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How Call of Duty: WW2 handles swastikas and female soldiers

Angry Fork

Member
Artists aren't morally or legally obligated to make the vision of WWII that you want to see. Please stop advocating for censorship of their intended visions.

You're disingenuously ignoring the reasons for the revisionism in order to make snipey remarks towards right wing people who use "censorship" as a means to push their right wing agenda. That's fine but I'm on the far left so it doesn't apply to me, I don't care.

Obviously studio's can do what they want, I just think it's really dumb. It's sanitization for the sake of advertising. The "we want you to be yourself" thing is a ring around the rosey explanation for what is ultimately a business decision. Please believe no artists have the final say on this billion dollar yearly cash cow.
 
you have flip flopped. You demand your phrase 'historical accuracy' and at the same time say you're ok with the inaccuracies I listed and ok with things like women on the front lines. Either you want 'historical accuracy' with all of it or you don't, can't have it both ways. Unless your only goal here is to see swastikas and not just actual 'historical accuracy' like you've been shouting.

Sure, women on the front lines is a glaring inaccuracy, but I'm all for women getting to enjoy playing a game and not having to choose a male character as their avatar every time. I can actually look past that even though historically speaking, I will admit it does bother me a little; but that I can look past before I can get over censoring historical iconography just because it offends someone. Women on the front lines and African American females on the Axis frontline is insanely innacurate, but like I said, it's allowing everyone to enjoy playing. I don't see how censoring the iconography and logos of the German Armed Forces is worse than having women as playable on the front lines in World War II. That would seem to offend people more than the iconography, but yet, it remains.

Who is we?

We, as in the population of most of the world.
 
Communists and socialists defeated the Nazi's and were the vanguard for every major anti-racist, anti-sexist movement in every country throughout the 20th century, and still to this day.

Conflating all socialists with communists and all communists with Lenin, Stalin and their ideological heirs is questionable, but it depends which history of time you're talking about. Communists were actively helping the Nazis in 1939-1940. They gave huge quantities of raw materials to them when they needed it most, signed a non-aggression pact with both the Nazis and separately with Imperial Japan, they jointly invaded Poland with the Nazis, invaded or threatened to invade several countries in Eastern Europe in order to acquire territorial concessions, and instructed communist parties of the world to oppose the war against the Nazis. Which they diligently did despite the hardcore ideological whiplash it entailed. The USSR never matched it's egalitarian rhetoric, making hasty retreats on women's rights as soon as they realized they wanted to encourage population growth, never really trying to do anything about rampant racism against central Asians, Muslims and Siberian natives despite theoretically being opposed to racism, and of course their ongoing awkward relationship with the idea of non-totalitarian rule.

Communist parties around the world only regained some kind of moral high ground after they divorced themselves from the USSR, which they didn't really do until the Cold War kicked into full swing and even then they were engaged in frequent apologetics for the USSR. Socialist movements more broadly did have an often awkward relationship as "fellow travelers", but at least could distance themselves more easily from the atrocities of the USSR and more openly implement their policies inside the framework of a democratic system. It's a lot easier to say that the socialist movements were a strong positive force than it is to say that the Communist ones were.

Getting back on topic a bit though, a hammer-and-sickle is probably just as upsetting as a swastika for somebody living in the Baltic states, being as they were grievously mistreated by people flying both of those flags in sequential order. The fact that there were also euro-communist movements in the 70's that weren't Stalinist isn't really going to make that issue go away. Personally I'm in favour of including both symbols in my historically themed videogames, but I can also see a fair degree in asymmetry in the way that people want to sweep Nazi symbology under a rug, but are pretty happy to have all of these videogames starring Soviet soldiers flying the red flag and just not commenting on all the heinous shit they were doing before, during and after the Eastern front opened up or really caring that we're only 26 years removed from the period where a dozen or so states in Europe and Central Asia were living under the oppressive thumb of their regime.
 
Who is we?

Well me personally for instance. And yes most people alive today.

