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Mass_Pincup · Sep 24, 2017

ClosingADoor said:
What exactly is a wrongful firing in this case? Because over here you need to document a ton of files and stuff, and for small business that can be unworkable. Same with stuff like getting sick. I know people need protection, but as a small business the cost of paying someone their salary for years + a replacement can be a huge burden. Of course there is insurance for that stuff, but that is again added costs. Some limits on these things are OK, because otherwise especially small business can not hire people when they need to.

Would things like firing for sexuality or race fall under this, or are there other procedures for that to then sue the company?

It's when you can't provide any reason for the firing. Like for exemple if you have a salesman and you ask him to sell 10 products a day (that would be your proof so you would need it documented) and he repeatedly fail to reach that mark you can fire him. Now with we take the same situation but the company never asked him to sell a certain amount of stuff, never told him that he had to and just decide to fire you because they décided one day that you're not doing enough then that would be considered a wrongful firing.

I don't think that discrimination would fall under this but I'm really not sure.

In France it's not the company whose paying the salary of a sick employee, its the state through our healthcare.

kirblar said:
There are plenty of valid reasons to fire someone that are not going to show up as "directly affecting the productivity" on a balance sheet.

I never talked about a balance sheet, any written company paper showing that the employee is a negative to the company is sufficient proof.

A warning showing that he's not doing something good enough can be used as proof for example.

°°ToMmY°° · Sep 24, 2017

Labor reforms are needed, same here in italy.

We have people stealing on the job getting reinstated by labor judges here (recent one, a guy stole 15000 euros, got fired, judge reintegrated him and forced the company to pay him the one year of salary he didnt receive by being unemplyed).

Its also the reason here in italy less and less people are supporting unions. When they defend thiefs and labor judges put them back in their places people get quite pissed. Too pro-workers laws and workers abuse them, too pro business laws and business abuse them, you need to find a good balance and right now both italy and france are too pro labor which means newly hired guys get an underpaid temp job cause they have to compensate for all the benefits and fuckery of the untouchable old guard.

Btw, all the nordic countries like sweden, norway and similar have much much more liberal labor laws than italy and france, you can google flexicurity (the term for their labor ideals) and see for yourself.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexicurity

jackissocool · Sep 24, 2017

Chairman Yang said:
The long-term plan of "neoliberal politics" has lifted literally hundreds of millions out of poverty in India, China, and other parts of Asia.

I wouldn't want France to become like the US, but some labour reforms are absolutely justified. As a communist, I'm surprised you're against them, actually. Don't you want the entire edifice of capitalism to collapse or something? It's a win-win. If you're wrong, people will be better off. If you're right, your communist utopia will be ever closer to being instated!

cool this is definitely a good faith argument

Orniletter · Sep 24, 2017

entremet said:
Another wolf in sheeps clothing, but better than LaPen, sucky choices.

This is precisely what he promised to do and what the country needs. Germany went through a similar set of reforms in the mid 2000s and made it out significantly stonger. The unemployment figures literally speak for themselves:

(the reforms started in 2003)

jackissocool said:
man Macron is such a piece of shit

shoulda been Melenchon

Yep, should have voted for the hard left uncompromising politician, who would have booted France out of the EU if it wouldn't have changed to his demands, which would have lead to destabilization of the entire continent (and everything that would have entailed). Nope.
Edit: Yikes.

Relaxed Muscle · Sep 24, 2017

Orniletter said:
This is precisely what he promised to do and what the country needs. Germany went through a similar set of reforms in the mid 2000s and made it out significantly stonger. The unemployment figures literally speak for themselves:

(the reforms started in 2003)

...Germany went through a similar set of reforms in the mid 2000s and made it out significantly stonger...

For the wealthy maybe....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/30/low-paid-germans-mini-jobs

Radical reform of the jobs market launched a decade ago has left around a quarter of the workforce in low-paid, insecure and part-time employment, belying the impression of an economic miracle with a flawless jobs success story that has become the envy of the world.

A minijob is any form of employment with an average monthly payment of no more than €450 (previously €400)
Minijobs are typically cleaning and waiting jobs, but can also come from agencies, startups and larger corporations looking for part-time professional help
7.5 million Germans work minijobs (BfA statistics)
The majority of minijobbers receive less than €7 per hour (Boeckler)
58% of Germany's working poor (earning less than €5 an hour) work minijobs (Boeckler)

Jon Carter · Sep 24, 2017

I feel like France has it pretty good politically if the big controversy at the moment is the president moving forward with a reform he ran his campaign on that is risky but well-intentioned.

