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Competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee Discussion Thread

A

Azure J

Member
theprodigy said:
need to bring a Rosalina type character to spread the salt
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Heh, a puppeteer was already in the works. I was thinking of having both a puppet and puppetmaster type as well as a Stand/Persona type. :lol

Oh shit, the Ice Climbers are definitely another archetype that should be on that list.
 
T

Tomohawk

Member
Azure J said:
Personally, I think as though a platform fighter should have a Fox, Falco, Falcon, Puff, Marth and Peach analogue to start things off with. Similar to how every traditional fighting game after Street Fighter has its Ryu/Ken/Chun Li/Zangief/Guile, I figure a few of these guys have move sets or extra attributes that are just too iconic to the platform fighter design not to be represented. That and their overall popularity in Melee would probably result in having good "basic" or immediately understood design
Click to expand...

Basically what you said but Luigi for his drunken style and Donkey Kong and Ganondorf for 5 hit kills.
 
S

Shimesaba

Member
Daouzin said:
Do you know when it will be announced now?

With EVO being 5 months away, I'd be pretty excited for another big tournament in the halfway point between now and then.
Click to expand...
Papapaint said on Twitter that the announcement would probably be coming next week instead. (Probably around the same time, during VGBC's weekly Smash 4 stream.)

Azure J said:
So hypothetical set of questions for Competitive Melee-GAF/Smash-GAF/Design-GAF:

You are making a Melee-like platform fighter (with your own unique ideas here and there of course) and you begin thinking of the roster. You're aiming for something modest in number (16-24 characters) and begin brainstorming the general idea behind the combatants.

- Based on Melee, what archetypes would you immediately think of covering?
- What fighting styles/archetypes would you begin to think of after the previous that either didn't exist in Melee or still don't exist in the grand scheme of Smash at current?
- What would you consider an optimal number for this pet project?
Click to expand...

I'd aim for 16 characters. Try to cover at least Melee's Top 8 (Fox through IC's) plus Mario and Samus (Melee Samus is completely distinct in playstyle from any other Smash character). I would add a proper Ninja-like character, since Sheik doesn't really fit that archetype, and I would recast Sheik as a contortionist/weirdo character like Faust (GG) or Voldo (SC). I would also add a heavyweight (taking attributes from Melee Ganon and PM Bowser, I guess), but that character would probably be the hardest to balance.
 
K

KimiNewt

Scored 3/100 on an Exam
Just recounting the tales of the "local community" (I think at its height it was like 20 people playing Melee).
I've gotten back into Melee recently (I played casually with friends when I was in the army) and wanted to try reviving the community a bit. I knew a guy that was one of the best in the country and met some guys via smashboards.

We had our first meetup last week at my apartment and it was a blast, though the other two are more focused on Smash 4.

Right now I'm spreading the word, and I got a lot of requests to join our meet-ups (almost all by Smash 4 players though), but I'm limiting it to six people at a time at the moment (my apartment can only contain so many people..).
We have a meetup set for tomorrow and next week, and I'll try rotating the members, should be fun!

Should probably focus on getting better. I main Marth in Melee, currently just trying to master SHFFLing and wavedashing, being able to perform it almost every time in training but not much in an actual game.
In Smash 4 I play mainly Greninja, just because I like how he moves. I'm absolutely terrible in Smash 4 and didn't even take one set our entire meetup.
 
D

Daouzin

Member
KimiNewt said:
In Smash 4 I play mainly Greninja, just because I like how he moves. I'm absolutely terrible in Smash 4 and didn't even take one set our entire meetup.
Click to expand...

Ouch, I'd recommend an easier character until you get into the swing of things. Since Fast falling is important in Melee and punished for in Smash 4 I'd also avoid playing any characters you play in Melee. That's just asking for trouble.
 
S

Scythesurge

Member
Daouzin said:
Ouch, I'd recommend an easier character until you get into the swing of things. Since Fast falling is important in Melee and punished for in Smash 4 I'd also avoid playing any characters you play in Melee. That's just asking for trouble.
Click to expand...

I feel the same, playing any of my Melee characters in Smash 4 feels so weird that it throws off my execution in both games. I'm more comfortable just playing different characters in the different games, though some of my friends have no problems using characters in both games so it's really a personal thing.
 
P

Pappasman

Member
Azure J said:
So hypothetical set of questions for Competitive Melee-GAF/Smash-GAF/Design-GAF:

You are making a Melee-like platform fighter (with your own unique ideas here and there of course) and you begin thinking of the roster. You're aiming for something modest in number (16-24 characters) and begin brainstorming the general idea behind the combatants.

