.

I think Chris is in a state where he wouldn't say "no, never!" anymore.

The script for a Conker is even ready if I remember correctly.

Wouldn't it be a great irony? Conker: Another Bad Fur Day - developed by Dakota Studios with Chris helping

Holy shit, this would bomb.

Alx · Jul 23, 2014

MrNyarlathotep said:
I guess you guys think that Conker is fondly remembered for its mechanics and not for being an 'of the moment' zeitgeist parody of current trends.

That makes it even less relevant to ask the original guys to do it again. New zeitgeist, new critics. I'm not even sure the furry mascot would make sense in the current context, maybe the South Park game is what you're after.

Mael · Jul 23, 2014

We get it Alx, you don't care about a new Conker game (why make it if there's nothing from the original that makes it work?)

Kampfheld said:
I think Chris is in a state where he wouldn't say "no, never!" anymore.

The script for a Conker is even ready if I remember correctly.

Wouldn't it be a great irony? Conker: Another Bad Fur Day - developed by Dakota Studios with Chris helping Holy shit, this would bomb.

That would certainly be interesting, it's the closest we've ever been to a new game in quite a long time!
I'm sure MSFT will find a way to fuck it up, after all we're talking about something Rare.
Lightning won't strike twice.

NotLiquid · Jul 23, 2014

Hindle said:
It's going to happen.

Seavour used to despise MS and their management. Now that they've had a change, he's doing voice work for the character again? I think Him and Phil have had a good sit down.

I don't doubt that Seavor has a much higher opinion of Phil than he does Mattrick, but there's too many things going fuck up right now at Microsoft for a game like Conker to be considered on the cards since it ain't even in development. They might "talk" about it, but we don't even know how much Chris will demand of a game like Conker.

It's like how people instantly got ready for a Psychonauts sequel just because Notch wanted to fund it. Seavor only gave them a few lines of dialogue and that's it. Nice touch and all but it was consequence free and probably didn't require a lot of persuasion.

Azure Dream · Jul 23, 2014

Kampfheld said:
As I said before, I am 100% sure we will get a real new Conker this generation.

And now, I am at 117%.

"the Conker game assets"

I doubt the Project Spark Conker materials are lifted from Bad Fur Day Xbox, right?

Could just be read as "the assets that are for making Conker games", but could also be read as "the assets from the Conker game"...

MrNyarlathotep · Jul 23, 2014

Alx said:
That makes it even less relevant to ask the original guys to do it again. New zeitgeist, new critics. I'm not even sure the furry mascot would make sense in the current context, maybe the South Park game is what you're after.

Okay, well, I'm sure your hypothetical Conker game is well written, apt and of the moment, and not just lowest common denominator fart jokes because the only thing the people making it remember is the Poo opera.

Doffen · Jul 23, 2014

MrNyarlathotep said:
I guess you guys think that Conker is fondly remembered for its mechanics and not for being an 'of the moment' zeitgeist parody of current trends.

NotLiquid said:
Killer Instinct wasn't solely dependent on it's key visionary to build it's world and the writing.

Conker was not memorable because of it's game play.

Killer Instinct is proof that another team can capture the essence of an original Rare title and bring it into a new generation.

Phil S. · Jul 23, 2014

Doffen said:
Killer Instinct is proof that another team can capture the essence of an original Rare title and bring it into a new generation.

I think a fighting game is an easier plateau to reach and capture the essence of than say, a platformer.

Mael · Jul 23, 2014

Doffen said:
Killer Instinct is proof that another team can capture the essence of an original Rare title and bring it into a new generation.

Killer Instinct is quite a special case, if you can make a good MK clone you can make a good KI.
Heck it's not even that interesting as a fighter if you go beyond the surface (talking about the original, I didn't touch the new one)

MrNyarlathotep said:
Okay, well, I'm sure your hypothetical Conker game is well written, apt and of the moment, and not just lowest common denominator fart jokes because the only thing the people making it remember is the Poo opera.