And I had to try and find a job a few years ago at 24. I failed. The unemployment rate for people my age was 25%. Instead, I worked from home as an independent contractor for an American company.

Golden_Pigeon · Sep 24, 2017

People need to start to understand that you can't just go back to the unemployment level of the "Trentes Glorieuses", France is not a productive country anymore, all the factories have moved out.

Pleasing the ruling class by shrinking workers protection ad nauseam won't do nothing but extend the harshness of the situation of the young working class. Most of French economic activity is reduced to services.

Both Mélenchon and Macron approach are wrongs and dead-ends. We must adapt the economy to the new realities, changing the work ethics and taking into account the robotization of the workforce and the delocalization that occurred massively thirty years ago.

Golden_Pigeon · Sep 24, 2017

°°ToMmY°°;249788958 said:
Labor reforms are needed, same here in italy.

We have people stealing on the job getting reinstated by labor judges here (recent one, a guy stole 15000 euros, got fired, judge reintegrated him and forced the company to pay him the one year of salary he didnt receive by being unemplyed).

Its also the reason here in italy less and less people are supporting unions. When they defend thiefs and labor judges put them back in their places people get quite pissed. Too pro-workers laws and workers abuse them, too pro business laws and business abuse them, you need to find a good balance and right now both italy and france are too pro labor which means newly hired guys get an underpaid temp job cause they have to compensate for all the benefits and fuckery of the untouchable old guard.

Btw, all the nordic countries like sweden, norway and similar have much much more liberal labor laws than italy and france, you can google flexicurity (the term for their labor ideals) and see for yourself.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexicurity

Yes but nordic countries have a much more solid social system. I don't mind labour flexibility if unemployment don't mean you go live in the street and often die. The social protection in France is shrinking every years since the 80's.

whitehawk · Sep 24, 2017

The proposals in the OP don't seem that offensive to me.

Golden_Pigeon · Sep 24, 2017

whitehawk said:
The proposals in the OP don't seem that offensive to me.

Just think as a worker. Would you rather discuss you're regulation as an individual with your boss, or following what was precedently settled by a collective of workers with your interest in mind ?

CanUKlehead · Sep 24, 2017

Should've been Obama.

mo60 · Sep 24, 2017

jackissocool said:
man Macron is such a piece of shit

shoulda been Melenchon

Melenchon is awful especially on foreign policy. Macron was not amazing but he was much better then the other presidential candidates

Bitch Pudding · Sep 24, 2017

Don't get the enthusiam here. If Macron fails France gets LePen next time. And last time I checked he got a strong mandate for his reforms which he announced he'd do in advance.

Golden_Pigeon · Sep 24, 2017

Bitch Pudding said:
Don't get the enthusiam here. If Macron fails France gets LePen next time. And last time I checked he got a strong mandate for his reforms which he announced he'd do in advance.

Most of the people who voted for him, me included, voted to not have le Pen in power. So he have a very weak mandate.

And it's precisely the destruction of the french social structure by 30 years of neoliberalism that have empowered Le Pen and her ideas. People without jobs nor social protection are more eager to find some scapegoats for their problems.

Bossun · Sep 24, 2017

Some of the changes are bad but otherwise it can be good. Too bad France is stuck in this unmoving stance about anything that touch employees without even considering the reality of life. Having worked in France, Canada, Thailand and Japan, France is the most ridiculously difficult place to find a job, even one who doesn't require diplomas.

iamblades · Sep 24, 2017

Golden_Pigeon said:
Yes but nordic countries have a much more solid social system. I don't mind labour flexibility if unemployment don't mean you go live in the street and often die. The social protection in France is shrinking every years since the 80's.

Which is entirely France's fault. I'm not sure where all the money is going, but French government spending is more than Sweden's, and substantially more than Norway's(like 25% more). If they can't manage on that kind of budget, they never will.

At some point there has to be an assessment of reality though, you can't just doom an entire generation to 25% + youth unemployment and expect a positive future. If you take a look at southern Europe for an example of what happens if things get much worse than they are in France now, you have entire losing all of their young people because there are no economic opportunities. Which of course leads to budget difficulties when you have large numbers of retirees and no young workers to pay their benefits. It's a disaster for a society.

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