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Steven Universe |OT4| Every Rose Has Its Thorns

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I think the only time the art's ever actively taken me out of a moment in SU (with "serious" episodes, anyway) was the wonkiness during Friend Ship. I think being a little more exaggerated / cartoony can work for episodes, though - despite being a seriously, uh... serious episode, Ruby going dangerously off-model in Keystone Motel was hilarious.

Also, considering they're a race of shapeshifters, they may actually be adjusting their forms to look like that.
 
^^^
A lot of people have adopted that head cannon. haha
I think the biggest thing that bugs me about the design inconsistencies is how amazing and well-crafted the show looks when the right storyboarding team is in charge, or when Rebecca Sugar storyboards certain scenes. In a perfect world, the show would look that great all the time.

It'd be one thing if designs were allowed to vary wildly on a show like The Loud House, which is geared almost solely towards comedy. Thought I guess the show would be really weird if the sisters were all different heights from scene to scene and episode to episode. I understand the mindset of allowing storyboarders to put their own style on the characters. But when it's applied to a show loved by most of its fans for its more serious elements, it becomes more off-putting and I'm not sure it really works.

At the very least, the most jarring design differences seem to be regulated to less "important" episodes. The only "important" episode that I can think of that suffers from mid-tier animation is Crack the Whip. The Stevonnie/Jasper fight feels sort of flat, but that's not really due to design inconsistencies.

Agreed wholeheartedly.
 

Exotoro

Member
Im pretty sure its been established peridot cant shift, which is where a lot of the complaints have been directed towards, at least from what i've seen.

I think theres a pretty clear difference between style shifts between boarders to straight up unapologetic errors and i dont think it should just be handwaved away.

I love that each boarder has their style but the characters should be consistent to an extent.
 

Zubz

Banned
I think the only time the art's ever actively taken me out of a moment in SU (with "serious" episodes, anyway) was the wonkiness during Friend Ship. I think being a little more exaggerated / cartoony can work for episodes, though - despite being a seriously, uh... serious episode, Ruby going dangerously off-model in Keystone Motel was hilarious.

Also, considering they're a race of shapeshifters, they may actually be adjusting their forms to look like that.

Yeah... Keystone Motel was definitely the best argument in favor of going off-model. I love that Ruby supposedly didn't even go that far off-model on the storyboards until they actually heard Charlene Yi read the lines.
 

Toxi

Banned
I had a really terrible day yesterday. Bunch of stresses that had been building up for the past week just exploded all at once. I feel like my depression-related anxiety just came roaring back in full force. Lots of doubt, self loathing, and self pity.

This is really cheesy to say, but "Here Comes a Thought" helped me deal with the situation (alongside some good conversations with family and friends and a long walk outside). The song was wonderful at calming me down and letting me contextualize what was going on. I'm really thankful to the show writers for focusing on mindfulness, because mindfulness is so important to many people's lives, including my own. I hope that song can help other people in the same way.

Also Estelle and AJ Michalka sing really damn well.
 

zeemumu

Member
I had a really terrible day yesterday. Bunch of stresses that had been building up for the past week just exploded all at once. I feel like my depression-related anxiety just came roaring back in full force. Lots of doubt, self loathing, and self pity.

This is really cheesy to say, but "Here Comes a Thought" helped me deal with the situation (alongside some good conversations with family and friends and a long walk outside). The song was wonderful at calming me down and letting me contextualize what was going on. I'm really thankful to the show writers for focusing on mindfulness, because mindfulness is so important to many people's lives, including my own. I hope that song can help other people in the same way.

Also Estelle and AJ Michalka sing really damn well.

I don't have good conversations with my family anymore. Everything ends up with my mom telling me to pray on it.
 

NEO0MJ

Member
I had a really terrible day yesterday. Bunch of stresses that had been building up for the past week just exploded all at once. I feel like my depression-related anxiety just came roaring back in full force. Lots of doubt, self loathing, and self pity.