That would be the worst case scenario something like our (Conker fans) worst nightmare!

NotLiquid said:
I don't doubt that Seavor has a much higher opinion of Phil than he does Mattrick, but there's too many things going fuck up right now at Microsoft for a game like Conker to be considered on the cards since it ain't even in development. They might "talk" about it, but we don't even know how much Chris will demand of a game like Conker.

It's like how people instantly got ready for a Psychonauts sequel just because Notch wanted to fund it. Seavor only gave them a few lines of dialogue and that's it. Nice touch and all but it was consequence free and probably didn't require a lot of persuasion.

I wouldn't be surprised if Spencer is much more likeable than Mattrick that rubbed people like Seavor the wrong way.
It would absolutely not surprise me that he really have a different opinion of Spencer.
Even in the world of suits not everyone is the same.

NotLiquid · Jul 23, 2014

Doffen said:
Killer Instinct is proof that another team can capture the essence of an original Rare title and bring it into a new generation.

It's proof that another team can replicate the essence of a Rare fighting game.

I hate to be the kind of person to say "genre -x- is harder to make than genre -y-", but Killer Instinct is generally a much lesser game in scope compared to Conker. You not only need the design chops for that but the ability to make a consistent comedy game, and if the countless delays to Stick of Truth taught us anything it's that it ain't easy.

Hindle · Jul 23, 2014

NotLiquid said:
I don't doubt that Seavor has a much higher opinion of Phil than he does Mattrick, but there's too many things going fuck up right now at Microsoft for a game like Conker to be considered on the cards since it ain't even in development. They might "talk" about it, but we don't even know how much Chris will demand of a game like Conker.

It's like how people instantly got ready for a Psychonauts sequel just because Notch wanted to fund it. Seavor only gave them a few lines of dialogue and that's it. Nice touch and all but it was consequence free and probably didn't require a lot of persuasion.

What's happening right now at MS is they're refocusing on games, Rare have just laid off their entire Kinect team as well.

Spencer isn't stupid, he knows the value of Conker, Banjo, and I'd assume he knows that making new games in those series, will win Xbox a lot of goodwill. I'm not saying the game is beung made, but I think discussions are ongoing.

Mael · Jul 23, 2014

NotLiquid said:
It's proof that another team can replicate the essence of a Rare fighting game.

I hate to be the kind of person to say "genre -x- is harder to make than genre -y-", but Killer Instinct is generally a much lesser game in scope compared to Conker. You not only need the design chops for that but the ability to make a consistent comedy game, and if the countless delays to Stick of Truth taught us anything it's that it ain't easy.

Heck Bad Fur Day was in dev hell too before.

Hindle said:
What's happening right now at MS is they're refocusing on games, Rare have just laid off their entire Kinect team as well.

Spencer isn't stupid, he knows the value of Conker, Banjo, and I'd assume he knows that making new games in those series, will win Xbox a lot of goodwill. I'm not saying the game is beung made, but I think discussions are ongoing.

Absolutely oen have to remember that there was a time when Nintendo was trying to do something like DKR while MSFT was trying to get Goldeneye64 and the interferance between MSFT and Nintendo is probably why both projects never came out in the state they should have.

Kampfheld · Jul 23, 2014

NotLiquid said:
It's proof that another team can replicate the essence of a Rare fighting game.

I hate to be the kind of person to say "genre -x- is harder to make than genre -y-", but Killer Instinct is generally a much lesser game in scope compared to Conker. You not only need the design chops for that but the ability to make a consistent comedy game, and if the countless delays to Stick of Truth taught us anything it's that it ain't easy.

Sometimes it works, sometimes not. You can not make generalizations on re-imaginations by another developer. It is not only dependent on the genre.

Killer Instinct 2013 is probably even a better game than the original KI ever was. That said, the main aspect it all depends on is how passionated the new team is about on excisting IP. You know, Double Helix wasn't really known for great games. Then Microsoft came to them. Then they suddenly they had this opportunity to prove themselves. They build an impressive tech demo within weeks. They wrote letters full of passion and history. The result is known: we got an excellent re-imagination of Killer Instinct. From a developer you wouldn't ever expect it.