My grandma fled from germany during ww2 and helped the english translating german documents and more.

I am very grateful for every allied soldier, civilian and anyone who stood against the nazi regime in any way they could. If we had not won that war, we could very well be living ( well not me, many of us wouldnt be alive ) in a Nazi ruled world that mostly speaks German.

Had Hitler had his way, he would not have stopped at anything.

Edit

Great post by ThoseDeafMutes
 

Nepenthe

Member
You're disingenuously ignoring the reasons for the revisionism in order to make snipey remarks towards right wing people who use "censorship" as a means to push their right wing agenda. That's fine but I'm on the far left so it doesn't apply to me, I don't care.

I'm ignoring the reasons people are against this because they're up in arms about a franchise that was never about historical accuracy, and also because they keep misusing the term censorship in an ethical context. Also, claims about censorship in the context of games tend to just be a gamer thing; I've seen otherwise left-leaning people bitch about the inclusion of women and black people in games because of "artist intent" or whatever the hot phrase of the day is to describe their discomfort.

However, I agree with Sledgehammer's reasoning that it's a smart idea- particularly in these trying times where Nazis are getting both right and leftwing support- to appeal more to CoD's general sanitation of WWII and not give them anymore fodder to be shitheads by putting Nazis in a position where they could potentially win a battle in multiplayer and be rewarded as a result. Fuck a historical accuracy-- they don't deserve the satisfaction. It's also the reason why I am gleeful the Nazis are getting riled up about Wolfenstein.

Obviously studio's can do what they want, I just think it's really dumb. It's sanitization for the sake of advertising. The "we want you to be yourself" thing is a ring around the rosey explanation for what is ultimately a business decision. Please believe no artists have the final say on this billion dollar yearly cash cow.

Welcome to AAA gaming, where literally every product has to pass through some level of corporate oversight to get made and thus just about every single AAA game you've ever bought has been "censored." However, to say the artists had absolutely no say in this whatsoever and imply all of them are lying about their intent is quite conspiratorial.
 

DNAbro

Member
I'm surprised there is any controversy about this tbh. Rather have customization options than historical accuracy in CoD multiplayer.
 

Accoun

Member
Same with Battlefield 1942.

They used this flag:



I just find it funny that NOW's it's a problem.

Eh, I remember it was brought up (as a minor side-point) in at least one place in local magazines with the same "sanitizing history" arguments - although I think they noted it wasn't exclusive to Battlefield. Maybe it was only that one specific writer? Not sure if it was widespread, since I didn't follow international sites/forums at the time.
Although for whatever reason I thought they were using the modern German flag (I blame the fact that it was very small on the HUD).

I'll admit that seeing many black/female Wehrmacht soldiers feels strange as of now (I assume it's part of the player customization, so not sure how many people are actually gonna pick them), but at least the devs are pretty open about not caring about accuracy in MP so I guess don't care that much - I don't think BF1 devs were.
That being said, I'm not a fan of gameplay leftovers from the Modern Warfare and later, but that's not the topic about it.
 
I looked around the internet recently and noticed that this whole swastika and female soldiers thing is pretty controversial. And again, all of the arguments all have to do with historical accuracy. Of course, all of the language and phrasings is all highly negative towards "SJWs" and people claiming that"women are annoying."

This is some petty ass shit. People are fine with all the other absurd and crazier inaccuracies of this game, but women and Nazi imagery is what sparks outrage?

Sorry, but I cannot see this as anything but complete alt right and misogyny bullshit. Who fucking cares? It's fucking Call of Duty multiplayer.
 
dde68Nj.png
 
Now I want alien laser cannons to shoot U.S. paratroopers with for my black, female Axis trooper. Please please please! It's all about the funnnnn after all :).
 

