Yes, but my excitement is justified
Have you played F-Zero GX in VR Tain? Seriously, it is an orgasmic experience bro.
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Pimax "8k" 200° FoV VR HMD KS page up (not live yet)
- Thread starter Durante
- Start date
Yes, but my excitement is justified
Have you played F-Zero GX in VR Tain? Seriously, it is an orgasmic experience bro.
Cats Waller
Neo Member
Yeah uh, there are gonna be zero games that run well on this. Existing vr headsets are already a nightmare to make games for and always fillrate (rendering enough pixels fast enough) bound.
Dreamwriter
Member
I disagree, existing VR games target GTX 970's, I think two 1080ti's using VR SLI would work fine (as long as those games were built for VR SLI). VR SLI has each card rendering one eye.
Also, the normal "8k" version doesn't actually use the full resolution of the screens - it only supports one Display-Port input, which maxes out at 4k resolution total, which then gets upscaled to the native resolution. The version that supports native dual-4k screen resolutions uses two Display Port connectors to do so, and isn't shipping until sometime next year (and yeah, the developers say that you may need a next-gen graphics card to support that at 90 hz).
ThisIsMyDogKyle
Banned
So, if I were to get the $350 early bird for the 5k option would I still be able to use it even though I don't have any of the lighthouses or controllers? or would I have to buy those as well for it to work?
Dreamwriter
Member
You would need to buy those - it says specifically in the description
Kickstarter said:
That's just not true. Check my posts earlier in the thread on this topic. (Short version: you can run almost any VR game at 10 megapixels on a 1080 non-ti, the display resolution here is 16 MP, and the display resolution of a Rift/Vive is ~2 MP)
This isn't completely really. The non-X takes 2560x1440 per screen. (which they call "5k", but lets stick to real resolutions)
GhostTrick
Banned
Mmh bit expensive. I'd buy the 5k alone but since I have no way to buy vive controllers alone...
I am a bit confused, because I think Pimax claims that non-X version gets 4K image upscaled to 8K. Which would be weird since it would be only a half of the displays resolution and would have to be stretched?
Sending 1440p image to each 2160p screen makes much more sense, I hope it works that way.
I didn't make that 4K upscaled to 8K up - see the FAQ:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pimax8kvr/pimax-the-worlds-first-8k-vr-headset/faqs
How would that even work?
4K is 3840x2160, "8K" according to pimax is 7680x2160, so how would that even scale?
There are also conflicting reports about that cheaper "5K" HMD - Tested said it's OLED, but I also read that it's the same low persistence LCD as in 8K model. There is zero mention of OLED on the campaign page, and FAQ says:
Aztechnology
Member
It's tempting. But I'm not sure I can make that jump on untested final hardware.
What is the resolution of the 5k version per eye and what is the FOV? Seems like getting that and picking up Knuckle controllers and lighthouse 2.0 from HTC/valve might not be terrible. But at that point you're basically looking at what I'd assume would be the cost of a Vive 2.0 anyway.
Edit: Ah ok, 1440p, but does it still enjoy expanded FOV? I'd assume not as much, but some improvement hopefully.
What is the resolution of the 5k version per eye and what is the FOV? Seems like getting that and picking up Knuckle controllers and lighthouse 2.0 from HTC/valve might not be terrible. But at that point you're basically looking at what I'd assume would be the cost of a Vive 2.0 anyway.
Edit: Ah ok, 1440p, but does it still enjoy expanded FOV? I'd assume not as much, but some improvement hopefully.
Tested got so much wrong in that video on a technical level that I wouldn't really take anything from it other than their impressions. PIMAX have been saying for a while that all displays are CLPL or whatever they call their low-persistence LCDs.
Also, regarding the resolution: on their forum, they clarified that the non-X takes 2560x1440 per eye, and as you say that makes much more sense than any other option.
The FoV should be the same unless the displays are physically smaller.