Passion is a much more important aspect than gaming communities tend to believe. Humans are working on games. Not studio names. Not mashines. And not CEOs. I can assure you that as a developer myself. Talent is nothing when you are not passionated about the things you do. If they find a team that really wants to do Conker - it will be good.

NotLiquid · Jul 23, 2014

Hindle said:
What's happening right now at MS is they're refocusing on games, Rare have just laid off their entire Kinect team as well.

Spencer isn't stupid, he knows the value of Conker, Banjo, and I'd assume he knows that making new games in those series, will win Xbox a lot of goodwill. I'm not saying the game is beung made, but I think discussions are ongoing.

The value of Conker is... not a lot. Both Bad Fur Day and Live & Reloaded were commercial failures. They're strictly cult games.

Kampfheld said:
Sometimes it works, sometimes not. You can can now make generalizations on re-imaginations by another developer. It is not only dependent on the genre.

Killer Instinct 2013 is probably even a better game than the original KI ever was. That said, the main aspect it all depends on is how passionated the new team is about an excisting team. You know, Double Helix wasn't really known for great games. Then Microsoft came to them. Then they suddenly they had this opportunity to prove themselves. They build an impressive tech demo within weeks. They wrote letters full of passion and history. The result is known: and we got an excellent re-imagination of Killer Instinct. From a developer you wouldn't ever expect it.

Passion is a much more important aspect than gaming communities tend to believe. Humans are working on games. Not studio names. Not mashines. And not CEOs. I can assure you that as a developer myself. Talent is nothing when you are not passionated about the things you do. If they find a team that really wants to do Conker - it will be good.

Passion is great and all but that doesn't equate a good game, and I've seen no evidence to support that Microsoft has the talent to make a game as rigid as Conker or even with the same amount of wit required to have it be consistent (last time they tried to make a witty game with Nuts & Bolts it only amounted to a slew of incredibly cringeworthy fourth wall jokes).

Shiggy · Jul 23, 2014

Hindle said:
What's happening right now at MS is they're refocusing on games, Rare have just laid off their entire Kinect team as well.

Spencer isn't stupid, he knows the value of Conker, Banjo, and I'd assume he knows that making new games in those series, will win Xbox a lot of goodwill. I'm not saying the game is beung made, but I think discussions are ongoing.

Where's that information from? Rare only has a Kinect team and nothing else these days and there's little reason to believe that they will suddenly not focus on casual or Kinect games anymore when that's what their strengths are. It should not come as a surprise that Killer Instinct was not made by Rare Ltd.

Absolutely oen have to remember that there was a time when Nintendo was trying to do something like DKR while MSFT was trying to get Goldeneye64 and the interferance between MSFT and Nintendo is probably why both projects never came out in the state they should have.

DKR still came out. It was just that the handheld team was shut down soon after by Microsoft (yes, it was one of the various restructures for which MGS is famous for), even though it was the most profitable entity (by a mile) at Rare Ltd.

Kampfheld · Jul 23, 2014

NotLiquid said:
The value of Conker is... not a lot. Both Bad Fur Day and Live & Reloaded were commercial failures. They're strictly cult games.

If this is an argument - why is a new Phantom Dust a reality?

Hindle · Jul 23, 2014

Shiggy said:
Where's that information from? Rare only has a Kinect team and nothing else these days and there's little reason to believe that they will suddenly not focus on casual or Kinect games anymore when that's what their strengths are. It should not come as a surprise that Killer Instinct was not made by Rare Ltd.

DKR still came out. It was just that the handheld team was shut down soon after by Microsoft (yes, it was one of the various restructures for which MGS is famous for), even though it was the most profitable entity (by a mile) at Rare Ltd.

The KSR team was just recently laid off, due to the commercial failure of Kinect Sports Rivals. An OXM journalist on a visit to Rare noted Rare were working on up to 3 projects as well, so there was always more then one team there.

