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PS4 Brazil Importation costs revealed. Taxes say Olá!! ($1161.53 USD in taxes!)
- Thread starter phosphor112
- Start date
Microsoft is subsiding R$2000 for Brazilians?
HOLY FUCKING SHIT! If this is true, how can I not like what MS is doing? There's something wrong in these calculations, I can't believe that MS would subside this ammount of money only because of this market (that will get the consoles on the gray/black market ANYWAY).
HOLY FUCKING SHIT! If this is true, how can I not like what MS is doing? There's something wrong in these calculations, I can't believe that MS would subside this ammount of money only because of this market (that will get the consoles on the gray/black market ANYWAY).
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Damn end of page curse!
Well not even a profit, the $390 transfer price looks to me like a break even price. I'll explain everything in the list, give me a minute:
In USD:
Transfer price - $390 - This is the price Sony BR pays SCEI for finished units
Landing price - $468 - This is the cost of the unit once it is into an Sony BR warehouse
Distributor Margin - $117 - This is a mandatory BR government margin applied to all imported goods
Net sales - $585 - The amount Sony receive from each PS4 sale
ICMS - $222.43 - an importation tax applied to the $585 figure
PIS - $14.68 - a consumer tax applied to the $585 figure (Sony BR will claim this back)
COFINS - $67.62 - a consumer tax applied to the $585 figure (Sony BR will claim this back)
Gross - $889.73 - total cost to import one unit
IPI - $444.87 - a tax applied on gambling goods on the import price of $889.73
ICMS-ST/ - $223.12 - a tax on the $889.73 import price
Gross+ST - $1557.72 - final price of one PS4 unit to Sony BR
Dealer net cost - $1475.42 - Gross+ST less the consumer taxes PIS+COFINS
Retailer margin - $281.03 - 16% retail margin applied to the above figure
PIS - $31.94 - consumer tax applied to the sale price of $1756.46 (Dealer cost+retail margin)
COFINS - $147.10 - consumer tax applied to the sale price of $1756.46 (Dealer cost+retail margin)
Final retail price - $1935.49 - the four figures from above added up
Max suggested price - $1818.18 - MSRP
Adjustment - $117.31 - Sony discounting their margin to hit a strategic price point.
I will add that some of the sums don't really add up, so either there are some mistakes, or there's other stuff they just haven't bothered to add. The first chart doesn't really make much sense either tbh, I guess that is there to show the tax model people are using is not applicable.
Well not even a profit, the $390 transfer price looks to me like a break even price. I'll explain everything in the list, give me a minute:
In USD:
Transfer price - $390 - This is the price Sony BR pays SCEI for finished units
Landing price - $468 - This is the cost of the unit once it is into an Sony BR warehouse
Distributor Margin - $117 - This is a mandatory BR government margin applied to all imported goods
Net sales - $585 - The amount Sony receive from each PS4 sale
ICMS - $222.43 - an importation tax applied to the $585 figure
PIS - $14.68 - a consumer tax applied to the $585 figure (Sony BR will claim this back)
COFINS - $67.62 - a consumer tax applied to the $585 figure (Sony BR will claim this back)
Gross - $889.73 - total cost to import one unit
IPI - $444.87 - a tax applied on gambling goods on the import price of $889.73
ICMS-ST/ - $223.12 - a tax on the $889.73 import price
Gross+ST - $1557.72 - final price of one PS4 unit to Sony BR
Dealer net cost - $1475.42 - Gross+ST less the consumer taxes PIS+COFINS
Retailer margin - $281.03 - 16% retail margin applied to the above figure
PIS - $31.94 - consumer tax applied to the sale price of $1756.46 (Dealer cost+retail margin)
COFINS - $147.10 - consumer tax applied to the sale price of $1756.46 (Dealer cost+retail margin)
Final retail price - $1935.49 - the four figures from above added up
Max suggested price - $1818.18 - MSRP
Adjustment - $117.31 - Sony discounting their margin to hit a strategic price point.
I will add that some of the sums don't really add up, so either there are some mistakes, or there's other stuff they just haven't bothered to add. The first chart doesn't really make much sense either tbh, I guess that is there to show the tax model people are using is not applicable.
Even their MTF transgendered are very attractive :|
I never said it was. I am a brazilian and what I see here in Brazil is that taxes are not the only thing to blame for the prices, but high profit margins too. A profit margin of R$857, even if distributed between Sony and retailers is very high. Of course Sony is not the only one to blame here, high profit margins are a widespread practice in Brazil.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
As the numbers stand, Sony BR don't make any money on the sale of the PS4 and neither would SCEI on a $390 transfer price. It is a combination of a high transfer price and the cumulative effect of compounded charges, taxes and mandatory margins.