Eylos

Banned
Women fighting ww2 existed, battalion of death the same of ww1 that will be used on battlefield 1. They were badasses
Edit: gif i posted on page 2 of the sniper lyudimila
tumblr_no0vg5tDc11u3dnato4_r2_500.gif
 
I looked around the internet recently and noticed that this whole swastika and female soldiers thing is pretty controversial. And again, all of the arguments all have to do with historical accuracy. Of course, all of the language and phrasings is all highly negative towards "SJWs" and people claiming that"women are annoying."

This is some petty ass shit. People are fine with all the other absurd and crazier inaccuracies of this game, but women and Nazi imagery is what sparks outrage?

Sorry, but I cannot see this as anything but complete alt right and misogyny bullshit. Who fucking cares? It's fucking Call of Duty multiplayer.

Misogynists and alt-right/neo-nazi people are some of the most violently offended people ever.
 

horkrux

Member
I looked around the internet recently and noticed that this whole swastika and female soldiers thing is pretty controversial. And again, all of the arguments all have to do with historical accuracy. Of course, all of the language and phrasings is all highly negative towards "SJWs" and people claiming that"women are annoying."

This is some petty ass shit. People are fine with all the other absurd and crazier inaccuracies of this game, but women and Nazi imagery is what sparks outrage?

Sorry, but I cannot see this as anything but complete alt right and misogyny bullshit. Who fucking cares? It's fucking Call of Duty multiplayer.

I don't know about you, but I think it's pretty crazy to f.e. see German female soldiers in a WW2 game. That's usually reserved for games like Wolfenstein. It's basically the same like with black soldiers fighting for the Germans in BF1.

Not sure why 'historical accuracy' is a do or die thing. It's always a matter of preference or to what personal degree you can suspend your disbelief. Yet people keep bringing up that you can do all kinds of crazy shit in these games or that you get to use weapons that never made it out of testing. Why? It's not for you to decide what people perceive as being too much. If this doesn't bother them but the other stuff does, than that's how it is. No reason to belittle it by keep bringing out that straw man or calling them misogynists. You can't deny that it IS a pretty big change. It's unfortunate that it's about gender, but I don't really recall any outcries about female soldiers in modern military shooters or the other futuristic CoDs, so labelling everyone as misogynistic here seems kinda off base (depending on where you look of course, but you're talking in a general sense anyway, so it doesn't matter).
 

Kinyou

Member
Women fighting ww2 existed, battalion of death the same of ww1 that will be used on battlefield 1. They were badasses
Edit: gif i posted on page 2 of the sniper lyudimila
tumblr_no0vg5tDc11u3dnato4_r2_500.gif
In that regard I actually like BF1s approach a lot more since it highlights those specific soldiers and that russians had a battalion like that.

Show those differences between the nations instead of making them all the same.
 

rolandss

Member
Authenticity arguments aside I just don't like the idea of censoring iconography like this. It makes me feel like a child incapable of handling the subject matter.

I understand the arguments, especially the e-sports one, but just make it optional.
 

jimboton

Member
So is religion, love, fights for freedom, culture clashes and many more. But while each of the reasons have two sides, nazism doesn't. It is singular in its hate and rhetoric. Pretending like it the two concepts are even is disingenuous. But the truth is that the nazi symbol is banned almost everywhere while the hammer and sickle are banned only in countries that ceased to be socialist. It still is accepted in many places.

Thank you!
 
I don't know about you, but I think it's pretty crazy to f.e. see German female soldiers in a WW2 game. That's usually reserved for games like Wolfenstein. It's basically the same like with black soldiers fighting for the Germans in BF1.

Not sure why 'historical accuracy' is a do or die thing. It's always a matter of preference or to what personal degree you can suspend your disbelief. Yet people keep bringing up that you can do all kinds of crazy shit in these games or that you get to use weapons that never made it out of testing. Why? It's not for you to decide what people perceive as being too much. If this doesn't bother them but the other stuff does, than that's how it is. No reason to belittle it by keep bringing out that straw man or calling them misogynists. You can't deny that it IS a pretty big change. It's unfortunate that it's about gender, but I don't really recall any outcries about female soldiers in modern military shooters or the other futuristic CoDs, so labelling everyone as misogynistic here seems kinda off base (depending on where you look of course, but you're talking in a general sense anyway, so it doesn't matter).