Aztechnology
Member
That's what I'm wondering. Is it the same physical unit and screen size? I can definitely live with 1440p per eye, I feel like there's less potential issues. The FOV is a bigger deal to me personally than 4k per eye, even though I obviously do want that and eye tracking eventually. I know that it will require a lot of work though taking into account all of the complications of tracking different people's eyes. I have a bit of fear of missing out right now. But I also feel like it might just be better to wait for a new Vive. The Oculus is working well enough for me, for now. The only issue I really have is using glasses with it and FOV. I 3D printed adapters to help with this, but it's still not ideal.
DouglasteR
Member
Got my early backer as soon it opened.
It's a no brainer, with HTC/Valve/Oculus silence on new hardware it falls to Pimax to deliver.
Im not expectating a ultra quality product, but something like an OnePlus 5 (budget flagship).
I bit the 8k upscaled version because i can always upgrade it to the real 8k later and by then their foveat eye device should be ready, making it feasible to run.
I don't understand the fud on this.
Its just two 4k panels glued together (hence the 8k name, but i admit it's marketing) that although they are true 4k, they input signal will be 1440p and then upscaled to the panel native resolution. Even with the upscaling, the native 4k pixels and higher input signal resolution should give a boost in "readability" with nothing else geting close. And dont forget the fov, scuba mask no more.
They have a true gold opportunity in their hands, lets hope they dont $@#%3 this up.
I'd put that soley on Pimax though, in having conflicting information prior to the Kickstarter opening, having missinformation about both the "8k" resolution and the actual input, and sending someone without the language skills to answer the questions asked.
I think overall this whole thing has been handled poorly from the start. I'm definitely sitting this one out.
Sure, their handling was poor, but I still have higher standards for my tech journalism.
To me, someone working as a tech journalist should have the background to ask the right questions and evaluate the answers, and also put in the work to report accurately even in the face of conflicting information.
Looking through their KS completely now, I will wait for impressions for sure. Too many things uncertain. They had terrible ghosting with their previous headsetand although they said they imrpoved it with the CLPL display, I am still wary. Not to mention it does not look very comfortable and seems to sit on your nose rather than on your head.
While I wouldn't depend on them for in-depth technical information, ghosting is one thing the Tested reviewers said they were particularly worried about and that it is - as far as they could tell - not an issue. They also remarked that the HMD is lighter than existing consumer headsets.
It's weight is supposedly comparable to Rift, and lighter than Vive.
I went for early bird 8K which is almost 500$ with shipping for just the HMD. I hope more tests emerge before the kickstarter ends and some things will be clarified (such as 100% confirmation that IPD adjustment is mechanical, how does brainwarp work in practice, is the image heavily distorted at the edges like Tested reported).
In an ideal world some technical and competent person like Durante or Doc OK (Oliver Kreylos) would get their hands on the headset and test it. Tested's review left a sour taste in my mouth. Especially the interview part.
I'd love for Doc OK to test every VR HMD. There should be a law for that. He has the equipment to perform a truly objective evaluation.
(also, if you drop your early bird tier let me know before you do
No problem, if for some reason I decided to drop it, I will coordinate it with you so you can jump in and snatch it the moment it's available. No promises though
The Tested video is interesting. I'm not getting a ''omg this is a real leap' vibe at all? I would have thought the dramatic increase in resolution would be a huge upgrade, but they seem to imply its not really relevant aside from racing games with distant objects, or virtual screens/desktops (which I have no interest in).
I'm still tempted at that price though, especially considering the 'consumer' version will be likely be +30% more...
I'm still tempted at that price though, especially considering the 'consumer' version will be likely be +30% more...
GuitarAtomik
Member
FOV is the same on both. The display sizes are the same. Only difference is resolution.
DouglasteR
Member
Well, at least it's exciting to see tech being pushed further.
The tested impressions were super promising to me.
From what it sounds like, they've fixed the ghosting, they didn't mention any issue with the brightness, the resolution clarity is a big step up from Vive/Rift, it's hard to go back to them after trying out the high FOV (FOV is #1 for immersion for me), very little god rays, and it's very light/comfortable.