Somebody pointed out in another thread that Sony is including the profit margins when calculating the taxes, while the taxes are applied to the base price, to try to justify the price. There is simply no way anyone can defend them. In my opinion Sony is being smart. They know that the ones willing to buy the PS4 on launch in the "official market" have enough money to pay R$4000, so they are trying to profit as much as possible during the launch window.
Nope. The profit margins are clearly listed as R$257 for Sony and R$618 for the retailer in the Portuguese version of the table, they are not part of the base price of $398, they are added later in order to reach R$4000.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
All taxes other than the 20% import fee (II) are calculated on the sale price which includes the distributor margin. It's not a case of Sony being smart, I highly doubt they would do that voluntarily or lie on a financial statement. It really strikes me as more likely that taxes in Brazil are very high and cumulative/compounded to promote large profit margins for local branches of multinationals in Brazil to encourage employment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v3T_OZENp0
hahahahah the best one!
For those who doesn't understand portuguese:
hahahahah the best one!
For those who doesn't understand portuguese:
Here in Brazil we have a bank called "Caixa Economica Federal", something like "Federal Economical Box" (make sense here).
So there's a market campaign with this song:
"Vem pra caixa você também!"
"Come to Box you too!"
This is an old joke sang by xbots, but the complete song is amazing because says that you will save money if you go to "Box", so it's perfect for the PS4 situation.
So there's a market campaign with this song:
"Vem pra caixa você também!"
"Come to Box you too!"
This is an old joke sang by xbots, but the complete song is amazing because says that you will save money if you go to "Box", so it's perfect for the PS4 situation.
Tiu Neo
Member
I am one of those. Even with the numbers, it seems really fishy to me. Not even other Sony products are taxed this much.
Anyway, if those numbers are right, and I still have my doubts, Microsoft got my respect back, cutting their profit by a lot, just to be competitive here. They may have made a lot of shitty moves before, and we can't forgive them for that, but at least they give some importance to Brazil.
Too bad they don't give a fuck for the rest of the world.
The brazilian law states that profit should not be taken into account when calculating the taxes mentioned in the report.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Do you have a link to this law? I would like to read it, might be useful to know the tax structure in Brazil.
That's a shitload of taxes! I don't know if this is true, but someone once told me it was due to the fact that gaming is compared to gambling in brasil, but I could be totally wrong on this. It boggles my mind..63% tax?
It takes a lot of passion and devotion to gaming to put up with that.
If I'm wrong about that,my apologies Brasil-GAF. Don't kill me please. Portuguese here!
It's true. Nobody knows why, but if I were to guess, they didn't have a category back then and had to fill on the closest one. Or, even worse, thought it really was a gambling game (because of arcades?). Anyway, they never fixed that. The reason why PC games are cheaper is because they're taxed as software. So our Steam prices are, in the majority of cases, even cheaper than USA. But anything related to consoles is still taxed as gambling.
Unfortunately no, someone mentioned it in a Brazilian website without giving a link, but I saw this mentioned also before regarding other things. Also, from what I know, the profits are taxed at the end of the fiscal year. If the company/retailer managed to turn a profit at the end of the fiscal year taxes are applied, not before.
DarkoMaledictus
Tier Whore
Well could be, have not read anything on it but ps4 would be considered as a japanese import and xbox as an american import... might have some tax breaks part of some agreements... if you can call that tax breaks
as a Brazilian myself, I confirm it, greed on our veins.
ethomaz
Banned
Sony Brasil deal with SCEA... all consoles they sold are from US... even the games have the US CODE.Well could be, have not read anything on it but ps4 would be considered as a japanese import and xbox as an american import... might have some tax breaks part of some agreements... if you can call that tax breaks
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
BGS heist incoming:
Where do i sign up? :lol
ethomaz
Banned
Tax over profit only inside at the end of fiscal year... you pay a part each three months to sum at the fiscal year... it is called IRPJ.
http://www.receita.fazenda.gov.br/pessoajuridica/dipj/2000/orientacoes/lucroreal.htm
Consumers here didn't pay taxes over the company profit lol... we already pay a lot of taxes over the product price.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
I would be surprised if it was true. I have never heard of sales taxes being applied pre-margin, especially not in high tax countries. Doesn't make sense.