Sorry to hear that. Hope things look up soon.
You're good spider people, Toxi.
 

Zubz

Banned
I'm not seeing anything on the schedule for tomorrow; should I worry?

I had a really terrible day yesterday. Bunch of stresses that had been building up for the past week just exploded all at once. I feel like my depression-related anxiety just came roaring back in full force. Lots of doubt, self loathing, and self pity.

This is really cheesy to say, but "Here Comes a Thought" helped me deal with the situation (alongside some good conversations with family and friends and a long walk outside). The song was wonderful at calming me down and letting me contextualize what was going on. I'm really thankful to the show writers for focusing on mindfulness, because mindfulness is so important to many people's lives, including my own. I hope that song can help other people in the same way.

Also Estelle and AJ Michalka sing really damn well.

I'm sorry to hear this, Toxi, but I'm glad you were able to ground yourself.
 

Psxphile

Member
I'm not seeing anything on the schedule for tomorrow; should I worry?

Yes. No new episode this week. Zap2it still lists Lion 4 for March 23rd, next Thursday.
UPDATE: internal CN scheduling says no new episode airing next week either

we hiatus now
 
don't worry, the climactic final 3 minutes of an episode 7 episodes out will leak from CN UK and then we won't get the bomb preceding it for another 6 months
 

Zubz

Banned
Dat Bismuth tho.

They better wake up Bismuth soon, now that the Homeworld return arc has been set in motion.

Ditto, but her VA is way too expensive; they still seem to be reeling from getting Nicki Minaj for Sugilite, & she only exists under precise circumstances. I have a feeling she's just going to be one of those characters/plot points that they should have every reason in the world to free for future situations, but will conveniently "forget" until an episode specifically designated for her so they can write her off again for awhile.
 

Zubz

Banned
They could just get someone else to voice her like they did with Mr. Smiley.

Mr. Smiley felt like a relatively minor character, though. And again, there's not much of a plot reason to bring Sugilite back (I'm surprised they even joked about the situation in "Know Your Fusion"). I feel like Bismuth's already too important of a character to find a reasonable sound alike for.

Plus Uzo was just fantastic.
 

Pluto

Member
Bismuth shouldn't be back, she doesn't deserve another chance! She already got her second chance and blew it, she tried to shatter Steven's gem. She's beyond redemption as far as I'm concerned, she tried to murder an ally/friend because they weren't on board with her ideas. TWICE! How do you come back from that?

Jasper also did some bad things but she considered herself a homeworld gem while fighting the crystal gems i.e. a soldier fighting enemies and her anger at Rose was more justified because she was angry because of something Rose actually did not because they were on the same side but had different ideologies.

Jasper's more worthy of redemption than Bismuth and Jasper's pretty awful.
 
Here's the not so secret secret, guys- everyone's going to get redeemed sooner or later. The idea that someone's past redemption is not one that's compatible with this show's philosophy.
 

Zubz

Banned
Here's the not so secret secret, guys- everyone's going to get redeemed sooner or later. The idea that someone's past redemption is not one that's compatible with this show's philosophy.

Yup. It's kind of funny looking back at how many people didn't think Peridot'd get redeemed after getting stranded on Earth.

... Or that she'd die. That was a common one.
 
Yup. It's kind of funny looking back at how many people didn't think Peridot'd get redeemed after getting stranded on Earth.

... Or that she'd die. That was a common one.
There was one point where she basically seemed like the Gem equivalent of Josef Mengele, and she still got her redemption.

I'm not saying we're going to have Jasper and Bismuth yukking it up at the Barn, but I have zero doubt that they'll both end up on the side of the angels by the end. The only characters I don't feel that confident about are the Diamonds, and even then, maybe.
 

Zubz

Banned
There was one point where she basically seemed like the Gem equivalent of Josef Mengele, and she still got her redemption.

I'm not saying we're going to have Jasper and Bismuth yukking it up at the Barn, but I have zero doubt that they'll both end up on the side of the angels by the end. The only characters I don't feel that confident about are the Diamonds, and even then, maybe.