If the only flaw is distortion along the edges of the lenses (which they very well might improve on), that's fine because the Vive already has a sweet spot in the middle, already used to it. Then there's the upscaling, which is fine for me as I'd seldom want to push native res, I was already planning on it (and it's still more than double the horizontal resolution per eye than the Vive, it's a flaw in that it's better but not potentially way better?)
So unless I'm missing something it still sounds like the perfect VR headset. They also suggested that they /might/ sell the PCB to upgrade your 8K into an 8K X (assuming you're comfortable doing so), and they also said that any X backers on the Kickstarter would be offered to get the 8K shipped to them upon release, and then free shipping replacement for the X when it's released.
Although they also suggested that they /might/ upgrade Kickstarter backers to the audio headstrap for free, so who knows what they'll really do. Would be an extra ~$100 value added to the Kickstarter, if compared to Vive.
From what it sounds like, they've fixed the ghosting, they didn't mention any issue with the brightness, the resolution clarity is a big step up from Vive/Rift, it's hard to go back to them after trying out the high FOV (FOV is #1 for immersion for me), very little god rays, and it's very light/comfortable.
If the only flaw is distortion along the edges of the lenses (which they very well might improve on), that's fine because the Vive already has a sweet spot in the middle, already used to it. Then there's the upscaling, which is fine for me as I'd seldom want to push native res, I was already planning on it (and it's still more than double the horizontal resolution per eye than the Vive, it's a flaw in that it's better but not potentially way better?)
So unless I'm missing something it still sounds like the perfect VR headset. They also suggested that they /might/ sell the PCB to upgrade your 8K into an 8K X (assuming you're comfortable doing so), and they also said that any X backers on the Kickstarter would be offered to get the 8K shipped to them upon release, and then free shipping replacement for the X when it's released.
Although they also suggested that they /might/ upgrade Kickstarter backers to the audio headstrap for free, so who knows what they'll really do. Would be an extra ~$100 value added to the Kickstarter, if compared to Vive.
Wait for the knuckles controllers, which should hopefully be available around the time this ships.
I'm almost certainly going to hold off on this (I still don't have the space for a proper VR setup), but if I were to jump in on the kickstarter I'd just back as the headset level and hold out for knuckles & gen 2 lighthouses.
Keep in mind they were running the demo off a laptop, so it's likely the games were running quite a bit lower than full resolution. The virtual desktop demo was more likely running at full res (or the maximum resolution the headset could accept, anyway, which should be 2x1440p), and they were very positive about the sharpness there. It's a shame they weren't able to demo the headset on a more appropriate rig, it's almost like demoing a 4K TV with nothing but 1080p youtube streams.
Hopefully they'll do some more press previews and allow the previewers to use it with their own machines (I'd imagine any outlet previewing this would have a 1080Ti or two they'd be happy to put to use). Even better, it'd be great if they could get a demo unit of the 8K X version into the hands of someone with a dual 1080Ti or Titan Xp rig and a copy of Serious Sam VR (there are very few titles around that support either of Nvidia or AMD's multi-GPU VR systems, but Croteam have managed to support both), who can really push the panels to their limits.
Aztechnology
Member
This is where I'm at, I have no doubt that the Vive 2.0 (Which I hope will be out next year) will include the knuckle controllers, lighthouse 2.0 and new HMD for ~$700. I think I can wait to see what that offers given the pedigree before this. The money saved not having a Vive currently makes it a better approach for me personally.
Interestingly, it seems like there is a relatively new (from July) driver-level interface in OpenVR which can accomodate HMDs with tilted displays:
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/op...2b81d762159df7e/headers/openvr_driver.h#L2312
So it seems like Valve has been getting ready for the HMDs like this (or even the PIMAX in particular).
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/op...2b81d762159df7e/headers/openvr_driver.h#L2312
So it seems like Valve has been getting ready for the HMDs like this (or even the PIMAX in particular).