As for Conker, if it's brought back, I think it will be handled by Seavour and his studio.

Silky · Jul 23, 2014

MrNyarlathotep said:
I guess you guys think that Conker is fondly remembered for its mechanics and not for being an 'of the moment' zeitgeist parody of current trends.

You clearly said you can't trust fans of the original replicating the original in regards to rare, which simply isn't true. Hell KI and DKCR are testaments to this being false.

jay23 · Jul 23, 2014

Do we know what rare is working on yet?

Alx · Jul 23, 2014

jay23 said:
Do we know what rare is working on yet?

I suppose we'll see something at Gamescom. Not long now.

DedValve · Jul 23, 2014

Phil S. said:
I think a fighting game is an easier plateau to reach and capture the essence of than say, a platformer.

No, it's not. There's a ton of shit that could have gone wrong with Killer Instinct, it's why there was so much pessimism when it was announced that Double Helix, a c-tier team at the time, would be making it.

Mael · Jul 23, 2014

Shiggy said:
DKR still came out. It was just that the handheld team was shut down soon after by Microsoft (yes, it was one of the various restructures for which MGS is famous for), even though it was the most profitable entity (by a mile) at Rare Ltd.

No I'm speaking of another DKR project that Nintendo wanted Monster Games(or Left Field Studio?) to do that in the end was ExciteBots.
They couldn't get the rights to some characters they wanted so the project changed, I read that in anotehr thread here.
I believe the timing was close to when MSFT was trying to get its hands on Goldeneye64 (ATVI meddling certainly helped no one here).
That would explain the Yamauchi-like behaviour from Iwata people alluded to at the time.

And Silky I wouldn't hold DKCR as Retro trying to do what Rare did, it's more Retro's take on DK as a platformer doing their own thing.
DKCR is not a nostalgia trip more than a pretty damn good game.
Trying to use nostalgia should never be the focus of making games anyway or we get shit like Other M.

Doffen · Jul 23, 2014

jay23 said:
Do we know what rare is working on yet?

Phil Spencer tweeted: Rare is focusing on a next game idea, I haven't seen it yet. Team will share next time I visit. Looking forward to seeing ideas.

Kampfheld · Jul 23, 2014

jay23 said:
Do we know what rare is working on yet?

Alx · Jul 23, 2014

I also agree that good fighting games are not an easy thing to replicate. The gameplay can make or break it, and it's a very delicate balance of rules that can be complex, and are tested at all angles by very demanding players.
Of course it's different from the quality of a story, but it's not as easy as slapping a character design and a movelist together and call it a day.

Mael · Jul 23, 2014

Alx said:
I also agree that good fighting games are not an easy thing to replicate. The gameplay can make or break it, and it's a very delicate balance of rules that can be complex, and are tested at all angles by very demanding players.
Of course it's different from the quality of a story, but it's not as easy as slapping a character design and a movelist together and call it a day.

Again, anyone who could make a decent fighter could make a decent KI.
Killer Instinct is not something so unique that on top of making a more than decent game you must be extra careful to miss the feel of the game.
Seriously any other Rare project would probably be harder to make this side of Jetpack.

Shiggy · Jul 23, 2014

Hindle said:
The KSR team was just recently laid off, due to the commercial failure of Kinect Sports Rivals. An OXM journalist on a visit to Rare noted Rare were working on up to 3 projects as well, so there was always more then one team there.

Prior to the launch of KS1, they still had the Viva Pinata team. After that, they put all staff behind KS2 and KSR. The KSR team definitely was not laid off as that would've meant that Rare no longer exists. If they are currently working on 3 projects that either means that those are 3 different prototypes or 3 smaller scale projects. KSR required the entire Rare team, with that lacking contractors as well as with several veterans laid off it's unlikely that they can work on 3 projects of the scale of KSR simultaneously.