Blue Diamond probably will. She took pity on Greg, the Zoo-Mans, the Famethyst, & the Rose Quartzes. It may be for the selfish reason of honoring Pink Diamond, but she's protected a lot of good people. The only bad things we've seen of her were being a Galactic Conqueror & sentencing a Ruby to death.

I'm with you on White & Yellow Diamonds being shaky, though.
 

Tizoc

Member
Ah the good ol' days

Also this image is canon or fanmade?
F0Q4yl2.jpg
 

L95

Member
Ah the good ol' days


Also this image is canon or fanmade?

Fanmade, they edited/redrew the diamond murals together. (They removed the texturing, altered the lighting, and Pink diamond's hand/planet is incorrect, though otherwise they're like the murals appearing in the show)
 
I'd like to think that there will be nuance and by the end Steven has to accept that not everyone is redeemable.

It's good for kids to know that there is redemption and you can forgive... but Trump is president.
 
Bismuth shouldn't be back, she doesn't deserve another chance! She already got her second chance and blew it, she tried to shatter Steven's gem. She's beyond redemption as far as I'm concerned, she tried to murder an ally/friend because they weren't on board with her ideas. TWICE! How do you come back from that?

Jasper also did some bad things but she considered herself a homeworld gem while fighting the crystal gems i.e. a soldier fighting enemies and her anger at Rose was more justified because she was angry because of something Rose actually did not because they were on the same side but had different ideologies.

Jasper's more worthy of redemption than Bismuth and Jasper's pretty awful.

Bismuth is likely to make one last appearance, which will probably be where she's redeemed in some way. Like it or not, in SU everyone gets a shot at redemption. Steven shall surpass his mother with his ability being a selfless person, always willing to help another, regardless if they're friend or foe.
 
Yes, if "everyone" gets redeemed, that is bad writing, even if it's "the philosophy of the show'. That is not believable. And Steven Universe has been mostly about believable character development. It would be a shame if they abandoned their believable and compelling character development in favor of platitudes.

Now, who should or shouldn't be "redeemed" is a bit more complicated.

I hope Jasper is not among the saved. Many of the people asking for her redemption have not really taken into account Lapis' potential feelings about this. She was coerced into fusing by this gem. Why on earth should the gems then welcome her abuser back into their fold?

Lapis defended herself and her act of containing Malachite was morally good. What she did, in reaction to the aggression of Jasper, cannot be compared to what Jasper tried to do to the CGs and to Lapis herself.

On the other hand, I think Bismuth deserves a second chance, especially after the revelations about Rose Quartz. Keep in mind this isn't just Rose's hypocrisy; Garnet and Pearl also knew about Pink Diamond and they themselves probably shattered some gems of their own during the war. Whether it is moral to shatter in some situations is a complicated question that Steven shut down unconvincingly. I think Bismuth's reaction was understandable given everything that the CGs lost and given how Rose had treated her.
 

caliph95

Member
Yes, if "everyone" gets redeemed, that is bad writing, even if it's "the philosophy of the show'. That is not believable. And Steven Universe has been mostly about believable character development. It would be a shame if they abandoned their believable and compelling character development in favor of platitudes.

Now, who should or shouldn't be "redeemed" is a bit more complicated.

I hope Jasper is not among the saved. Many of the people asking for her redemption have not really taken into account Lapis' potential feelings about this. She was coerced into fusing by this gem. Why on earth should the gems then welcome her abuser back into their fold?

Lapis defended herself and her act of containing Malachite was morally good. What she did, in reaction to the aggression of Jasper, cannot be compared to what Jasper tried to do to the CGs and to Lapis herself.