DouglasteR
Member
Nice catch. Hopefully this is part of the solution to the warp stretched image on the fov.
Note that this is not my catch, it was pointed out on reddit here.
I think it`s about having no screendoor effect and better FOV. Those are big issues right now, or at least how i understood.
Projection and Distortion in Wide-FoV HMDs - http://doc-ok.org/?p=1649
They have their own wireless solution in the pipeline:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCOsJRopjMc
They have their own wireless solution in the pipeline:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCOsJRopjMc
Literally the only other thing I would have needed to be on board was eye tracking so that Foveated rendering could be a thing.
Otherwise an "8K" screen like this is utterly useless on even the most powerful hardware.
edit: not a fan of the design
Dead space lookinass.
DouglasteR
Member
Stretch goal so far:
I'm generally not a big fan of huge stretch goals for HW kickstarter, but these seem reasonable and unlikely to delay the production of the main unit. I dig the strap upgrade.
In this particular case, VR software is actually in a very advantageous position compared to traditional on-screen games. The OpenVR API is designed to provide specifics about the hardware (including projection matrices) to the games, so as long as that API is followed, any VR device (with a per-eye FoV reasonably below 180°, which the PIMAX is) can ba accommodated without requiring any game-level changes.
GuitarAtomik
Member
Wonder how that wireless module would work with their headband strap.
GuitarAtomik
Member
The specs aren't as high as the name sounds. They're coming out with one closer to that (though still not quite what the name suggests) and they caution people to not buy that version unless you have a 1080ti or maybe even two SLI'd.
notacat
Member
wow ok, I see the 5K one too. I don't think even a 1080i can maintain a 60fps (on max settings) in a lot of games consistently.
curious about it though, especially the bigger FOV, i think that would make the most difference besides resolution.
nycgamer4ever
Member
This looks pretty interesting. I've been tempted to get the 4k version but now that this is coming Ill hold off. Quick question if after reading through all this it looks like if I have a gtx1080 and do not plan to upgrade anytime soon the ideal version is the 8k version right?
Is it true or inputs at 1440p in each eye and upscale to 4k?
Does it come with any tracking without light house or any other add on module?
The controllers and light house that comes with the higher tier are they the same as HTC controllers and lighthouse or are they valve's new controller?
Sorry for all the questions just so confusing.
Is it true or inputs at 1440p in each eye and upscale to 4k?
Does it come with any tracking without light house or any other add on module?
The controllers and light house that comes with the higher tier are they the same as HTC controllers and lighthouse or are they valve's new controller?
Sorry for all the questions just so confusing.
GuitarAtomik
Member
The "5k" version has 2 2560x1440 panels, and inputs 2 x 2560x1440 @ 90 Hz.
The "8k" version has 2 3840x2160 panels, driving them at 2 x 2560x1440 @ 90 Hz.
The "8k X" version has 2 3840x2160 panels, driving them at 2 x 3840x2160 @ 90 Hz.
It has lighthouse-based tracking. There are bundles which include lighthouses, and also HMD-only packages (if you already have lighthouses).
They are a different type of controller made by PIMAX. The lighthouses should be new "2.0" lighthouses.
nycgamer4ever
Member
Thanks for the answers!
nycgamer4ever
Member
Thanks for the clarity Durante!
So the normal 8k version is upscaled per eye to 4k from a source at 2560x1440p resolution correct?
I haven't seen anything said in this thread but I asked Pimax if there are any tracking solutions included within just the headsets and he said there are gyroscopes in it just like the current 4k version. This is good news for those just looking to purchase this for adult ahem "research" ahem...
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Got one of the 5k early birds. Maaaaay bump to the 8k if one opens up but I dunno, not actively looking for it. There higher FOV and resolution make this sound like a decent step up from the current headsets.
Was thinking about getting a projector but this is probably better. My poor GPU is going to cry though.
Was thinking about getting a projector but this is probably better. My poor GPU is going to cry though.