What you are talking about is corporation tax, what we are discussing here is sales tax and import duties, the only import duty on there (II) is applied pre-margin which makes sense, the rest are post-margin, which again is standard operating procedure. What's horrible is that Brazilians are paying taxes on taxes. So many of those taxes are compounded, again it happens in a lot of countries, over here in the UK, on petrol we pay sales tax on the final price which includes petrol taxes.
There is nothing shocking in that list other than the price, if Sony had chosen to make profit locally in Brazil by charging a low transfer price ($200) and then pump up the margin to have a net sale price of $440 (II would be $40 on a $200 item) the resulting retail price would be significantly lower. Sony have decided that they don't want to lose money in Japan and then make it back in Brazil, they would prefer to not to show losses in Japan because they are currently struggling for profitability in their Japanese branch and it has a bad effect on their domestic tax situation.
Again, that is income tax, it is completely different to sales tax. Pretty much everywhere I can think of puts sales taxes on post margin. Take the US as an example, the price over there is $399 which includes the retailer margin and Sony's margin, sales taxes are then applied to the $399 price, not the pre-margin price of ~$370. Sales taxes are usually the very last thing to be added to prices, the problem in Brazil is that there are so many and the process of applying them seems so random and opaque.
Everybody except EVERY SINGLE TAX EXPERT THAT EVERY MAJOR BRASILIAN SITE INTERVIEWED.
The problem is NOT the ps4 price.
It is the XBOX ONE price
- Using the same "distributor margin": 20%
- Using the same "retailer margin": 16%.
- Using the same "added-value margin": 33.54% (based on the video game category)
- Using the same accounting magic Sony is using for the PS4.
- No discounts given.
Aug 2010. If PS3 wholesale price was $290:
(exchange rate was US$ 1 = R$ 1.76))
=> Final Price is R$ 2,533
=> MRSP was R$ 1,999
=> "Discount": R$ 534
Jun 2012. If PS3 wholesale price was $190:
(exchange rate was US$ 1 = R$ 2.03))
=> Final Price is R$ 1,915
=> MRSP was R$ 1,399
=> "Discount": R$ 516
Mar 2012. If Vita wholesale price was $240:
(exchange rate was US$ 1 = R$ 1.72)
=> Final Price is R$ 2,049
=> MRSP was R$ 1,399
=> "Discount": R$ 640
Oct 2013. PS4 wholesale price is $290:
(exchange rate is US$ 1 = R$ 2.2)
=> Final Price is R$ 4,258
=> MRSP was R$ 3,999
=> "Discount": R$ 259
So, even if we are to believe Sony is the helpless victim, they would at best be offering a worst subside for the PS4 than they did for their other products.
Just for fun, Xbox One wholesale price of $390 (except the exchange rate was R$ 2.11)
=> Final Price is R$ 5,131
=> MRSP was R$ 2,199
=> "Discount": R$ 2,932
- Using the same "retailer margin": 16%.
- Using the same "added-value margin": 33.54% (based on the video game category)
- Using the same accounting magic Sony is using for the PS4.
- No discounts given.
Aug 2010. If PS3 wholesale price was $290:
(exchange rate was US$ 1 = R$ 1.76))
=> Final Price is R$ 2,533
=> MRSP was R$ 1,999
=> "Discount": R$ 534
Jun 2012. If PS3 wholesale price was $190:
(exchange rate was US$ 1 = R$ 2.03))
=> Final Price is R$ 1,915
=> MRSP was R$ 1,399
=> "Discount": R$ 516
Mar 2012. If Vita wholesale price was $240:
(exchange rate was US$ 1 = R$ 1.72)
=> Final Price is R$ 2,049
=> MRSP was R$ 1,399
=> "Discount": R$ 640
Oct 2013. PS4 wholesale price is $290:
(exchange rate is US$ 1 = R$ 2.2)
=> Final Price is R$ 4,258
=> MRSP was R$ 3,999
=> "Discount": R$ 259
So, even if we are to believe Sony is the helpless victim, they would at best be offering a worst subside for the PS4 than they did for their other products.
Just for fun, Xbox One wholesale price of $390 (except the exchange rate was R$ 2.11)
=> Final Price is R$ 5,131
=> MRSP was R$ 2,199
=> "Discount": R$ 2,932
zomgbbqftw
Banned
@Road, as for the lower discount on the PS4 I would say its volume related, why discount in Brazil when Europeans will buy everything they can get for a higher price.