On the other hand, I think Bismuth deserves a second chance, especially after the revelations about Rose Quartz. Keep in mind this isn't just Rose's hypocrisy; Garnet and Pearl also knew about Pink Diamond and they themselves probably shattered some gems of their own during the war. Whether it is moral to shatter in some situations is a complicated question that Steven shut down unconvincingly. I think Bismuth's reaction was understandable given everything that the CGs lost and given how Rose had treated her.
Otherwise we get Naruto Shppuden and we probably it don't want that
 
Lapis defended herself and her act of containing Malachite was morally good.

Errr...huh?
No.
Lapis wasn't some sweet little defenseless damsel with no agency in the matter.
She willingly fused with Jasper in order to torture and control her; she mentally abused this gem for months at the bottom of a deep dark ocean, holding her against her will all while taking a sadistic pleasure in the whole ordeal. She could've said "no" on the beach and helped the CGs quadrupedal team a weakened Jasper, but nope. All she wanted was to enact her petty revenge scheme.
Her motives for trapping Jasper were mostly selfish, hateful, and vindictive. Saving Steven (and only Steven. Not his friends, not his home, or his family. None of the other things he loved) was an after thought.
I mean...Lapis pretty much admits to all of this in Alone at Sea, she recognizes how awful she is for missing the ability to slap Jasper around and chip away at her sanity.
She misses being able to be another gem's cage; she misses being able to dominate another living being.
That was the big important internal conflict of the episode for goodness sake, her coming to grips with this and admitting it to Steven (which he annoyingly glosses over for no good reason...).
With all this in mind, How in the world is Jasper some irredeemable abusive monster who shouldn't be given a chance? Why do Jasper's awful deeds count as uniquely evil but Lapis' don't?
The worse she ever did to Lapis was grab her arm a couple of times and throw her in jail for being an unabashed liar on a sensitive mission.
 

Pluto

Member
Errr...huh?
No.
Lapis wasn't some sweet little defenseless damsel with no agency in the matter.
She willingly fused with Jasper in order to torture and control her; she mentally abused this gem for months at the bottom of a deep dark ocean, holding her against her will all while taking a sadistic pleasure in the whole ordeal. She could've said "no" on the beach and helped the CGs quadrupedal team a weakened Jasper, but nope. All she wanted was to enact her petty revenge scheme.
Her motives for trapping Jasper were mostly selfish, hateful, and vindictive. Saving Steven (and only Steven. Not his friends, not his home, or his family. None of the other things he loved) was an after thought.
I mean...Lapis pretty much admits to all of this in Alone at Sea, she recognizes how awful she is for missing the ability to slap Jasper around and chip away at her sanity.
She misses being able to be another gem's cage; she misses being able to dominate another living being.
That was the big important internal conflict of the episode for goodness sake, her coming to grips with this and admitting it to Steven (which he annoyingly glosses over for no good reason...).
With all this in mind, How in the world is Jasper some irredeemable abusive monster who shouldn't be given a chance? Why do Jasper's awful deeds count as uniquely evil but Lapis' don't?
The worse she ever did to Lapis was grab her arm a couple of times and throw her in jail for being an unabashed liar on a sensitive mission.
I totally agree and I think it's kind of laughable to call Jasper Lapis' abuser when Jasper was clearly the victim!
Like you said Jasper didn't coerce Lapis into fusing, Jasper tried to convince her to fuse and Lapis agreed when there was no need to do it to defeat Jasper. On the beach Jasper knew she had lost, Garnet had already beaten her, the ship was destroyed and now she faced Garnet, Amethyst, Pearl AND Rose (from her point of view). This is why she wanted to fuse in the first place and if Lapis had said no that would have been it, with the ocean right there Lapis alone could have probably one shotted Jasper, she posed no real threat in that moment.

I don't understand why so many people view Lapis as a poor victim of Jasper when Lapis herself acknowledges the awfulness of what she did! She trapped Jasper in a fusion and then abused her until she liked it. Before this Jasper considered fusion a short term battle tactic (which isn't wrong looking at how the rubies use it), after her experience as Malachite Jasper now craves fusion but has a completely warped sense of what it's supposed to be like and Lapis is responsible for that.