- Based on Melee, what archetypes would you immediately think of covering?
- What fighting styles/archetypes would you begin to think of after the previous that either didn't exist in Melee or still don't exist in the grand scheme of Smash at current?
- What would you consider an optimal number for this pet project?

Personally, I think as though a platform fighter should have a Fox, Falco, Falcon, Puff, Marth and Peach analogue to start things off with. Similar to how every traditional fighting game after Street Fighter has its Ryu/Ken/Chun Li/Zangief/Guile, I figure a few of these guys have move sets or extra attributes that are just too iconic to the platform fighter design not to be represented. That and their overall popularity in Melee would probably result in having good "basic" or immediately understood design

As for fighting styles I'd explore, everyone should know I love me some swords and as such, I'd have a few variations of swordplay in the roster (fencer, knight, heavy/large swordsman/berserker & Japanese Iaijutsu). I've also been fond of the idea of a "tuck and roll" run & gunner a la Elphelt in Guilty Gear.

Finally, I'm thinking 20-24, or sticking near upper end of that limit would be pretty cool for a new property to do. Enough characters that the match ups are varied but easy enough on the potential workload.

As this is the Competitive Melee Discussion thread and not the "theory design thread", I'm trying not to go full hog with concepts I've actually planned out or thought of. I figured this would still be an interesting exercise though to see what people think of Melee's cast.
Click to expand...

I pretty much agree, especially about Fox and Falco. The shine is probably my favorite move in any fighting game just because of its utility for movement, pressure, combos, etc. Having one character with a horizontal shine and another with a vertical shine create similar characters but with incredibly different tools that explore different areas of the same idea. I love it.

I'm also a big ICs fan so I think that they would be awesome as well. IC mechanics are my favorite for the "doll" archetype.

One thing I would like to see is a strong Link type character. A defensive character that can control space with multiple types of projectiles/items with also having some nice grab setups and a good "get off me" move with the spin attack.

There are some cool unique characters like Yoshi, Samus, and Luigi, but I think an original game should try to make unique fighters with their own crazy style. I'd like to see a character that can put out a long lasting projectile that slowly moves across the screen like Dhalism's U1 in SF4. I think that could lead to some pretty cool setups. PM 3.2 Zelda's fireball mechanics are amazing as well.
 
P

Peléo

Member
Anth0ny said:
Yeah, he's definitely getting back to his greatness. But there was a period of time a few years back where he was capable of taking sets off Hbox and PPMD.

He used to go to school with me. And I used to take game off him.
his Pichu. with my Marth

Vwins doesn't travel to the US as much as he used to. In fact, it's been a while since he's shown up to a Toronto tournament. He's probably top 20 in the world, but still at that level where he just gets demolished by the gods.

Armada probably didn't go Fox because he knows he's still the best Peach in the world... by far. He's not losing the ditto matchup anytime soon. I think his Fox is more for the Fox and Puff matchups, which can get very difficult for Peach at the top level.
Click to expand...

Top20 in the world? Didn't expect he was this good. I expect he was at MacD level at best.

Yeah, i agree with you. And I think it also depends on the Fox. I don't expect him to go ditto against Sfat or Colbol (although the last matches were close).
 
F

Fugu

Member
Anth0ny said:
Yeah, he's definitely getting back to his greatness. But there was a period of time a few years back where he was capable of taking sets off Hbox and PPMD.

He used to go to school with me. And I used to take game off him.
his Pichu. with my Marth

Vwins doesn't travel to the US as much as he used to. In fact, it's been a while since he's shown up to a Toronto tournament. He's probably top 20 in the world, but still at that level where he just gets demolished by the gods.

Armada probably didn't go Fox because he knows he's still the best Peach in the world... by far. He's not losing the ditto matchup anytime soon. I think his Fox is more for the Fox and Puff matchups, which can get very difficult for Peach at the top level.
Click to expand...
Man, I didn't know you were from Toronto. We should play sometime.
 
F

FZZ

Banned
Daouzin said:
Ouch, I'd recommend an easier character until you get into the swing of things. Since Fast falling is important in Melee and punished for in Smash 4 I'd also avoid playing any characters you play in Melee. That's just asking for trouble.
Click to expand...

As weird and as different as they are Yoshi transfers over for me pretty well in both games.

Only difference is I crouch a lot more and rely on my bair a lot less in Melee.
 
C

Cronox

Banned
Azure J said:
So hypothetical set of questions for Competitive Melee-GAF/Smash-GAF/Design-GAF:

You are making a Melee-like platform fighter (with your own unique ideas here and there of course) and you begin thinking of the roster. You're aiming for something modest in number (16-24 characters) and begin brainstorming the general idea behind the combatants.