So saying that the KSR team was laid off does not make any sense at all. Take a look at the credits of that game and you will see that there was no second or third team at Rare during the development of that title.

Mael said:
No I'm speaking of another DKR project that Nintendo wanted Monster Games(or Left Field Studio?) to do that in the end was ExciteBots.
They couldn't get the rights to some characters they wanted so the project changed, I read that in anotehr thread here.
I believe the timing was close to when MSFT was trying to get its hands on Goldeneye64 (ATVI meddling certainly helped no one here).
That would explain the Yamauchi-like behaviour from Iwata people alluded to at the time.

You are referencing some strange rumour from a rather strange source. Do you really think they wanted to buy the DKR characters whom nobody knows? The last few Donkey Kong racing games (Diddy Kong Pilot, the cancelled Donkey Kong Racing, Donkey Kong Barrel Blast) only featured Kongs. A new Donkey Kong Racing definitely did not fail because they could not get some characters from Microsoft which they sold to them only a few years ago.

DedValve · Jul 23, 2014

Mael said:
Again, anyone who could make a decent fighter could make a decent KI.
Killer Instinct is not something so unique that on top of making a more than decent game you must be extra careful to miss the feel of the game.
Seriously any other Rare project would probably be harder to make this side of Jetpack.

No, thats just not true. I can't really expect Namco to easily make a Marvel vs Capcom 4 that stays true to the fast paced, flashy gameplay, or Askys to make a slower paced, fluid fighter like Virtua Fighter.

Hell no one has managed to recreate the good smash mechanics.

It's not easy and not something that "anyone who could make a decent fighter". Each fighting dev has developed their own identity and style and to switch that radically will more often than not mess things up.

Silky · Jul 23, 2014

Mael said:
Again, anyone who could make a decent fighter could make a decent KI.
Killer Instinct is not something so unique that on top of making a more than decent game you must be extra careful to miss the feel of the game.
Seriously any other Rare project would probably be harder to make this side of Jetpack.

You seriously think Double Helix has a fighting game pedigree? And what do you mean it doesn't have a distinct feel? Even now there's nothing that feels and plays like KI feels.

I mean if anyone can make a fighting game then all of these smash and mortal kombat clones must be on the same caliber as their source material....

MrNyarlathotep · Jul 23, 2014

Silky said:
You clearly said you can't trust fans of the original replicating the original in regards to rare, which simply isn't true. Hell KI and DKCR are testaments to this being false.

Yes, I stand by that statement. The example I gave to back it up are the Telltale point and click adventures based on the Lucasarts originals.

The above quote doesn't change that at all.

EDIT:

Mael said:
No I'm speaking of another DKR project that Nintendo wanted Monster Games(or Left Field Studio?) to do that in the end was ExciteBots.
They couldn't get the rights to some characters they wanted so the project changed, I read that in anotehr thread here.
I believe the timing was close to when MSFT was trying to get its hands on Goldeneye64 (ATVI meddling certainly helped no one here).
That would explain the Yamauchi-like behaviour from Iwata people alluded to at the time.

That's a more recent rumour.

The rumour at the time was that MS went to Nintendo and said they would allow them to put GE64 'as is' on the VC, while the 360 got a full HD remake / online play enabled / modernised controller version for XBLA.

Nintendo told them to fuck off.

Valjean Lafitte · Jul 23, 2014

I have fond memories of laughing my butt off at CBFD, but I also have realistic expectations for a sequel: IF a sequel were to ever be made, it would not only have to live up to everyone's expectations in the humor department, it would actually have to be a good game. I don't think anyone is interested in making just another mediocre platformer with penis jokes.

Mael · Jul 23, 2014

Shiggy said:
You are referencing some strange rumour from a rather strange source. Do you really think they wanted to buy the DKR characters whom nobody knows? The last few Donkey Kong racing games (Diddy Kong Pilot, the cancelled Donkey Kong Racing, Donkey Kong Barrel Blast) only featured Kongs. A new Donkey Kong Racing definitely did not fail because they could not get some characters from Microsoft which they sold to them only a few years ago.