Jasper deserves to be healed from corruption and when it comes to her possible redemption no one should give a rat's ass about Lapis' feelings in that matter.
 

Psxphile

Member
Sorry for the bump but I liked this too much to ignore.

tumblr_onhqxt6n791tbjbilo1_1280.jpg


I think the only reason we don't see Jasp in promos is because she hangs out all the time by the incinerator with Y!Diamond chewing cigarette bubble gums trying to look tough.

Also, Hilary Florido's promos are one of my faves! :D
source

EDIT: just saw a weird commercial on CN. Seems they have something planned for April Fool's Day, but are keeping mum on the subject. That jives well with a recent schedule leak that shows that the entirety of April 1st is completely blank. What are they up to...? Steven was one of the characters featured in the promo.

EDIT: Hori's subtle shout-out to SU
 
I totally agree and I think it's kind of laughable to call Jasper Lapis' abuser when Jasper was clearly the victim!
Like you said Jasper didn't coerce Lapis into fusing, Jasper tried to convince her to fuse and Lapis agreed when there was no need to do it to defeat Jasper. On the beach Jasper knew she had lost, Garnet had already beaten her, the ship was destroyed and now she faced Garnet, Amethyst, Pearl AND Rose (from her point of view). This is why she wanted to fuse in the first place and if Lapis had said no that would have been it, with the ocean right there Lapis alone could have probably one shotted Jasper, she posed no real threat in that moment.

I don't understand why so many people view Lapis as a poor victim of Jasper when Lapis herself acknowledges the awfulness of what she did! She trapped Jasper in a fusion and then abused her until she liked it. Before this Jasper considered fusion a short term battle tactic (which isn't wrong looking at how the rubies use it), after her experience as Malachite Jasper now craves fusion but has a completely warped sense of what it's supposed to be like and Lapis is responsible for that.

Jasper deserves to be healed from corruption and when it comes to her possible redemption no one should give a rat's ass about Lapis' feelings in that matter.

Errr...huh?
No.
Lapis wasn't some sweet little defenseless damsel with no agency in the matter.
She willingly fused with Jasper in order to torture and control her; she mentally abused this gem for months at the bottom of a deep dark ocean, holding her against her will all while taking a sadistic pleasure in the whole ordeal. She could've said "no" on the beach and helped the CGs quadrupedal team a weakened Jasper, but nope. All she wanted was to enact her petty revenge scheme.
Her motives for trapping Jasper were mostly selfish, hateful, and vindictive. Saving Steven (and only Steven. Not his friends, not his home, or his family. None of the other things he loved) was an after thought.
I mean...Lapis pretty much admits to all of this in Alone at Sea, she recognizes how awful she is for missing the ability to slap Jasper around and chip away at her sanity.
She misses being able to be another gem's cage; she misses being able to dominate another living being.
That was the big important internal conflict of the episode for goodness sake, her coming to grips with this and admitting it to Steven (which he annoyingly glosses over for no good reason...).
With all this in mind, How in the world is Jasper some irredeemable abusive monster who shouldn't be given a chance? Why do Jasper's awful deeds count as uniquely evil but Lapis' don't?
The worse she ever did to Lapis was grab her arm a couple of times and throw her in jail for being an unabashed liar on a sensitive mission.


Yes, Lapis enjoyed hurting Jasper.

Usually, people aren't 100 percent victims or abusers. That's true and that's what Alone at Sea gets at. But what is the context?

The context is that Lapis enjoyed hurting the high-ranking and physically powerful gem who wanted to hurt her friend, threatened her, wanted to report her to the totalitarian authorities, and yes, coerced her into fusion. Physically restraining the person is coercion. I don't feel sorry for Jasper in that context or her sob story about her dead dictator mommy and the immoral regime she oversaw.

