Mikey Jr.
Member
This Sunday actually.
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Easy Allies |OT3| "That sounds like the GameTrailers guy!"
- Thread starter Auctopus
- Start date
This Sunday actually.
Don't really get why Ben was fuming like that in the beginning of Frame Trap. Most of it seemed to be self inflicted -- getting worked up over rumours rather than the game itself, him saying he had only put an hour into the game made that whole rant sound extra dumb. If I'd want to play the game I'd just grab whichever version was most convenient to get, ignore the lootboxes, play the game and judge the game based on that.
I get that it's a video games podcast but maybe take a step back and get some perspective...and maybe take a break from those places where you heard those rumours from too.
I get that it's a video games podcast but maybe take a step back and get some perspective...and maybe take a break from those places where you heard those rumours from too.
It seemed like a more general rant about LootBoxes, with SoW being just a jump off point.
Primethius
Banned
Because it was about lootboxes rather than SoW itself.
It came off more like him having just read an extra spicy twitter chain or neogaf thread about that topic and having gotten in the mood to grab some pitchforks and go "won't someone think of the children!"
Providing a review copy or having an event that doesn't cover IAPs much would also sort of reaffirm that the game is standing on its own and that the IAPs are purely optional.
Elfforkusu
Member
Totally disagree
"Get some perspective" (which I read as "this isn't actually important so why are you taking it seriously") is how we've gotten into this mess to begin with. Gambling addiction ruins real lives, duder
sleepwalkcapsules
Member
You missed the point.
The whole thing was how pervasive this monetization schemes are getting that these rumors are starting to sound like something that could reasonably happen. Things are getting so bad that we can't automatically dismiss something that seems too awful.
Even if we never buy into any microtransaction and always get the base version... these things are now part of our thoughts and considerations.
The horror.
This Sunday is "next week", Sunday = Start of the week in multiple countries.
Primethius
Banned
Yea, if you don't care about microtransactions infesting full price games, that's fine.
But it's not crazy to think that some gamers don't particularly care for anti-consumer, pro-publisher profiting nonsense.
Uno Venova
Banned
Great discussion.
LiquidSolid
Member
lol. Great way to undermine your own argument.
The horror.
Alright, let's try to use reasoning.
Developers more and more often have to include microtransactions into their videogames.
They do not do this because they believe it'll be an engaging, rewarding experience for consumers, they do it because of commercial interests that rely entirely on gambling mechanics. If it were for the user's enjoyment, money wouldn't be necessary.
They are therefore pushing into their game a component that is not built to improve the game in any way, but solely to make money. Is that component necessary to beat or enjoy the game? Do they force the consumer to partake? Not quite yet. It matters less that they don't force you than it does that they still are trying to get you involved in gambling mechanics that require real-world money.
The whole issue could be summarized thusly: videogame companies are increasingly subjecting their audience to money-grabbing, addictive gimmicks and skewing their games to steer users towards these. 2K17 is of course the worst offender lately.
It doesn't matter that you've never bought in. It doesn't matter that Jones finished Shadow of War without buying a single loot box (then again, Jones loves grinding. Would a less...dedicated player not mind the grind? Not sure).
It matters though that games are increasingly designed not to be products bought by consumers for their enjoyments but services through which companies can durably exploit consumers.
Not even mentioning that fact that in many, many countries gambling for real money is illegal, often for minors, sometimes period.
Ben's anger is justified simply for that, but even if you need to pinpoint it to Shadow of War, you can still see sense in what he said: it's not ok that now, when buying a game, consumers have to check whether such or such game activity will cost them more money, and does this game still play well if they don't shell out more. It doesn't sound crazy to me that you'd get annoyed at this.
Mikey Jr.
Member
Not in my world dammit.
I learned this only recently. Blew my mind, I didnt want to believe. I still dont, really.
You're making all sorts of bold claims, lol. In the end it's still just a flavor of the month outrage topic for games media that will be forgotten about come Odyssey, Ben is just catching the tail end of it...which makes it all the more uninteresting. Bosman and Brad seemed rather indifferent about it too, I imagine it's not very important to the majority of people who buy and play games as it's not invasive to the point that it warrants the kind of reaction Ben had....a reaction based on rumours that turned out to be not true.
Grayfox341
Member
Hey man, if you didn't like the rant that's fine, but I think you're really selling the talk short. It was not just a "hey let's be outraged". I tried to talk about a topic that I actually feel is a genuine problem bringing up personal perspectives, a history of how transactions changed over time, and how it's ludicrous the byzantine things people have to try to understand when purchasing a game.
I feel like I often push your buttons a lot Visceir, for whatever reason, and I'm not trying to. But to say that discussion wasn't genuine is untrue.
Don't you think that it sounds unfair and exceptionally cynical to roll your eyes and go "you're just capitalizing on flavor of the month" or "just reading NeoGAF". That's really, really easy to do. To make that kind of argument. I think it's much, much harder to actually take the argument at face value and consider what it's saying.
Shadow of War wasn't really the point, either? I feel like we talked about Battlefront II much more and to me is the more dramatic issue.
N° 2048
Member
There's a bunch of regulars in this thread who constantly whine at everything. Don't let it get to you
Brock Reiher
Banned
The larger point is that video game companies are using every manipulative psychological trick in the book to take money from you at every turn. Even if you ignore the loot boxes, they plant those seeds so you feel like you're missing out (which is the whole reason they do it). Blaming the player for feeling what game companies want you to feel instead of the game companies themselves seems messed up. It's like arguing that those Flintstones cigarette ads should still be shown on TV because kids could just ignore it if they wanted to.