On the Xbox, the transfer price might be lower if MS attach a higher strategic value to Brazil than Sony. MS might view it as a market where they can build up a significant market share leas in because Sony are struggling with volume and negative margins. Another theory is that MS are sending almost finished units there and importing the Xbox for a small price and importing Kinect separately which isn't subject to the same harsh taxes as it is essentially a webcam.
Noy sure if that holds up to scrutiny though...
On the Xbox, the transfer price might be lower if MS attach a higher strategic value to Brazil than Sony. MS might view it as a market where they can build up a significant market share leas in because Sony are struggling with volume and negative margins. Another theory is that MS are sending almost finished units there and importing the Xbox for a small price and importing Kinect separately which isn't subject to the same harsh taxes as it is essentially a webcam.
Noy sure if that holds up to scrutiny though...
Angelcurio
Member
I don't know if in Brazil thing work in the same way as over here in Dominican Republic, where the PS4 would cost as much as $1,000 dollars and people would simply not care, since retailers normally charge you more that 3 times the cost of the goods. So, people don't actually pay attention to store prices and simply import the consoles, and pay the normal tax of 36% of the price of the console (16% tax + 20% tax for highly value articles)
Currently a PS3 without HDD, which goes for sale for $200 on the states, costs in a store around $470 / $500, more than twice the price of it in the states. But, if i go to Amazon and purchase it, then pay for a courier to bring it over here, i just end up paying aaround $272 for my console, saving for than the cost of the whole console just by importing.
Currently a PS3 without HDD, which goes for sale for $200 on the states, costs in a store around $470 / $500, more than twice the price of it in the states. But, if i go to Amazon and purchase it, then pay for a courier to bring it over here, i just end up paying aaround $272 for my console, saving for than the cost of the whole console just by importing.
No comment about the profit marguins then? I always see you blaming taxes, but you ignore everyone who says that profit margins are also to blame.
Sales tax is ICMS, already included in the table. I do not know, however if pre or post margin. But the other taxes listed such as IPI (taxes over industrialized products, nothing to do with gambling) is pre margin and Sony list it as post margin.
AwakenedCloud
Member
It's anecdotal evidence, but all 3 of my Brazilian foreign-exchange friends were stoked to get a PS3 on black Friday 2012. I'm pretty sure they said they would've needed to pay 3X the price in their home country.
Road of Ease
Member
Not really a "problem" is it
But yeah, it's the one thing left unsolved
At least Sony was transparent, hopefully that'll lead to more informed people and a better discussion on our taxation.
Xbone is coming for half the price, despite costing $100 more. It's been rumored Sony Brasil's got around 10k units available at launch. T
This could explain why the prices have reached this exorbitant figure. They are trying to maximize profit due to the fact they have this ridiculously few Ps4.
This could explain why the prices have reached this exorbitant figure. They are trying to maximize profit due to the fact they have this ridiculously few Ps4.
Subside would explain dodging taxes ... but HOW much is the braizlian goverment opening their legs to microsoft and how much is microsoft not taking profit ?
Profit margins are huge .... but this is how our country works.
And even if you take away the profit margins in the sony data you are still with a ridiculous price that is MUCH bigger than Xbone's
Profit margins are huge .... but this is how our country works.
And even if you take away the profit margins in the sony data you are still with a ridiculous price that is MUCH bigger than Xbone's
The problem is the price of every other gaming device ever, including Sony ones.
Seriously, it's really hard to defend Sony here when the actual evidence is out there, is every gaming company making such heavy subsidizing then? including Sony themselves for devices like the Vita? it makes no sense.
Them show me one tax expert that agreed with the Sony statement
You don't pay more than $1000 of taxes from a $400 product.
Our taxes are big, but not this big. This is bullsh**
wow wake up man. The Kotaku analyst says they are using the higher taxes possible and high profit margin for retailers. So we are paying for something that we shouldnt.
At least now I know why Sony products are so expensive. Looks like Serginho Malandro is running Sony BR's fiscal accounting.
Keeping everything else, the Xbox One "wholesale price" informed by MS would have to be US$210 for the price to be R$2199.
I just don't see how they can do that, unless
- Each Xbox One only really costs $210 (and MS is making $280 on each unit sold...).
- Microsoft is willing to lose $280 on each XBO sold to the Brazilian distributor.
- Microsoft is committing fraud.