It's not a big change. Like you said, previous CoD games have had female playable soldiers. Many multiplayer games have the option to play as a female. Battlefield 1 is gonna have female soldiers.

latest

5764013-3506922541-women.jpg


You can absolutely belittle people when their reasoning is bad. The backlash is coming from misogynist circles, so it's fair to assume that.
 

horkrux

Member
It's not a big change. Like you said, previous CoD games have had female playable soldiers. Many multiplayer games have the option to play as a female. Battlefield 1 is gonna have female soldiers.

latest

5764013-3506922541-women.jpg


You can absolutely belittle people when their reasoning is bad. The backlash is coming from misogynist circles, so it's fair to assume that.

Yes. BF1 is gonna have female soldiers, because the Russians actually had such a battalion. What does this have to do with female German soldiers? I explicitly mentioned the context of the game and for a WW game, it actually is a big change.
You belittle such reasoning, but you seem to be ignoring my arguments entirely.
 
Because Facism is evil.
And Socialism, in its purest form, is about equality.

I don't get this argument. The swastika itself wasn't invented by the nazis and in it's purest form it represents many different things. It's band because everyone associates it with Nazis and likewise everyone associates the hammer sickle with the Soviet union. Either ban them both or keep them both. It's hypocrisy any other way in my opinion
 
Yes. BF1 is gonna have female soldiers, because the Russians actually had such a battalion. What does this have to do with female German soldiers? I explicitly mentioned the context of the game and for a WW game, it actually is a big change.
You belittle such reasoning, but you seem to be ignoring my arguments entirely.
If Battlefield 1 did it based on no history of female soldiers in WW1, it should still be fine. On the point of WW games, sure it's a change, but is it a change worth fighting against? That's what people reacting negatively to this news are doing. Not saying "oh it's surely a change but I'm totally fine with it". Again, pining for historical accuracy in a multiplayer game just seems fruitless. The only thing left missing is a petition on change.org to have female soldiers removed from a WW game to show plainly that people are violently offended by female inclusion.
 

MsVariant

Member
I don't get this argument. The swastika itself wasn't invented by the nazis and in it's purest form it represents many different things. It's band because everyone associates it with Nazis and likewise everyone associates the hammer sickle with the Soviet union. Either ban them both or keep them both. It's hypocrisy any other way in my opinion

Hammer and Sickle is not exclusive to USSR
Swastika in that direction, on white and red is exclusively Nazi

k?
 

NJDEN

Member
This post is more of a joke and not meant to be taken seriously, but what about a toggle for historical accuracy.

Off: Avatar regardless of faction can be any race or gender, swastikas are removed, weapon-camo skins and after market announcer packs enabled.

On: All avatar appearance reflect historical policies, swastikas are enabled, weapon-camo skins are disabled and the announcer is an old man with an English accent.

Obviously two trains of thought are at play, and I can see where both sides are coming from. If player hit-boxes are the same across male/female character models then having a toggle might work... Although technically I have no idea how easy or hard that would be to implement.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
This post is more of a joke and not meant to be taken seriously, but what about a toggle for historical accuracy.

Off: Avatar regardless of faction can be any race or gender, swastikas are removed, weapon-camo skins and after market announcer packs enabled.

On: All avatar appearance reflect historical policies, swastikas are enabled, weapon-camo skins are disabled and the announcer is an old man with an English accent.

Obviously two trains of thought are at play, and I can see where both sides are coming from. If player hit-boxes are the same across male/female character models then having a toggle might work... Although technically I have no idea how easy or hard that would be to implement.
More work for the devs that could be spent elsewhere.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
I'm watching an episode of Hogan's Heroes with some attractive female Gestapo agents. If it's good enough for Hogan's Heroes, it's good enough for me.
 
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