And thinking it's manufactured outrage is pretty insulting.
LiquidSolid
Member
Would you describe the reaction as a "fart in the wind"?
uomoartificiale
Member
Thanks for taking the time to say the right things. Don't let the negativity get to you, in the previous pages there is a lot of positive reactions to that discussion.
I don't think I'm making bold claims no, this is what microtransactions applied to lootboxes are: randomized prizes for money, so...gambling. They are not gameplay mechanics built for the game's quality but for monetary purpose - what's the point of money and randomness if not that?
Microtransactions have been an "outrage topic" for a long time now. The fact that games are increasingly skewed towards them outside of mobile gaming (as Ben pointed out) is cause for concern. If game media or consumers forget about it come the end of the month (or the next lootbox-free blockbuster wink wink) is more telling about us all having a short / selective memory than it is about the value of the outrage itself.
Brad seemed indeed quite indifferent to it. I can't read Brad much, he seems indifferent to most topics to me because of that. Kyle though did realize that yeah even he had a line, and even before that line got reached, he would be gutted to see a game he enjoyed leaning hard on those practices. But your point stands: maybe it's not that important to all gamers, sure. Does it make it less of a relevant topic or an issue? I don't think so, it's more than fine to discuss something that is problematic before it annoys even more people. Even Kyle, whom you found uninterested, did say he found the backlash powerful and interesting enough that lootbox now is a bad word. He encouraged it.
Finally, as you're still homing on the Shadow of War rumor that was "not true", it's not the point. That some players felt that they needed to either grind or pay for troops to get the true ending is concerning. The fact that Ben had to check whether or not that was true because it was after all plausible is reason enough to be wary of systems that are, again, put in place only to continuously make revenue out of products already purchased by increasingly wary consumers, who now often enough already had to pick between various tiers of purchase etc...
If you don't like that people get annoyed at things you don't care about, sure. That you can't see their point because you can't get to the same emotional level as them is...well, your loss.
Grayfox341
Member
Absolutely and that's a good point. There have been many positive reactions. And I don't want people to feel like they can't voice their concerns. I just personally think that responding is good. I hope to further the conversation.
Looking forward to it!
Earthpainting
Member
Yeah, that got me good. Fun episode in general.
So wrong. This topic has a huge influence on the very core of game design.
SecondCitySaint
Member
Kyle's Joker/Mandarin voice is cracking me up everytime.
I'm only 20 minutes in but I hope HOPE he slips in a GAH somewhere. It needs to happen sometime on TTE.
I'm only 20 minutes in but I hope HOPE he slips in a GAH somewhere. It needs to happen sometime on TTE.
TheDarkKnight774
Member
That TTE was crazy fun. People that like Fiasconauts or one a fun 1hour one off check it out.
That ending. So
that was my take on it.
That ending. So
Kyle made his character Pepe right?
ThanksVision
Member
The point Ben was making is that these practices have steadily gotten worse and worse over time. We have come a long way since horse armor. I actually remember John Davison pondering around the time of that Oblivion DLC debacle that one day we might have the option of paying real money to beat a boss or level. He was so right. And so is Ben in this episode. This stuff is starting to creep into games in a really unnerving way, and I am glad people with influence are speaking up about it.
Bloodworth
Member
The original pitch and the funding update here.
https://www.patreon.com/posts/new-patreon-goal-11264314
https://www.patreon.com/posts/box-peek-funded-11532476
Mikey Jr.
Member
nvm
Just a few Patreon posts about it so far:
Original Announcment
Funded Announcement
"Delay" Announcement
The desktop site and mobile/android app do have a search function, that's how I found the "delay" one (just googled the other two).
Mikey Jr.
Member
On the desktop site.
Please tell me how.
edit: Nevermind. I got confused with the search bar. I put in box peek, and the first searches were some other Patreon. Didn't know it filtered them at the bottom.
Apologies.
TheCowboyPoet
Member
Ben, have you had a chance to check out the new Courtney Barnett and Kurt Vile album? I recall you mentioning CB's last record on Frame Trap sometime last year. I think you'll like their collaboration, it's all about good vibes.
I finally came to terms with the fact that I'm probably never going to play Resident Evil 5, so I watched Brad and Huber's playthrough of it, as well as the DLC. I'm pretty confident that I made the right decision; I don't think I would've enjoyed playing the game as much as I did watching it. It was pretty fun.
I did watch parts of their RE6 playthrough when it happened live as well, but I never watched the whole thing, so I might watch all of that some time in the near future, too.
I also watched GT's reaction to the reveal of Umbrella Corps. I think it's one of their best reactions. And the build-up to the reveal is even funnier in retrospect.
I did watch parts of their RE6 playthrough when it happened live as well, but I never watched the whole thing, so I might watch all of that some time in the near future, too.
I also watched GT's reaction to the reveal of Umbrella Corps. I think it's one of their best reactions. And the build-up to the reveal is even funnier in retrospect.
LegendOfGood
Member
Does anyone else have issues with the Patron RSS feed? I am using the Overcast app on iOS and sometimes the podcasts show up late. Still haven't seen this week's ep pop.
plasmawave
Banned
Jigarbov is the best.
Adam_Roman
Member
I've been watching Ben play Thousand Year Door and he says in part 5 that he's gonna show Huber the Bowser stuff on the next group stream. Did that ever happen, and if it did what video was it in?