Even if we make the distributor (assuming MS is selling it themselves) and retailer margin are reduced to 0% (somehow MS convinced retailers to sell it like that) in that calculation, the XBO wholesale price would still need to be $310.
So that's an example that the problem is with Sony, not Microsoft. I really doubt Microsoft is subsidizing the price that much. And at least in the 90's, when I paid attention to console prices, I don't remember a console being sold oficially by 4 times the Us price. And taxes haven't increased since then.
phosphor112
Banned
Because it's one or the other?
I am not defending sony, i am just using the facts =P
Both expecialists that Arena IG and Kotaku said the math is basicaly ok.
Maybe Vita price was choosen when Sony Brasil was in better legs. Maybe it was exactly this choice that made then be so bad today so they can only take 250 bucks =P
edit :
We ALWAYS pay for something that we shouldn't. Or else there would be no money to be made =P
Kotaku mentioned that they are using 25% where they could be using 18%, but then again it can be simply one of those taxes that change from state to state and everyone is paying São Paulo's price =P
CadetMahoney
Member
Indeed. Really smh at this.
From the Kotaku link:
"Conversamos com o advogado especializado em tributos aduaneiros Márcio Camargo Ferreira da Silva para tentar entender um pouco mais sobre a composição do preço do PlayStation 4 no Brasil, e segundo ele, os impostos são esses e realmente pesados. Mas há alguns fatores dignos de nota na discriminação dos valores passada pela Sony.
Na tabela há o que Camargo classifica como uma “gordura” na conta: impostos que estariam sendo cobratos com a alíquota máxima possível, em vez de porcentagens reduzidas, que poderiam fazer o preço do console abaixar. Um exemplo que ele dá é o ICMS, que está em 25% e poderia estar em 18%. Outro fator é a localização de algumas tarifas na tabela, mais especificamente da margem da distribuidora (a própria Sony Brasil) que é de 20%. Como ela vem em primeiro na tabela, isso quer dizer que todos os impostos incidem em um valor que já conta essa margem quando o certo seria que ela viesse no final da conta.
Camargo também aponta os 16% de margem de lucro dos varejistas como sendo um percentual muito alto, principalmente comparado com os praticados em outros países. Nos EUA, ele fica entre 3 e 4%."
Basically, it is said that that the profit margin is about 4 times larger than in the US, some taxes are higher than they should be in this case (he gives an example of a tax that should be about 18% but Sony is considering 25%) and also all the taxes are being applied on the profit margins when most of them shouldn't. So the price is not right.
Did you read the Kotaku article?
The guy said Sony assumed the highest ICMS tax possible, not the real, and that they they added the margins made all tax be calculate with them included, raising the final price even more.
But is not a huge diference.
Profit margin is huge in the entire country for everything, it is NOT only a videogame problem and every single videogame has this.
He says that they are pessimistic, but the basic math is ok.
They are just using bigget examples because of the chances that our borders stop the merchandising.
And even if those pessisimist math became the MOST OPTMISTIC MATH EVER they would NOT go anywhere near R$3000
Just a few things to make clear what each of those taxes is: ICMS is a sales tax. It is charged twice, once when Sony sells the product to a retailer and a second time when it is sold to the costumer (that is ICMS-ST). IPI is a tax applied to industrialized goods. PIS is a social security tax to pay for unemployment benefits. COFINS is another social security tax, in this case to pay for free medical care and social insurance. IPI is high in this case because it is a imported product. It is lower for locally produced goods.
When calculating the IPI, COFINS and PIS profit margins are not taken into account.
I have a friend who emigrated from Brazil and we are grey marketing 3 consoles down to his family for Christmas but he was telling me that the real issue is how corrupt their government is, that the taxes are not applied equally to all companies and some pay far more then others under the same regulatory statues so as a rule its damned near impossible to figure out why certain tech cost what down their, he also said that MS has a manufacturing plant down there and that garners them huge favor with their Govt. and a sizable tax break. I now its only anecdotal but thats the best info I've been able to come up with, because after doing my own google research and applying the taxes as their written with the currency exchange rate I kept coming up with it should be just north of R$1,800.
This is true, but it has nothing to do with corruption: many times the laws regarding taxes are not clear enough and if you have a good lawyer you can usually find "gaps" or contradictions in the law that allow you to pay less taxes. Every politician agrees that taxes laws should be revised and simplified so to avoid contradictions and "gaps". However, while the federal government is willing to change the taxes and even charge less, the majority of the states are not as they are in debt and would become bankrupt in case the tax income diminishes.