- Based on Melee, what archetypes would you immediately think of covering?
Click to expand...

How about an archetype that no iteration of smash has fully attempted - the grappler character. Bowser is probably the closest but he's still miles away from characters like Zangief or Iron Tager (so satisfying to play as...). Smash doesn't represent this archetype at all.
 
S

Shimesaba

Member
Anth0ny said:
Also, a few things Sheik players aren't doing. I'm taking notes.
Click to expand...

Lots of good tips in here. He doesn't go into depth on tech-chasing, but someone posted in the FB thread that Sheik players can also try to learn to reaction tech-chase (dthrows on fastfallers) by following the camera's movement rather than trying to respond to the techroll animation. I'm definitely planning to try that out, and mess around with boost grabbing people out of their approaches like the guide mentions. Never thought to use it that way.
 
M

Moonlight

Banned
Azure J said:
So hypothetical set of questions for Competitive Melee-GAF/Smash-GAF/Design-GAF:

You are making a Melee-like platform fighter (with your own unique ideas here and there of course) and you begin thinking of the roster. You're aiming for something modest in number (16-24 characters) and begin brainstorming the general idea behind the combatants.

- Based on Melee, what archetypes would you immediately think of covering?
- What fighting styles/archetypes would you begin to think of after the previous that either didn't exist in Melee or still don't exist in the grand scheme of Smash at current?
- What would you consider an optimal number for this pet project?

Personally, I think as though a platform fighter should have a Fox, Falco, Falcon, Puff, Marth and Peach analogue to start things off with. Similar to how every traditional fighting game after Street Fighter has its Ryu/Ken/Chun Li/Zangief/Guile, I figure a few of these guys have move sets or extra attributes that are just too iconic to the platform fighter design not to be represented. That and their overall popularity in Melee would probably result in having good "basic" or immediately understood design

As for fighting styles I'd explore, everyone should know I love me some swords and as such, I'd have a few variations of swordplay in the roster (fencer, knight, heavy/large swordsman/berserker & Japanese Iaijutsu). I've also been fond of the idea of a "tuck and roll" run & gunner a la Elphelt in Guilty Gear.

Finally, I'm thinking 20-24, or sticking near upper end of that limit would be pretty cool for a new property to do. Enough characters that the match ups are varied but easy enough on the potential workload.

As this is the Competitive Melee Discussion thread and not the "theory design thread", I'm trying not to go full hog with concepts I've actually planned out or thought of. I figured this would still be an interesting exercise though to see what people think of Melee's cast.
Click to expand...
I think you've covered most of the 'essential' archetypes, but honestly I'd still stick a Sheik in there. She's just as iconic to the series (like seriously who would give a fuck about Sheik without Smash/Melee) as any of the characters you've already mentioned, but there's something so powerful about her movement and precision (and stylishness!) that should have a place in whatever platform fighter derivative is ever made.
Also no Zelda would give her a useful Side-B and Down-B. :v

I also think there could be a reasonably good case for Yoshi. I mean, Amsa is pretty much my entire reason for this, so it's a bit emotional, but I think what a lot of the more popular characters lack, what Yoshi has in spades, are a lot of powerful defensive tools. It's a niche that no one but Yoshi fills, and I think would round out the existing list quite a bit.

I am right there with you on including more swordplay in the roster, so I don't feel the need to talk too much about that, but I've really not been able to get it out of my mind that a boxing character, or well, a Little Mac, would be cool to see in a faster, more momentum-oriented play environment. That is, a fast, opportunistic, incredibly grounded character with a horrendously strong punish game. I just think the contrast he adds is nice - we've got a Jiggs, who always likes being in the air, and then you've got a Mac, who really likes the terra firma.

As for a more unique character concept, I've always liked the idea of a character with a heavy focus on 'item play'. Peach has her turnips, sure, but I think items are inherently an interesting, unique part about the series, and the fact that it (understandably) doesn't cross streams much with typical competitive play is something I've always found a bit of a shame. A character that could pull out and use items in a much more controlled way could be interesting, IMO. Maybe something like Robin, only the Levin Sword would be treated as an item at all times.

actually fuck it ADD ROBIN TO MELEE
 
T

theprodigy

Member
Scythesurge said:
I feel the same, playing any of my Melee characters in Smash 4 feels so weird that it throws off my execution in both games. I'm more comfortable just playing different characters in the different games, though some of my friends have no problems using characters in both games so it's really a personal thing.
Click to expand...

that moment when you down B in Melee with Sheik thinking you're throwing out a bouncing fish
lol
 
E

emb

Member
theprodigy said:
that moment when you down B in Melee with Sheik thinking you're throwing out a bouncing fish
lol
Click to expand...
I can't play Sheik in Melee any more now. I'm too used to the way her Smash 4 fair works. And bouncing fish. And how Sheik works with the edge mechanics. And the changes to charging needles/aerial needles.