Disregard I can't find the source I want.

DedValve said:
No, thats just not true. I can't really expect Namco to easily make a Marvel vs Capcom 4 that stays true to the fast paced, flashy gameplay, or Askys to make a slower paced, fluid fighter like Virtua Fighter.

Hell no one has managed to recreate the good smash mechanics.

It's not easy and not something that "anyone who could make a decent fighter". Each fighting dev has developed their own identity and style and to switch that radically will more often than not mess things up.

That's true for the game you spoke of, Killer Instinct is really old at this point and was pretty much a blank slate as far as how they could make it.
If any of the devs you gave could have made a decent Mortal Kombat clone they could have made KI3.

Silky said:
You seriously think Double Helix has a fighting game pedigree? And what do you mean it doesn't have a distinct feel? Even now there's nothing that feels and plays like KI feels.

Fighter's History have its own feel to it, that doesn't make it a non SF2 clone.
Seriously KI was a well made game but it's clear that it wasn't that original.

e:

MrNyarlathotep said:
That's a more recent rumour.

The rumour at the time was that MS went to Nintendo and said they would allow them to put GE64 'as is' on the VC, while the 360 got a full HD remake / online play enabled / modernised controller version for XBLA.

Nintendo told them to fuck off.

The more recent rumour would kinda be consistent with this old rumour too.

NotLiquid · Jul 23, 2014

Kampfheld said:
If this is an argument - why is a new Phantom Dust a reality?

I'd argue it's an easier and more profitable venture to make a reality, but this question in general avoids the original point. One oddity doesn't guarantee another one.

REMEMBER CITADEL · Jul 23, 2014

Hindle said:
The KSR team was just recently laid off, due to the commercial failure of Kinect Sports Rivals. An OXM journalist on a visit to Rare noted Rare were working on up to 3 projects as well, so there was always more then one team there.

Yes, there are definitely multiple teams at Rare. One of the job ads that I mentioned earlier specifically states:

Forming a core part of one of our game teams...

Shiggy · Jul 23, 2014

Mael said:
Disregard I can't find the source I want.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=852940&page=1
I think that it was and I'm not sure whether one should really believe that.

REMEMBER CITADEL said:
Yes, there are definitely multiple teams at Rare. One of the job ads that I mentioned earlier specifically states:

So they are making more than one title at a time now? That's interesting news!

Steverulez · Jul 23, 2014

Hindle said:
The KSR team was just recently laid off, due to the commercial failure of Kinect Sports Rivals. An OXM journalist on a visit to Rare noted Rare were working on up to 3 projects as well, so there was always more then one team there.

16 people were laid off, and KSR was most of the studio which was around 150 people~ including contract workers. They said they weren't allowed in 3 barns (of the 4), that doesn't mean they are all working on separate projects.

Mael · Jul 23, 2014

Shiggy said:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=852940&page=1
I think that it was and I'm not sure whether one should really believe that.

Your googlefu is better than mine.
For what it's worth I'd put it on the pile with the MSFT rumour.
It wouldn't be that surprising as Monster games isn't that big to begin with and the events make sense too.
It also wouldn't be the 1rst time a license is used in a pitch to Nintendo either (Man Icarus anyone?).
Actually there's nothing too crazy in that rumour :
Monster games made another racer called ExciteBots that was at one point a DK racing game.
Now the part about a future game is certainly sketchier.

Alpha_eX · Jul 23, 2014

So they're making a full Conker sequel with Project Spark to show off it's capabilities?

Kampfheld · Jul 23, 2014

Alpha_eX said:
So they're making a full Conker sequel with Project Spark to show off it's capabilities?

Salty Hippo · Jul 23, 2014

Multiple game teams yet it took them 4 years to make a sequel to a shovelware kinect game. Not to mention there's absolutely nothing else on the horizon, just these "IDEAS" Spencer keeps mentioning (that not even he knows what they are). Current Rare has to be the least efficient studio in the entire world.

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