Secondly, it is far from clear that Jasper was defeated when the ship crashed. She was weakened, sure. But remember that Garnet herself barely beat her before; all three CGs failed when Jasper first arrived. Why couldn't that happen again? After all, Jasper appears to be a legendary soldier to HW. Jasper as a gem species is built to fight. Even if it was possible for all four of them to take Jasper down, that presented some uncertainty that was diminished by Lapis acting covertly. You don't have to have perfectly pure reasons to do something good. Lapis protected her friend and got some revenge on someone who kidnapped her and tried to violate her. There may have been other resolutions to the conflict that were possible. But what happened to Jasper must be put into context by what she did to Lapis and what she tried to do to the CGs (which, by the way, includes attempting to shatter Amethyst after poofing her in Crack the Whip).

I'm not saying that being attacked gives you carte blanche to do whatever you want to the people you perceive that injured you. But what Lapis did is hardly unreasonable given the situation and given what happened to her.

That is all enough to call into question whether the CGs should give her a chance, especially given Lapis' experience. If Steven does try to give Jasper a chance, as is likely to happen because Steven remains naive, I would hope that Lapis intervenes. Perhaps Jasper should be repoofed and rebubbled or Lapis should attempt to shatter her. Maybe there are more creative solutions like harnessing Jasper's power to power a gem artifact.

The point being that in bringing these other gems into his family, Steven should take care to respect their feelings too, even if they clash with his ideals. There is no reason that he should be the one deciding the fate of all these gems. Governance should be shared. In the absence of any formal rules or process, I hope Lapis and those gems that sympathize with her defend her interests.
 
Given Lapis's trauma over being trapped in the mirror, the idea that they would look to deliberately do the same to Jasper is absolutely monstrous. Whatever Jasper's crimes, the idea that they should completely and permanently remove her bodily autonomy is terrible, Lapis or no Lapis.
 
Lol. Yes, I was mostly hamming it up and thinking aloud with that and when I mentioned Lapis should shatter her. I think there are many ways they can or should handle the Lapis and Jasper arc beyond redemption of a person who I don't think deserves it.

I think the anger of trauma should be explored even further. When people are hurt, sometimes they like hurting the person who attacked them. Sometimes they lust for it. Is there an acceptable outlet for this feeling? When does it go too far and what should other people do when the victim starts looking more like the abuser? Someone mentioned that Steven overlooked this with Lapis. I think that's true, even if I think Lapis' actions are more defensible than others might think. But I think this conversation needs to happen more clearly.

I also think this all gets at what made Bismuth such a compelling character. For the entirety of the show, Steven and the Gems have called the shots. Bismuth, so far, has been the only person to really rattle this assumed hierarchy by taking Steven on herself and taking on Rose before that. Why should Rose, Steven, or Garnet be the leaders when their leadership has led to the death and corruption of so many of their friends (and in Steven's case, a sort of apologism for those consequences)? It's like a rebellion within the rebellion. Bismuth is the most relevant gem for this topic thus far. But Lapis potentially disagreeing with Steven's hopes for Jasper could be another, especially if Lapis does something Steven perceives "out of line". Who defines that line and why? What do you do when someone crosses it? Maybe Steven giving Jasper a chance is "out of line".

What happens when some of these personal conflicts the gems have had extend beyond their inner circle and into how they deal with homeworld?

I think how the CGs should be governed is an interesting question with many potential applications. And personally, I think this question of governance would be a great way to connect the Gem story to the human stories. In human society, we have states with laws, norms, politics, culture, etc. That's how we coordinate our behavior and address disagreement. What would happen if the government or populace in Steven Universe decided to become more involved in Gem affairs? After all, it's their planet, too; they recently got alien visitors; and gem fusion monsters have been running around causing havoc. What if the humans want to take a different approach to Homeworld than the CGs? Who are Steven and the CGs to disagree with them? And if there are disagreements and the CGs do things the humans are unhappy what are the consequences? What if the humans disagree, as is realistic, between each other and Steven and the Gems are forced to play politics? There is a lot of potential there beyond what they've done so far.
 
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