I've never been able to play Marth in any of the games post-Melee though (well, PM aside). Way too many habits ingrained in me. The Brawl and Smash 4 versions of him are too calm.
 
P

Peléo

Member
Azure J said:
So hypothetical set of questions for Competitive Melee-GAF/Smash-GAF/Design-GAF:

You are making a Melee-like platform fighter (with your own unique ideas here and there of course) and you begin thinking of the roster. You're aiming for something modest in number (16-24 characters) and begin brainstorming the general idea behind the combatants.

- Based on Melee, what archetypes would you immediately think of covering?
- What fighting styles/archetypes would you begin to think of after the previous that either didn't exist in Melee or still don't exist in the grand scheme of Smash at current?
- What would you consider an optimal number for this pet project?

Personally, I think as though a platform fighter should have a Fox, Falco, Falcon, Puff, Marth and Peach analogue to start things off with. Similar to how every traditional fighting game after Street Fighter has its Ryu/Ken/Chun Li/Zangief/Guile, I figure a few of these guys have move sets or extra attributes that are just too iconic to the platform fighter design not to be represented. That and their overall popularity in Melee would probably result in having good "basic" or immediately understood design

As for fighting styles I'd explore, everyone should know I love me some swords and as such, I'd have a few variations of swordplay in the roster (fencer, knight, heavy/large swordsman/berserker & Japanese Iaijutsu). I've also been fond of the idea of a "tuck and roll" run & gunner a la Elphelt in Guilty Gear.

Finally, I'm thinking 20-24, or sticking near upper end of that limit would be pretty cool for a new property to do. Enough characters that the match ups are varied but easy enough on the potential workload.
Click to expand...

Platform fighters have so much potential in exploring different styles. I really enjoy trappers and zoners, so characters like Snake and Duck Hunt really appeal to me, that is an archetype I would probably explore. I would love to create a Sniper type as well. Lots of ranged weapons, lack of combos and some defensive options. Mobile-projectile based characters, like Young Link, also appeal to me.

I am surprised by how didn't Sakurai include swinging mechanics to ZSS or Toon Link. Being able to use the platforms as Hookshot/whip spots to move around would create interting interactions.
 
A

Anth0ny

Member
CEZPeCz.jpg
 
D

Daouzin

Member
FZZpure said:
As weird and as different as they are Yoshi transfers over for me pretty well in both games.

Only difference is I crouch a lot more and rely on my bair a lot less in Melee.
Click to expand...

I can see that. Yoshi actually seems to carry over some decently similar characteristics, but I imagine at high level it'd be hard to go back and fourth. Hope Amsa focuses on Melee Yoshi and sticks to GreNinja in Smash 4. I love his GreNinja
 
D

Daouzin

Member
Going to an AZ weekly in just a little bit. Not sure how well my Fox will do since I've always played Ganon and haven't entered since before EVO last year, but I guess we will find out in a little bit. If anything gets recorded I'll post the link.
 
T

TrickRoom

Member
Just found this thread. Great stuff in the OP.

Though it would be nice to organize it better so people don't get info-dumped at the start. Maybe put the beginner's guide stuff at the top?
 
C

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
Nothing1016 said:
The meta keeps evolving:

https://twitter.com/kadano/status/571260128542007296

This is hilarious. 20XX is real. RPS for port priority will take over our cherished game. Lol
Click to expand...

Some players already forgo RPS for stage strikes in favor of port priority. They let the other player strike first and get the port of their choice.

Wouldn't be surprised if the RPS rule changes to include something like that eventually. RPS winner can either strike first or opt for port priority, or something like that.
 
P

Pappasman

Member
We made it ya'll. Melee is GAF's 5th best game of its generation. It also won best fighting game of that gen too. Did any of you get a chance to vote?
 
C

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
My brother is definitely going to be better than me soon. We've recently started playing Melee along with PM and it looks like he is settling on Falco. Doesn't want to play low tier hero and main Roy in both games, and I'm surprised he didn't stick with Luigi or Marth.

He's already multishining and practicing pillar combos. And he's only been messing with Falco for like 3 days...

He does get to practice a lot though. Lot more time for that when you are in school than when you have a full time job.
 
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